Jesus tastes death for everyone AND many sons

[legoman]

Just looking at Hebrews 2 a bit more:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
11Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. 12He says,
   "I will declare your name to my brothers;
      in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises." 13And again,
   "I will put my trust in him." And again he says,
   "Here am I, and the children God has given me."


Its clear verse 9 says Jesus tasted death for everyone (ALL people).  Of course ETers will say NO that only means some people.

But my question is on verse 10.  Are the "many sons" only referring to God's elect?  Likewise in verse 13 it talks about the "children God has given me".

Now we know all things are given to the Son (Jesus), but we also know a certain people "the elect" have been designated for Christ as the firstfruits.

I'm just trying to understand this passage.  Personally I think verse 10 & 13 may only be talking about the elect.  But they could be referring to everyone too.

Verse 9 there is no question that it is talking about everyone.

Comments?

[sparrow]

Can I ask a quick question?  :icon_flower:

You guys.... isn't "the elect" ALL mankind?
I've always been led down the path of the answer being....yes.
The "elect" is all mankind.... we are just in varying degrees of truth revealed?

argh. maybe I shouldn't even go there again.  :laughing7:

oh what the heck, maybe there are some new folks out there with some fresh feedback.

:Sparkletooth:

[jabcat]

Dear Sparrow (fellow pirate..argh!).  I can only share what I understand.  God will teach me more tomorrow.   :Sparkletooth:

I understand that we are all predestined.  Predestined to be reconciled to our Father.  However, I believe it is done in an "order" (I Cor. 15:23,24).  Christ, then "those that are Christ's" [the "elect"], and then everything and everyone (when all is handed over to the Father).  I believe the elect are those called and chosen now...a select  body, the ecclesia;  summoned, called out, set aside for a particular purpose;  of which I believe is to serve to bring the others in...in their time, and in God's order. 

I see throngs coming into the Body and the Bride after Jesus' physical return ("gates of the city (us) open day and night, kings of the earth bringing their treasure into it").  My  :2c:.

God's blessing, James.

[legoman]

Hi Sparrow,

I don't think so... there is definitely a called and a chosen spoke of throughout the bible who are the elect.  And there is the non-elect who are a separate group (everyone else).

The elect will be raised with Christ first and will reign during the millenium.  I also believe they are instrumental in bringing everyone else to Christ.

Just my current understanding.  So when you see it talking about "the elect" in scripture, I believe it is just talking about this select group.

IMO This probably causes much of the confusion when analyzing the text form a UR standpoint vs an ET (Calvinist for example) standpoint.  Its clear there is an elect, its just the calvinists don't think the non-elect will be saved.  While the URer would say all will be saved - each in their own order.

[legoman]

Dear Sparrow (fellow pirate..argh!).  I can only share what I understand.  God will teach me more tomorrow.   :Sparkletooth:

I understand that we are all predestined.  Predestined to be reconciled to our Father.  However, I believe it is done in an "order" (I Cor. 15:23,24).  Christ, then "those that are Christ's" [the "elect"], and then everything and everyone (when all is handed over to the Father).  I believe the elect are those called and chosen now...a select  body, the ecclesia;  summoned, called out, set aside for a particular purpose;  of which I believe is to serve to bring the others in...in their time, and in God's order.  My  :2c:.

God's blessing, James.

:thumbsup: Yeah what he said!

[legoman]

So jabcat and sparrow, any comment about Hebrews 2:10?  Is the "many sons" talking about everyone or just the elect?

[jabcat]

:thumbsup: Yeah what he said!

:LH:

[jabcat]

So jabcat and sparrow, any comment about Hebrews 2:10?  Is the "many sons" talking about everyone or just the elect?

lem'me study on it a bit...got a thought or two but don't want to be too hasty

[sparrow]

hmmm.... ok thanks guys.
argggh! (sorry, had to get one more pirate sound in.)  :laughing7:

This is one of those things that I guess I've never been super interested in, sort of... so I just.. I guess that's why I have confusion and am unsure. I feel like so far... I'm being led down this path of "all mankind is elect, there is no special called out group." but I know it's just the PATH, I have not arrived at the destination of this path because I have not sought it out. Know what I mean?

thanks for your feedback. I definitely appreciate it.

Ok, so let me ask you this...

Let's say there is a group of people who will reign with Christ during a thousand year reign or whatever...
What about the people who are not in that group? What if say.... you are "elect" but your children are not.
Are you going to be separated from your children for a thousand years?

I don't understand this reign thing at all, guys...

[jabcat]

Let's say there is a group of people who will reign with Christ during a thousand year reign or whatever...
What about the people who are not in that group? What if say.... you are "elect" but your children are not.
Are you going to be separated from your children for a thousand years?

I don't understand this reign thing at all, guys...

Really good question.  I'm afraid I only understand some basics and a few details.  And so many apparent (to my eyes) possibilities, although I believe God has already settled on one  :laughing7:.  Could the separation aspect be different times for different people, as there are different situations?  What I mean is, I read (from David and Zoe?) that anyone would only be in the Lake of Fire (God's direct, correcting presence?) for as long as it takes for them to realize the error of their ways and confess Jesus as Savior.  So for many (most?) could that possibly be only a few seconds, so for instance, any of yours or my loved ones could be reunited with us almost immediately?  Whereas it would most likely take Hitler for example a bit longer.  These are just thoughts and more questions...I certainly don't have it all figured out.

I do love saying argh..and it's even more authentic if you drool a little. :happy3:

[jabcat]

P.S.  So what are we doing during that time to help bring them in?  :dontknow:.  Encouraging, teaching, saying "come on Bill (my agnostic/atheist brother), He really is the Savior!  I know it for a fact!"?  And maybe some will need some serious information/education...someone else will have studied this more and have more revelation on it.

[legoman]

Hey sparrow,

Awesome question.  And to be honest, I'm not fully sure myself.  But I've been able to put together little tidbits from scriptures.  So we have this elect who will reign in the millenium with Christ.  Obvious question: WHO WILL THEY BE REIGNING OVER?

Possibly the non-elect.  Possibly just themselves, in some sort of hierarchical order.  But in case, what will they be doing?

Well we know the non-elect still will have to be resurrected at some time, and they will have to come to Christ in their lake of fire experience.  That would probably take a lot of planning to bring all those people to Christ.  I don't think God will just snap his fingers, throw some people into literal fire and then all of a sudden they want to follow Christ.  Nope, it won't be that easy.

What will the elect be doing?:
1 Cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

We will be bringing God's judgments upon the non-elect.  Sounds kind of nasty doesn't it?  But what is the purpose of that judgment:

Isa 26:9 ... When your judgments come upon the earth,
       the people of the world learn righteousness.

Psalm 96:11 Let the heavens rejoice, let the earth be glad;
       let the sea resound, and all that is in it;
12 let the fields be jubilant, and everything in them.
       Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy;
13 they will sing before the LORD, for he comes,
       he comes to judge the earth.
       He will judge the world in righteousness
       and the peoples in his truth.

I think God's judgments will be awesome, but I don't think they will be "evil" like how ET makes them out to be.  Notice the whole earth is rejoicing and glad when God's judgments come, because everyone will learn righteousness.

To summarize: the elect will be helping to carry out judgment, helping to make everything righteous!  Every wrong will be corrected and every tear wiped away.  It will be awesome!

Some of this is speculation on my part, but this is my current understanding.

[legoman]

P.S.  So what are we doing during that time to help bring them in?  :dontknow:.  Encouraging, teaching, saying "come on Bill (my agnostic/atheist brother), He really is the Savior!  I know it for a fact!"?  And maybe some will need some serious information/education...someone else will have studied this more and have more revelation on it.

LOL looks like we are on the same page jabcat.

Yes I think we will be teaching the word.  We will be called to be judges, kings, and priests.

Also, love will be a big part of it.  Like you say sparrow, we are here to learn love.  By that point (in the millenium), the elect will have fully learned love.

But the non-elect won't know love (fully) yet. We can all imagine someone who has died who knows very little about love.  They will need to learn, just like the elect is learning now in this life.

Are we elect (you, me, jabcat, UR believers in general)?  I don't know.  Only God knows!

