Martin Answers the Baptist Minister

[Nathan]

By the way, this particular passage for me, is also a word of affirmation that Jesus isn't coming back to our realm as many suppose.  He didn't say he's preparing a place so where we are he can also be . . .but the other way around . . .so that where HE is, WE can also be.  Where is he?  Jesus is this spirit, and where the spriit of the Lord is there is liberty . . . freedom doesn't dominate in this realm, it "can" manifest through us in this realm, but only when we ourselves lay down our own minds of flesh and submit to our hearts of the Spirit.  But again, it was in the spirit where a place was built so that where Christ IS (spirit) we may also be.

I don't want him coming here in one limited body of flesh again, I want to go there, where infinity is the boundary of Truth.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Not much time on this library computer, but just had say a big AMEN to that, Nate  :thumbsup:

[Molly]

 But when he does return, it will be with his saints.




14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

    15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

--Jude 1

[jabcat]

I don't see his (or our) resurrected immortal body as "limited" necessarily.  I would think it functions any way he intends it.

[Nathan]

Help me understand how he couldn't pour out his spirit upon all flesh until after he ascended if it was not due to the fact that as long as he was in his body, resurrected even, his spirit was confined to that one body.  But once he asncended in spirit and asncended body into the spirit realm, only then could his spirit be poured out back into the natural realm of the flesh.  We want him to return to "this" place in "one" body of flesh and yet the spriit that was originally in that body remain in us?  What happened to the idea that he's prepared a place that where HE IS we may also be and not the other way around? 

[Molly]

I have thought about that too, Nathan, about why he had to ascend before he could send the HS.  We do see the HS in the OT but just in regards to the OT saints--which is very few people.  I don't have an answer to that, though--maybe it's what you are saying.  It makes the most sense.

But you ask about why he is preparing a place for us [in heaven] so that we can be with him--I'm thinking this refers to the elect who will return with him to rule and reign in the millenium--they have already received aionios life, whether in this body or not.  They have already passed over from death to life.

And I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
--Psa 23

[Nathan]

The more I think about how the soul manifests, the more this line of thought seems to fit into place in that for Christ to manifest, for his soul to manifest, his spirit must return to his body, same as ours.  But if we retain his spirit in our bodies, his soul then manifests through us . . thus . . a "renewed" mind.  It is not "I" but Christ IN ME.  Not Christ separated "from" me so that he can return "to" me.  I beleive that was the reason for him coming in the flesh in the first place, to redeem us back to the Father so that rather than just being "WITH" us, he could then be IN us.  It's been his desire all along to live in us, not appear outside of us, but to illuminate inside of us his nature, truths and love.

Not sure I can receive the second part of this with the thinking that "some" are getting special treatment.  The elect, for me, are those who have come into his freedom here and now through invitation of his presence in our lives and authority on our thrones.  God is no respector of persons . . .grace abounds to us all. 

The three guys who were given various numbers of talents comes to mind.  Are we suggesting the person with the three talents was considered part of the elect as opposed to the one who only received one talent?  Was this a parable about what transpires on the other side?  Or about our experiences on this side of life?  I see it to be referencing our effectiveness in reproducing his nature on "this" side of life. Which then would say that it's not about ruling and reigning in the spirit for a physical measurement of time (millenium) but instead, that when we enter into the intimacy (holy of holies = 10x10x10 = millenium) IN his nature we rest in his labor of love as he replaces our desires for his desires and empowers us to then carry out his desires, which are now our desires.

Rule and reigning in the kingdom of God whish is IN YOU . . .kingdom is in me, ruling and reigning is also then in me as well.

[Molly]

Yes.  The way I think about it is our soul is the bride coming down from heaven,[Rev 21] the new jerusalem as a bride prepared for her groom, and his soul is the groom--and the two will become one flesh--our soul united with his--perfection--life.

[micah7:9]

The Soul
Where does the soul go after death? I believe that the soul, like the body, returns to its state before creation. The body returns to dust, but the soul did not exist or have a consciousness prior to the moment God breathed the breath of life into Adam's nostrils. Hence, the soul ceases to exist as such after death. This does not mean that it is impossible for God to bring the soul back into conscious existence. Acts 2:25-27 says of Christ,

25 For David says of Him [Christ] . . . 27 Because Thou wilt not abandon My soul to Hades, nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.

We see here that Christ's soul was in Hades, but not abandoned there. In other words, He was raised from the dead. This makes it clear that the soul goes to Hades at death. That is described in terms of sleep, and it certainly is not a place of torment. This caused some in later centuries to assume that Hades was composed of two compartments, one for the righteous, and one for the wicked. But the Bible says nothing of this. It was simply men's way of trying to explain how all men could go to Hades, while trying to hang on to the idea that Hades was "hell," that is, a place of torture for the wicked.

Acts 2:27 quotes the Septuagint translation of Psalm 16:10, where Sheol is rendered by the Greek word Hades.

Until now, it never really dawned on me of what the idea of "soul sleep" actually is.  I don't want to sound confusing, but my "head" disagreed with the term even though my own opinion was actually saying the same thing.  It's been a while, but what has really stuck in me was someone's explanation of how the soul works and manifests . . . the colored glass analogy.  Taking a yellow, transparent piece of glass, labeling it spirit, overlaying the yellow with a red piece, calling that one "body" and as the two combine, the color changes . . .the new color represents the soul.  But remove the yellow from the red and the green disappears.  Remove spirit from body, soul disappears.  I think where I was confused with the term "soul sleep" was the idea that for one to be "sleeping" it means they still exist.  But the soul doesn't become dormant yet still existing . . .it simply stops manifesting until my spirit returns to my body.

I see the same relationship between me adn my shadow.  If there is no direct light shining on me, there is no distinct shadow.  but the moment light appears, so does my shadow.  I see our soul to manifest in the same manner.

I agree with your statement I have never seen the need to use the unbiblical term of "soul sleep." Paul used the term "asleep" which is death. The NT meaning of the word soul is not the true diffintion of what soul is. Man(kind) became  a "living soul" (Gen. 2:7) That, state(sentient being) man is in when he dies, (expires, goes to sleep) will be reunited at mans judgement.

[Molly]

 21 For me, life finds all of its meaning in Christ. Death also has its benefits.

22 Suppose I go on living in my body. Then I will be able to carry on my work. It will bear a lot of fruit. But what should I choose? I don't know. 23 I can't decide between the two. I long to leave this world and be with Christ. That is better by far.

--Phil 1



21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

--Phil 1



8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

--Rom 14

[thinktank]

Help me understand how he couldn't pour out his spirit upon all flesh until after he ascended if it was not due to the fact that as long as he was in his body, resurrected even, his spirit was confined to that one body.  But once he asncended in spirit and asncended body into the spirit realm, only then could his spirit be poured out back into the natural realm of the flesh.  We want him to return to "this" place in "one" body of flesh and yet the spriit that was originally in that body remain in us?  What happened to the idea that he's prepared a place that where HE IS we may also be and not the other way around?

I don't know the exact details and there is probably more to it, but from what I understand so far, the reason he poured out his spirit on all flesh after he died and not before it was because, prior to his resurection mankind were unholy, the scripture says there were none rightoeus no not one, man has altogether become filthy, all have gone astray.

Now with this in mind and also recall, the situation when the Lord said to Moses to take off your shoes because this is holy ground.

Acts7
32Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

33Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.


But after the resurection, now the sins of man have been paid for, which allows God greater (motivation, reason) to pour
his spirit on all flesh.

The details of when the atonment took place and the exact timing of when the spirit was poured out is difficult, but perhaps there is a legitimate reason why there might perceivably be a delay between the atonment and the outpouring of His spirit. To further complicate I'd like to add that it is the Holy spirit that is poured out on all flesh? unless I am mistaken, is there a scripture which says it is the spirit of Christ that is poured out on all flesh? I know that Christ says to the disciples that those who love God, we will manifest ourselves to them and my Father and I will come in and sup with them etc but I find that this is exclusive to those who meet certain criteria and pursue the ways of Christ, rather than a promise to All mankind. Perhaps there is scriptures that say God will be all in all, but I am talking about this time period between Christ death and Now.

[jabcat]

"Help me understand..."

Having a raised, immortal spiritual BODY (as Paul describes) IMO has nothing to do with whether or not we "go be with Him".  I believe it's a misnomer to say that some say we'll "still be in the flesh" as if we're saying there's  nothing different and miraculous  about it.  Paul describes the body being planted mortal then being raised immortal - that there are 2 kinds of body, one fleshly and one spiritual.  What seems unclear to me is why some say we won't have a body since it's outlined in the scrips.  Since I Cor. 15 describes how we'll have an immortal, spiritual body, and that Jesus was seen by hundreds (500 at one time) why would I believe we won't have one?  It seems to me the main "debatable" issue with it is "what exactly is an immortal, spiritual body"- and I believe we can only suppose at this point.  :2c:.

[Molly]

"Help me understand..."

Having a raised, immortal spiritual BODY (as Paul describes) IMO has nothing to do with whether or not we "go be with Him".  I believe it's a misnomer to say that some say we'll "still be in the flesh" as if we're saying there's  nothing different and miraculous  about it.  Paul describes the body being planted mortal then being raised immortal - that there are 2 kinds of body, one fleshly and one spiritual.  What seems unclear to me is why some say we won't have a body since it's outlined in the scrips.  Since I Cor. 15 describes how we'll have an immortal, spiritual body, and that Jesus was seen by hundreds (500 at one time) why would I believe we won't have one?  It seems to me the main "debatable" issue with it is "what exactly is an immortal, spiritual body"- and I believe we can only suppose at this point.  :2c:.

I'm not sure what you just said, Jab.  Could you rephrase it?

It's clear that Paul believes he will be with Christ when he dies and how could that happen without immortal soul and body?

We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5

[Molly]

Barnes notes on the Bible



For I am in a strait betwixt two - Two things, each of which I desire. I earnestly long to be with Christ; and I desire to remain to be useful to the world. The word rendered "I am in a strait" - συνέχομαι sunechomai - means to be pressed on or constrained, as in a crowd; to feel oneself pressed or pent up so as not to know what to do; and it here means that he was in perplexity and doubt, and did not know what to choose. "The words of the original are very emphatic. They appear to be derived from a ship when lying at anchor, and when violent winds blow upon it that would drive it out to sea. The apostle represents himself as in a similar condition. His strong affection for them bound his heart to them - as an anchor holds a ship to its moorings and yet there was a heavenly influence bearing upon him - like the gale upon the vessel - which would bear him away to heaven." Burder, in Ros. Alt. u. neu. Morgenland, in loc.

Having a desire to depart - To die - to leave this world for a better. People, as they are by nature, usually dread to die. Few are even made willing to die. Almost none desire to die - and even then they wish it only as the least of two evils. Pressed down by pain and sorrow; or sick and weary of the world, the mind may be worked up into a desire to be away. But this with the world is, in all cases, the result of misanthropy, or morbid feeling, or disappointed ambition, or an accumulation of many sorrows. Wetstein has adduced on this verse several most beautiful passages from the classic writers, in which people expressed a desire to depart - but all of them probably could be traced to disappointed ambition, or to mental or bodily sorrows, or to dissatisfaction with the world. It was from no such wish that Paul desired to die. It was not because he hated man - for he ardently loved him. It was not because he had been disappointed about wealth and honor - for he had sought neither. It was not because he had not been successful - for no man had been more so. It was not because he had been subjected to pains and imprisonments - for he was willing to bear them. It was not because he was old, and infirm, and a burden to the world - for, from anything that appears, he was in the vigor of life, and in the fullness of his strength. It was from a purer, higher motive than any of these - the strength of attachment which bound him to the Saviour, and which made him long to be with him.

And to be with Christ - We may remark on this expression:

(1) That this was the true reason why he wished to be away. It was his strong love to Christ; his anxious wish to be with him; his firm belief that in his presence was "fulness of joy."

(2) Paul believed that the soul of the Christian would be immediately with the Saviour at death. It was evidently his expectation that he would at once pass to his presence, and not that he would remain in an intermediate state to some far distant period.

(3) the soul does not sleep at death. Paul expected to be with Christ, and to be conscious of the fact - to see him, and to partake of his glory.

(4) the soul of the believer is made happy at death. To be with Christ is synonymous with being in heaven - for Christ is in heaven, and is its glory. We may add:

(a) that this wish to be with Christ constitutes a marked difference between a Christian and other people. Other people may be willing to die; perhaps be desirous to die, because their sorrows are so great that they feel that they cannot be borne. But the Christian desires to depart from a different motive altogether. It is to be with Christ - and this constitutes a broad line of distinction between him and other people.

[jabcat]

"Help me understand..."

Having a raised, immortal spiritual BODY (as Paul describes) IMO has nothing to do with whether or not we "go be with Him".  I believe it's a misnomer to say that some say we'll "still be in the flesh" as if we're saying there's  nothing different and miraculous  about it.  Paul describes the body being planted mortal then being raised immortal - that there are 2 kinds of body, one fleshly and one spiritual.  What seems unclear to me is why some say we won't have a body since it's outlined in the scrips.  Since I Cor. 15 describes how we'll have an immortal, spiritual body, and that Jesus was seen by hundreds (500 at one time) why would I believe we won't have one?  It seems to me the main "debatable" issue with it is "what exactly is an immortal, spiritual body"- and I believe we can only suppose at this point.  :2c:.

I'm not sure what you just said, Jab.  Could you rephrase it?

It's clear that Paul believes he will be with Christ when he dies and how could that happen without immortal soul and body?

We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5

Some apparently believe we won't have any sort of body, Jesus doesn't have any sort of body, and that to believe he does/we will, somehow means we believe we won't be in spiritual dwelling/fellowship with Him.  I'm just saying Jesus did have a body, Paul says we will have, and goes on to say there's a difference between the fleshly body (now) and the  spiritual body (incorruptable, immortal, then) - but that there is a body nonetheless.  I'm not sure where folks get that we won't have a body, or that Jesus doesn't, when it's described otherwise.  IMO, we just may not exactly know what a spiritual, immortal, incorruptable body is.  That's what I was trying to address.   :bigGrin:

[Molly]

Ok.  Thanks. I agree.

[Lefein]

I'm just looking forward to actually being in Heaven.  I've waited this long for a glorified body, what's a few hundred or thousand years more in the presence of Christ waiting for one?  :laughing7:

At any rate, it'd be a nice way to rest.  Being unconscious isn't restful, but a good relaxing vacation with Jesus would be.

[micah7:9]

I dont know if this will be understood, I have been given to understand it
Eph 4:3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace:
Eph 4:4 one body and one spirit, according as you were called also with one expectation of your calling;"

It seems to me that people are caught up with having a desire to have a body, we have a body now. Paul stated 1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
There is the only time Paul speaks of a spiritual body, Paul does not labor on us having "spiritual bodies" We are to keep the  b]unity[/b] for there is ONE body.

I remember back many years when a teacher asked me how many men have been in the world? I, back then said trillions. Well he said there have been only two. The First Adam and the Last Adam. By my count that makes TWO bodies.
Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one.'

[Molly]

Paul doesn't say, I long for death so that I can know nothing.  He doesn't say, I long for death so that my soul can sleep, be separated from my body and die, or just disappear until sometime in the distant future.  He says,

I long to leave this world and be with christ. That is better by far.

He says,

There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies,


he says,

if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a... house ... eternal in the heavens.



2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

--2 Cor 5

[micah7:9]

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[Molly]

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Yes, to leave what he calls 'this tent' and ...

be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven

[micah7:9]

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Yes, to leave what he calls 'this tent' and ...

be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven

And what is our house from heaven if not Christ the Lord?

[Molly]

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Yes, to leave what he calls 'this tent' and ...

be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven

And what is our house from heaven if not Christ the Lord?

well, however you may understand that.  I understand it as immortality.


John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.



...that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

--2 cor 5

[micah7:9]

YES!  Just what is it that you consider to be immortality? I understand that immortality means "deathlessness" G110
To me immortality is being part of Him, the same as Him, at ONE with Him. That to means ONE...PEACE...UNITY...LOVE.

[thinktank]

"Help me understand..."

Having a raised, immortal spiritual BODY (as Paul describes) IMO has nothing to do with whether or not we "go be with Him".  I believe it's a misnomer to say that some say we'll "still be in the flesh" as if we're saying there's  nothing different and miraculous  about it.  Paul describes the body being planted mortal then being raised immortal - that there are 2 kinds of body, one fleshly and one spiritual.  What seems unclear to me is why some say we won't have a body since it's outlined in the scrips.  Since I Cor. 15 describes how we'll have an immortal, spiritual body, and that Jesus was seen by hundreds (500 at one time) why would I believe we won't have one?  It seems to me the main "debatable" issue with it is "what exactly is an immortal, spiritual body"- and I believe we can only suppose at this point.  :2c:.

I'm not sure what you just said, Jab.  Could you rephrase it?

It's clear that Paul believes he will be with Christ when he dies and how could that happen without immortal soul and body?

We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5

Some apparently believe we won't have any sort of body, Jesus doesn't have any sort of body, and that to believe he does/we will, somehow means we believe we won't be in spiritual dwelling/fellowship with Him.  I'm just saying Jesus did have a body, Paul says we will have, and goes on to say there's a difference between the fleshly body (now) and the  spiritual body (incorruptable, immortal, then) - but that there is a body nonetheless.  I'm not sure where folks get that we won't have a body, or that Jesus doesn't, when it's described otherwise.  IMO, we just may not exactly know what a spiritual, immortal, incorruptable body is.  That's what I was trying to address.   :bigGrin:

Yes I think some here have a problem with physicality/locality. This is something that they need to overcome and maybe in time God will heal them of any issue, fears they might have.