I'm finally convinced that UR isn't true, God is NOT all loving

[thinktank]

About the topic of hell not being discussed by ETers, this is the epitome of dishonesty, especially when trying to portray such a God as all loving :thumbdown:

I noticed the same thing on other forums. For a while I followed TM people posting on City-Data. Whoever replies with torturous comment got high praise. The content of the post was not that important.

Yeah there are, Eters out there who make hell their core message, but if you take a look at the audio called stretson vs strange on tentmaker, the Et pastor on there, makes it clear that he tries not to focus on hell but rather on the love of God and the cross. I think this is what the majority of todays ET, churches are like and are not comfortable discussing ET. :2c:

[jabcat]

About the topic of hell not being discussed by ETers, this is the epitome of dishonesty, especially when trying to portray such a God as all loving :thumbdown:

I noticed the same thing on other forums. For a while I followed TM people posting on City-Data. Whoever replies with torturous comment got high praise. The content of the post was not that important.

Yeah there are, Eters out there who make hell their core message, but if you take a look at the audio called stretson vs strange on tentmaker, the Et pastor on there, makes it clear that he tries not to focus on hell but rather on the love of God and the cross. I think this is what the majority of todays ET, churches are like and are not comfortable discussing ET. :2c:

I agree.  There are some hardcore folks around who focus on it, but I believe the majority generally avoid mentioning it - unless they feel compelled to "make a point" for effect, then they'll say something like "we don't talk about it much anymore, but hell is real".

I do agree there certainly can be an intensity on discussion forums...

[jabcat]

Interesting that the link is to a fellow that believes in ET, but still debunks Bill Weise and has some good things to say about salvation.

James I think you should read the read of the site. :winkgrin: He's a very hardcore ET

Yes, that's why I say "interesting".  Although an ET'er, I believe he still has some good, helpful things to say, even debunking another ET'er...hmmm.  I just think most ET'ers would eat that up rather than debunk it.  I don't know, I'm generalizing and could be wrong.

[peacemaker]

Christianity is a term describing an institution or organization that promotes charity/love through donations.  An organ donor must be kept alive until the harvesting is completed, which is accomplished by informing the patron, especially, a regular customer that they are dead (keep in mind that this isn't about one who lays down his life for that of another).  It's about favor and protection (fire/life insurance) in exchange for certain services; freeing the slaves without relinquishing all legal claims, lording over their subordinates.

Two friends of ours who played on the worship team at a local church recently decided to leave. They were faced with ridicule from the pastor, "You're turning your back on me and God."  Claiming that their skin will burn-off, like that of a snake shedding its skin, over and over again for eternity, "You need to believe in the Hell that Jesus spoke of." Or else? I've heard this line of reasoning before. Let's see, if you don't believe you're going to this HELL FULL OF SNAKE SKINS, then you are going there FOR NOT BELIEVING IT!

"Common sense died, and this pastor failed to attend his own funeral."

Some people have thick membranes covering their organs, mostly between the hemispheres of the brain.
Shadow, you are not the only one who professes not in the name of Christianity which is derived from the souls of men, not the SPIRIT.

peacemaker

[SteveW]

I didn't read all of the responses to Shadow's post but I have to say that the responses I did read were very moving and filled with love.  This board is a good place and reflects the love of God, many of you are truly ministers of the good news.

Isn't it nice to rest in the fact that despite any of our pain, doubts, failures, etc. that God is relentless in his love and will pursue each of us, including Shadow, until we find our place with him?  It makes it so much easier to feel and express empathy instead of judgment.

[shawn]

Thanks again for the replies, all  :HeartThrob:

onlytruth about my honesty, I've become so honest in my postings that I joined forums under my real name (when discussing christianity) and I call a spade a spade

I'm glad that you all love me, and I know that you are genuine :HeartThrob: , I love and appreciate you all too, although I no longer consider myself a christian, I guess that I still have a glimmer of hope that you are right, the problem is I truly don't know if UR is true, but I do know this much, URers and ETers do NOT worship the same God

Unfortunately, I'm unable to discern which one is correct, I feel as if I have to prepare myself for the worst, if ET is the truth I could NEVER worship it's God, most christians say that we just have to accept ET and if we don't we are not true christians, once you realize this fact, and the ET doctrine is the truth, then it's over

I thought I was making progress until I read and reviewed this book HERE, after an ETer argued with my review, I just went ice cold, it was then that I realized just how dear and cherished the ET doctrine is to ETers (I've changed my status back to theistic agnostic)

Card, I appreciate your prayers, but I don't think it's working (yet), the last 2.5 years have left a bitter taste in my mouth, and I just don't know what to do, ETers imply that we are scum worthy of damnation just for being born, God is supposed to be portrayed as a loving Father, even my earthly father doesn't think so little of me

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I don't see God as a loving father (at least not yet) :dontknow:

I think you debated your opinion quite well in that link.  I have been right where you are.  Shoot, I'm not that far removed from the frustration.  I guess how I came to peace with it is the fact that I have experienced the love of God in my own life.  The God I serve is a forgiving, long suffering and gracious God.  I believe he will work this all out for the good of mankind.  I don't know how it all works.  Today, I am ok with that.  I don't have to have it figured out to serve him.  I won't put God on trial.  With that realization came freedom to love God.  I don't believe God eternally tortures any man.  While I can't rule that out I don't see it lining up with a God who loves agape.

Sometimes I think studying this is an exercise in futility sent to me in order to teach me childlike faith.  I just trust my Daddy...Abba...Father and know I am in his hands.  Thinking about some of this stuff too much can make one crazy.  I believe that.

[LS]

Today, I am ok with that.  I don't have to have it figured out to serve him.  I won't put God on trial.  With that realization came freedom to love God.  ...Sometimes I think studying this is an exercise in futility sent to me in order to teach me childlike faith.  I just trust my Daddy...Abba...Father and know I am in his hands.  Thinking about some of this stuff too much can make one crazy.  I believe that.

amen ...

:grouppray:

[Universalist Catholic]

So eternal hell will continue to be believed by the masses until they gradually embrace the new change of no eternal hell.

What I meant was that ETers refer to themselves as born again christians and annihilationists as annihilationists and Urers as Urers, they refuse to acknowledge them as christians, some ETers even view URers as being worse than atheists, URers do accept ETers as christians though, as I cannot accept the ET POV, I accept the non-christian label given by ETers

About the topic of hell not being discussed by ETers, this is the epitome of dishonesty, especially when trying to portray such a God as all loving :thumbdown:

I see your still arguing with Eter's Shadow, I'm not suprised, habits are hard to break, I hope though you receive a revelation of the loving father in heaven.

I'm not arguing with ETers anymore, I did till recently, but not anymore as it's an exercise in futility, they are hard to avoid though, they always turn up like a bad penny unexpectedly
[/quote]

I sometimes wonder how many people honestly believe in Eternal Torment.  IF people did, than we would have a lot more evil people.  You become the god you worship.  Yet few carry those traits.

[Universalist Catholic]

Interesting that the link is to a fellow that believes in ET, but still debunks Bill Weise and has some good things to say about salvation.

James I think you should read the read of the site. :winkgrin: He's a very hardcore ET

Never was a fan of that Website.  It seems to represent a gospel of Hate and Judgment over mercy. 

[micah7:9]

All these boxes! :sigh:

[Universalist Catholic]

By the way, dont worry about what "Mack" says against the doctrine of Universal Salvation.  It has nothing to do with picking and choosing how to interpret the bible.  In fact, there are more "Proof texts" supporting Universal Salvation than Eternal Damnation.  Some people bark "Your taking those verses out of Context".  Really, I dont know how you can get any clearer than "All families on earth shall be blessed", "Every Knee shall bow", "Good news and great joy for all people", "In Adam all have died, in Christ all be made alive".  There are other ones.  But its pretty clear cut what they mean.  The verses they use as proof of Eternal Damnation such as "Eternal Fire", "Eternal Punishment", "Unquenchable Fire", "Worm that dieth not", "Wailing and Ghnashing of teeth", those are taken out of context.  First off, few are willing to study the ancient Hebrew and Greek to understand the true meaning.  They just trust the Church censored translations.  Why do you think that Fundamentalists only use the KJV? Cause they think its the absolute infallible word of God and not willing to research other bibles.  But it isnt rare for a hardcore traditionalist to believe this way.  They assume that Universalist believe in automatic Salvation without any price to pay.  Shows how much they know.  But I dont understand why they think the price needs to be Eternal.  If someone was under threat of temporary punishment, they arent going to commit the crime.  In retrospect, it does not have to be eternal to keep people from sinning.  Its best tp avoid close minded traditionalists.  They dont want to see anything but their way. 

[jabcat]

By the way, dont worry about what "Mack" says against the doctrine of Universal Salvation.  It has nothing to do with picking and choosing how to interpret the bible.  In fact, there are more "Proof texts" supporting Universal Salvation than Eternal Damnation.  Some people bark "Your taking those verses out of Context".  Really, I dont know how you can get any clearer than "All families on earth shall be blessed", "Every Knee shall bow", "Good news and great joy for all people", "In Adam all have died, in Christ all be made alive".  There are other ones.  But its pretty clear cut what they mean.  The verses they use as proof of Eternal Damnation such as "Eternal Fire", "Eternal Punishment", "Unquenchable Fire", "Worm that dieth not", "Wailing and Ghnashing of teeth", those are taken out of context.  First off, few are willing to study the ancient Hebrew and Greek to understand the true meaning.  They just trust the Church censored translations.  Why do you think that Fundamentalists only use the KJV? Cause they think its the absolute infallible word of God and not willing to research other bibles.  But it isnt rare for a hardcore traditionalist to believe this way.  They assume that Universalist believe in automatic Salvation without any price to pay.  Shows how much they know.  But I dont understand why they think the price needs to be Eternal.  If someone was under threat of temporary punishment, they arent going to commit the crime.  In retrospect, it does not have to be eternal to keep people from sinning.  Its best tp avoid close minded traditionalists.  They dont want to see anything but their way. 

Good post.

[Aleax]

Sadly, I came to the same conclusion yesterday as the original poster. ET sounds unjust but I believe it unfortunately is true.

I've been drifting in and out of Christianity time after time over the past 18 years. I've seriously lost the count on how many times I've tried to "repent". However, I have never been able to truly become Born Again. Yeah yeah, in the end of it I'm a depraved person who just wants to sin but in all honesty, there have always been 2 great stumbling blocks. The doctrine of ET has been preventing me from truly loving God and Armageddon being possibly always around the corner I haven't been able to ever make long term plans in life. I don't know how anyone is supposed to retain his sanity with beliefs like this. I'm under an impression most people don't. I definitely didn't. On coffee breaks at an ex-work place people would ask me "what you're gonna do when your contract with us ends? what you're gonna study?" and the first thing to come to mind was always something like "well, there's a good chance the world will end before my contract does"... 

Anyway I lost my final seed of hope yesterday. At some point I just started asking myself the question "who am I trying to fool?" Looking at the big picture I somehow fully realized UR is only faulty copy-paste theology and nothing more. All the UR passages are lifted out of context and made to say something they never said in the first place. God is Love, Love Never Fails. Sorry but I am not convinced. You could construct just about any kind of theology by cherry picking.

1) No murderer has eternal life.
2) God has murdered people.

So...

3) God has no eternal life.

Sorry to say but my belief is UR requires "tweaking". First we have to "explain away" A LOT OF STUFF. You could argue JW Hanson for example does a quite convincing job with that. Okay, even if I fully agreed with him I would still be only half way there. I'd still have to accept theological ideas that aren't found in the Bible. The scriptures speak of a Book of Life. There are many verses about removing names from there. Yet there is not a single verse about getting names written back in the Book. Likewise, there are many verses about the necessity of repentance in THIS LIFE but I haven't seen any verses about afterlife repentance.

However there is something I find, if possible, to be even more repulsive than the doctrine of ET itself. I happen to know A LOT OF people came to UR in their darkest hour. They were depressed, angsty, suicidal, totally desperate. Then they saw UR. Read the visitor's comments and the testimonies on this site. Read Gary Amirault's testimony.

Read "Heavenly Dog" by Charles Slagle and CONSIDER THIS

If ET is true then mr. Slagle wasn't visited by Heavenly Father but by the Dark One. And apparently God totally approved of that. This, to me, is just as egregious as it gets. It's like adding insult to injury. What kind of a crappy father this God is? His children are in great agony, asking for bread and not only he has Satan give them a stone but also he tricks people in believing the stone is actually bread given by God. I just cannot for the life of me muster out of myself love towards this kind of God. "You dislike rejoicing in my righteous judgments, huh? Okay, I let Satan have you then!" Is He really THAT indifferent?!?!?

The final nail in my coffin was driven yesterday. I was reading through a UR rebuttal and there author himself (who seems to be an advanced Christian who says he hears God's voice audibly) stated he once said to God "Everything about your plan is perfect but eternal torment is totally wrong." Then God gave him a vision of good and rotten apples and asked him "Would you really think it would be just to put all these apples into the same basket?" It was after this vision the author gained peace with the ET doctrine.

However, it was after reading this account I lost whatever hope I might've had in ET possibly not being true. I know it's just one account but there's a limit to how much you are able to take that kind of stuff. I went to town and drank myself silly. I just didn't care anymore. I probably couldn't have been more drunk if I had tried. I lost my memory partially but the worst thing is when I came home I spent several hours cursing God, Jesus and Holy Spirit in every conceivable and inconceivable way. I had never felt such hate toward anyone before. I went on until I passed out.

In the morning I felt 100% spiritually dead. It was truly an indescricable feeling. The whole day at work I just tried to hold back the tears, not succeeding. I had to go to the restroom to cry several times. I've never in my life felt so utterly miserable and horrible. I knew I had passed the point of no return. I had committed the unpardonable sin.

No use praying for me. The Spirit has left me and my name is forever blotted out from the Book of Life. I'm definitely a lost case. I believe God gave me a thousand chances over the last 18 years, all of which I blew. I was just being an "overly sentimental fool" who couldn't accept ET and that God's thoughts aren't my thoughts. I guess at the Judgment we all will made understand why ET is Perfectly Just and that every ungodly person truly deserves it. But then it will be too late.

I see myself committing suicide one day when I'm ready for it. I'm utterly sick and tired of everything. I tried, I struggled and I failed. Then again maybe I never really tried. Maybe I loved the short-lived pleasures of sin so much I was willing to wager my eternal destiny. I can only blame myself. Eternal Torchery, here I come.

[jabcat]

Father, help this brother know that God is Love.  We don't understand all Your ways, but You've told us You are only good.  Help us to simply trust;  with the trust of a little child.  In Jesus' name.

[Quaesitor]

Oh God show your unfailling love to this child of yours, fill him with mercy and peace in Jesus' name!
Aleax, I pray that the only thing that's dead inside of you is that religious et desperate flesh, be reborn by the Spirit of life and discover the abundant life that Jesus gave us by His death on the cross!

[coldwar]

Aleax,
I am saying "amen" to the two prayers above, but I'm not going to pray. Instead, I want to say to you to take your time, lots of time if you need it, and just keep some things you already know close to your heart:

1) God said - "God will not always chide with man, nor keep His anger forever" (Psalm 103:9). This means two things- God was, or even still is angry with mankind- all of us, and there will come a point when His anger will cease- with all of us. In fact that might have already happened, as Jesus said "now is the judgment of this world"- speaking of the death he knew he would die.

2) If He is not willing that anyone should perish, then He is not willing that you will perish. You are engaged in the middle of a fight to the death for your soul, but you know deep down the One who is fighting on your side- that is the God who will ultimately win- the Jesus who has already won! Just because you "feel" like satan has ultimately won your soul forever does not mean he has done.

3) You say you got drunk and cursed God every which way but loose, and have committed the unpardonable sin. Not so. Jesus was very clear what the unpardonable sin was- to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan, and that isn't what you did.

4) None of us here want you to take your own life, but if you do, that isn't the unpardonable sin either- see point 3 above! But- please don't do it! God's not finished with you here yet! (My wife suffers terribly from manic-depression, and hardly a day goes by that I don't have to remind her of this very same thing). I've heard of people who "get drunk and curse God" but it seems like these turn out to be the ones that God loves most and ultimately become His mightiest over-comers. Remember- He'd rather have cold or hot, but doesn't care much for the lukewarm Laodicean church-goers. 

5) Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord. This victorious time will include you too!

I don't want to say anything else right now- you may be seething with rage against me, or maybe not... but from reading your post of despair, two things are apparent- you're very intelligent, and you know your Bible well. Eventually God will knit these together into a totally renewed spirit- you'll see it happen, and we will be rejoicing with you!

[shawn]

Aleax,

I consider myself a recovering everything...alcoholic, drug addict, eternal torment believer, liar, etc and the list goes on and on and on.  I know what it's like to live under the law and the weight of ET belief.  I know depression, despair and suicidal ideation.  I never measured up.  I loathed myself and I just knew God had given up on me.  I have been right where you are standing.  Your pain is very tangable to me and I hurt for you tonight.

I truly believe ET is a lie.  Ask yourself does it make sense?  The answer is no...it makes zero sense.  The Bible makes zero sense with ET belief as it's backbone.  I would be very concerned about you if it did make sense to you.  Then ask yourself why do you hang onto it.  Has it brought you peace?  Has it brought you joy?  Do you believe you are in danger of hellfire for believing something other than ET?  Does it bring you anxiety to buck tradition and scholarly theologians?  Join the crowd.  It was hard for me to release it.  But, remember that's exactly what Jesus did.  He bucked traditional theological thinking...scolded the learned and called them a den of vipers.

I believe today is your day to finally free yourself of ET and finally love God and accept his unconditional love for you.  When you begin to see yourself how God sees you...well the drink, depression, anxiety will leave you.

[Lefein]

...Even rotten apples contain good seed if God is the one planting them.

Who am I to be better than the rotten apple?  I too am rotten, I was rotten, my body is rotten, and rot it shall.  Only the seed of Christ within my worm infested walking corpse, is what makes me worthy to be in his harvest.  If God can pull me off the ground, a foul, rotten, hideous, worm riddled fruit!  And make me half decent, and better; Glorify me from the inside out...Then by God (literally) he can do it for every apple on that tree!

If ET is real, and this thing of "free will choice to choose God = salvation" thing is real by that mark...Then in Heaven I hope by my free-will to refuse all fellowship with such gloating, fat, dirty saints who revel in the Hell of their fellow man...who are only in Heaven by the literal skin of their confessing teeth.  I want no part of a glorified congregation made into coliseum spectators.

If ET is real, I will merely have to bow, and reverence the High Tyrant, who by some Olympian whim decided to pluck me out of my doom, to set me on a high mountain and watch as he casts down a vast score of humanity's tree into a form of barbarity unspeakable.  Whilst my deathless brothers surround, and laugh upon them through their glearing grins; these bastard-white saints, who deserve that same Hell just as much as I.  For it has been said: "Hell is there, so the saints will enjoy Heaven more".

If ET is real, then I beg the King who damned his creation...Do not let my tears be wiped away!  Let me cry forever, so that eventually the drops from my face will fill all of Hell and quench that fire at last...At least some one will care enough about them to show the unfailing love that you insisted we have.  I wouldn't want to enjoy Heaven anyway, how could I enjoy play in pearled glory while the multitudes below me scream so cruelly?

If ET is real, then my given glory is a joke, and cruel one at that.  Because if God can't do, or won't do what he says he will for All, then I cannot trust him to do what he said he will do for me.  Trust is the foundation of Love, and if I cannot trust God, how can I love him?  If I cannot love God...There is no love in me, for God is Love, and God would not be in me, and I would then be damned in turn to that very Eternal Torment, being a rotten apple, and not having the seed of Christ in me.

If ET is real, then I can only hope that Heaven has a long tab of drink, by which I can drown forever my sorrow, and forget it all.

If ET is real, how can the loving touch of Christ's hand on my shoulder be received as anything but the touch of a cruel father, who with the same hand that flung the blood of billions into never-ending hideousy, would try and tell me that he loves me?  That I can trust him, that he'll take care of me?

What wife would trust their husband to love them, after seeing him commit genocide?  Even of the wicked?  Death without end, without purpose, without remedial gain...simple vindictive torture forever...?

What daughter, after seeing the hands of her father strangle a man who rejected him, and strangle him again, and again, and again, torturing him with burning hands...Would that daughter not scream and flee when those same hands try to reach down to pick her up?

...Such hypocrisy...

God is no hypocrite, God is Infinite Love.

[eaglesway]

What Christ has done for me, He has done for all- I am saved by grace through faith, and that not of myself, it is the gift of God- lest anyman should boast.

For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He might have mercy on ALL.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1Jn 2:1-2)

If ET is true, then I am indeed accursed and mad, but joyfully so, for in my vision I see the whole creation rejoicing in harmony and love, God being all in all- by that self same grace, a gift from the one who is making all things new.

If Jesus is not making all things new why did He say He is!

[chuckt]

Thanks for the replies people :bgdance: , this seems to be the only board that I can post on without bringing it to silence for 3 or more hours :dontknow:

I'm particularly touched that you would still want me, even although I'm a deconvert, I don't disbelieve in God and Jesus, the love I had has waxed ice cold and I honestly don't know what to do, I don't feel as if prayer will make a difference as everything is set in stone anyway :sigh:

everyone here i think has sruggeled with quiting churchanity and not quiting with God.

have you read martin zenders book, quiting church without quiting God?

well, i struggled in the wilderness for 14 yrs and thought i quit God, but he didnt quit me, so HANG IN THERE.....

peace
chuckt

[shawn]

...Even rotten apples contain good seed if God is the one planting them.

Who am I to be better than the rotten apple?  I too am rotten, I was rotten, my body is rotten, and rot it shall.  Only the seed of Christ within my worm infested walking corpse, is what makes me worthy to be in his harvest.  If God can pull me off the ground, a foul, rotten, hideous, worm riddled fruit!  And make me half decent, and better; Glorify me from the inside out...Then by God (literally) he can do it for every apple on that tree!

If ET is real, and this thing of "free will choice to choose God = salvation" thing is real by that mark...Then in Heaven I hope by my free-will to refuse all fellowship with such gloating, fat, dirty saints who revel in the Hell of their fellow man...who are only in Heaven by the literal skin of their confessing teeth.  I want no part of a glorified congregation made into coliseum spectators.

If ET is real, I will merely have to bow, and reverence the High Tyrant, who by some Olympian whim decided to pluck me out of my doom, to set me on a high mountain and watch as he casts down a vast score of humanity's tree into a form of barbarity unspeakable.  Whilst my deathless brothers surround, and laugh upon them through their glearing grins; these bastard-white saints, who deserve that same Hell just as much as I.  For it has been said: "Hell is there, so the saints will enjoy Heaven more".

If ET is real, then I beg the King who damned his creation...Do not let my tears be wiped away!  Let me cry forever, so that eventually the drops from my face will fill all of Hell and quench that fire at last...At least some one will care enough about them to show the unfailing love that you insisted we have.  I wouldn't want to enjoy Heaven anyway, how could I enjoy play in pearled glory while the multitudes below me scream so cruelly?

If ET is real, then my given glory is a joke, and cruel one at that.  Because if God can't do, or won't do what he says he will for All, then I cannot trust him to do what he said he will do for me.  Trust is the foundation of Love, and if I cannot trust God, how can I love him?  If I cannot love God...There is no love in me, for God is Love, and God would not be in me, and I would then be damned in turn to that very Eternal Torment, being a rotten apple, and not having the seed of Christ in me.

If ET is real, then I can only hope that Heaven has a long tab of drink, by which I can drown forever my sorrow, and forget it all.

If ET is real, how can the loving touch of Christ's hand on my shoulder be received as anything but the touch of a cruel father, who with the same hand that flung the blood of billions into never-ending hideousy, would try and tell me that he loves me?  That I can trust him, that he'll take care of me?

What wife would trust their husband to love them, after seeing him commit genocide?  Even of the wicked?  Death without end, without purpose, without remedial gain...simple vindictive torture forever...?

What daughter, after seeing the hands of her father strangle a man who rejected him, and strangle him again, and again, and again, torturing him with burning hands...Would that daughter not scream and flee when those same hands try to reach down to pick her up?

...Such hypocrisy...

God is no hypocrite, God is Infinite Love.

Wow.

:thumbsup:

[Aleax]

Thanks for the replies all.

And sorry about the outburst but seriously never in my life had I felt so utterly hopeless as on 29th and 30th. I'm a bit better now.

No, I'm not going to give up. At least not yet. I'll try to find out God's will for my life and act accordingly.

They say faith starts where the knowledge ends. So... I admit I can't KNOW the eternal destiny of mankind so all I can have is faith. I choose to have faith in God one day being All in All. I'm not sure whether I should take that as "All in everyone who ever existed" (UR) or "All in everyone who still remain" (ED) but for the sake of whatever is left of my sanity I really must abandon the doctrine of ET.

If I'm wrong, then well... I'm going to counter that "Depart from me for I never knew you!" with "Sir, all I can say is I wish I never knew you either".  :dontknow:

[shawn]

Thanks for the replies all.

And sorry about the outburst but seriously never in my life had I felt so utterly hopeless as on 29th and 30th. I'm a bit better now.

No, I'm not going to give up. At least not yet. I'll try to find out God's will for my life and act accordingly.

They say faith starts where the knowledge ends. So... I admit I can't KNOW the eternal destiny of mankind so all I can have is faith. I choose to have faith in God one day being All in All. I'm not sure whether I should take that as "All in everyone who ever existed" (UR) or "All in everyone who still remain" (ED) but for the sake of whatever is left of my sanity I really must abandon the doctrine of ET.

If I'm wrong, then well... I'm going to counter that "Depart from me for I never knew you!" with "Sir, all I can say is I wish I never knew you either".  :dontknow:

I think you are under the misperception that belief in UR would condemn you to eternal damnation (if ET was actually supported Biblically).  Even with traditional hellfire brimestone teaching your salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.  No where in the Bible have I read anything about us having to have it all figured out to make it into heaven.  Why would you believe otherwise?  I suspect you still believe this is about you.  Brother, this has nothing to do with you.  This is about the work of the Cross. 

Second, knowing God's will for your life?  What are you specifically looking for?  Your life's work?  Why you were born?  God's will for your life is to love him with all your heart, mind and soul.  God's will for your life is to love your neighbor as yourself.  That ALL starts with realizing who we are in Christ.  It ALL starts with knowing God really does love all of us!  God loves us just as we are.  He isn't a big meanie in the sky with a fly swatter waiting to squash ya.  He is our loving Father who gave his only begotten Son as payment for our sins.  The work is finished.  You have nothing more to do to earn your salvation.  It was completed on the Cross.  You can not earn your salvation.

With that in mind, from a grateful heart we serve, we bear fruit and die daily to the flesh.  Brother, that is a process and for me it started when I was broken.  It started for me "when I hit my bottom".  Don't become discouraged with the process.  Accept God's love for you and bask in it.  From that seed, your growth will produce fruit.

[Lefein]

Believing in UR will no more send you to Hell than you, or your child believing that your beloved pets will be in Heaven will send you to Hell.  :thumbsup:

(I believe in pet heaven too by the way :p, but I really do think the idea is applicable anyway)

I ask that God would bless you Aleax, and walk with you through this, as he has walked with me and so many others.  Everything God does is exceedingly, abundantly, and beyond our imagination.  And everything God does is good. *hugs*

[Universalist Catholic]

So you said that sinners will not enter the kingdom.  Thats true.  But nowhere does it say that one remains a sinner forever.  In fact, we are given clear evidence that we are being made righteous through Christ.