I dont mean to bring up John 3:16 again...but the part "shall not perish, but have everlasting life" caught my attention. Because if the greek word aionios or whatever, does not denote "unending" in passages talked about Hell than what does it mean in regards to "everlasting" and "eternal" life, or passages about Heaven? Just because Hell is excused from being eternal is somehow Heaven not?
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, just something Ive been thinking about.
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 26, 2009, 04:50:21 PM
I dont mean to bring up John 3:16 again...but the part "shall not perish, but have everlasting life" caught my attention. Because if the greek word aionios or whatever, does not denote "unending" in passages talked about Hell than what does it mean in regards to "everlasting" and "eternal" life, or passages about Heaven? Just because Hell is excused from being eternal is somehow Heaven not?
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, just something Ive been thinking about.
One verse in the bible is not enough to form such a conclusion in the first place. Search for the word immortality for one.
Secondly if our life in the bible is depicted as going through cycles of time, then rendering a verse saying "age bearing life" does not mean our life will end. God says he will make a new heaven and a new earth, so we are still subject to a life that cycles in ages of time.
When the bible talks about the end of the ages it is immortality that can be seen to convey the literal truth of our existance. And in the meantime the literal truth may be ages of time up to that point, the "perception" we have of how things "seem" is that they are everlasting.
Based on what I'm about to say, I'm tempted to expand my John 17 definition of aionion life from simply the knowledge of God and of His Son Jesus Christ to include divine healing, but I want to run it by some other Scriptures first in my meditation time and see if I've got the "out of the mouth of two or three witnesses" on that since many Christians choke on God still performing His Word today in miraculous ways beyond just in the New Birth or in eschatological terms.
This passage of Scripture has unfortunately been misunderstood, misinterpreted, and misapplied by Christians for decades and even for centuries. John 3:16 was Jesus's statement after the serpent on the pole passage from the Torah was brought up (John 3:14) and the serpent on the pole wasn't placed where the Old Testament Israelites could see it to deal with anybody's "eternity." It was to bring healing to their bodies. It's sole purpose was medicinal for their bodies. This chapter of John's Gospel gives us another condemnation passage like 1Corinthians 11 where the context of the "condemnation" for not rightly discerning the Gospel winds up being sickness, disease, and bodily death -- not damnation and being in the lake of fire for all of eternity, which would be contrary to all of the Scriptures that say that Christ has taken away the sin of the whole world (John 1:29; Colossians 1:15-20; 1Timothy 2:6; 1John 2:1-2).
John 3:16 is about Jesus's healing ministry for the physical body. Nicodemus wasn't asking about going to heaven. He was saying to Jesus that He had to be from God because of all of the miracles. And Jesus was being affirming towards him that he couldn't even perceive God at work in Jesus UNLESS he'd been "born again," even if he didn't know what to call it or what was going on in himself. Nicodemus was saying that "there's a lot going on in Your life, Jesus, that can only be from God." And Jesus was turning the tables on him and saying, "Nicodemus, there's a lot going on in your life that can only be from God, or you wouldn't even be able to recognize God at work."
In that context, because Nicodemus was evidently asking about the miracles, the healings, etc., Jesus said, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him (like the women with the issue of blood) should not perish, but have eonian life." He didn't mean perish for the age, but perish from the age with all of the prevalent illnesses, economic hardships, and politics that were going on in that era. He may have even been saying, "Nick, I can even touch what's been going on in your body -- that chest pain, that indigestion, or whatever -- if you believe that God has sent Me to you as well. You don't have to die of this 'cause Father sent Me."
John 3:16 is a healing verse [contextually] and not a "turn or burn" passage. It's a Matthew 8:17; Romans 8:11; 1Peter 2:24 type of passage.
Hmm, but if the "perish" only relates to our physical bodies, why is the "everlasting life" relating to our spiritual bodies? Why would he switch between talking about two different things in the same sentence? or am I missing what your saying alltogehter(more than likely, lol).
Im going to throw this out there and Im hoping Im wrong, but what if Jesus talking about "heaven" and "everlasting life" was only in terms of the physical as well as more of a state of "oneness" with God here on earth...what if he wasnt even talking about life after death? since were saying hes not in the "perish" part or in some other parts that denote seperation...maybe he doesnt in the heaven verses either.
id look up more verses to show what im talking about but im at school right now so thats all I got lol
if aeonian life is the life of the future ages and after the ages there is no more death, then aeonian life is eternal life, but aeonian punishment is punishment of the ages and it ends after the ages.
the bible says believers resurect immortal, even unbelievers might get aeonian life, the Judgement in Matthew 25 is not about believers and unbelievers but good-doers and evil-doers, so their aeonian life might be considered not eternal in this case, Isaiah 65,20 might refer to unbelievers who got aeonian life in the age to come:
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
I am so confused lol
Hi Ninja,
Lets try to dispell some of that confusion.
