Matthew 26:24

[seeker411]

The Son of man goes as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

I apologize if this has been brought up.

My question:

If everyone eventually is reconciled to God why would Jesus say this?

Common explanations:

It would have been better for Judas if Jesus was never born. (There would be no reconciliation for Judas or anyone AT ALL if Jesus was never born so the point is Mute for me.)

It would have been better if Judas had never been born.

Its just a hyperbole!

Any other inputs WELCOME! :sigh:

[rosered]

  Hi Seeker 411 ,
do you think Jesus meant
  better Judas had not been born  , in the literal sense or in the spiritual sense ?
  being born  is twice  according to scriptures ?
is this the twice dead  verse that confuses me ???? :sigh: we know Judas ate the feasts with them at the table and there are two accounts of Judas death one by hanging on the tree  and the other falling headlong splling his guts [bowels out ]  cursed is a man who hangs on a tree ?


Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
  I have no answers,,,,  just questions about Judas.the example of a betrayer of Christ who acted as if he was good before men , but in his heart satan  had filled it  not the Lord .. :dontknow:

   He was chosen  to be the devil......... diabolos greek 1228
) prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely

a) a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,

2) metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him


Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

[Craig]

Jesus did these very often. He even said that if anyone causes little ones to stumble that they should commit suicide. Why? Because regardless, though there is no eternal torment, there is still aionios kolasis (eternal punishment). UR doesn't mean we are free from our unrepentant consequences. He who builds his house on the sand will have it washed away.

[Molly]

Is there any coming back from being twice dead?

[WhiteWings]

Craig,

Eternal or age during?

[Craig]

Craig,

Eternal or age during?

Eternal is the english word used as I was referencing Scripture.

It however is neither or both, it is aionios. Aionios is an adjective which means a duration intrinsic to the noun it describes. The word kolasis means corrective punishment, therefore aionios kolasis lasts as long as there needs correction.

[seeker411]

I doesn't really matter which "sense" this expression refers to ...DOES IT?

I take it to be a physical "born"...  Jesus uses the term born again for the spiritual sense does he not?

Jesus also says "Pluck out your eye, Cut off your arm..then go into Gehenna.  Well I know that He spoke in parables and "types and expressions" but the question still begs.

[Craig]

I doesn't really matter which "sense" this expression refers to ...DOES IT?

Judas committed suicide, that shows us how much grief he suffered for his action. Jesus was telling us the weight Judas would feel for his action. Judas didn't know what he was doing, but he felt it. Judas did love Jesus, he thought Jesus was invincible.

[WhiteWings]

Craig,

Eternal or age during?

Eternal is the english word used as I was referencing Scripture.

It however is neither or both, it is aionios. Aionios is an adjective which means a duration intrinsic to the noun it describes. The word kolasis means corrective punishment, therefore aionios kolasis lasts as long as there needs correction.

Clear Craig.
What you wrote is exactly what was my understanding (from one of you previous posts I think)
Stop playing mind games with me!  :laughing7:

Thanks for clearing this one up.

[seeker411]

Interesting thought.  So your saying it was a foreshadowing of his reactions rather than making a direct statement about "Some people would have been better off never being born": cause they may face Unending punishment

[Craig]

Interesting thought.  So your saying it was a foreshadowing of his reactions rather than making a direct statement about "Some people would have been better off never being born": cause they may face Unending punishment

Yes, Jesus understood our emotions and the weight of our actions, he understood that such guilt was almost too much to bear and that it would be better to have been born for the one who commits the action.

Believe it or not, Judas loved Jesus, he was one of the twelve but he loved money as well. Jesus warned many times you cannot serve money and God, and that those who chose money would not take part in the Kingdom. Judas perceived he lost everything.

The disciples demonstrate this by showing no condemnation to Judas, in fact they say that Judas did have his part in the ministry. Jesus forgave him.

Much the evil on Judas is exaggerated by scornful people who are unable to forgive and so they aren't really Christian.

[HappyBoy!]

Here is another explanation I've read:  http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf  Go to Page 206.  Note that it is a pdf file that will download so if you're on a slow connection you may not want to click.  The answer given here is that it was better for Jesus had Judas not been born.

The Condordant Bible states it this way, "24 The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

You can read it online here:  http://concordant.org/version/NewFiles/01_Matthew.htm

[Craig]

Here is another explanation I've read:  http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf  Go to Page 206.  Note that it is a pdf file that will download so if you're on a slow connection you may not want to click.  The answer given here is that it was better for Jesus had Judas not been born.

The Condordant Bible states it this way, "24 The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

You can read it online here:  http://concordant.org/version/NewFiles/01_Matthew.htm

There is so many flaws with that interpretation. "It is better for Jesus that Judas was not born" though the statement is 'true' it is also true that "It is better for Judas that he was not born"  The first statement doesn't fit any theme Jesus spoke concerning.

[HappyBoy!]

When in find the flawless explanation I'll let you know.   :grin:  In the mean time it's an addition to the discussion.

Here's another:  What if Judas had died pre-birth and therefore not lived to betray Christ?  Would that not have been better for him (Judas) had he not been born?

[Craig]

The most perfect explanation is the one that 99% of everyone understands. It is that it was better for Judas that Judas had not been born.

Jesus spoke continually of that there are consequences to our words, thoughts and deeds. The problem with any other explanation is that it still presumes that if we left it at it's current traditional rendering that Jesus was saying Judas was going to an unending torment.... No where in Jesus's words did he say that, it is an assumption. So why do we have people in UR changing the words to fit something else?

First. The statement: "It would be better for Judas had Jesus not been born" Jesus is the savior of all mankind, it is better for even the one who betrayed the Savior, that the Savior had been born!

Second. The statement: "It would be better for Jesus had Judas not been born" If not Judas, it was going to be someone else, there was always going to be someone who betrayed Jesus. Jesus knew this, and so this statement would never have been made.

Third. The statement: "It would be better for Jesus had a betrayer not been born"  Jesus could not have fulfilled prophesy and He would not be the Savior.

Forth. The statement: "It is not better for Jesus that Jesus had not been born," because He is the Son of God, God manifest in the Flesh and creation would not be reconciled to Him. Therefore it is not better for Jesus that he had not been born because then God's will not be done.

Because that is an assumption people in ET read it that way but if you know ET doesn't exist then you can keep the traditional rendering and still understand it was better for Judas that he had not been born because of what he did, not because of where he is going.

[seeker411]

Thanks when I get through the reading I will respond

[seeker411]

Its a matter of opinion and a very biased one at that whether:

It would have been better for Judas NOT to be born.

OR

Face temporary punishment and THEN reconciliation to God for and unending time. (that ones a toss up)  If he wasn't born then it never would have been a problem..... :sigh:


Or face Endless punishment. (of course it would have been better if he wasn't born....like he had a choice) :dontknow:

[Craig]

If you follow the problem logically, and keep only the propositions without the addition of presumption of what happens after he dies, we recognize that it would have been better that for Judas had Judas not been born because he would not had to have carried the weight of what he did to his grave. This really has nothing to do with his destination, but the understanding that it was a heavy burden, so heavy that Judas gave back the money and hung himself.

[seeker411]

Ok that makes sense....thats the best response i have heard yet...

I am just used to Jesus making statements that echo into the afterlife.

after all thats why He came.

[rosered]

  I got cha  Craig , you explain  yourself well .. kudos to you 
I also agree  that Judas  did not know the end from the begining  and   to suffer that kind of torment is all to familiar with suicides
even to day    the shame and guilt is hard to live with and feels better off dead ...  to betray Christ is  hard to live with no doubt

  and I do also understand it to mean both , being born in the natural sense as well and in the spiritual sense  , it can apply to both ways when reading the greek word for it   gennaō 1080

1) of men who fathered children

a) to be born

b) to be begotten

1) of women giving birth to children

2) metaph.
a) to engender, cause to arise, excite

b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone

c) of God making Christ his son

d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

  :thumbsup:

[HappyBoy!]

I agree that you explain yourself well, Craig.  I much appreciate it.

I've sat under hard-core ET teaching for 40 years.  That's a lot of tunnel vision to try to shed, even in the year I've believed UR.

It helps me to know that there are indeed plausible explanations as the one you have presented so well, and even the very simple concept that "never born" does not necessarily equal "never existed".  Though it seems elementary, it opened the door a crack for me to what I used to see as an iron clad ET verse.

I really appreciate this forum, both as a sounding board for ideas and for the clear and thorough responses.  Thanks!

[Tony N]

The Son of man goes as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Seeker, go here:
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html

then search on that page for Judas and you will see a simple explanation.
Tony