Peace...

[sparrow]

Hey legoman and jabcat!

I am really enjoying this conversation. Thank you for your honest input. Y'know, I think a lot of times I stay away from this subject because, well.. I always end up in the "outsider" mode. All of a sudden people are all talking about all sorts of technical things super matter-of-factly and it's just like...
hmmm. ok, I just got pushed out the door again and I'm on the outside with my nose pressed against the glass peering in at everyong going... "huh?"  :sigh:

Thanks for taking the time to discuss with me.  :HeartThrob:

Need to think about what you've guys have written and will be back to respond.
Good stuff, guys.

Just wanted you all to know I appreciate you.

jabcat, yes... if you drool a little, it's definitely more authentic.
sometimes squeezing one eye shut too.  :laughing7:

[legoman]

Awesome sparrow!

Personally I think the whole "elect/non-elect" thing gets a bad wrap because of ET/Calvinist type thinking.

But under the truth of UR, being one of the elect will be an awesome position of honor requiring great love and humility.

It will be a tough job too.  Think about some of the awful scenarios in this life.  For example, a young girl has been abused by her drunken Father for most of her life.  The father finally goes too far and kills his daughter, and then kills himself.  Neither of them knew anything about Christ.

How on earth will you bring these two individuals to Christ, reconcile them with God, and reconcile them with each other so they fully love each other and God?  I don't know, it would be a tough job, but it will have to be done.

And we can all think of worse situations than this.  How is Hitler going to be reconciled?  Sadam?  etc.

It will require great love, compassion, and humility to be part of the elect I think.

Or maybe it will be a whole lot easier than I'm thinking, because it won't be just the elect working, it will all be done through Christ.  One things for sure, God already has it all worked out!

Peace...

[sparrow]

Awesome sparrow!

Personally I think the whole "elect/non-elect" thing gets a bad wrap because of ET/Calvinist type thinking.

But under the truth of UR, being one of the elect will be an awesome position of honor requiring great love and humility.

It will be a tough job too.  Think about some of the awful scenarios in this life.  For example, a young girl has been abused by her drunken Father for most of her life.  The father finally goes too far and kills his daughter, and then kills himself.  Neither of them knew anything about Christ.

How on earth will you bring these two individuals to Christ, reconcile them with God, and reconcile them with each other so they fully love each other and God?  I don't know, it would be a tough job, but it will have to be done.

And we can all think of worse situations than this.  How is Hitler going to be reconciled?  Sadam?  etc.

It will require great love, compassion, and humility to be part of the elect I think.

Or maybe it will be a whole lot easier than I'm thinking, because it won't be just the elect working, it will all be done through Christ.  One things for sure, God already has it all worked out!

Peace...

hmm. Ok, I think we are possibly seeing things in the same way.

I wrote this awhile back about this millenial reign thing, what do you think? And this is just some thoughts I've had...some ponderings:

Anyhow, if it were were true, factual...(which I have no idea, but here are some thoughts.)

... then I see people from all walks of life doing this "ruling"....and really I don't even think I could see it as "ruling" so much as "serving". And I think people, ALL types of people from ALL types of different religions and NON-religions, YES atheists even.... being these "rulers". I see these "rulers" or "servers, people serving others helping them to cultivate love", as being those people who cultivated love in their earthly lives. Those whose main goal was to love and put more love in the world and just do what they can do to help others. I see these people as those with great compassion, selflessness, kindness, MEEKNESS, gentleness.... those who walked the way of CHRIST, even if they never heard of Jesus' name. Those whom God reached and maybe they didn't even REALIZE that God was talking to them in the first place.

THESE are the witnesses I see. And I see these witnesses, these rulers as just serving others, serving their brothers and sisters with gentle kindness, maybe helping them to discover love and goodness. I see it as a truly beautiful, wondrous thing.

God doesn't see our religion or lack thereof.
God sees our heart.
I believe this is KEY.
And wipes out a lot of confusion.
So many will be surprised, I believe at this simple truth.

Well, either way.... whether this millenial reign thing is an actual reality or not... this is just the way I see it.
I think it would be fun to serve. Fun to help others discover how much God loves us and help others discover that..hey! GOD IS LOVE!!!!!!!

