Jehovah's Witnesses

[Fang_Diachi]

Hello Tentmaker. My heart for God has led me to this site, and I am eager to learn as I have been completely wiped out of any belief for the ET that I was raised to believe. There is, however something else holding me back from giving my full heart to UR, and that is my friend who is a Jehovah's Witness. My heart leans towards UR, but it is starting to wonder more by the day as my friend is able to associate ANYTHING with the bible, and any questions I seem to ask her, any arguments about JW she can answer! I currently do not know much about UR, or JW, but I am studying more by the day, and since my heart is leaning more towards the concept of UR I felt as if I should ask, what do you people think about this religion? Poke holes in it, or tear it up, or restore it I dont care, I want to hear some other opinions about it.  :icon_joker:

One thing that gets me in particular is how most things here relate to battling the concept of Hell and virtually nothing against the JW belief. JW do not believe there is a Hell either, in fact my friend even related it to the graveyards but they do believe anyone who does not, "know the truth" or the JW religion will be given the one-thousand years mentioned in the Bible to learn, and that EVERYONE will know the truth, yet there will still be people who decline it, and those people will be wiped clean from existence... no hell, no resserection...

This does not worry me as much cause everyone I know all my family and friends, since the truth will be known to all, it will not be a matter of deciding if its true or not, but a matter of accepting God after you know the truth, (which only truly evil would decline) would accept him after knowing the truth. But the JW have many rules and, from my own personal viewpoint it seems as if they believe Jehovah to be easily angered.

She has many proofs, and ive seen many UR proofs as well. I am studying the Bible, and I honestly could live with either as truth as the way she speaks, not many people would suffer as most would accept God, but I just want to know the truth. That is why I am asking now your outlook on this view of Christianity. =] Help me to understand.

(I am only 15 years old. I still gots lots to learn.  :Sparkletooth:)

[jabcat]

IMO, they're not wrong about everything...but they are wrong about the most important thing...Yesu, the Messiah, our Savior...His grace, His blood, His regenerating power in the hearts and minds of those believing...and IMO, not recognizing and clinging for dear life to those things, in many ways equals a "house built upon sand...great will be the fall of it".  God's blessing, James.

[martincisneros]

Briefly stated, Russell Miller's the JW and A.E. Knoch is UR at the following link:

http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/russell.html

And, in closing, JWs deny that Christ Jesus literally arose from the dead, bodily.  They teach that only his spirit arose.  Therefore, from a Biblical New Testament standpoint they wouldn't be regarded as Christians on that alone.  Biblically that alone is a deal breaker 'cause St. Paul is very clear about not messin' with that.  They deny the personhood of Holy Spirit, and they deny that salvation is by grace through faith.  Some Christians take major issue with them for their denial of the trinity doctrine and the deity of Christ.  If you come from a background that believes in the trinity and the deity of Christ, then that sorta answers your questions about them as to whether or not they're Christian.  Again, the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ is the irrefuteable fact of history, divinity, the atonement, Bible prophecy, etc.

The above link clarifies a few things about "destruction."  Although we don't deal with the JWs specifically with any of the threads around here, their beliefs are basically covered with any threads on these boards that deal with the annihilation of the wicked or what some would call "eternal destruction."  We do deal with that around here, but it's just not categorized as dealing with the JWs specifically because Seventh Day Adventists and other groups likewise believe in annihilationism.  Andrew Jukes had this to say about "destruction" in his book "Restitution of all things":

The opinion of the annihilation of the wicked, which has at different times been held by some, as a refuge from the doctrine of never-ending punishment, is not only opposed to the whole analogy of our regeneration, which shews how death and judgment are the only way of life and deliverance for a fallen creature, but also so directly contradicts what is said of "death" in Scripture, that it is difficult to conceive how it could ever have been accepted by believers. Even before the reason of the Cross is seen, the very letter of Scripture, one might have thought, would have kept men from concluding that the "death," "destruction," and "perishing," of the wicked means their non-existence or annihilation. For what is "death"? What is "destruction"? How are these words invariably used in Holy Scripture?

