no "age of accountability"

[marie glen]

I'm sure this has been brought up - and I don't mean to be coming to the forum and merely posting my random thoughts every once in a while (but for someone who is semi un/self employed, I sure have a lot of  catching up to do after traveling ..and I'm hoping the spirit will allow me to look at the list of discussions here soon!

I'm sure it's been brought up that the "twelve years old, age of accountability" doctrine is not in the bible, but I just had to post about it. Jesus ("the boy Jesus") staying behind at Passover and talking with teachers of the law at the Temple was in my daily readings today. As far as I know this is the only verse which is used to support this doctrine.(?)

But I can't help thinking if et belief and doctrine of "unless reconciliation (faith) occurs before death, one is for ever lost" were truly true, there are no exception clauses to that natural law.. (Since apparently God is unable to do anything about it, it being unavoidable, etc, as the `logic` of the doctrine would go.)

We all know there are a lot more verses than one (discussed here on this forum, for instance) which support Universal Reconciliation as God's Will and Great Plan of Salvation. And I don't think the age of accountability doctrine is the only accepted belief and doctrine which has zero to 1 biblical `support`. Yet UR is so easily dismissed..

:knitting: Take care, God bless!

[Shev]

Amen Marie! This false doctrine is only used to avoid drawing the inevitable conclusions of ET...that it is barbaric towards children also. It makes no sense on any level. Firstly, as terrible as this sounds, it would make abortion an act of salvation, as it would give the baby 100% chance of salvation instead of less than 5%. Secondly, so many youngsters have died before this supposed age of accountability throughout history, that it is very likely that FAR more would be saved through being fortunate enough to die young, than by Christ's sacrifice!

This is yet one more element contributing to the utter absurdity and insanity of the ET doctrine.

[micah7:9]

 :happyclap: Amen

[eaglesway]

There are accounts of mother's who killed their children so they wouldnt grow up and go to hell. And if ET were real, such a woman would be a hero  :doh:.

[Lazarus Short]

Marie Glen, you've made a brilliant connection!  :gimmefive:

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

Amen Marie! This false doctrine is only used to avoid drawing the inevitable conclusions of ET...that it is barbaric towards children also. It makes no sense on any level. Firstly, as terrible as this sounds, it would make abortion an act of salvation, as it would give the baby 100% chance of salvation instead of less than 5%. Secondly, so many youngsters have died before this supposed age of accountability throughout history, that it is very likely that FAR more would be saved through being fortunate enough to die young, than by Christ's sacrifice!

This is yet one more element contributing to the utter absurdity and insanity of the ET doctrine.

:goodpost:

[Msandino]

Noted Bible teacher John Macarthur, who teaches ET, explains why he believes that babies do not go to hell with this interesting reference in 2 Sam 12, when David gets up from his mourning and fasting upon hearing his infant son had died:


2 Sam 12:22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

MacArthur argues that since David was clearly going to be with God, and he knew that his son would be there too, that there is some kind of mercy available for babies. It was quite a stretch, and mostly, I believe, created by a loving pastor who has been faced with believing grieving parents -- what is he supposed to tell them?

But perhaps it has more relevance for UR than for an escape clause for the ETer...

And what do they say about good Jews, anyways? And then Jews now? Unbelievable. And we're twisting things??  :Chinscratch:

[rosered]

Morning  all ,

good posts!!     and thoughts everyone !!!

  When it comes to any ''silly notions ''  mankind has contrived from the scriptures  , we can tell if it  earthly sensual and  devilish ,  because it is always accusing    the brethren[humanity , neighbour as self or  brother  etc . ]   it is the below thinking of the carnal mind  and to be carnally mined it is    death , death ,  and more death !    not the mind of Christ ABOVE  thinking that comes to save   the WORLD   and not destroy  it ... not knowing what manner of ''spirit they are of ...''

Noted Bible teacher John Macarthur, who teaches ET, explains why he believes that babies do not go to hell with this interesting reference in 2 Sam 12, when David gets up from his mourning and fasting upon hearing his infant son had died:


2 Sam 12:22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

MacArthur argues that since David was clearly going to be with God, and he knew that his son would be there too, that there is some kind of mercy available for babies. It was quite a stretch, and mostly, I believe, created by a loving pastor who has been faced with believing grieving parents -- what is he supposed to tell them?

But perhaps it has more relevance for UR than for an escape clause for the ETer...

And what do they say about good Jews, anyways? And then Jews now? Unbelievable. And we're twisting things??  :Chinscratch:

Hi   Martha , finding the  flawed thinking  in this as,  KNOWING  David    saw corruption  , by the scriptures and the baby was conceived in    his sin of killing  Bathsheba's husband   to have her for himself ,   
What right would David than   having to go to heaven   to see his son ??
I see the  failure of the Et   standard in this logic   to even make a case    for the age of accountability  ?  It becomes a  futile  attempt to justify  the means .

   The Jewish  standard of Bar Mitzvah  coming of age ceremonies Bar (בַּר) is a Jewish Babylonian Aramaic word literally meaning "son" (בֵּן), while bat (בַּת) means "daughter" in Hebrew, and mitzvah (מִצְוָה) means "commandment" or "law" (plural: mitzvot). Thus bar mitzvah and bat mitzvah literally translate to "son of commandment" and "daughter of commandment".

Is  by tradition   under the law and  the law of Moses is the ministration of death    and we see Jesus fulfilling the  natural law  as to preaching in the temple at a young age   , and baptism of John   the baptist   than the CROSS .fulfilling all first  etc .. the law of mankind dwelling   with God [first covenant ] mankind broke  till Jesus come  ,   being the Son of mankind , but also   fulfilling the Spiritual   law   of BEING THE SON OF GOD , as loving God first and  loving  everyone as self  in obedience   , to both the  earthly as it is in the heavenly  , [the new covenant ] of God  dwelling with mankind  and making the way for   ALL  by faith   THOUGH HIMSELF ..  in my opinion   Martha   , just my    :2c:  thoughts ..

Very good thoughts Marie !   ,   God bless you all    with more of Him :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

51 Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.
4 Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the [f]innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will [l]be converted to You.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
18 By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

David committed a terrible sin. The Lord dealt with him. Nathan the prophet came in to him and the Lord used Nathan to expose David's heart.

"The word of the Lord is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit...making manifest the thoughts and motives of the heart."

"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

All tru disciples believe forgiveness is received through confession and repentence.

[rosered]

I SO AGREE  JOHN !!, 
ALL  have sinned   and come short of the glory of God ...  there in none rightous not not one ...
  just being  born  , bears the corruptible image of Adam in which all die  , But in Christ ALL  shall be made alive  by the incorruptible Image of Gods son ...   :HeartThrob:

[Ross]

I.M.O accountability could be part of judgment.
When someone is held accountable for what they have done, there must have been some judgment made to bring them to that position.
I.M.O seems to be  that this will happen at an appointed time for each individual- just like coming to court one at a time.
Good news, for me, is that Christ has pointed out what sins/mistakes, self gratification I was doing BEFORE making known the depth of the sacrifice needed to pay for those sins; ergo I was made accountable and found lacking to pay for that, so Christ was ABSOLUTELY necessary to make me pure in God's eyes.
This seems to be the kind of point Paul is making when differing between law and grace; knowing the law made Paul able to fully appreciate the grace.
So the literal age of accountability could well be during the Great White Throne of judgment period.

[TheJason]

Apparently infants are as evil as adults.  However, though, good news that UR gives everyone a chance!

Anyway, the evil of infants isn't so apparent, but older kids often bully, in fact so much, many would avoid them!

[rosered]

Apparently infants are as evil as adults.  However, though, good news that UR gives everyone a chance!

Anyway, the evil of infants isn't so apparent, but older kids often bully, in fact so much, many would avoid them!

  Two different creatures and natures  , being born this way [below ] Adam and being born again  [above] Christ, not everyone  gets too be born again  in the short time  we are considered living   as earthly creatures [but being formed and hidden  like a pregnant woman that carries a  child  , you don't see it   yet or know it  at all ,but it is in there!  ]    in my opinion , but they sure will

  Its not over by a long shot in physical death ...but a  process    with new beginnings and true  nature  as sons of God
  Adam was a son of God in the beginning  in  the   dark and ignorance  of God / compared to being asleep [or in a womb ] in  eating the tree of knowlege of good and evil , but  in Christ  in the Full light and knowledge of God in the end   fully awakened to  a tree of LIFE  that Adam was totally cut off from   while he  learned the hard way by stumbling though  the darkness of his own soul /life   
  lots to learn  and suffer though experiences   to tolerate  all  experiences  of not Knowing the True God  and though  Jesus Christ /Word of truth  we get to experience  GOD when overcoming   the first nature  or beastly one , that runs on its own natural born instincts  or be subjected to (something bad or unpleasant)   sort of  like birthing is   , both rough for  mother and child to get though such horrible  intensified pain .

But when it is done it is a joy  to overcome it . Like overcoming the world is  for everyone born in Adam  to easy to fail  /fall and stumble  in the dark , Till the Light comes on / Jesus Christ is the Light of the world  and gets you  to the end of it with Him showing us  the way out . no one makes it out without Him  , they just cannot realize it yet  , till it happens to them ..

This is a short summary of sorts  in what some learn along the way and share in the Holy Spirit with others  :2c:

Everything done is in Gods  way and Wisdom we just have to learn to trust in that Truth  fully   with the faith /substance He gives us  and keep on asking Him for more of this   ,especially when you know you lack  big time . Developing a stronger bond
of perfection   or completeness  Though the  Word of   GOD / Lord Jesus Christ  as His Own Holy Spirit supplies  it all  for us .

We really cannot do anything of our own selves but fail the tests, when you get tired of stumbling  and hurting than you begin to  learn what the Wisdom of God really means    and it become personal   , till than it is all just a lot of talk  and noise . my  :2c:

[marie glen]

Amen Rose! :thumbsup: :iagree:

Apparently infants are as evil as adults.  However, though, good news that UR gives everyone a chance!

Anyway, the evil of infants isn't so apparent, but older kids often bully, in fact so much, many would avoid them!

Amen! Jesus said He will draw all to Him.. (Jn 12:32) and 1 Tim 4:10 says "God is the savior of all".

..having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. - Ephesians 1:9,10

..and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. - Colossians 1:20

:welcome: TheJason! :hiya: