If everyone will be saved then what's the point of the sacrifices?

Started by Searching_For_The_Truth, April 23, 2015, 07:31:52 AM

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Searching_For_The_Truth

April 23, 2015, 07:31:52 AM
Hello all,

Another argument that people use against Universal salvation is the notion that "if everyone is going to be saved, then wouldn't that make the sacrifices of all the martyrs (such as those beheaded by ISIS) for nothing?" How would you respond to that notion?

Thanks in advance,

SFTT

jabcat

#1
April 23, 2015, 09:12:35 AM
We don't serve Him to avoid hell or gain favor.  We serve Him because we know Him and because His love compels/constrains us (2 Cor. 5:14).  He's alive in us and gives us strength to stand for Him, so we can do nothing less than be faithful when "called upon the carpet" for Him;  His work within us.  It's the relationship.

True love gives and sacrifices, even to the point of death.  Death is just the next step into His presence (2 Cor. 5:8).

"Though God slay me yet I'll trust Him" - Job.
The oldest known manuscripts agree with each other 99% of the time.  The scriptures, accurately translated, Spirit revealed - reliable.   Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Lazarus Short

#2
April 23, 2015, 11:06:09 AM
Read Fox's Book of Martyrs, and you'll soon see your answer in the contrast between the persecuter and the persecuted.  There is such a Spirit shining through in those who are being slaughtered like sheep every day, that it is almost a sacrament on their part.  They are vindicated, the world is condemned, and God is glorified by such events.  It is odd that it should be so, but it is.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

rosered

#3
April 23, 2015, 04:34:17 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 23, 2015, 11:06:09 AM
Read Fox's Book of Martyrs, and you'll soon see your answer in the contrast between the persecuter and the persecuted.  There is such a Spirit shining through in those who are being slaughtered like sheep every day, that it is almost a sacrament on their part.  They are vindicated, the world is condemned, and God is glorified by such events.  It is odd that it should be so, but it is.

:thumbsup:           

  blessed in the sight of the Lord are the death of his holy/godly  ones [saints ]Psalms 116 

He Listens to My Voice
...14I shall pay my vows to the LORD, Oh may it be in the presence of all His people.

15 Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His godly ones.

16O LORD, surely I am Your servant, I am Your servant, the son of Your handmaid, You have loosed my bonds....

slaughter all the day long   ,   here is a few key verses as to Why and how even this is glorifying God  in the earth as it is in heaven   for an eternal glory  ..life and death are ours ......... as the world   becomes more wicked  /lawlessness increases  so does the grace of God even more so    .. this is the UR stance  in my opinion     
  the signs of the times   and seasons     smoke and  Acts 2 ...18EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy


. 19'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE. 20'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME....



Romans 8 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."


37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us....

Psalm 44:11
You gave us up to be devoured like sheep and have scattered us among the nations.

Psalm 44:22
Yet for your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

Acts 20:24
However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me--the task of testifying to the good news of God's grace.

1 Corinthians 4:9
For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings.

1 Corinthians 15:30
And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?

1 Corinthians 15:31
I face death every day--yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Corinthians 1:9
Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead.

2 Corinthians 4:10
We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.

2 Corinthians 6:9
known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed;

2 Corinthians 11:23
Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again.

Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ--yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

   For  me ,  we are well on on way to   perilous times   , I am convinced   the govt  will be setting up marshal law soon ,   as to the Ferguson  Missouri thing is a start   in the U.S    to be blunt and   the   balloon effect of   paper money holding NO value  a big collapse     of this  poor economy     etc ..
  Get ready for some    rubber meeting the road   proof
  Not trying to instill   fear , but we need to prepare ourselves for some rough times  a head     and to die  is gain in the Lord   

  the beast is rising  its ugly head      :2c:
Jesus is the reward  !!

rosered

#4
April 23, 2015, 04:42:53 PM


  This will be scary to the human aspect  of things happening
  But the   ones  whom the Holy Spirit has  been teaching   , they will know   whats  going on in their generation , just as the generations past have seen corruption   

I know the  great earthquake  of Chile  is a  great column  of  smoke with fire and a  dark cloud that covers the Light /Sun    same thing Abram  saw  when the Lord was dealing with him and  described it   , we have this technology    now      and worldly wisdom that defuses a lot of the meanings
Same as the whirlwind / TORNADO  of JOB encountering the Lords presence        the floods and dry  places      , These signs are  for our benefit  , to make us LOOK  beyond ourselves     and small world      into a much bigger and vaster    GOD OF GLORY IN POWER

As some just pass it off as  chaos  in the weather     , but every generation has its tribulation    times and are birthing pangs     to reveal the sons of Glory  to God 
Jesus is the reward  !!

micah7:9

#5
April 23, 2015, 06:27:19 PM
" if everyone is going to be saved, then wouldn't that make the sacrifices of all the martyrs (such as those beheaded by ISIS) for nothing?"

No.

Isa 29:18 And the deaf will hear, in that day, the words of a scroll, and from gloom, and from darkness, blind eyes shall see,
Isa 29:19 and the humble will continue to rejoice in Yahweh, and the needy of humanity will exult in the Holy One of Israel."
Isa 29:20 For the limit will be reached by the terrifier, and finished will be the mocker, and cut off will be all alert for lawlessness,
Isa 42:7 to unclose the eyes that are blind, to bring forth the prisoner from his enclosure, and those dwelling in darkness from the house of detention."

Isa 42:16  And I have caused the blind to go, In a way they have not known, In paths they have not known I cause them to tread, I make a dark place before them become light, And unlevelled places become a plain, These are the things I have done to them,  And I have not forsaken them. :dsunny:

Seth

#6
April 23, 2015, 06:28:42 PM
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on April 23, 2015, 07:31:52 AM
Hello all,

Another argument that people use against Universal salvation is the notion that "if everyone is going to be saved, then wouldn't that make the sacrifices of all the martyrs (such as those beheaded by ISIS) for nothing?" How would you respond to that notion?

Thanks in advance,

SFTT

I think people wouldn't say that if they understood what we are saved from: sin. If you read Romans 1 you'll see a whole list of examples like "they are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips slanderers, God haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful." Sin.

The sacrifice is to bring 1) forgiveness of sin 2) salvation from sin through the resurrection (the Spirit).

Seth

#7
April 23, 2015, 07:24:27 PM
I think I misunderstood the question. You're talking about the sacrifice of the martyrs.

To me it sounds like the objection is based on the idea that the martyrs earned salvation and the others did not, so the martyrs are more deserving based on their own actions?

Seth

#8
April 23, 2015, 07:38:08 PM
I guess I would refer them to the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16), or the Prodigal Son where the faithful son complained about the same thing but was reprimanded by his father.

sheila

#9
April 23, 2015, 08:23:02 PM
  good points all.  What really touches me about it all..when I think on the prophets and saints..and Jesus,the disciples and believers...

.....that died for their testimony.  Is their great love for the words of truth given them to speak of the  Spirit...and their great love

  that was manifested to their brothers[even the scoffers] that needed to hear these things from the Lord.

    there these were....a testimony unto Christ..in the midst of those who seek to cause the Holy one of Israel to cease before us.......

     
   Free gift...what's the point?.....ten lepers healed..only one turned back to give thanks and praise.

    the only daughter of her mother...new Jerusalem...the daughter of Jerusalem above.

         

marie glen

#10
April 23, 2015, 08:35:13 PM
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on April 23, 2015, 07:31:52 AM
Hello all,

Another argument that people use against Universal salvation is the notion that "if everyone is going to be saved, then wouldn't that make the sacrifices of all the martyrs (such as those beheaded by ISIS) for nothing?" How would you respond to that notion?

Thanks in advance,

SFTT

    :Chinscratch: curious argument.. I don't think U.R. lessens the desires of the enemies to kill believers.. besides, the importance of the message is still the same.. not urgency to avoid ET or EA, but the urgency to fully understand that wandering away from God's Will results in death/nonlife.. And always will. How better to have the life and world He gives appreciated with joy and gratitude, than to compare it to life as we presently know it on planet earth, and as compared to the horrors of human history?

The idea that the urgency is to avoid `hell` or annihilation is a presumed urgency.. Tho it iS urgent, that w/o God's Great Plan of Salvation we aLL would perish.. Jn 3:16, due to being/finding ourselves imperfect/sinners/not in His Perfect Will in all things..
   
Repentance will (still) have its fruit of deep regret and weeping. It's not a 'free' ride...
    :smile:
"I will draw ALL to Me." [Jesus, Jn.12:32] Written in the pattern of the Holy Days? an image - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com
Enter The Story Annual Reading Schedule ~ https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html

dajomaco

#11
April 23, 2015, 08:38:29 PM
Everyone dies.
The way people live is more important than the way people die.
To live with the Holy Spirit of God is to have a full life.
To die while filled with the spirit is to not really die in a sence.

marie glen

#12
April 23, 2015, 08:53:01 PM
Quote from: Seth on April 23, 2015, 06:28:42 PM

I think people wouldn't say that if they understood what we are saved from: sin. If you read Romans 1 you'll see a whole list of examples like "they are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips slanderers, God haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful." Sin.

The sacrifice is to bring 1) forgiveness of sin 2) salvation from sin through the resurrection (the Spirit).

..that's the urgency..  (deliverance from the true `hell`? sin is death.)

Quote from: Seth on April 23, 2015, 07:38:08 PM
I guess I would refer them to the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16), or the Prodigal Son where the faithful son complained about the same thing but was reprimanded by his father.

  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote from: sheila on April 23, 2015, 08:23:02 PM
  good points all.  What really touches me about it all..when I think on the prophets and saints..and Jesus,the disciples and believers...

.....that died for their testimony.  Is their great love for the words of truth given them to speak of the  Spirit...and their great love

  that was manifested to their brothers[even the scoffers] that needed to hear these things from the Lord.

    there these were....a testimony unto Christ..in the midst of those who seek to cause the Holy one of Israel to cease before us.......

     
   Free gift...what's the point?.....ten lepers healed..only one turned back to give thanks and praise.

    the only daughter of her mother...new Jerusalem...the daughter of Jerusalem above.
         

     good answers all, I agree.. and what a paradox , that persecution makes the gospel spread..

And I agree with Rose that the beast is rising (more intently)
"I will draw ALL to Me." [Jesus, Jn.12:32] Written in the pattern of the Holy Days? an image - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com
Enter The Story Annual Reading Schedule ~ https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html

Lazarus Short

#13
April 23, 2015, 10:42:08 PM
Quote from: Seth on April 23, 2015, 07:24:27 PM
I think I misunderstood the question. You're talking about the sacrifice of the martyrs.

To me it sounds like the objection is based on the idea that the martyrs earned salvation and the others did not, so the martyrs are more deserving based on their own actions?

Salvation is for all, in the end/ultimately, BUT the martyrs go in to the Kingdom in a better order (Barley Harvest) than their persecutors (Grape Harvest).
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

Seth

#14
April 23, 2015, 11:55:46 PM
I don't believe there will be differences like that after all things are restored.

Lazarus Short

#15
April 24, 2015, 01:31:00 AM
Quote from: Seth on April 23, 2015, 11:55:46 PM
I don't believe there will be differences like that after all things are restored.

That is very  likely, when God is All in all.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

YHVH = Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand = Jesus

Searching_For_The_Truth

#16
April 24, 2015, 02:58:52 AM
Quote from: Seth on April 23, 2015, 07:24:27 PM
I think I misunderstood the question. You're talking about the sacrifice of the martyrs.

To me it sounds like the objection is based on the idea that the martyrs earned salvation and the others did not, so the martyrs are more deserving based on their own actions?

Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to

marie glen

#17
April 24, 2015, 05:19:29 PM
 i was thinking, (part of) the "urgency" is the course of the world.. and deliverance from darkness (and its potential horrors) for the darkness w/o God and knowledge of God can become very dark indeed..

"The gentiles (nations) have seen a great light.."

..that light is salt.. it preserves

:eek: without The Light coming into the world, and also shining through His people (even when imperfect) throughout the generations since, I believe the world would have descended into deepest darkness long ago..

"I will draw ALL to Me." [Jesus, Jn.12:32] Written in the pattern of the Holy Days? an image - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com
Enter The Story Annual Reading Schedule ~ https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html

rosered

#18
April 24, 2015, 06:42:05 PM
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2015, 05:19:29 PM
i was thinking, (part of) the "urgency" is the course of the world.. and deliverance from darkness (and its potential horrors) for the darkness w/o God and knowledge of God can become very dark indeed..

"The gentiles (nations) have seen a great light.."

..that light is salt.. it preserves

:eek: without The Light coming into the world, and also shining through His people (even when imperfect) throughout the generations since, I believe the world would have descended into deepest darkness long ago..



Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it is God whom does the calling and choosing , no man comes to the Father unless drawn  [John  6 ]...43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.

44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

and I will raise him up on the last day.

45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me....

  I believe that  ,'' many are called out of the world/darkness  ''

Many called  ,   and God  looking in their hearts  and than many loosing heart /desire  ,  few chosen, Jesus said many times, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear" (Matthew 11:15; Mark 4:9; Luke 8:8, 14:35).

The point is that everyone has ears, but only a few are listening and responding.

Not everyone who hears the gospel receives it but only the "few" who have ears to hear.

The "many" hear,  but as the parable says,'' make excuses''. The worldly things distract .  Paul speaks of a place that   says  don't become discouraged .

Many are called or invited into the kingdom, but none are able to come on their own.

God must draw the hearts of those who come; otherwise they will not (John 6:44).

Many die in faith  , Just as the   ones of old  , Hebrews 11 , they had the Light of Christ/anointing  in them

They also  experienced Gods presence    [Holy Spirit witness ]

  I believe the martyrs    are  called  and chosen for this very purpose of God

They do not die for nothing or in vain ...  but prove the point  that men loved darkness more than the Light   , showing that their   deeds /acts are evil
  They want to destroy   the Light   in  every man but the FATHER IS WITH THEM being that LIGHT

Matt 10 27"What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light;



and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.


28"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the LIFE ;

but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both life  and body in Gehenna .

29"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father....

   
Jesus is the reward  !!

Tom

#19
April 25, 2015, 01:02:37 AM
Christ's resurrection was proof of the power of God's love to overcome death. Scripture says death is the result of sin, not torture in fire forever, and all mankind will have immortality. Martyrdom manifests the ultimate faith in God that death is not the end, and immortality is coming.   

marie glen

#20
April 25, 2015, 01:45:33 AM
Quote from: Tom on April 25, 2015, 01:02:37 AM
Christ's resurrection was proof of the power of God's love to overcome death. Scripture says death is the result of sin, not torture in fire forever, and all mankind will have immortality. Martyrdom manifests the ultimate faith in God that death is not the end, and immortality is coming.

:thumbsup: :hithere: Amen, amen!!

Quote from: rosered on April 24, 2015, 06:42:05 PM


yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father....

 

It is comforting to know that He is always with His own, especially at such a time..

   "none are able to come on their own" - You said it!! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
"I will draw ALL to Me." [Jesus, Jn.12:32] Written in the pattern of the Holy Days? an image - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com
Enter The Story Annual Reading Schedule ~ https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html

dajomaco

#21
April 25, 2015, 09:34:17 PM
Quote from: Tom on April 25, 2015, 01:02:37 AM
Christ's resurrection was proof of the power of God's love to overcome death. Scripture says death is the result of sin, not torture in fire forever, and all mankind will have immortality. Martyrdom manifests the ultimate faith in God that death is not the end, and immortality is coming.

:iagree:

rosered

#23
April 26, 2015, 12:41:59 AM
 :2thumbs:
Jesus is the reward  !!
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