From the view point of eternal hell, John 3:!6 is applied in this general manner.
"God loved the world and sent his son so that you have the opportunity to choose to accept Jesus and gain everlasting life before you die, if you do not choose to believe then you go to hell for eternity"
Now, in trying to help you, let me ask. From what you have been subject to as far as teaching opposite of UR is the above phrase pretty close to how John 3:16 has been taught to you?
If not, lets start at what you have been told John 3:16 means when it comes to applying it to heaven and hell.
Let me know.
yeah that pretty much sums it up
Quote
"God loved the world and sent his son so that you have the opportunity to choose to accept Jesus and gain everlasting life before you die, if you do not choose to believe then you go to hell for eternity"
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 27, 2009, 05:28:58 AM
yeah that pretty much sums it up
Ok, first off lets recognize that the phrase above isn't even close to the wording of John 3:16. And I realize that we can paraphrase a concept that one verse is a part of so I am not trying to just word compare here to make a point. But lets take the phrase above and see if John 3:16 can actually fit.
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 3:16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian.
I posted two translations just to help emphasize that perish / perishing is in either one.
So, let me ask if you can start to see a problem with what you have been "told" here.
The verse implies that whoever is not believe might perish, right? So, if someone is going to go to hell forever for not believing, being aware of their condition, how is that perishing?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 27, 2009, 05:46:53 AM
So, if someone is going to go to hell forever for not believing, being aware of their condition, how is that perishing?
Im sorry but I dont understand what your asking(idk why I just cant comprehend wordings today)
are you saying that if people know their perishing, than how are they perishing? :dontknow:
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 27, 2009, 06:14:17 AM
are you saying that if people know their perishing, than how are they perishing? :dontknow:
I answered this then decided that maybe is not quite the right answer. So sorry ninja if you read my other message before I removed it.
So let me rephrase.
How is someone staying alive forever in an eternal hell equal to perishing for not believing?
hmmm not sure
I guess it all depends on what Jesus meant by "perish"
622 Perish. Apollumi
Meaning: 1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose
Some sound like a form of being destroyed/dead. So not endless.
Some can be everlasting. Ruined for example.
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 27, 2009, 05:57:48 PM
hmmm not sure
I guess it all depends on what Jesus meant by "perish"
Correct, so, put aside what you have been told, look at your heart, what do YOU think?
maybe their lives will not get messed up by the sinful ways of the world, but be on a path of true life that will be, spiritually speaking, everlasting
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 27, 2009, 06:58:22 PM
maybe their lives will not get messed up by the sinful ways of the world, but be on a path of true life that will be, spiritually speaking, everlasting
Not bad, not bad at all. :)
As WhiteWings pointed out, Perish is from the greek word Apollumi which means: perish, destory, or lose.
Also note this verse:
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost [apollumi].
So if we don't believe in Jesus, we are "apollumi", but on the other handJesus came to seek and save the "apollumi".
Will people be in unbelief forever, thus being in a state of "apollumi" forever? Will Jesus not seek and save the "apollumi"?
Eventually Jesus will save all of the "apollumi" and everyone will believe.
Legoman
Is it correct if I simplify it as follows.
People are split up in two groups:
- Life
- Perish
After a certain time the groups are merged again; and all enter the last and eternal phase of happiness/being with God.
i would say so as well, life and death
resurection of life
resurection of judgment -> punishment and afterwards (second) death
last enemy = death abolished, all allive - God all in all
I think the thing that bothers me THE MOST, especailly when it comes to UR...is if the chruch at large really has misinterpreted such a concept as there being "eternal torture" than what ELSE has the church at large fudged up? That cant be the only thing, and that being you know...kindof a huge thing if not the hugest what other huge things have we been taught wrong.
and that in general, shakes my faith sadly
i don't want to sound like a Jehova Withness who criticises mainstream christianity all the way, but do you think God wanted the Pope, the inquisition, huge church buildings etc.?
No offense Ninja, but your faith should be shaken if it's the church you believe. The Church is not our Savior.
Well said Sven.
I think many inside the church where just as powerhungry than the heritics/atheist outside the church.
Fear sells. Good feelings don't. It's not for nothing that many ETs say that when UR is true everything gets out of control because people can sin and still enter heaven. So no need for church. And no cash for the pope :winkgrin:
Quote from: sven on January 28, 2009, 08:19:27 PM
i don't want to sound like a Jehova Withness who criticises mainstream christianity all the way, but do you think God wanted the Pope, the inquisition, huge church buildings etc.?
Hmm, that is a good point...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 28, 2009, 08:20:11 PM
No offense Ninja, but your faith should be shaken if it's the church you believe. The Church is not our Savior.
I know this, but if it wasnt for the church we wouldnt even know about our savior. My faith is not in the church, but in God. The problem is, if what I can know about God and Christianity is pretty much all channeled through the chruch and the Bible they cannonized...and their system has so many fudgeups...how can I deem what is from God and what isnt?
Hey Ninja,
These verses may shed some light:
1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
God's truths are foolishness to the world. The wisdom of the world is foolishness - this includes what the church teaches. Yet God uses that foolishness to bring people to him! :grin:
God likes to work in a roundabout way, it appears...
Legoman
I suppose thats one way of looking at it.
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 28, 2009, 09:37:55 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 28, 2009, 08:20:11 PM
No offense Ninja, but your faith should be shaken if it's the church you believe. The Church is not our Savior.
I know this, but if it wasnt for the church we wouldnt even know about our savior.
I have to disagree with that, but in no offense to the difficulties you see present. The church that you are referring too is a man invented organization. The Church of Jesus Christ is spiritual and nothing physical is required. I knew of Jesus before I could have uttered those physical words. The church you refer to beat it out of me and replaced it with their version.
That may not help you, but it is the truth in my life.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 28, 2009, 11:24:59 PM
I knew of Jesus before I could have uttered those physical words.
what do you mean by that
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 28, 2009, 11:34:11 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 28, 2009, 11:24:59 PM
I knew of Jesus before I could have uttered those physical words.
what do you mean by that
It means I had the sense the awareness of something greater than me that gave me comfort. I was very young 3 - 4 years old, I had no way to express with any words that anyone could understand, when I would try I was always corrected to say that I had to accept Jesus.
As I got a little older and could convey my thoughts a bit better I would hear certain things about God and that Jesus was God (not disputing that just making my point here at that age)
So soon this peace and comfort of something I was aware of and accepted was eventually replaced with a God that I came to somewhat despise and believe I could never please or measure up to anyway.
but thats not the goal of christianity or our relationship with God
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 29, 2009, 03:28:03 AM
but thats not the goal of christianity or our relationship with God
Well, thats beside the point of what I was subjected to when I was young "in church".
ah
I think what I get from this is, it's not the goal, but what Paul describes is often the byproduct of what happens when traditions of men replace the purity of the message of Jesus. We've messed it up pretty good, actually. Then I think of God working all according to His will, and realize He's allowed what He's allowed for reasons, and He'll fix it.
I do see what you're saying Ninja about "the churches and how we hear"...however, let's imagine 1500 years ago that the catholic "church" had not gotten hold of and done what they've done to Jesus' message. Let's say they didn't create all these big buildings with steeples, put men in authority that claimed to be the mouthpiece of God and the way for people to communicate with and hear from God; that they didn't continually figure out ways to add to and distort Jesus' message, because His message brought people to Him, not to them and not under their control/influence. After all, they had to line their pockets and "meet their budget". Then, they called all that "church"...and "living for God"...and "you have to do this to keep from going to hell", etc., etc.; to where we are today, that most if not all denominations are offshoots of the church of Rome ("the whore and her daughters?"). That churchianity today is infiltrated with those Romish beliefs, customs, and traditions, and they don't even know it. Because what they do is "church"; it's "having church"..."going to church", and "you need to get back in church"...it's a big part of the norm of "being a good Christian" and "being obedient, living for the Lord".
Now does God use all that? I personally think He does. There's a fellow that used to post here that counted himself to have great knowledge of "the Word". He disagreed with me on this, stating that people who hadn't yet been revealed about UR had not "been reconciled yet to God", that they didn't know Him, in essence, weren't saved. I don't buy it. Many good things have happened in and through dear brothers and sisters still "in the church" that truly love the Lord but continue to be veiled to the traditions of men in churchianity. There are many good, God-fearing, Jesus-loving people there. So can one hear about Jesus there, and come to a saving relationship with Him there? Some say not, but I personally say "absolutely YES!". God can use anything and anyone He chooses for His glory. But.....do I also believe He is lifting a veil for many and showing them things IN HIS WORD, that have been there all the time, but there seems to be a season of His revelation going on? I also say "absolutely YES!". He graciously has shown me some of those things, and spoke to me to "come out of her". I cannot condemn those that are still there. God can use them, they love Him, and He will speak to them His will as He sees fit. We are to "charge and teach those things", but it's up to God to work His will and "bring the increase". I share with others what God has done for/in me, and leave it up to them and God where He leads them. All my friends "go to church". We're still brothers and sisters, but there is naturally (spiritually) still somewhat of a "separation" because of their continuance in orthodoxy and God having called me out. That's uncomfortable, but it's up to God where, who, and how He leads.
OK, enough. I'm out, God's blessing, James.
Jabcat :goodpost:
jabcat,
Great post, that is exactly the way I feel about it as well. :thumbsup:
CHB
Quotemaybe their lives will not get messed up by the sinful ways of the world, but be on a path of true life that will be, spiritually speaking, everlasting
Don't ever forget to complete the thought that Jesus wanted to convey here.
John 3:17
For God sent not the Son into the
world to condemn the world, but that the (same)
world through Him might be saved.
God Bless you!
Appreciated Doc, C, and SW...I'm glad we connected. God's blessing, James.
Quote from: jabcat on January 29, 2009, 08:00:35 AM
Many good things have happened in and through dear brothers and sisters still "in the church" that truly love the Lord but continue to be veiled to the traditions of men in churchianity. There are many good, God-fearing, Jesus-loving people there. So can one hear about Jesus there, and come to a saving relationship with Him there? Some say not, but I personally say "absolutely YES!". God can use anything and anyone He chooses for His glory. But.....do I also believe He is lifting a veil for many and showing them things IN HIS WORD, that have been there all the time, but there seems to be a season of His revelation going on? I also say "absolutely YES!".
I think this was an important thing to admit, and an important thing for people to see.
Whether universalism is true or not, or in what way, i agree with this
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 30, 2009, 05:33:50 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 29, 2009, 08:00:35 AM
Many good things have happened in and through dear brothers and sisters still "in the church" that truly love the Lord but continue to be veiled to the traditions of men in churchianity. There are many good, God-fearing, Jesus-loving people there. So can one hear about Jesus there, and come to a saving relationship with Him there? Some say not, but I personally say "absolutely YES!". God can use anything and anyone He chooses for His glory. But.....do I also believe He is lifting a veil for many and showing them things IN HIS WORD, that have been there all the time, but there seems to be a season of His revelation going on? I also say "absolutely YES!".
I think this was an important thing to admit, and an important thing for people to see.
Whether universalism is true or not, or in what way, i agree with this
This is also confirmed in scripture:
Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?Who is it that does many wonderful works in the Lord's name? Its not the athiests and non-believers of the world. Sure they may do good works, but they don't claim it in the name of God.
No, it is the church of this world that does good works in the name of God. Most churches do many good works - building community, feeding the poor, helping families in need, etc. They even lead people to Christ. These are all good things to do. The churches do them in the name of the Lord.
Yet on that day, many of them (those in the church) will be cast aside because he "never knew" them (Matthew 7:23).
God uses the foolishness of preaching to achieve his purpose and the weak to shame the "wise" (read all of 1 Cor 1).
Legoman
thats still one of the most confusing verses in the Bible to me. What was Jesus actually saying there...that if you dont always understand His will but yet still try and do things for him that your in danger of going to Hell even though you called him "Lord"???
is it simply talking about people that were total hypocrites and though they say they did things for "GOD" were only doing it purley for their motives?
and what does it mean by "away from me I never knew you?", and to where and how long? If Hell is a temporary process or punishment...then well thats still not great but...if its eternal than thats even more sad.
everyone Ive asked, including pastors always give me a different perspective on this verse
Their are many in ET churches who know him. I was apart of such a doctrine for many, many years before God revealed to me the true nature of 'hell'. I loved Him, He spoke to me, and I loved people also. The longer I remain in the doctrine of UR, the less judgmental I become of people who believe otherwise, and I am able to see that they have many spiritual gifts to offer.
Quoteis it simply talking about people that were total hypocrites and though they say they did things for "GOD" were only doing it purely for their motives?
I believe this to be the case. You notice that it was the one cast out that said they did wonderful works, not God.
So do we think someone can cast out devils in their own power? Or would it still be God's power working through them, even though He never knew them and they were still being cast away? I think that's a head-scratcher.
It's all by God's power.
Deuteronomy 13
1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.