First, as to "death," are any of the varied deaths, which Scripture speaks of as incident to man, his non-existence or annihilation? Take as examples the deaths referred to by St. Paul , in the sixth, seventh, and eighth chapters of the Epistle to the Romans. We read, (chapt. vi. 7,) "He that is dead is freed from sin." Is this "death," which is freedom from sin, non-existence or annihilation? Again, where the Apostle says, (chapt. vii. 9,) "I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died,"—was this "death," wrought in him by the law, annihilation? Again, where he says, (chapt. viii. 6,) "To be carnally minded is death," is this death non-existence or annihilation? And again, when he says (chapt. viii. 38,) "Neither death nor life shall separate us," is the "death" here referred to annihilation? When Adam died on the day he sinned, (Gen. ii. 17,) was this annihilation? When his body died, and turned to dust, (Gen. v. 5,) was this annihilation? Is our "death in trespasses and sins," (Eph. ii. 1, 2,) annihilation? Is our "death to sin," (Rom. vi. 11,) annihilation? When the "corn of wheat falls into the ground and dies," (S. John xii. 24,) is it annihilated; or is St. Paul right in saying, (1 Cor. xv. 37,) "That which thou sowest is not quickened except it die?" Do not these and similar uses of the word prove beyond all question, that whatever else these deaths may be, not one of them is non-existence or annihilation? On what grounds, I ask, are we to assign a sense to this particular death which confessedly the word "death" has not and cannot have elsewhere? Where is the proof that there is and can be no resurrection from the second death?

The truth is, death for man is simply an end to, and separation from, some given form of life which he has lived in. Death to God is separation from His world of light, by the destruction, through the lie of the serpent, of the divine life of light and love in us. Death to sin, the exact converse of this, is the separation from the world of darkness, by the destruction, through the truth, of the dark life of unbelief and self-love. The death wrought by the law is the end of, and separation from, our fallen carnal life of self-sufficiency; while what is commonly called death, namely the death of the body, is simply our separation from the outward world, in which we live, as partakers of its outward life, while we are in the body.

Once let us see that there are three worlds, each having its own life,--a light world, a dark world, and this outward seen world,--and then what is said in Scripture of the new birth, or of the varied deaths we pass through, becomes at once self-evident. For the only way into any world is by a birth into it, even as the only way out of any world is by a death to it. We have by sin died to God's light-world, to fall into and live in a spirit-world of darkness. We must by the truth, that is by Christ, die to this dark spirit-world, to return to live in God's light-world. The outward birth and death of the body, and its life, have only to do with the outward seen world.

For this reason it is that the word "destruction," as used in Scripture, never means annihilation. Take for instance the words of the xcth Psalm, "Thou turnest man to destruction: again Thou sayest, Come again, ye children of men." Can "destruction" here be annihilation? Is it not rather that dissolution which must take place if fallen creatures are ever to be brought back perfectly to God's kingdom. So again, Job says, (chapt. xix. 10,) "He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone"; and again, (chapt. ix. 22,) "This one thing I said, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked." But does he mean to say that he is brought to non-existence, or that the "perfect" will be so destroyed, that they will exist no longer? So, again, St. Peter says, (2 Ep. iii. 6,) "The world that then was perished." So, again, of the present heavens and earth it is said, (Heb. i. 11, 12,) "They shall perish, . . . and be changed." So, again, both of Israel and Jerusalem it is said, (Deut. xxx. 18; Jer. xii. 17; xv. 6;) that they shall be "destroyed" and "perish." But does any one suppose that therefore they will be annihilated? So, again, as to the expression, "them that perish," sometimes translated "the lost"; (see 2 Cor. iv. 3; 1 Cor. i. 18; 2 Cor. ii. 15;) do we not know that these "lost," though they "perish," still exist, and exist both as "lost" ones and "saved" ones, as text on text will testify abundantly. So as to the righteous, in the well-known passage of Isaiah; (chapt. lvii, 1;) "The righteous "perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart";--is this "perishing" non-existence? So, again, where we read, in Psalm lxxxiii. 16-18, "Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek thy name, O Lord: let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame and perish; that men " (literally " they ," for the word " men " is not in the Original,) "may know that Thou, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth;"—men are to be "confounded for ever and perish, that they may know Jehovah."

So as to the question, "Wilt Thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee? Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave, or they faithfulness in destruction?"—is the true answer, Yes, or No? Is not the "losing" or "destruction" of our fallen life the only way to a better one? Does not our Lord Himself say more than once, (S. Matt. x. 39; xvi. 25; S. John xii. 25;) that the way to "save our life," or "soul," is to "lose it," or "have it destroyed," in its fallen form, that it may be re-created?

These last words should of themselves settle this question, for in one place, (S. Matt. x. 39,) they occur in immediate connexion (see verse 28,) with those other well-known words, as to "fearing him who can destroy both body and soul in hell," which are constantly quoted by some to prove, as they think, that "destruction" must be non-existence. And yet, in the very closest connexion with these words, our Lord repeats the self-same word, "destroy," (in our Authorized Version translated "lose"—it is the word apollumi, on which some build so much,) to express that death and dissolution of the soul, which, so far from bringing it to non-existence, is the appointed way to save it. Christ saves it, as we have seen, by death; for being fallen into sin, what is needed is "that the body of sin should be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom. vi. 6.) The elect, that is the first-fruits, are the living proof of this. A "new man" is created in them, and the "old man" dies and is destroyed, while yet he in whom all this is done remains through all the same person. It may be, and is, a riddle, like "dying, and behold we live: having nothing, and yet possessing all things"; yet it is only the riddle of the Cross, that "by death God destroys him that has the power of death." Therefore, though destruction, like death, may be, and is, a ceasing from some particular form of life which has been lived in by man, yet it is never non-existence absolutely; rather it is the means to bring the fallen creature into a new life, a chaos being ever the necessary condition for a new creation.

As for the argument, founded by some on the word apollumi , that because it is one of the strongest in the Greek language to express destruction, therefore that destruction must be irremediable, the simple answer is, that the question is not whether the destruction is great, but whether God is not still greater, and therefore whether He is not able even out of the destruction to bring forth better things. This at least is certain, that both in the New Testament and in the Classical Greek, the word in question is used of those who though "destroyed" are yet "saved." To the passages already quoted from the New Testament I will only add one more:--"The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost :" (S. Luke xix. 10.)

[Mark Christopher]

Great info on JW can be found here!

http://www.4witness.org/

[MacPherson]

They haven't bothered me since I drew a chalk outline on my doorstep and scattered a few watchtower pamphlets around it.

Bill

[Cardinal]

They haven't bothered me since I drew a chalk outline on my doorstep and scattered a few watchtower pamphlets around it.

Bill

:grin: :laughing7:  Thanks for my laugh for the day, that was hilarious.... :thumbsup:

[sheila]

   Hi!

   I want to share my expierence with you. At 17 I was offered
   the truth about universal salvation,but rejected it.

   I was of the opionion that some just couldn't be forgiven
  and that works was required.Forget the free gift[I did]

   Due to that mindset.I was sent off to a spiritual prison-

  house.[Jehovah's wittness's]Matthew 18;30 Rev 2;10.

  After these hard task-masters got through with me,and
the spirit released me from this prisonhouse...I tell you
I was glad. And more ready to accept grace for myself,
and ALL of mankind

   When associating as a newly interested person in
  contact with jw's, they do not tell you the full story
of what they will demand of you. It is a rigorous
  spiritual work system.

   They do have a 'talent' of truth they  sell to you..
  but the price is dear and they take you into spiritual slavery
  through it.

   IMHO  they serve as the wicked slave who says,,my Master is
  delaying, and drinks with the drunkards, and beat the sheep
  in their care. They are spiritually drunk from power and authority..have judged before the time,and erronously.

   Father used them as correction in wrong attitudes in me..
   but what a painful expierence. Jesus and Our Father are
  replaced by 'THE ORGANIZATION" and the faithful discreet slave. Forget Jesus being the mediator for you, He only has dealings with the 'annointed" that make up all the rules in the organization. They will replace God and Jesus and hold spiritual authority over you instead. Suicide levels are high in jw's
because they 'heap up such heavy loads", so many have a hard time.

   I praise God that He did visit me while I was in this prison
  and finally  released their hold on me.

   Hope this helps..also hope you escape this that I expierenced.

                                        Sheila

[Nathan]

I praise God with you!!  I feel like I have been sent underground as I am a pastor of a denomination of which is very much traditional and I no longer am.  But when people come in, bound by those same traditions, I have the unique honor of being a forerunner to them in planting seeds in their nature.  Most times, they don't stay as it's to radical for them . . .but a few have embraced this immediately and what a joy that is to watch.

But it reminds me of something I wanted to comment on earlier.  There have been a number of people who've stated they either heard or saw this and rejected it, only to find themselves fully emersed in it at a later time.  I see this initial introduction as the seed . . . and some may think they're walking away from it, but by then, it's to late because their heart is pure, it's their mind that has messed them up.  So when this seed of the idea of UR and other things enter, it takes on a life of it's own and when it births, it changes them.

Molly had posted earlier about John the Baptist baptizing "unto repentance".  And then she gave the definition of the word used . which is to say "thinking differently".  Being baptized in water is a physical pattern of being baptized in Christ  . . .he causes you to think differenty.  Some are baptized into religion, which is another Christ.  It's a form of Christ . .but it's not the true Christ.  The difference is . . .freedom.  Christ is a spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is . .there is LIBERTY.