That's a nice thought. I'd love to do that.
But God has a lot more work to do on me...
     It's just as well, I wouldn't mind being surrounded by all of those wonderful, loving, selfless people helping me to be more loving. That is definitely a wonderful thing to look forward to, if it is so.... I have known several people in my life who, I feel, fit this description. I'd love to be surrounded by those type of people. They're the best type of people in the world. I remember a friend of my mom's. Her name was Becky. She was one of the most selfless, kindest people I've ever met. If ever there were someone to rule and serve others to help them know LOVE... it would be Becky.

See, now I think that when I say "atheists, etc" could be ruling (or serving as I like to see it), these are just people from all walks of life who listened to that still, small voice of God within them. They MAY NOT HAVE REALIZED it was God, but once they are confronted WITH God, they will immediately RECOGNIZE Him. Do you understand what I mean? ("atheists", of course they would no LONGER be atheists... :laughing7: )

This is why I get so err... annoyed... by so many "Christians" all talking gung-ho about their ruling over all these "NON-CHRISTIANS!" in some millenial reign. Because I see it as God see's our HEART. He doesn't see labels and stuff. He is looking for those who are following love. and cultivating LOVE.

God IS love.
So MANY people are actually following God and not even realizing it.
That's just the way I see it.

[jabcat]

Blessings to you both, and I know what you mean Sparrow.  I probably don't know much more about it than what's been said, great points! I agree.  I'll think about it some more when I can get back to it, maybe look at some info to share...at work right now.  Later, James.

[sparrow]

And to expand on that further...

The picture that I see is this:

There will be MANY who think they knew God, and then when confronted with God, when they are in His presence, they will realize that they did NOT know God as well as they THOUGHT. A lot of Christians will go through this, I believe.

And then... on the flip side.

You will ALSO have MANY who do NOT know God, but when confronted with God, when they are in His presence, they will INSTANTLY RECOGNIZE Him!!


To me, it's all about love.
God sees the heart.

this is why... I know some people, well probably a lot of people, when discussing this possiblity of a millenial reign, if I mention the possiblity of athiests (well actually they would be FORMER atheists) and other "non-christians" reigning... they are absolutely aghast. But I don't understand why.

It seems to make perfect sense to me.

There are a lot of people who don't realize that they know God (God is Love) but they actually DO know God, and they know God FAR BETTER than some christians. They just don't realize it yet.

Do you all get what I'm saying??

sorry, some things are really tough to put into words because they could be percieved in several different ways. It's like walking on eggshells trying to get the right point across.  :happy3:

[sparrow]

So. back to the millenial reign.

It DOES make sense to me in a sense of people "reigning" are serving their fellow mankind by helping them/coaching them to LOVE.

It's NOT ... a   " :icon_king: :icon_queen: woo hoo! look at us! We are like so cool! We are reigning over you!!! We are the CHOSEN ONES!  Woo hoo!"

:laughing7:

It's more like:

" :flowerred: :happyclap: :LoveH1: :hiya: " just humbly helping people to cultivate love. That's all... just being humble little servants of God, helping our brothers and sisters see the joy in love. And giving them a helping hand.

This makes sense to me. This is a millenial reign I could believe.

And it would be really a joyous thing, a beautiful thing!

and once the reign is over... we are all "elect".

hmmm... well still thinking about this.
This is just the thing, SO FAR, that makes the most sense to me.
I mean so many people in this world are already DOING these things...
God works through people, so it does make sense, in that regard.

[jabcat]

And to expand on that further...

The picture that I see is this:

There will be MANY who think they knew God, and then when confronted with God, when they are in His presence, they will realize that they did NOT know God as well as they THOUGHT. A lot of Christians will go through this, I believe.

And then... on the flip side.

You will ALSO have MANY who do NOT know God, but when confronted with God, when they are in His presence, they will INSTANTLY RECOGNIZE Him!!

It seems to make perfect sense to me.

There are a lot of people who don't realize that they know God (God is Love) but they actually DO know God, and they know God FAR BETTER than some christians. They just don't realize it yet.

Since I believe all access to the Father is through the Son, I would think, in accord with what you're saying, that those who already have a tender, loving heart, will SO easily, almost instantly, recognize Jesus as their Savior and confess and embrace Him as such.  While again, as you say, there will be many who just thought they knew Him, based on their religiosity, good works, whatever, that will be surprised that their works not of Christ will have to be "burned away" so they themselves will be saved;  maybe them not nearly as quickly or "easily" as some that never professed anything, because they just didn't know/understand (hadn't been called out in this lifetime).  And I don't think there's any cause to be arrogant or prideful in our being "elect"...it is a position of responsibility and service, and the only thing we can glory in is the cross of Christ.  Yep, good talk  :bigGrin:.  Back to work  :mthumbsup:

[reFORMer]

The word "elect" in English is a transliteration of the Greek word electo(n), meaning:  "choose," or, "chosen."  Can anybody guess why hireling translators indulge in such disingenuous translating?

(There have been 13 more replies since I meant to post this.  After I digest those posts I just read there's more to come.)

"...he, he, heh," while twiddling his moustache.

[peacemaker]

"God doesn't see our religion or lack thereof; He sees our heart."

Love this, Sparrow!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/2100/2100194ceweghk6f9.gif)

peacemaker

[Tim B]

Hey sparrow,

Awesome question.  And to be honest, I'm not fully sure myself.  But I've been able to put together little tidbits from scriptures.  So we have this elect who will reign in the millenium with Christ.  Obvious question: WHO WILL THEY BE REIGNING OVER?

Possibly the non-elect.  Possibly just themselves, in some sort of hierarchical order.  But in case, what will they be doing?

Well we know the non-elect still will have to be resurrected at some time, and they will have to come to Christ in their lake of fire experience.  That would probably take a lot of planning to bring all those people to Christ.  I don't think God will just snap his fingers, throw some people into literal fire and then all of a sudden they want to follow Christ.  Nope, it won't be that easy.

What will the elect be doing?:
1 Cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

We will be bringing God's judgments upon the non-elect.  Sounds kind of nasty doesn't it?  But what is the purpose of that judgment:

Isa 26:9 ... When your judgments come upon the earth,
       the people of the world learn righteousness.

Psalm 96:11 Let the heavens rejoice, let the earth be glad;
       let the sea resound, and all that is in it;
12 let the fields be jubilant, and everything in them.
       Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy;
13 they will sing before the LORD, for he comes,
       he comes to judge the earth.
       He will judge the world in righteousness
       and the peoples in his truth.

I think God's judgments will be awesome, but I don't think they will be "evil" like how ET makes them out to be.  Notice the whole earth is rejoicing and glad when God's judgments come, because everyone will learn righteousness.

To summarize: the elect will be helping to carry out judgment, helping to make everything righteous!  Every wrong will be corrected and every tear wiped away.  It will be awesome!

Some of this is speculation on my part, but this is my current understanding.

"1 Cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? "

It's interesting that is says that the saints will judge the world, because I'm pretty sure there's a lot of saints that wouldn't send anybody to Hell, or annihilation, for that matter. Maybe it's not talking about that sort of judgement, but if we're not willing to do it, I'd be hard pressed to think that God, being Love, could do it either.  :bigGrin:

[Doc]

Yeah, we've always got to remember that God's judgments bring forth righteousness. Those who will co-judge the world will do so only as God's agents, so that judgment will be righteous, as it comes ultimately from Him. We've got to get this negative concept of judgment out of our heads.

[onlytruth]

aaargh..that feels good!!!
my :2c:
if Jesus would be, still around here on earth...i beleive he would be judging and calling things into line.But since he gave his life willingly(sacrificed everything) we now have to wait for the new sons/daughters to show up.
If we can learn from Jesus and what he was doing,we can see he loved everyone and it wasn't about him at all...it was about the Father and the glory He should receive!
Jesus said we would do even greater things...but at the same time we are called to wash the feet of the drug addict or murderer,so when we die to ourselves completely and walk in the spirit thats when we enter the kingdom.
blessings everyone :icon_king:
aaaargh ... i had to say it once more. :laughing7: