Tentmaker Forum

Hello all,

Another argument that people use against Universal salvation is the notion that "if everyone is going to be saved, then wouldn't that make the sacrifices of all the martyrs (such as those beheaded by ISIS) for nothing?" How would you respond to that notion?

Thanks in advance,

SFTT

We don't serve Him to avoid hell or gain favor.  We serve Him because we know Him and because His love compels/constrains us (2 Cor. 5:14).  He's alive in us and gives us strength to stand for Him, so we can do nothing less than be faithful when "called upon the carpet" for Him;  His work within us.  It's the relationship.

True love gives and sacrifices, even to the point of death.  Death is just the next step into His presence (2 Cor. 5:8).

"Though God slay me yet I'll trust Him" - Job.

Read Fox's Book of Martyrs, and you'll soon see your answer in the contrast between the persecuter and the persecuted.  There is such a Spirit shining through in those who are being slaughtered like sheep every day, that it is almost a sacrament on their part.  They are vindicated, the world is condemned, and God is glorified by such events.  It is odd that it should be so, but it is.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 23, 2015, 11:06:09 AM
Read Fox's Book of Martyrs, and you'll soon see your answer in the contrast between the persecuter and the persecuted.  There is such a Spirit shining through in those who are being slaughtered like sheep every day, that it is almost a sacrament on their part.  They are vindicated, the world is condemned, and God is glorified by such events.  It is odd that it should be so, but it is.

:thumbsup:           

  blessed in the sight of the Lord are the death of his holy/godly  ones [saints ]Psalms 116 

He Listens to My Voice
...14I shall pay my vows to the LORD, Oh may it be in the presence of all His people.

15 Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His godly ones.

16O LORD, surely I am Your servant, I am Your servant, the son of Your handmaid, You have loosed my bonds....

slaughter all the day long   ,   here is a few key verses as to Why and how even this is glorifying God  in the earth as it is in heaven   for an eternal glory  ..life and death are ours ......... as the world   becomes more wicked  /lawlessness increases  so does the grace of God even more so    .. this is the UR stance  in my opinion     
  the signs of the times   and seasons     smoke and  Acts 2 ...18EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy


. 19'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE. 20'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME....



Romans 8 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."


37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us....

Psalm 44:11
You gave us up to be devoured like sheep and have scattered us among the nations.

Psalm 44:22
Yet for your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

Acts 20:24
However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me--the task of testifying to the good news of God's grace.

1 Corinthians 4:9
For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings.

1 Corinthians 15:30
And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?

1 Corinthians 15:31
I face death every day--yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Corinthians 1:9
Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead.

2 Corinthians 4:10
We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.

2 Corinthians 6:9
known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed;

2 Corinthians 11:23
Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again.

Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ--yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

   For  me ,  we are well on on way to   perilous times   , I am convinced   the govt  will be setting up marshal law soon ,   as to the Ferguson  Missouri thing is a start   in the U.S    to be blunt and   the   balloon effect of   paper money holding NO value  a big collapse     of this  poor economy     etc ..
  Get ready for some    rubber meeting the road   proof
  Not trying to instill   fear , but we need to prepare ourselves for some rough times  a head     and to die  is gain in the Lord   

  the beast is rising  its ugly head      :2c:

  This will be scary to the human aspect  of things happening
  But the   ones  whom the Holy Spirit has  been teaching   , they will know   whats  going on in their generation , just as the generations past have seen corruption   

I know the  great earthquake  of Chile  is a  great column  of  smoke with fire and a  dark cloud that covers the Light /Sun    same thing Abram  saw  when the Lord was dealing with him and  described it   , we have this technology    now      and worldly wisdom that defuses a lot of the meanings
Same as the whirlwind / TORNADO  of JOB encountering the Lords presence        the floods and dry  places      , These signs are  for our benefit  , to make us LOOK  beyond ourselves     and small world      into a much bigger and vaster    GOD OF GLORY IN POWER

As some just pass it off as  chaos  in the weather     , but every generation has its tribulation    times and are birthing pangs     to reveal the sons of Glory  to God 

" if everyone is going to be saved, then wouldn't that make the sacrifices of all the martyrs (such as those beheaded by ISIS) for nothing?"

No.

Isa 29:18 And the deaf will hear, in that day, the words of a scroll, and from gloom, and from darkness, blind eyes shall see,
Isa 29:19 and the humble will continue to rejoice in Yahweh, and the needy of humanity will exult in the Holy One of Israel."
Isa 29:20 For the limit will be reached by the terrifier, and finished will be the mocker, and cut off will be all alert for lawlessness,
Isa 42:7 to unclose the eyes that are blind, to bring forth the prisoner from his enclosure, and those dwelling in darkness from the house of detention."

Isa 42:16  And I have caused the blind to go, In a way they have not known, In paths they have not known I cause them to tread, I make a dark place before them become light, And unlevelled places become a plain, These are the things I have done to them,  And I have not forsaken them. :dsunny:

Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on April 23, 2015, 07:31:52 AM
Hello all,

Another argument that people use against Universal salvation is the notion that "if everyone is going to be saved, then wouldn't that make the sacrifices of all the martyrs (such as those beheaded by ISIS) for nothing?" How would you respond to that notion?

Thanks in advance,

SFTT

I think people wouldn't say that if they understood what we are saved from: sin. If you read Romans 1 you'll see a whole list of examples like "they are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips slanderers, God haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful." Sin.

The sacrifice is to bring 1) forgiveness of sin 2) salvation from sin through the resurrection (the Spirit).

I think I misunderstood the question. You're talking about the sacrifice of the martyrs.

To me it sounds like the objection is based on the idea that the martyrs earned salvation and the others did not, so the martyrs are more deserving based on their own actions?

I guess I would refer them to the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16), or the Prodigal Son where the faithful son complained about the same thing but was reprimanded by his father.

  good points all.  What really touches me about it all..when I think on the prophets and saints..and Jesus,the disciples and believers...

.....that died for their testimony.  Is their great love for the words of truth given them to speak of the  Spirit...and their great love

  that was manifested to their brothers[even the scoffers] that needed to hear these things from the Lord.

    there these were....a testimony unto Christ..in the midst of those who seek to cause the Holy one of Israel to cease before us.......

     
   Free gift...what's the point?.....ten lepers healed..only one turned back to give thanks and praise.

    the only daughter of her mother...new Jerusalem...the daughter of Jerusalem above.

         

Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on April 23, 2015, 07:31:52 AM
Hello all,

Another argument that people use against Universal salvation is the notion that "if everyone is going to be saved, then wouldn't that make the sacrifices of all the martyrs (such as those beheaded by ISIS) for nothing?" How would you respond to that notion?

Thanks in advance,

SFTT

    :Chinscratch: curious argument.. I don't think U.R. lessens the desires of the enemies to kill believers.. besides, the importance of the message is still the same.. not urgency to avoid ET or EA, but the urgency to fully understand that wandering away from God's Will results in death/nonlife.. And always will. How better to have the life and world He gives appreciated with joy and gratitude, than to compare it to life as we presently know it on planet earth, and as compared to the horrors of human history?

The idea that the urgency is to avoid `hell` or annihilation is a presumed urgency.. Tho it iS urgent, that w/o God's Great Plan of Salvation we aLL would perish.. Jn 3:16, due to being/finding ourselves imperfect/sinners/not in His Perfect Will in all things..
   
Repentance will (still) have its fruit of deep regret and weeping. It's not a 'free' ride...
    :smile:

Everyone dies.
The way people live is more important than the way people die.
To live with the Holy Spirit of God is to have a full life.
To die while filled with the spirit is to not really die in a sence.

Quote from: Seth on April 23, 2015, 06:28:42 PM

I think people wouldn't say that if they understood what we are saved from: sin. If you read Romans 1 you'll see a whole list of examples like "they are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips slanderers, God haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful." Sin.

The sacrifice is to bring 1) forgiveness of sin 2) salvation from sin through the resurrection (the Spirit).

..that's the urgency..  (deliverance from the true `hell`? sin is death.)

Quote from: Seth on April 23, 2015, 07:38:08 PM
I guess I would refer them to the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16), or the Prodigal Son where the faithful son complained about the same thing but was reprimanded by his father.

  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote from: sheila on April 23, 2015, 08:23:02 PM
  good points all.  What really touches me about it all..when I think on the prophets and saints..and Jesus,the disciples and believers...

.....that died for their testimony.  Is their great love for the words of truth given them to speak of the  Spirit...and their great love

  that was manifested to their brothers[even the scoffers] that needed to hear these things from the Lord.

    there these were....a testimony unto Christ..in the midst of those who seek to cause the Holy one of Israel to cease before us.......

     
   Free gift...what's the point?.....ten lepers healed..only one turned back to give thanks and praise.

    the only daughter of her mother...new Jerusalem...the daughter of Jerusalem above.
         

     good answers all, I agree.. and what a paradox , that persecution makes the gospel spread..

And I agree with Rose that the beast is rising (more intently)

Quote from: Seth on April 23, 2015, 07:24:27 PM
I think I misunderstood the question. You're talking about the sacrifice of the martyrs.

To me it sounds like the objection is based on the idea that the martyrs earned salvation and the others did not, so the martyrs are more deserving based on their own actions?

Salvation is for all, in the end/ultimately, BUT the martyrs go in to the Kingdom in a better order (Barley Harvest) than their persecutors (Grape Harvest).

I don't believe there will be differences like that after all things are restored.

Quote from: Seth on April 23, 2015, 11:55:46 PM
I don't believe there will be differences like that after all things are restored.

That is very  likely, when God is All in all.

Quote from: Seth on April 23, 2015, 07:24:27 PM
I think I misunderstood the question. You're talking about the sacrifice of the martyrs.

To me it sounds like the objection is based on the idea that the martyrs earned salvation and the others did not, so the martyrs are more deserving based on their own actions?

Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to

 i was thinking, (part of) the "urgency" is the course of the world.. and deliverance from darkness (and its potential horrors) for the darkness w/o God and knowledge of God can become very dark indeed..

"The gentiles (nations) have seen a great light.."

..that light is salt.. it preserves

:eek: without The Light coming into the world, and also shining through His people (even when imperfect) throughout the generations since, I believe the world would have descended into deepest darkness long ago..

Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2015, 05:19:29 PM
i was thinking, (part of) the "urgency" is the course of the world.. and deliverance from darkness (and its potential horrors) for the darkness w/o God and knowledge of God can become very dark indeed..

"The gentiles (nations) have seen a great light.."

..that light is salt.. it preserves

:eek: without The Light coming into the world, and also shining through His people (even when imperfect) throughout the generations since, I believe the world would have descended into deepest darkness long ago..

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it is God whom does the calling and choosing , no man comes to the Father unless drawn  [John  6 ]...43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.

44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

and I will raise him up on the last day.

45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me....

  I believe that  ,'' many are called out of the world/darkness  ''

Many called  ,   and God  looking in their hearts  and than many loosing heart /desire  ,  few chosen, Jesus said many times, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear" (Matthew 11:15; Mark 4:9; Luke 8:8, 14:35).

The point is that everyone has ears, but only a few are listening and responding.

Not everyone who hears the gospel receives it but only the "few" who have ears to hear.

The "many" hear,  but as the parable says,'' make excuses''. The worldly things distract .  Paul speaks of a place that   says  don't become discouraged .

Many are called or invited into the kingdom, but none are able to come on their own.

God must draw the hearts of those who come; otherwise they will not (John 6:44).

Many die in faith  , Just as the   ones of old  , Hebrews 11 , they had the Light of Christ/anointing  in them

They also  experienced Gods presence    [Holy Spirit witness ]

  I believe the martyrs    are  called  and chosen for this very purpose of God

They do not die for nothing or in vain ...  but prove the point  that men loved darkness more than the Light   , showing that their   deeds /acts are evil
  They want to destroy   the Light   in  every man but the FATHER IS WITH THEM being that LIGHT

Matt 10 27"What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light;



and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.


28"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the LIFE ;

but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both life  and body in Gehenna .

29"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father....

   

Christ's resurrection was proof of the power of God's love to overcome death. Scripture says death is the result of sin, not torture in fire forever, and all mankind will have immortality. Martyrdom manifests the ultimate faith in God that death is not the end, and immortality is coming.   

Quote from: Tom on April 25, 2015, 01:02:37 AM
Christ's resurrection was proof of the power of God's love to overcome death. Scripture says death is the result of sin, not torture in fire forever, and all mankind will have immortality. Martyrdom manifests the ultimate faith in God that death is not the end, and immortality is coming.

:thumbsup: :hithere: Amen, amen!!

Quote from: rosered on April 24, 2015, 06:42:05 PM


yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father....

 

It is comforting to know that He is always with His own, especially at such a time..

   "none are able to come on their own" - You said it!! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

Quote from: Tom on April 25, 2015, 01:02:37 AM
Christ's resurrection was proof of the power of God's love to overcome death. Scripture says death is the result of sin, not torture in fire forever, and all mankind will have immortality. Martyrdom manifests the ultimate faith in God that death is not the end, and immortality is coming.

:iagree:

 :thumbsup:

 :2thumbs:

 :dsunny:

This is a REALLY TOUGH question!


I personally believe that Jesus warned of hes fathers WRATH towards all sin and literally "age lasting correction"



Age kolasting correction = Kolasis Aionios



I dont know much about Aramic. Aramic is actually split into atleast 2 or more differen versions. Not a really easy language to learn and to study anyway :eek:



I mean in Greek if you want to write = age lasting DESTRUCTION then that would be = Oletrhos Aionios



Or never ending TORMENT! That would be Timoria Aionios or Timorion Aidion!



I believe Jesus came here to warn us about hes fathers WRATH!



Then again...the Greek words used for wrath in the Book of revelation are Orge and Thumos. BOTH actually mean great passion and DESIRE!


"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God"

Deuteronomy 4:24



"for our "God is a consuming fire"

Hebrews 12:29



Jesus warned of a fiery furnace where there will be great pain and gnashing of teeth!



"If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out. It is better for you to enter into God's Kingdom with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna* of fire, 'where their WORM doesn't die, and the fire is not quenched.' For everyone will be SALTED WITH FIRE, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt."

Mark 9:47-49



"He answered them, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,  the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the children of the Kingdom; and the darnel weeds are the children of the evil one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. As therefore the darnel weeds are gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. "

Matthew 13:37-43




This MUST be the lake of fire John in revelation is talking about!


"Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be TORMENTED with FIRE and BRIMSTONE in the PRESENCE of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. The SMOKE OF THERE TORMENT goes up FOREVER AND EVER! They have NO REST day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. Here is the perseverance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Revelation:9-12



Please NOTE! The word "torment" here literally is Basanizo

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/basanizo.html



To REFINE something! Also what the WORMS & BRIMSTONE are related to!

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/12/141202-urban-insects-food-garbage-cities-animals-science

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/uses-of-sulfur.html



Personally i think it is related to THIS

"Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me; and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, behold, he comes!" says Yahweh of Armies. "But who can endure the day of his coming? And who will stand when he appears? For he is like a REFINERS FIRE, and like launderers' SOAP;and he will sit as a REFINER AND PURIFIER of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them as gold and silver; and they shall offer to Yahweh offerings in RIGHTEOUSNESS!"

Malachi 3:1-3



God here is LITERALLY threatening to wash the mouths of all the blasphemous unbelievers with SOAP!


http://www.buzzle.com/articles/sulfur-soap.html



Only hes soap if going to be 100% SULFUR and not the 3% thats in that man made product!



Anyway that verse also speaks of "refiners fire"



Then again...i could be WRONG! Maybe someone with knowledge of Aramic can help me to fill the holes :sigh: :dunno2:

I believe you did well, Jonesy

  the Wrath of God is on the prideful  and   found in Babylon , in my opinion , Jesus took care of death on the Cross   

   now Babylon  this last   thing    being ''idolatries      ''   of man mixing the truth with lies     has got to be  separated and refined by Fire      

  when the roots system was not destroyed  , but left in the earth   By God ,on purpose I believe ,   in the book of Daniel   
King Neb's head was  gold   and the image he made was gold
     now that fire of Gods correction  would  melt the elements and refine it  right ?
Making it pure    and the   junk  removed


   we have this image   of mankind by those  4  beastly   kingdoms that  are attached to   King Nebs head of God    with all them other   elements , being  bronze and iron and silver  & clay  ,    this image is    utterly   obliterated       by the Image   of Jesus Christ     Gods Son 


  His roots in the earth are    solid     and they are the tree of Life     and the tree of knowledge of good and evil is   replaced   by Jesus tree of Life   

metaphors again    ,     hard to explain   but we get the gist of it by   metaphore  speech     

  I live on a farm  have you ever seen  them set the  fields and trees on fire   for    plowing a new   field ? 

  this fire gets rid of  even the seeds  and all the weeds and its a control method   when you don't want to us ''poison ''   


I see the Bible as all connected    as ONE  BIG  picture of GOD  HIMSELF  in your minds eye , since you cannot see a Spirit   with a natural eye
But we know that is just what He is , because He says so .   :icon_flower: