The paradox argument

[B_T]

Hi folks,

I had a conversation last week with a friend and he is a Calvinist. He studies Christian Universalism. He doesn't reject this teaching, but he doesn't accept it for a very simple reason.

God is full of paradoxes. For example, the trinity. God is a father, a son and a holy ghost. How could this be possible? It's a paradox. Free will and predestination - we have again a paradox. Creation and evolution - yet another paradox. And yes - God is love and sends somebody to hell.

He views Universalism as a teching trying to clear out the paradox. It's just too simple to be true.

[jabcat]

Well, I personally think your friend is missing the fact that all scriptures reconcile, fit together, when viewed as revealed to our spirit by the Spirit.  This is true with Ultimate Reconciliation.

I happen to believe Calvinists have part of it right.  God has predestined...they just miss the part that He has predestined all...some now, the elect, and the rest in the next age(s)...instead of those masses going to "hell" as predestined, the masses are predestined to be "saved as by fire", through the Lake of Fire, in the consummation of the ages...

...at the consummation, God will be ALL in ALL . Paul lists three unmistakable and successive orders in which EVERY MAN is made alive. "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming....The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.  ...  then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL" (I Cor. 15:23-28).

1. Christ the firstfruits 
2. Afterwards those who are Christ's at His coming
3. Then the end ... all enemies ... all things subdued ... until God is ALL IN ALL.

Some now, what scripture calls the manifest sons of God, all later, in their own order...when all are sufficiently "tortured" ([basanimos], touchstone/tested) with "fire and brimstone" (divine purification) then "every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Greek meaning, DECLARE OPENLY, WITH JOY!!) that Jesus Christ is the Lord".

No paradox...it fits.

God's blessing to you and your friend.  James.

[alihaymeg]

It is subjective to call the Trinity, Free will, creation, or God's plan to restore all things paradoxes. I don't see any paradox present within any of these subjects.

God's triune nature is not as complicated as it seems when trying to understand it in human terms. Just because it seems a mystery to some does not mean that it does not make sense.

Free will is not a Biblical concept. Our will is limited, therefore not truly free. Can we make one hair black or white? No. Therefore our will only exists within the limits of the soul. We are subject to much more than we have control of.

Creation and evolution do not contradict one another. It is only our attempts to limit God that present a problem when attempting to relegate one with the other.

The truth about God's plan to restore all things can only be understood and believed with the heart. Do you withhold your love from your children because they rebel against you? Neither does God. It's quite simple. You can study till you turn blue but any doctrine can be made to stand with enough twisting of the scriptures. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the true nature of God to our hearts.

The real danger lies in trying to dictate to God whom He is allowed to redeem. I would just assume let Him decide that. No one has ever been refined by His wrath. Only His love can do that. So, why not focus on revealing His love to the world?

[YoungYuni]

Hi folks,

I had a conversation last week with a friend and he is a Calvinist. He studies Christian Universalism. He doesn't reject this teaching, but he doesn't accept it for a very simple reason.

God is full of paradoxes. For example, the trinity. God is a father, a son and a holy ghost. How could this be possible? It's a paradox. Free will and predestination - we have again a paradox. Creation and evolution - yet another paradox. And yes - God is love and sends somebody to hell.

He views Universalism as a teching trying to clear out the paradox. It's just too simple to be true.

Hiya!

It only appears that God is full of paradoxes because we are using our inexperience human understanding in order to make sense of it.

God is Trinity? I don't need to go into this, we all should know, God is all in all, therefore God is all things to all people. By His nature those things are good and perfect.

Creation and Evolution is not a paradox! Mankind has created computers and along with computers, programming, and along with programming, artificial intelligence. Of course it is not to a self aware sentience, but it is evolution of the computer all the same. Creation and Evolution are not paradoxes, they are different things used in the creation of all things.

God loves all but sends many to Hell? If you belong to this forum, it is an understanding that Hell is not a place of wonton never ending torment for the wicked, but a place of correction to perfection. So God loves everyone, He desires to have all mankind experience a salvation, and they will one way or another.

Free will and predestination, also, are not paradoxes. In time, all free will will eventually choose what is good for good. Therefore, neither violating free will, nor affecting a preordained destination of all mankind.

Paradoxes are just assumptions the mind creates to explain away the things it does not understand.

:cloud9: :gangel:

[jabcat]

 

Hiya!

It only appears that God is full of paradoxes because we are using our inexperience human understanding in order to make sense of it.

God is Trinity? I don't need to go into this, we all should know, God is all in all, therefore God is all things to all people. By His nature those things are good and perfect.

Creation and Evolution is not a paradox! Mankind has created computers and along with computers, programming, and along with programming, artificial intelligence. Of course it is not to a self aware sentience, but it is evolution of the computer all the same. Creation and Evolution are not paradoxes, they are different things used in the creation of all things.

God loves all but sends many to Hell? If you belong to this forum, it is an understanding that Hell is not a place of wonton never ending torment for the wicked, but a place of correction to perfection. So God loves everyone, He desires to have all mankind experience a salvation, and they will one way or another.

Free will and predestination, also, are not paradoxes. In time, all free will will eventually choose what is good for good. Therefore, neither violating free will, nor affecting a preordained destination of all mankind.

Paradoxes are just assumptions the mind creates to explain away the things it does not understand.

:cloud9: :gangel:

:goodpost:...excellent summary.  It all fits, all can be reconciled, as the Holy Spirit reveals more of God to all of us, including his increasingly accurately (and honestly) translated Word(s)...

[MacPherson]

Hi folks,

I had a conversation last week with a friend and he is a Calvinist. He studies Christian Universalism. He doesn't reject this teaching, but he doesn't accept it for a very simple reason.

God is full of paradoxes. For example, the trinity. God is a father, a son and a holy ghost. How could this be possible? It's a paradox. Free will and predestination - we have again a paradox. Creation and evolution - yet another paradox. And yes - God is love and sends somebody to hell.

He views Universalism as a teching trying to clear out the paradox. It's just too simple to be true.

As far as I know, Universal Reconciliation is not that God won't send people to hell. But what hell is and how long it lasts. "Everlasting punishment" - King James Version. "Age-abiding correction" - Rotherham's Emphasized Bible.

[MacPherson]

Hi folks,

I had a conversation last week with a friend and he is a Calvinist. He studies Christian Universalism. He doesn't reject this teaching, but he doesn't accept it for a very simple reason.

God is full of paradoxes. For example, the trinity. God is a father, a son and a holy ghost. How could this be possible? It's a paradox. Free will and predestination - we have again a paradox. Creation and evolution - yet another paradox. And yes - God is love and sends somebody to hell.

He views Universalism as a teching trying to clear out the paradox. It's just too simple to be true.

I feel that is good to point out the things listed above as being paradox.
Or maybe a better word could be abstract.
Many people seem to take the extreme side of one over the other, when maybe the truth is that is a little of both, somewhere in the middle.
A Paradox is like an Oxymoron.
Like Sweet and Sour.
Is it Sweet or is it Sour?
Would it make sense to have one group of people calling themselves Sweetians arguing that it is sweet, and another group of people calling themselves Sourians arguing that it is sour?
When it is both sweet and sour at the same time?
Then maybe if that is agreed.
A new debate can start over whether it is more sweet than sour, or is it more sour than sweet.
Meanwhile, the Chef smiles and shakes his head.

[MacPherson]

Also I immediately thought of the paradox in Scripture Jesus Himself pointed out:

And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple,
"How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?

"David himself said in the Holy Spirit,
         'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
         "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
         UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET."'

"David himself calls Him 'Lord'; so in what sense is He his son?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him. (Mark 12:35-37)

Psalm 110:1
Matthew 22:44
Mark 12:36
Luke 20:42
Acts 2:34

[WhiteWings]

Hi folks,

I had a conversation last week with a friend and he is a Calvinist. He studies Christian Universalism. He doesn't reject this teaching, but he doesn't accept it for a very simple reason.

God is full of paradoxes. For example, the trinity. God is a father, a son and a holy ghost. How could this be possible? It's a paradox. Free will and predestination - we have again a paradox. Creation and evolution - yet another paradox. And yes - God is love and sends somebody to hell.

He views Universalism as a teching trying to clear out the paradox. It's just too simple to be true.

Another paradox: A Calvinist with friends. They only have enemies trying to steal their spot in the lucky 5% draw...  :laughing7:

[Doc]

Hi folks,

I had a conversation last week with a friend and he is a Calvinist. He studies Christian Universalism. He doesn't reject this teaching, but he doesn't accept it for a very simple reason.

God is full of paradoxes. For example, the trinity. God is a father, a son and a holy ghost. How could this be possible? It's a paradox. Free will and predestination - we have again a paradox. Creation and evolution - yet another paradox. And yes - God is love and sends somebody to hell.

He views Universalism as a teching trying to clear out the paradox. It's just too simple to be true.

Speaking of paradoxes; your friend appears to be a paradox himself. He doesn't reject UR teaching, but doesn't accept it either? Non-acceptance is rejection. It sounds to me more like he has issues with logic...

[jabcat]

Hi folks,

I had a conversation last week with a friend and he is a Calvinist. He studies Christian Universalism. He doesn't reject this teaching, but he doesn't accept it for a very simple reason.

God is full of paradoxes. For example, the trinity. God is a father, a son and a holy ghost. How could this be possible? It's a paradox. Free will and predestination - we have again a paradox. Creation and evolution - yet another paradox. And yes - God is love and sends somebody to hell.

He views Universalism as a teching trying to clear out the paradox. It's just too simple to be true.

Another paradox: A Calvinist with friends. They only have enemies trying to steal their spot in the lucky 5% draw...  :laughing7:

You do know that 4 of that 5 percent is Caucasian Americans...the rest is a real luck of the draw...uh, good luck to ya' then...