Tentmaker Forum

This will be my final post on here

I would like to thank the people on the site who have tried to help me and for the gentle responses given to my last post in a different thread, I'd like to believe that UR is true but no matter how hard I try I'm not convinced, as I feel I no longer have a place on this forum, I'd like my account to be deleted, I've requested it to be deleted before via the control panel on numerous accasions, but my requests have been ignored, so I'm making a public appeal, after this post I'm requesting the account to be deleted via the control panel, please honor my request this time

For over 2 years I've tried to hang on to the hope that somehow out there, there is a God that loves us, however the evidence I've seen thus far doesn't support this, it has in fact led to my deconversion, yes I've had to face the painful truth and realize that I'm an apostate and a deconvert, I realized this about a year ago and tried to fight it but I have to concede that I'm defeated, I can no longer honestly call myself a christian, as I could NEVER accept an eternal hell for mankind, people like Bill Weise and Mary Baxter started me towards the slippery slope of deconversion, I have since discovered other things that disprove an all loving, benevolent God

WHAT do I really believe


I believe that there's a God out there who hates most of us. A God who purposely wired us to where we would invoke his wrath. A God who gave us natural desires, yet condemns us for having them. A God who threatens to torch us for just being born. A God who sets us up so we'll fall, just so he can punish us. I believe that life is just a sick joke, where what is good to us is evil to God. I believe in a God who wants to trip us up so he can punish us when we fall. I believe that I'm damned without hope, yet God wants to torture me mentally with obsessive religious thoughts anyway, before he tortures me physically after I die. I don't like what I believe, but I believe it. :dontknow:

Thank goodness I already made the decision to NEVER have kids even as a christian, at least I'm not responsible for dragging another human being into this nightmare, I only wish other people would actually GRASP what their preacher are trying to tell them, like I did :sigh:

faith

I encourage you to keep your account so that you can express yourself in future, who knows what might be.
Where else are you gonna post a message like this?

No weapon formed against shadow prospers in Jesus name.

why don't you ask for prayer in the prayer section? Have you asked for prayer before?

Shadow,

Reqeust denied  :thumbsup:

Just stay a bit. Post your stuff in "Arguments against Universal Salvation"

Cheer up lady!

Shadow, I got your last request to delete your account, and sent you an email stating it could be deleted if you really wanted, but sent you some words of encouragement along with it.  Maybe you didn't see the email.

After that, I saw you back on TM, so figured you were in fact using your account.  Is there any harm in just keeping it?  You don't ever have to use it if you don't want to.  But if you do, then it's here.

James.

Thanks for the replies people :bgdance: , this seems to be the only board that I can post on without bringing it to silence for 3 or more hours :dontknow:

I'm particularly touched that you would still want me, even although I'm a deconvert, I don't disbelieve in God and Jesus, the love I had has waxed ice cold and I honestly don't know what to do, I don't feel as if prayer will make a difference as everything is set in stone anyway :sigh:

Don't listen to the lies.

Read the Word.

Quote from: Shadow on July 17, 2010, 12:19:30 AM
Thanks for the replies people :bgdance: , this seems to be the only board that I can post on without bringing it to silence for 3 or more hours :dontknow:

I'm particularly touched that you would still want me, even although I'm a deconvert, I don't disbelieve in God and Jesus, the love I had has waxed ice cold and I honestly don't know what to do, I don't feel as if prayer will make a difference as everything is set in stone anyway :sigh:

We all have doubts.  We all grow cold.  All who believe, do so with the faith that God provides.  We're all clay, looking for a better day.  He doesn't just sit back and watch us.  God gave us a piece of Himself, His own Son, Jesus, to be beaten, tempted, and crucified.    So He knows what we're going through and will redeem us.  He participates with us. 

(this is for me, too)  One day we'll look back and go, "ah, I understand, I get it.  It was for a purpose I didn't see at the time.  Thank You.  What I went through was just a tiny speck compared to this glory You've now given me."

Quote from: Shadow on July 17, 2010, 12:19:30 AMthe love I had has waxed ice cold

A little flame and the wax melts like a candle.

Quoteand I honestly don't know what to do,

In that case ask me for advise  :laughing7:
Stay. Stay. Stay.
Shadow put you avatar and signature back and participate...

QuoteI don't feel as if prayer will make a difference as everything is set in stone anyway

Then just don't pray. You can grow without prayer. Trust me on that.
Just start a thread, this one, to tell us why God hates us and UR is fake. I'm sure you will get answers.
And.... stay away from those fire and brimstone sites....

 :cloud9: Shadow you're always welcome here....we've all had struggles and gone thru doubts; been tested and tried like gold is refined. It's part of the process and it HURTS a lot sometimes.

But don't give up, the light is always at the end of the tunnel. I wish I could pray with you in person, but all I can do is pray in faith for you here. Know that you ARE cared about.  :HeartThrob:

Hi Shadow; I am fairly new here but I wanted to encourage you to stay, to hang in there, to keep seeking and knocking and asking.

I don't know your exact story, but I have at least two friends who went through great trials where everything they thought and believed about God was completely shattered. One labeled herself an ex-Christian for a long time and was very angry; the other was just sad. But gradually, God rebuilt their faith and beliefs entirely new. 

As I read your paragraph about what you believe, I had two thoughts.  The first, was going to the dentist.  Try explaining to a terrified child that the dentist, the pain, the discomfort are not torture and are not meant for punishment or evil ... it is completely land 100% meant for his own good, no matter how it appears at the time to his childlike mind!

Second, Cardinal posted a link to a video here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8375.msg99364#new). Have you watched it? Those things amaze me ... the so-called painting looks like utter chaos to me.  I can see by the title it will be an artwork of Jesus, but I can never see it as the painter works and progresses.  Until finally ... finally ... the mess and chaos make sense and a beautiful portrait emerges.

I know you are angry, I know you are in pain and suffering.  As much as you are able, try to stop the struggle; try to be still; try to listen.

You have many good hearts here praying for you  :grouppray:

Shadow...Don't go.

Whatever you think of God and the Bible at this time...Were your friends and we LOVE you.

Were all in this together.

God said He was the savior of ALL mankind, and we will be holding God to that promise...TOGETHER.  Do you (mod edit) hear me?

Love casts out fear girl.  Hang in there, and don't be afraid to love.

Shadow i made this video earlier...At the time I thot..."Maybe ive gone to far!!"

But this video is for you.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCuaT6-PfgY


See how STUPID the idea of 'hell' is?

Take a trip over to http://www.nderf.org/

and read about everyone's near death experience!  Wonderful stories from people who went through those things!  And they have BEEN there and DONE it! 

Everything will be ok, if you ever need to talk im here.

Jesus, Savior of the world, Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world. ALL will praise & confess that Jesus is Lord. All families and Nations will be blessed in HIM. He will draw all men. Where sin abounds grace abounds MORE. God is not willing that any perish, but wants all SAVED. HE is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works. Just LIKE all people died in Adam, ALL will be made alive in Christ.

 :cloud9: Amen, Marc and thanks for the link.... :thumbsup:

I hate seeing people give up.  Ive done it myself more than once.  We have to hang in there.  God is love.  The whole world has been deceived!  Satan decieves the WHOLE world!  We see through the glass darkly!  Of course things look rubbish here sometimes!  Thats what faith is all about!  Love always hopes ALWAYS PERSEVERES!  NEVER GIVES UP! NEVER COMES TO AN END.

Whatever you may be feeling right now about God..... He knows you and loves you as you are- after all, He created you in His image. He will wait for you, so will we. May grace and peace be multiplied unto you whether you stay or go, John

Been there and maybe there now, but this one thing I KNOW, you may quit "deconvert" but Praise His Wonderful Name He WILL not. There is a verse of scripture that has kept me holding on amidst much of what it sounds like you have allowed yourself to be made aware of by your friends(?)
Psa 90:3  Thou turnest man unto a bruised thing, And sayest, Turn back, ye sons of men.
You can go for time, cause time is His tool yet He, of a Truth, is the rudder. You are right where He desires you to be.
Ehp.6:13 ".. and all things having done--to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand, therefore,.."
He is your Peace, He is your Love, it is ONLY Through Him. JESUS

I'm so touched at the kind responses to my thread, truly I'm really seeing fruits of the spirit as stated in Galatians 5:22-23 on here, I'm moved to tears

Marcstalkspot, I'm glad you are back and thanks for those links, I downloaded the you tube video and have watched it, it's great and you have a great sense of humour :thumbsup:

Please forgive me, I suffer from OCD and GAD, and WW thanks for your advice, I will avoid those websites, I do however come across them accidentally

I'm also particularly touched by the believers in ED responding so gently to my post :HeartThrob:, usually non-URers are so judgmental and harsh

I just don't think I could bear it to finally embrace UR , only to find out it isn't true, I do however think there is more evidence for ED than ET though, although this isn't good news either, it's infinitely better than ET

Card, I only wished God would show me things like he does you :HeartThrob:

My friend you will be overwhelmed in what will be revealed to you when He brings you through this time of trouble.
Psa 13:1  For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. How long, O Jehovah? wilt thou forget me for ever? How long wilt thou hide thy face from me?
Psa 13:2  How long shall I take counsel in my soul, Having sorrow in my heart all the day? How long shall mine enemy be exalted over me?
Psa 13:3  Consider and answer me, O Jehovah my God: Lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psa 13:4  Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; Lest mine adversaries rejoice when I am moved.
Psa 13:5  But I have trusted in thy lovingkindness; My heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.
Psa 13:6  I will sing unto Jehovah, Because he hath dealt bountifully with me.

Quote from: Shadow on July 17, 2010, 08:15:21 AM
I'm so touched at the kind responses to my thread, truly I'm really seeing fruits of the spirit as stated in Galatians 5:22-23 on here, I'm moved to tears

Marcstalkspot, I'm glad you are back and thanks for those links, I downloaded the you tube video and have watched it, it's great and you have a great sense of humour :thumbsup:

Please forgive me, I suffer from OCD and GAD, and WW thanks for your advice, I will avoid those websites, I do however come across them accidentally

I'm also particularly touched by the believers in ED responding so gently to my post :HeartThrob:, usually non-URers are so judgmental and harsh

I just don't think I could bear it to finally embrace UR , only to find out it isn't true, I do however think there is more evidence for ED than ET though, although this isn't good news either, it's infinitely better than ET

Card, I only wished God would show me things like he does you :HeartThrob:

Shadow...no two Christians in the world fully agree.
We all believe different things.  (Hence the 39 thousand denominations of Christianity) and literally hundreds of faiths and divisions of countless other religions.

So God...Burns them all?

Nah.

The truth is you are FREE to BELIEVE what YOU want.  This isnt about anyone else.  You have to ask yourself what do YOU believe about God?  Who is God to you?  What is LOVE (God is love) to YOU?

THAT is your truth, your faith, your light...YOUR God.

Maybe you will know the real God better than some others and maybe less than some others, but if your loving God will all your heart soul and strength (as much as YOU can) AND loving your neighbour as yourself (just as important), then YOU are on the right track.

SHADOW....you only have to know the ENDING, to know what to believe.


God is savior of ALL men.

God all in all.  (love all in all??)


Then you make things fit into that.  IF they don't 'fit' then reject it.  Because it's a lie.  Love wins, it's that simple.  Love (God) is all powerful and working everything out in accordance with it's plan and purpose which is to save everyone.


You will read arguments against UR which seem really convincing at times.  But two people could debate forever about something, both sides having a case and good points.

But this isnt about people.  Its about God who said He is savior of all.

Our God is all loving but he is also righteous.

Our job is to find that righteous spot--Christ--and cling to it.

That is a lifetime job--and infinitely pleasurable..


Isaiah 60:21
Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

SHADOW.

Listen to me for a minute or two...

Its you CHOICE to believe who God is.
He is love.
Now is your current belief giving you peace, joy, love etc?  (Fruits?) Is your HOPE in the living God savior of all mankind?
The Bible, as hard as it is to understand serves the purpose of....

Hebrews 4:12 >>
....For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

THATS what the bible does.  THAT is why WE have to decide what WE believe about love (God).

Do believers in hell and a failure god have peace, love, joy?  If so...Ive never witnessed it.  The only time ive witnessed any joy in such people is when the 'secretly' have the hope that God will save all.  And so they should for our hope is IN the living God, savior of all.

Shadow, WE judge the world...
"Do ye not know that the saints "shall judge the world"? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" 1 Corinthians 6:2-3

So Shadow...YOU JUDGE what is RIGHT.  YOU JUDGE what LOVE IS.  Do you hear what I'm saying to you??


Noones going to be getting infinitely tortured.


If other people choose not to believe what YOU believe, then so be it.
Some people will say "Jesus draws all mankind to him but that doesnt mean he will save all", or theyll say "God says he will be all in all and every creature will confess", but that doesnt mean all are saved".

What do YOU believe those passages mean?  Does all mean all?  

If you were God.... and you created your own world.... and your "people".... By choice... or process.... Ended up evil....You would have 3choices as to how to deal with it.
1. Annihilation
2. Eternal Damnation
3. Restoration
Which would bring you the most glory?


What belief makes the most sense?

What gives you a sound mind?  What is sound reasoning?

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

Is hell lovely, noble?  Right? Pure?  Lovely? Admirable?  Praiseworthy?
Why then are you wasting your time THINKING about it?

Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and
under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them,
heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him
that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


1 TIM 4:9
Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.
11 These things be charging and teaching.

Has your faith in a failure god 'saved' you?  Given you joy peace, sound mind?  Made you want to love your neighbour and God?

JOB 33 -
God always answers, one way or another, even when people don't recognize his presence. "In a dream, for instance, a vision at night,when men and women are deep in sleep, fast asleep in their beds, God opens their ears and impresses them with warnings. To turn them back from something bad they're planning,from some reckless choice, And ... See morekeep them from an early grave, from the river of no return.
"Or, God might get their attention through pain, by throwing them on a bed of suffering, So they can't stand the sight of food, have no appetite for their favorite treats. They lose weight, wasting away to nothing, reduced to a bag of bones. They hang on the cliff-edge of death, knowing the next breath may be their last.
But even then an angel could come,a champion—there are thousands of them!— to take up your cause, A messenger who would mercifully intervene, canceling the death sentence with the words: 'I've come up with the ransom!' Before you know it, you're healed, the very picture of health! "Or, you may fall on your knees and pray—to God's delight! You'll see God's smile and celebrate, finding yourself set right with God.
You'll sing God's praises to everyone you meet, testifying, 'I messed up my life— and let me tell you, it wasn't worth it. But God stepped in and saved me from certain death. I'm alive again! Once more I see the light!' "This is the way God works. Over and over again He pulls our souls back from certain destruction so we'll see the light—and live in the light!


Come back Shadow.  Put your faith in what is right and come back.
We love you and were all in this together.



By the way if your on facebook let me know, my name there is 'Marc Dash'.

If your NOT on facebook, then i suggest you join!  Because its so much fun you would love it!  There are hundreds of UR believers on there and you only need to add UR believers.
You dont HAVE to get involved in debates here there or anywhere.  Our job is to tell the world the GOOD NEWS, and thats it!  Jesus said if they dont listen shake the dust from your feet and move on!

Tentmaker is a great website, but its not easy being on here and reading everyones doubts and frustrations.  You HAVE to get away from all that sometimes, you have to decide what it is you truly believe about God and what love means to you, and what makes the most sense, otherwise your always going to be running around, getting tossed and blown around by the wind and being unhappy.

You HAVE to take a leap of faith in love (God).

Take a leap of faith in love today.  Put your trust in love.  Dont even think about anything else.  God is love, but dont think about that for now...Think about love, all that is good and kind and pure and just and take that leap of faith, because THAT is how you find God.

I pray before this week is over that you understand what is being said here and that you find peace and see God with new understanding.

....Sorry im still here!


Its the FAITH of Jesus that SAVES us, but it is what YOUR belief is IN that determines what JOY you feel in this life and what peace you have.

If you believe that God frys most of humanity or loses most of them, then your not going to be happy about that, because your not a bad person and you WANT people to be saved and happy and loved etc and for everyone to make it too heaven.  (Sounds pretty Godly to me).

Some people could be happy believing in a ball of string.  People from all over the world and since time began have believed ALL SORTS of things.  We are INDIVIDUALS.  You cannot get down everytime someone else believes something that YOU DONT.  You have to shrug and say "Well...I dont believe that about God".

Its a personal journey.

And personally on the day of judgement when God asks me "Why did you believe i would save all men", ill say "Because thats what you wanted and said you would do".  SIMPLE.

Sorry, still here.

Shadow i know what you do, you see, because ive been there.


.....Your quite happily sitting on the net browsing on tentmaker, chatting to friends, being happy.

Then all of a sudden you see a post...."ETERNAL TORCHER IS REAL", (or some crap like that).

So...You click on it. 
....You see how someone from somewhere has made an argument against God saving everyone that normally goes something like....


"God cant save all, because God said this and God did that and God went there and God told Moses and Bobby dived in the river and Trisha said to Jimmy..."

And you start to feel uneasy and think "OOOOoooo  Maybe God wont save all people, this argument looks pretty solid".

Then you read the responses from tentmaker members but your still not convinced.  "What if were just wishful thinkers", you think to yourself, as negativity and doubt creeps in and you let someone steal your joy because they DONT believe the SAME THING that YOU believe.


You have to stop it!  Seriously stop it now!
You have already stated that UR makes most sense (i think).  So BELIEVE in that.  THAT is what YOU believe.  Nevermind what EVILBOBBY666 or WICKEDGREEDYTVPREACHER thinks....We will all give an account of OURSELVES to God. 

This isnt about anyone else but you and God.

Love casts out fear.  Have the strength to love.  Please Shadow.

wow Marc,

You've been drinking Miracle Grow.
It's amazing how God can take us from a weed in the garden to the Bloom on the Rose.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 17, 2010, 06:13:26 PM
wow Marc,

You've been drinking Miracle Grow.
It's amazing how God can take us from a weed in the garden to the Bloom on the Rose.

That Job part I quoted was exactly what God did to me.

It was only the other day when i reached out in love to touch someone i didnt even know, that God gave that person a miracle and in return restored my faith in God and all things good (love).

Robert Rutherford posted this on his facebook.

I wanted to share it with Shadow..


Today: you can believe the lies of the deceptive snake as you eat at the forbidden tree (religion).....
Hide from God ( guilt & shame )...
Try to cover yourself ( works).....
OR.... You can believe the truth.....(you are His child!)
Run TO God... NOT, FROM Him (nothing can separate you from Him)
...and enjoy your perfection!!!!

Heres another one from Jim Swilleys facebook just now....

....BELIEVE today...believe in a real God who loves you just as you are...believe in yourself, and in your unique gifts...believe in the possiblity of living out your own personal destiny...believe in second chances...believe in redemption...believe that all things are working together for your good...believe in a happy ending to your story...remember, Jesus said, "be not afraid...ONLY believe"...


Sounds to me like God's speaking to you today Shadow...Everywhere I look Im finding thing relevant to how you feel.

Oh and Shadow, if you do nothing else today, watch this guys video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnaXQuAVee4

Hi Marc

Thanks for all the encouraging messages I hadn't logged on for a couple of hours :HeartThrob:, I tried to find you on facebook, but it appears to be the wrong person, as the Marc Dash I'm seeing is from the US, could you PM me the link to your facebook page

Quote from: Shadow on July 17, 2010, 07:15:06 PM
Hi Marc

Thanks for all the encouraging messages I hadn't logged on for a couple of hours :HeartThrob:, I tried to find you on facebook, but it appears to be the wrong person, as the Marc Dash I'm seeing is from the US, could you PM me the link to your facebook page

Im not sure how to send my link...

Is this it?

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/profile.php?id=100001256016394

Hi All,

Well, I must say "if Shadow doesn't benefit from all of the post I sure have".

I have been kind of low lately, asking God if he can hear me and if he is really there. I can't believe this thought has even crossed my mind. You see, my husband is really sick, has been for 7 years now. The vomiting and diarrhea has taken it's toll. It doesn't look good for him. The Dr's have given him 6 months if he doesn't stop vomiting. So far nothing has worked. I know God can do all things and all things work out for the good of us all whether it means life or death. It is really hard to deal with sometimes. Sometimes my faith gets a little thin. If God would just stop the vomiting it would be such a relief. My husband just got out of the hospital about three weeks ago worse than when he went in. Go figure!!

Have you ever wondered if God is listening to you any more? I keep praying but thinking at the same time that God has other plans than answering my prayers. I have started praying for God to just help us to deal with this awful thing but so far I am getting more down and out and my husband is getting weaker.

Thank you all for the words you wrote to Shadow they were a blessing to me, just wanted everyone to know this. I would appreciate everyone's prayers.

Shadow, there are better days ahead I know. Someday we will look back on all of this and think it was nothing. I pray for you and hope you will find peace in what every one has said. Just stick around and prove us all wrong. You all are a great bunch of people.

CHB

Quote from: Shadow on July 17, 2010, 12:19:30 AM
Thanks for the replies people :bgdance: , this seems to be the only board that I can post on without bringing it to silence for 3 or more hours :dontknow:

I'm particularly touched that you would still want me, even although I'm a deconvert, I don't disbelieve in God and Jesus, the love I had has waxed ice cold and I honestly don't know what to do, I don't feel as if prayer will make a difference as everything is set in stone anyway :sigh:

Shadow we absolutely want you here.  There is no condemnation here.  In fact, I think your presence makes this a better site.  I came back on these boards almost every day to see if you would post again.  We come from many different experiences and are in many different places in the journey.  I'm not sure I have ever been right where you are at but some of the thoughts read very similar.  I remember giving up (right in the middle of working for a degree at a Christian college).  I remember losing all faith, questioning God's love even his very existence.  I know depressive and anxious thought.  I know addiction, vice and the prison of being ruled by my own thoughts (verses God ruling my thought life).  I know desperation, despair, abuse, abandonment and emptiness.  My heart really goes out to you and you are in my prayers.

On the opposite side of the coin I had to make a decision.  I had to either live or die.  A great quote from Shawshank Redemption comes to mind, "get busy living or get busy dying".  It's so appropriate here.  You feel it.  You feel your very soul dying and with it all hope, joy, happiness and peace.  I believe you are ruled by depressive thought and it owns you.  I suspect you have endured much trauma in your life and have baggage you can no longer carry.  I can tell you it's not hopeless.  That I can promise you.  I can't really tell you the process of having your soul healed.  I can tell you for me...it started with a crying out to God and then crying out to others.  I asked God for help and I asked those I trusted for help.  I sought professional, group and spiritual help from multiple sources...(God, AA, my family, my friends, pastors and those I trusted "got it").  It wasn't until I had nothing left and only looked towards death that I was able to ask for help.  You are at a crossroads and have some decisions to make.  It is not hopeless.  God is indeed agape love.  He formed you perfectly for a purpose.  You have significant and eternal value.  You are cherished and loved deeply by our Creator.

I will pray for you everytime you come to my mind which is often.  

http://www.facebook.com/marc.dash


GOT IT!

Yes Marc I copied the whole link and sent the friend request as well as a message, my internet connection is sooo ssslllooowww :dontknow:

And CHB I've have benefited from the messages, just the mere fact that people on this board have actually gone out of their way to respond means a lot to me (it's truly something I didn't expect), it shows that there are people on here that truly care, I hope your husband gets well and am sorry you have had to endure this for so long

I'm not a big poster, in fact this is probably the most posts I've made in a single day since I've joined here, so if I don't respond immediately don't think I've forgotten, sometimes I'm worried I'll even get a response or that I may upset someone, that's why I usually think about what I post

On another forum where I'm far more argumentative with ETers, I always have the answer to the anticipated response to my post ready, before I even make the first post, more often than not, I don't get an answer though, they may hate me, but they can't answer me quickly

The strange thing though, is that I now have to log on to read this part of the forum now, whereas yesterday it was still viewable to guests

Thanks for all the prayers and encouragement, have seen you post too, Shawn

Quote from: Shadow on July 17, 2010, 07:59:32 PM
Yes Marc I copied the whole link and sent the friend request as well as a message, my internet connection is sooo ssslllooowww :dontknow:

And CHB I've have benefited from the messages, just the mere fact that people on this board have actually gone out of their way to respond means a lot to me (it's truly something I didn't expect), it shows that there are people on here that truly care, I hope your husband gets well and am sorry you have had to endure this for so long

I'm not a big poster, in fact this is probably the most posts I've made in a single day since I've joined here, so if I don't respond immediately don't think I've forgotten, sometimes I'm worried I'll even get a response or that I may upset someone, that's why I usually think about what I post

On another forum where I'm far more argumentative with ETers, I always have the answer to the anticipated response to my post ready, before I even make the first post, more often than not, I don't get an answer though, they may hate me, but they can't answer me quickly

The strange thing though, is that I now have to log on to read this part of the forum now, whereas yesterday it was still viewable to guests

Thanks for all the prayers and encouragement, have seen you post too, Shawn

Hello glad to see you back and cheered up. I was suprised by the amount of replies here, great work by the people here :thumbsup:

You said your on another forum arguing with ETers. I'm not a doctor but I don't think this helps your condition. You said that your convinced that Ur isnt true, so you have your doubts but yet you argue with ETers. Let go of your pride of whatever the motivation is, to argue with the Eters and instead go to tentmaker site and what the hell is hell site and learn some of the scriptures. Even as an edist I belive that all people will have 100% knowledge of Gods existence

JEREMIAH 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

But forget Edist, you are probably getting the wrong idea of what it means, know that doubters like you will not be cast into the lake of fire, as spoken in the above scripture for if doubters were we'd all be thrown in, for we all have doubts. Just to let you know that God is love and that love that we have shown here is from God, who loves you, so let the doubt be undoubt.

Shadow,

I think you should post at least once a day.
Otherwise you end up on those satanic et sites....

You are right TT, in fact I decided to do just that last night, these sites are not doing my health any good, I only have the link to the main site on my bookmarks for tentmaker now, so I go there first and have to follow a link to get here from there, I will be doing a lot of reading from there :happy3:

And WW, this is the first time I have ever gone past 200 posts on any forum, when I was on the mininova forum usually giving out technical advice, I think I got to 185 posts or so, which was just before this all got started, ATM I not thinking clearly enough to give advice, so I left there, this is definitely the most posts I've made in a single day this year :icon_flower:

Quote from: Shadow on July 17, 2010, 08:57:14 PM
this is definitely the most posts I've made in a single day this year :icon_flower:

Until now!  :bgdance:

Your an established member now shadow you can't leave now :laughing7:

You got to beat whitewings and get gold membership.

 :cloud9: CHB, I'll be praying.....I went through the same thing with my daughter in bouts of vomiting, for almost 3 years. It terrified me, because she was told she was going to die from the stomach tears from vomiting, if it didn't stop. The only time it did is when they had her in the hospital with IV's pumping stomach meds in her to heal it and stop it at the same time. My heart goes out to you.... :girlheart:

The Samson Riddle:

http://blip.tv/file/1463843

willieH: Hi David, Marc, & Shadow... :hithere:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 17, 2010, 06:13:26 PM
wow Marc,

You've been drinking Miracle Grow.
It's amazing how God can take us from a weed in the garden to the Bloom on the Rose.

:thumbsup: :2thumbs: :mthumbsup: :gthumbsup: :rocker

DAVID:

You can say that again bro!  MARC is literally... ON FIRE!  :flamebreath:

MARC:

You have grown in such proportions since you were last here, only one word fits that growth = AMAZING!

SHADOW:

Listen up if you will dear sister... there is a preacher in the camp today... who's inspiration is blessing us all...

 :cloud9: AMEN  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Shadow on July 16, 2010, 10:49:09 PM
This will be my final post on here

I would like to thank the people on the site who have tried to help me and for the gentle responses given to my last post in a different thread, I'd like to believe that UR is true but no matter how hard I try I'm not convinced, as I feel I no longer have a place on this forum, I'd like my account to be deleted, I've requested it to be deleted before via the control panel on numerous accasions, but my requests have been ignored, so I'm making a public appeal, after this post I'm requesting the account to be deleted via the control panel, please honor my request this time

For over 2 years I've tried to hang on to the hope that somehow out there, there is a God that loves us, however the evidence I've seen thus far doesn't support this, it has in fact led to my deconversion, yes I've had to face the painful truth and realize that I'm an apostate and a deconvert, I realized this about a year ago and tried to fight it but I have to concede that I'm defeated, I can no longer honestly call myself a christian, as I could NEVER accept an eternal hell for mankind, people like Bill Weise and Mary Baxter started me towards the slippery slope of deconversion, I have since discovered other things that disprove an all loving, benevolent God

WHAT do I really believe


I believe that there's a God out there who hates most of us. A God who purposely wired us to where we would invoke his wrath. A God who gave us natural desires, yet condemns us for having them. A God who threatens to torch us for just being born. A God who sets us up so we'll fall, just so he can punish us. I believe that life is just a sick joke, where what is good to us is evil to God. I believe in a God who wants to trip us up so he can punish us when we fall. I believe that I'm damned without hope, yet God wants to torture me mentally with obsessive religious thoughts anyway, before he tortures me physically after I die. I don't like what I believe, but I believe it. :dontknow:

Thank goodness I already made the decision to NEVER have kids even as a christian, at least I'm not responsible for dragging another human being into this nightmare, I only wish other people would actually GRASP what their preacher are trying to tell them, like I did :sigh:

Shadow,  don't go,  I for one am glad that you are honest about what you think.   You may not realize this, but you are following one of the ten commandments to the letter.   "Do not bear a false witness"   You are honest about what you think, more people should be that way.   You often remind me to not get "religious" and be real.

Don't think you are alone. 

Quote from: willieH on July 17, 2010, 11:33:48 PM
willieH: Hi David, Marc, & Shadow... :hithere:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 17, 2010, 06:13:26 PM
wow Marc,

You've been drinking Miracle Grow.
It's amazing how God can take us from a weed in the garden to the Bloom on the Rose.

:thumbsup: :2thumbs: :mthumbsup: :gthumbsup: :rocker

DAVID:

You can say that again bro!  MARC is literally... ON FIRE!  :flamebreath:

MARC:

You have grown in such proportions since you were last here, only one word fits that growth = AMAZING!

SHADOW:

Listen up if you will dear sister... there is a preacher in the camp today... who's inspiration is blessing us all...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Well you guys helped to plant and God made it grow as they say!   Thanks a lot, to all of you.

Quote from: CHB on July 17, 2010, 07:36:23 PM
Have you ever wondered if God is listening to you any more? I keep praying but thinking at the same time that God has other plans than answering my prayers. I have started praying for God to just help us to deal with this awful thing but so far I am getting more down and out and my husband is getting weaker.

Thank you all for the words you wrote to Shadow they were a blessing to me, just wanted everyone to know this. I would appreciate everyone's prayers.

CHB, I understand how you are feeling ... I've been through my own dark night. I will surely be praying for you as well   :grouppray:

 (http://dl8.glitter-graphics.net/pub/350/350758hgthp12u5o.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
        Love is patient, love is kind.
               It does not envy,
              it does not boast,
                it is not proud.
   It is not rude, it is not self-seeking.
It is not easily angered, it keeps no record
  of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil,
    but rejoices with the truth. It always
   protects, always trusts, always hopes,
    always perseveres. Love never fails.

          ~I Corinthians 13:4-8~

If the only new thing we have to offer is an improved version of the past,
then today is just a reflection of yesterday with no hope for tomorrow.

peacemaker

CHB and Shadow, this was my reading this morning and I thought of both of you:

"We also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us." (Romans 5:3-5)

Quote from: LS on July 18, 2010, 06:33:15 PM
CHB and Shadow, this was my reading this morning and I thought of both of you:

"We also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us." (Romans 5:3-5)

Thanks LS,

I also try to keep these verses in mind.

(2Tim. 2:12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him.

(Rom. 8:18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

CHB

This one has stuck in my gut since my youth:


PAUL TO THE PHILIPPIANS, Chapter 3 (CLV)

8 But, to be sure, I am also deeming all to be a forfeit because of the superiority of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, because of Whom
I forfeited all, and am deeming it to be refuse, that I should be gaining Christ,

9 and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:

10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,

11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.

 :cloud9: Did you notice there that knowing the power of His resurrection precedes being made comformable to His death?  :winkgrin:

Otherwise you would just remain — dead!

Quote from: Cardinal on July 19, 2010, 04:33:48 AM
:cloud9: Did you notice there that knowing the power of His resurrection precedes being made comformable to His death?  :winkgrin:

The 'knowing' is the quickening?


to know..

"the power"[ of his resurrection]

G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.



There's that 'dynamite' word--dunamis.



1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

That's the hope that draws us up hither.

But — we MUST LOOK FOR IT.

Where do we find our own spoken words?

That's where we will find Him, the Word of the Lord, the Son of God.

Shadow...

I have found that in the most difficult times in life, the Spirit has a gentle way of holding us up
and shining light, love, peace and hope into our minds and hearts. We just need to remember
that this infinite, unconditional love lives within us always.

ALL of us love you.   :boyheart:

peacemaker 

We are to love people, not because of what they are, but because of what we are.  That's being like God.  I see Jesus in people that have so many different and erroneous ideas about God and His Word.  He relates to us through faith that functions by love.  He rejoices over the finished product while we are not yet firmly establish in His path.  Staying in the love of God, relating to one another as persons in His love, this is what is important.  Whether or not one's doctrine about this, that or the other thing is oh-so-perfect should not be allowed to interfere with what is important.  "Love one another."

 :cloud9: Lift up Shadow Father, hide her under Your wings.  :HeartThrob:

Shadow et al,

It seems your original plea and all the loving replies show the true purpose of "the Church" here on earth- which is to be the reflection of the face of Christ, and His hands, feet, Word- all that is Him is actually found in us! It also proves the "Church" is not a building, because it isn't a cold stone building that has written all that is contained here.This is the love of God Himself working through His "living stones".

 :cloud9: Amen  :thumbsup:

hi Shadow...glad your still here.I missed your posts ,I always found them so honest
blessings :icon_king:

Quote from: Shadow on July 16, 2010, 10:49:09 PM
people like Bill Weise and Mary Baxter started me towards the slippery slope of deconversion, I have since discovered other things that disprove an all loving, benevolent God

I know of one Christian who was about to start reading Baxter but had the Holy Spirit speak him the words "this is not my book".

As for Wiese, even Endless Hell believers don't seem to take him that seriously...

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/bill_wiese.htm

Blessings.

Thanks again for the replies, all  :HeartThrob:

onlytruth about my honesty, I've become so honest in my postings that I joined forums under my real name (when discussing christianity) and I call a spade a spade

I'm glad that you all love me, and I know that you are genuine :HeartThrob: , I love and appreciate you all too, although I no longer consider myself a christian, I guess that I still have a glimmer of hope that you are right, the problem is I truly don't know if UR is true, but I do know this much, URers and ETers do NOT worship the same God

Unfortunately, I'm unable to discern which one is correct, I feel as if I have to prepare myself for the worst, if ET is the truth I could NEVER worship it's God, most christians say that we just have to accept ET and if we don't we are not true christians, once you realize this fact, and the ET doctrine is the truth, then it's over

I thought I was making progress until I read and reviewed this book HERE (http://www.amazon.com/review/R14V1JCOQ6R5GS/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1434378888&nodeID=283155#wasThisHelpful), after an ETer argued with my review, I just went ice cold, it was then that I realized just how dear and cherished the ET doctrine is to ETers (I've changed my status back to theistic agnostic)

Card, I appreciate your prayers, but I don't think it's working (yet), the last 2.5 years have left a bitter taste in my mouth, and I just don't know what to do, ETers imply that we are scum worthy of damnation just for being born, God is supposed to be portrayed as a loving Father, even my earthly father doesn't think so little of me

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I don't see God as a loving father (at least not yet) :dontknow:

All Christians worship the same God that is Jesus Christ. The difference is that we have different interpretations of what the scriptures mean. Most Christians belive in ET (I think) I don't belive that means they are not christian, just they have not had a revelation yet, the topic of hell is rarely discussed, so how can one have a revelation on something they never think about. Also most people have a herd mentality, that's how humanity is, it takes pioneers with great guts to rebel and go against the system and such pioneers are not regarded with respect until many years after. Christopher columbus is a good example.
So eternal hell will continue to be belived by the masses until they gradually embrace the new change of no etrnal hell.

I see your still arguing with Eter's Shadow, I'm not suprised, habits are hard to break, I hope though you receive a revelation of the loving father in heaven.

Quote from: thinktank on July 22, 2010, 07:08:59 PMThe difference is that we have different interpretations of what the scriptures mean.

See Christianity as an exam of 10 questions.
Are you a Christian if you have all questions wrong? 7 wrong?
What if your answers aren't just wrong but the opposite of the correct answers?
Isn't there a point that you have to say s/he is not a Christian?

Quote from: Aleax on July 22, 2010, 05:46:52 PM

Quote from: Shadow on July 16, 2010, 10:49:09 PM
people like Bill Weise and Mary Baxter started me towards the slippery slope of deconversion, I have since discovered other things that disprove an all loving, benevolent God

I know of one Christian who was about to start reading Baxter but had the Holy Spirit speak him the words "this is not my book".

As for Wiese, even Endless Hell believers don't seem to take him that seriously...

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/bill_wiese.htm

Blessings.

Really good post.  Interesting that the link is to a fellow that believes in ET, but still debunks Bill Weise and has some good things to say about salvation.   :thumbsup:

Quote from: thinktank on July 22, 2010, 07:08:59 PM
All Christians worship the same God that is Jesus Christ. The difference is that we have different interpretations of what the scriptures mean. Most Christians believe in ET (I think) I don't believe that means they are not christian, just they have not had a revelation yet, the topic of hell is rarely discussed, so how can one have a revelation on something they never think about. Also most people have a herd mentality, that's how humanity is, it takes pioneers with great guts to rebel and go against the system and such pioneers are not regarded with respect until many years after. Christopher columbus is a good example.
So eternal hell will continue to be believed by the masses until they gradually embrace the new change of no eternal hell.

What I meant was that ETers refer to themselves as born again christians and annihilationists as annihilationists and Urers as Urers, they refuse to acknowledge them as christians, some ETers even view URers as being worse than atheists, URers do accept ETers as christians though, as I cannot accept the ET POV, I accept the non-christian label given by ETers

About the topic of hell not being discussed by ETers, this is the epitome of dishonesty, especially when trying to portray such a God as all loving :thumbdown:

QuoteI see your still arguing with Eter's Shadow, I'm not suprised, habits are hard to break, I hope though you receive a revelation of the loving father in heaven.

I'm not arguing with ETers anymore, I did till recently, but not anymore as it's an exercise in futility, they are hard to avoid though, they always turn up like a bad penny unexpectedly

Quote from: jabcat on July 22, 2010, 07:23:17 PMInteresting that the link is to a fellow that believes in ET, but still debunks Bill Weise and has some good things to say about salvation.

James I think you should read the rest of the site. :winkgrin: He's a very hardcore ET

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 22, 2010, 07:20:56 PM

Quote from: thinktank on July 22, 2010, 07:08:59 PMThe difference is that we have different interpretations of what the scriptures mean.

See Christianity as an exam of 10 questions.
Are you a Christian if you have all questions wrong? 7 wrong?
What if your answers aren't just wrong but the opposite of the correct answers?
Isn't there a point that you have to say s/he is not a Christian?

I'm not sure if questions are the best way, maybe we are tempted to do that and seems easier, but Christ says

By their fruits you shall know them

It's that idea of show me your faith and I'll show you my works, for faith without works is dead.

I guess the only people qualified to judge a person whether they be a christian are the people that spend time with that Christian, e.g. Church members, familly, they are the only ones who know whether the person has grown or not and even then, sometimes they do not know, only God knows, for sometimes seeds, take a long time to mature and produce manifested fruit for people to see.

Quote from: Shadow on July 22, 2010, 07:31:42 PMAbout the topic of hell not being discussed by ETers, this is the epitome of dishonesty, especially when trying to portray such a God as all loving :thumbdown:

I noticed the same thing on other forums. For a while I followed TM people posting on City-Data. Whoever replies with torturous comment got high praise. The content of the post was not that important.

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 22, 2010, 07:46:13 PM

Quote from: Shadow on July 22, 2010, 07:31:42 PMAbout the topic of hell not being discussed by ETers, this is the epitome of dishonesty, especially when trying to portray such a God as all loving :thumbdown:

I noticed the same thing on other forums. For a while I followed TM people posting on City-Data. Whoever replies with torturous comment got high praise. The content of the post was not that important.

Yeah there are, Eters out there who make hell their core message, but if you take a look at the audio called stretson vs strange on tentmaker, the Et pastor on there, makes it clear that he tries not to focus on hell but rather on the love of God and the cross. I think this is what the majority of todays ET, churches are like and are not comfortable discussing ET. :2c:

Quote from: thinktank on July 22, 2010, 07:52:47 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 22, 2010, 07:46:13 PM

Quote from: Shadow on July 22, 2010, 07:31:42 PMAbout the topic of hell not being discussed by ETers, this is the epitome of dishonesty, especially when trying to portray such a God as all loving :thumbdown:

I noticed the same thing on other forums. For a while I followed TM people posting on City-Data. Whoever replies with torturous comment got high praise. The content of the post was not that important.

Yeah there are, Eters out there who make hell their core message, but if you take a look at the audio called stretson vs strange on tentmaker, the Et pastor on there, makes it clear that he tries not to focus on hell but rather on the love of God and the cross. I think this is what the majority of todays ET, churches are like and are not comfortable discussing ET. :2c:

I agree.  There are some hardcore folks around who focus on it, but I believe the majority generally avoid mentioning it - unless they feel compelled to "make a point" for effect, then they'll say something like "we don't talk about it much anymore, but hell is real".

I do agree there certainly can be an intensity on discussion forums...

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 22, 2010, 07:31:50 PM

Quote from: jabcat on July 22, 2010, 07:23:17 PMInteresting that the link is to a fellow that believes in ET, but still debunks Bill Weise and has some good things to say about salvation.

James I think you should read the read of the site. :winkgrin: He's a very hardcore ET

Yes, that's why I say "interesting".  Although an ET'er, I believe he still has some good, helpful things to say, even debunking another ET'er...hmmm.  I just think most ET'ers would eat that up rather than debunk it.  I don't know, I'm generalizing and could be wrong.

Christianity is a term describing an institution or organization that promotes charity/love through donations.  An organ donor must be kept alive until the harvesting is completed, which is accomplished by informing the patron, especially, a regular customer that they are dead (keep in mind that this isn't about one who lays down his life for that of another).  It's about favor and protection (fire/life insurance) in exchange for certain services; freeing the slaves without relinquishing all legal claims, lording over their subordinates.

Two friends of ours who played on the worship team at a local church recently decided to leave. They were faced with ridicule from the pastor, "You're turning your back on me and God."  Claiming that their skin will burn-off, like that of a snake shedding its skin, over and over again for eternity, "You need to believe in the Hell that Jesus spoke of." Or else? I've heard this line of reasoning before. Let's see, if you don't believe you're going to this HELL FULL OF SNAKE SKINS, then you are going there FOR NOT BELIEVING IT!

"Common sense died, and this pastor failed to attend his own funeral."

Some people have thick membranes covering their organs, mostly between the hemispheres of the brain.
Shadow, you are not the only one who professes not in the name of Christianity which is derived from the souls of men, not the SPIRIT.

peacemaker

I didn't read all of the responses to Shadow's post but I have to say that the responses I did read were very moving and filled with love.  This board is a good place and reflects the love of God, many of you are truly ministers of the good news.

Isn't it nice to rest in the fact that despite any of our pain, doubts, failures, etc. that God is relentless in his love and will pursue each of us, including Shadow, until we find our place with him?  It makes it so much easier to feel and express empathy instead of judgment.

Quote from: Shadow on July 22, 2010, 06:24:52 PM
Thanks again for the replies, all  :HeartThrob:

onlytruth about my honesty, I've become so honest in my postings that I joined forums under my real name (when discussing christianity) and I call a spade a spade

I'm glad that you all love me, and I know that you are genuine :HeartThrob: , I love and appreciate you all too, although I no longer consider myself a christian, I guess that I still have a glimmer of hope that you are right, the problem is I truly don't know if UR is true, but I do know this much, URers and ETers do NOT worship the same God

Unfortunately, I'm unable to discern which one is correct, I feel as if I have to prepare myself for the worst, if ET is the truth I could NEVER worship it's God, most christians say that we just have to accept ET and if we don't we are not true christians, once you realize this fact, and the ET doctrine is the truth, then it's over

I thought I was making progress until I read and reviewed this book HERE (http://www.amazon.com/review/R14V1JCOQ6R5GS/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1434378888&nodeID=283155#wasThisHelpful), after an ETer argued with my review, I just went ice cold, it was then that I realized just how dear and cherished the ET doctrine is to ETers (I've changed my status back to theistic agnostic)

Card, I appreciate your prayers, but I don't think it's working (yet), the last 2.5 years have left a bitter taste in my mouth, and I just don't know what to do, ETers imply that we are scum worthy of damnation just for being born, God is supposed to be portrayed as a loving Father, even my earthly father doesn't think so little of me

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I don't see God as a loving father (at least not yet) :dontknow:

I think you debated your opinion quite well in that link.  I have been right where you are.  Shoot, I'm not that far removed from the frustration.  I guess how I came to peace with it is the fact that I have experienced the love of God in my own life.  The God I serve is a forgiving, long suffering and gracious God.  I believe he will work this all out for the good of mankind.  I don't know how it all works.  Today, I am ok with that.  I don't have to have it figured out to serve him.  I won't put God on trial.  With that realization came freedom to love God.  I don't believe God eternally tortures any man.  While I can't rule that out I don't see it lining up with a God who loves agape.

Sometimes I think studying this is an exercise in futility sent to me in order to teach me childlike faith.  I just trust my Daddy...Abba...Father and know I am in his hands.  Thinking about some of this stuff too much can make one crazy.  I believe that.

Quote from: shawn on July 24, 2010, 10:28:18 AM
Today, I am ok with that.  I don't have to have it figured out to serve him.  I won't put God on trial.  With that realization came freedom to love God.  ...Sometimes I think studying this is an exercise in futility sent to me in order to teach me childlike faith.  I just trust my Daddy...Abba...Father and know I am in his hands.  Thinking about some of this stuff too much can make one crazy.  I believe that.

amen ...

:grouppray:

Quote from: Shadow on July 22, 2010, 07:31:42 PM
So eternal hell will continue to be believed by the masses until they gradually embrace the new change of no eternal hell.

What I meant was that ETers refer to themselves as born again christians and annihilationists as annihilationists and Urers as Urers, they refuse to acknowledge them as christians, some ETers even view URers as being worse than atheists, URers do accept ETers as christians though, as I cannot accept the ET POV, I accept the non-christian label given by ETers

About the topic of hell not being discussed by ETers, this is the epitome of dishonesty, especially when trying to portray such a God as all loving :thumbdown:

QuoteI see your still arguing with Eter's Shadow, I'm not suprised, habits are hard to break, I hope though you receive a revelation of the loving father in heaven.

I'm not arguing with ETers anymore, I did till recently, but not anymore as it's an exercise in futility, they are hard to avoid though, they always turn up like a bad penny unexpectedly
[/quote]

I sometimes wonder how many people honestly believe in Eternal Torment.  IF people did, than we would have a lot more evil people.  You become the god you worship.  Yet few carry those traits.

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 22, 2010, 07:31:50 PM

Quote from: jabcat on July 22, 2010, 07:23:17 PMInteresting that the link is to a fellow that believes in ET, but still debunks Bill Weise and has some good things to say about salvation.

James I think you should read the read of the site. :winkgrin: He's a very hardcore ET

Never was a fan of that Website.  It seems to represent a gospel of Hate and Judgment over mercy. 

All these boxes! :sigh:

By the way, dont worry about what "Mack" says against the doctrine of Universal Salvation.  It has nothing to do with picking and choosing how to interpret the bible.  In fact, there are more "Proof texts" supporting Universal Salvation than Eternal Damnation.  Some people bark "Your taking those verses out of Context".  Really, I dont know how you can get any clearer than "All families on earth shall be blessed", "Every Knee shall bow", "Good news and great joy for all people", "In Adam all have died, in Christ all be made alive".  There are other ones.  But its pretty clear cut what they mean.  The verses they use as proof of Eternal Damnation such as "Eternal Fire", "Eternal Punishment", "Unquenchable Fire", "Worm that dieth not", "Wailing and Ghnashing of teeth", those are taken out of context.  First off, few are willing to study the ancient Hebrew and Greek to understand the true meaning.  They just trust the Church censored translations.  Why do you think that Fundamentalists only use the KJV? Cause they think its the absolute infallible word of God and not willing to research other bibles.  But it isnt rare for a hardcore traditionalist to believe this way.  They assume that Universalist believe in automatic Salvation without any price to pay.  Shows how much they know.  But I dont understand why they think the price needs to be Eternal.  If someone was under threat of temporary punishment, they arent going to commit the crime.  In retrospect, it does not have to be eternal to keep people from sinning.  Its best tp avoid close minded traditionalists.  They dont want to see anything but their way. 

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on August 11, 2010, 05:13:33 PM
By the way, dont worry about what "Mack" says against the doctrine of Universal Salvation.  It has nothing to do with picking and choosing how to interpret the bible.  In fact, there are more "Proof texts" supporting Universal Salvation than Eternal Damnation.  Some people bark "Your taking those verses out of Context".  Really, I dont know how you can get any clearer than "All families on earth shall be blessed", "Every Knee shall bow", "Good news and great joy for all people", "In Adam all have died, in Christ all be made alive".  There are other ones.  But its pretty clear cut what they mean.  The verses they use as proof of Eternal Damnation such as "Eternal Fire", "Eternal Punishment", "Unquenchable Fire", "Worm that dieth not", "Wailing and Ghnashing of teeth", those are taken out of context.  First off, few are willing to study the ancient Hebrew and Greek to understand the true meaning.  They just trust the Church censored translations.  Why do you think that Fundamentalists only use the KJV? Cause they think its the absolute infallible word of God and not willing to research other bibles.  But it isnt rare for a hardcore traditionalist to believe this way.  They assume that Universalist believe in automatic Salvation without any price to pay.  Shows how much they know.  But I dont understand why they think the price needs to be Eternal.  If someone was under threat of temporary punishment, they arent going to commit the crime.  In retrospect, it does not have to be eternal to keep people from sinning.  Its best tp avoid close minded traditionalists.  They dont want to see anything but their way. 

Good post.

Sadly, I came to the same conclusion yesterday as the original poster. ET sounds unjust but I believe it unfortunately is true.

I've been drifting in and out of Christianity time after time over the past 18 years. I've seriously lost the count on how many times I've tried to "repent". However, I have never been able to truly become Born Again. Yeah yeah, in the end of it I'm a depraved person who just wants to sin but in all honesty, there have always been 2 great stumbling blocks. The doctrine of ET has been preventing me from truly loving God and Armageddon being possibly always around the corner I haven't been able to ever make long term plans in life. I don't know how anyone is supposed to retain his sanity with beliefs like this. I'm under an impression most people don't. I definitely didn't. On coffee breaks at an ex-work place people would ask me "what you're gonna do when your contract with us ends? what you're gonna study?" and the first thing to come to mind was always something like "well, there's a good chance the world will end before my contract does"... 

Anyway I lost my final seed of hope yesterday. At some point I just started asking myself the question "who am I trying to fool?" Looking at the big picture I somehow fully realized UR is only faulty copy-paste theology and nothing more. All the UR passages are lifted out of context and made to say something they never said in the first place. God is Love, Love Never Fails. Sorry but I am not convinced. You could construct just about any kind of theology by cherry picking.

1) No murderer has eternal life.
2) God has murdered people.

So...

3) God has no eternal life.

Sorry to say but my belief is UR requires "tweaking". First we have to "explain away" A LOT OF STUFF. You could argue JW Hanson for example does a quite convincing job with that. Okay, even if I fully agreed with him I would still be only half way there. I'd still have to accept theological ideas that aren't found in the Bible. The scriptures speak of a Book of Life. There are many verses about removing names from there. Yet there is not a single verse about getting names written back in the Book. Likewise, there are many verses about the necessity of repentance in THIS LIFE but I haven't seen any verses about afterlife repentance.

However there is something I find, if possible, to be even more repulsive than the doctrine of ET itself. I happen to know A LOT OF people came to UR in their darkest hour. They were depressed, angsty, suicidal, totally desperate. Then they saw UR. Read the visitor's comments and the testimonies on this site. Read Gary Amirault's testimony.

Read "Heavenly Dog" by Charles Slagle and CONSIDER THIS

If ET is true then mr. Slagle wasn't visited by Heavenly Father but by the Dark One. And apparently God totally approved of that. This, to me, is just as egregious as it gets. It's like adding insult to injury. What kind of a crappy father this God is? His children are in great agony, asking for bread and not only he has Satan give them a stone but also he tricks people in believing the stone is actually bread given by God. I just cannot for the life of me muster out of myself love towards this kind of God. "You dislike rejoicing in my righteous judgments, huh? Okay, I let Satan have you then!" Is He really THAT indifferent?!?!?

The final nail in my coffin was driven yesterday. I was reading through a UR rebuttal and there author himself (who seems to be an advanced Christian who says he hears God's voice audibly) stated he once said to God "Everything about your plan is perfect but eternal torment is totally wrong." Then God gave him a vision of good and rotten apples and asked him "Would you really think it would be just to put all these apples into the same basket?" It was after this vision the author gained peace with the ET doctrine.

However, it was after reading this account I lost whatever hope I might've had in ET possibly not being true. I know it's just one account but there's a limit to how much you are able to take that kind of stuff. I went to town and drank myself silly. I just didn't care anymore. I probably couldn't have been more drunk if I had tried. I lost my memory partially but the worst thing is when I came home I spent several hours cursing God, Jesus and Holy Spirit in every conceivable and inconceivable way. I had never felt such hate toward anyone before. I went on until I passed out.

In the morning I felt 100% spiritually dead. It was truly an indescricable feeling. The whole day at work I just tried to hold back the tears, not succeeding. I had to go to the restroom to cry several times. I've never in my life felt so utterly miserable and horrible. I knew I had passed the point of no return. I had committed the unpardonable sin.

No use praying for me. The Spirit has left me and my name is forever blotted out from the Book of Life. I'm definitely a lost case. I believe God gave me a thousand chances over the last 18 years, all of which I blew. I was just being an "overly sentimental fool" who couldn't accept ET and that God's thoughts aren't my thoughts. I guess at the Judgment we all will made understand why ET is Perfectly Just and that every ungodly person truly deserves it. But then it will be too late.

I see myself committing suicide one day when I'm ready for it. I'm utterly sick and tired of everything. I tried, I struggled and I failed. Then again maybe I never really tried. Maybe I loved the short-lived pleasures of sin so much I was willing to wager my eternal destiny. I can only blame myself. Eternal Torchery, here I come.

Father, help this brother know that God is Love.  We don't understand all Your ways, but You've told us You are only good.  Help us to simply trust;  with the trust of a little child.  In Jesus' name.

Oh God show your unfailling love to this child of yours, fill him with mercy and peace in Jesus' name!
Aleax, I pray that the only thing that's dead inside of you is that religious et desperate flesh, be reborn by the Spirit of life and discover the abundant life that Jesus gave us by His death on the cross!

Aleax,
I am saying "amen" to the two prayers above, but I'm not going to pray. Instead, I want to say to you to take your time, lots of time if you need it, and just keep some things you already know close to your heart:

1) God said - "God will not always chide with man, nor keep His anger forever" (Psalm 103:9). This means two things- God was, or even still is angry with mankind- all of us, and there will come a point when His anger will cease- with all of us. In fact that might have already happened, as Jesus said "now is the judgment of this world"- speaking of the death he knew he would die.

2) If He is not willing that anyone should perish, then He is not willing that you will perish. You are engaged in the middle of a fight to the death for your soul, but you know deep down the One who is fighting on your side- that is the God who will ultimately win- the Jesus who has already won! Just because you "feel" like satan has ultimately won your soul forever does not mean he has done.

3) You say you got drunk and cursed God every which way but loose, and have committed the unpardonable sin. Not so. Jesus was very clear what the unpardonable sin was- to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan, and that isn't what you did.

4) None of us here want you to take your own life, but if you do, that isn't the unpardonable sin either- see point 3 above! But- please don't do it! God's not finished with you here yet! (My wife suffers terribly from manic-depression, and hardly a day goes by that I don't have to remind her of this very same thing). I've heard of people who "get drunk and curse God" but it seems like these turn out to be the ones that God loves most and ultimately become His mightiest over-comers. Remember- He'd rather have cold or hot, but doesn't care much for the lukewarm Laodicean church-goers. 

5) Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord. This victorious time will include you too!

I don't want to say anything else right now- you may be seething with rage against me, or maybe not... but from reading your post of despair, two things are apparent- you're very intelligent, and you know your Bible well. Eventually God will knit these together into a totally renewed spirit- you'll see it happen, and we will be rejoicing with you!

Aleax,

I consider myself a recovering everything...alcoholic, drug addict, eternal torment believer, liar, etc and the list goes on and on and on.  I know what it's like to live under the law and the weight of ET belief.  I know depression, despair and suicidal ideation.  I never measured up.  I loathed myself and I just knew God had given up on me.  I have been right where you are standing.  Your pain is very tangable to me and I hurt for you tonight.

I truly believe ET is a lie.  Ask yourself does it make sense?  The answer is no...it makes zero sense.  The Bible makes zero sense with ET belief as it's backbone.  I would be very concerned about you if it did make sense to you.  Then ask yourself why do you hang onto it.  Has it brought you peace?  Has it brought you joy?  Do you believe you are in danger of hellfire for believing something other than ET?  Does it bring you anxiety to buck tradition and scholarly theologians?  Join the crowd.  It was hard for me to release it.  But, remember that's exactly what Jesus did.  He bucked traditional theological thinking...scolded the learned and called them a den of vipers.

I believe today is your day to finally free yourself of ET and finally love God and accept his unconditional love for you.  When you begin to see yourself how God sees you...well the drink, depression, anxiety will leave you.

...Even rotten apples contain good seed if God is the one planting them.

Who am I to be better than the rotten apple?  I too am rotten, I was rotten, my body is rotten, and rot it shall.  Only the seed of Christ within my worm infested walking corpse, is what makes me worthy to be in his harvest.  If God can pull me off the ground, a foul, rotten, hideous, worm riddled fruit!  And make me half decent, and better; Glorify me from the inside out...Then by God (literally) he can do it for every apple on that tree!

If ET is real, and this thing of "free will choice to choose God = salvation" thing is real by that mark...Then in Heaven I hope by my free-will to refuse all fellowship with such gloating, fat, dirty saints who revel in the Hell of their fellow man...who are only in Heaven by the literal skin of their confessing teeth.  I want no part of a glorified congregation made into coliseum spectators.

If ET is real, I will merely have to bow, and reverence the High Tyrant, who by some Olympian whim decided to pluck me out of my doom, to set me on a high mountain and watch as he casts down a vast score of humanity's tree into a form of barbarity unspeakable.  Whilst my deathless brothers surround, and laugh upon them through their glearing grins; these bastard-white saints, who deserve that same Hell just as much as I.  For it has been said: "Hell is there, so the saints will enjoy Heaven more".

If ET is real, then I beg the King who damned his creation...Do not let my tears be wiped away!  Let me cry forever, so that eventually the drops from my face will fill all of Hell and quench that fire at last...At least some one will care enough about them to show the unfailing love that you insisted we have.  I wouldn't want to enjoy Heaven anyway, how could I enjoy play in pearled glory while the multitudes below me scream so cruelly?

If ET is real, then my given glory is a joke, and cruel one at that.  Because if God can't do, or won't do what he says he will for All, then I cannot trust him to do what he said he will do for me.  Trust is the foundation of Love, and if I cannot trust God, how can I love him?  If I cannot love God...There is no love in me, for God is Love, and God would not be in me, and I would then be damned in turn to that very Eternal Torment, being a rotten apple, and not having the seed of Christ in me.

If ET is real, then I can only hope that Heaven has a long tab of drink, by which I can drown forever my sorrow, and forget it all.

If ET is real, how can the loving touch of Christ's hand on my shoulder be received as anything but the touch of a cruel father, who with the same hand that flung the blood of billions into never-ending hideousy, would try and tell me that he loves me?  That I can trust him, that he'll take care of me?

What wife would trust their husband to love them, after seeing him commit genocide?  Even of the wicked?  Death without end, without purpose, without remedial gain...simple vindictive torture forever...?

What daughter, after seeing the hands of her father strangle a man who rejected him, and strangle him again, and again, and again, torturing him with burning hands...Would that daughter not scream and flee when those same hands try to reach down to pick her up?

...Such hypocrisy...

God is no hypocrite, God is Infinite Love.

What Christ has done for me, He has done for all- I am saved by grace through faith, and that not of myself, it is the gift of God- lest anyman should boast.

For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He might have mercy on ALL.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1Jn 2:1-2)

If ET is true, then I am indeed accursed and mad, but joyfully so, for in my vision I see the whole creation rejoicing in harmony and love, God being all in all- by that self same grace, a gift from the one who is making all things new.

Quote from: Shadow on July 17, 2010, 12:19:30 AM
Thanks for the replies people :bgdance: , this seems to be the only board that I can post on without bringing it to silence for 3 or more hours :dontknow:

I'm particularly touched that you would still want me, even although I'm a deconvert, I don't disbelieve in God and Jesus, the love I had has waxed ice cold and I honestly don't know what to do, I don't feel as if prayer will make a difference as everything is set in stone anyway :sigh:

everyone here i think has sruggeled with quiting churchanity and not quiting with God.

have you read martin zenders book, quiting church without quiting God?

well, i struggled in the wilderness for 14 yrs and thought i quit God, but he didnt quit me, so HANG IN THERE.....

peace
chuckt

Quote from: Lefein on September 01, 2010, 07:32:22 AM
...Even rotten apples contain good seed if God is the one planting them.

Who am I to be better than the rotten apple?  I too am rotten, I was rotten, my body is rotten, and rot it shall.  Only the seed of Christ within my worm infested walking corpse, is what makes me worthy to be in his harvest.  If God can pull me off the ground, a foul, rotten, hideous, worm riddled fruit!  And make me half decent, and better; Glorify me from the inside out...Then by God (literally) he can do it for every apple on that tree!

If ET is real, and this thing of "free will choice to choose God = salvation" thing is real by that mark...Then in Heaven I hope by my free-will to refuse all fellowship with such gloating, fat, dirty saints who revel in the Hell of their fellow man...who are only in Heaven by the literal skin of their confessing teeth.  I want no part of a glorified congregation made into coliseum spectators.

If ET is real, I will merely have to bow, and reverence the High Tyrant, who by some Olympian whim decided to pluck me out of my doom, to set me on a high mountain and watch as he casts down a vast score of humanity's tree into a form of barbarity unspeakable.  Whilst my deathless brothers surround, and laugh upon them through their glearing grins; these bastard-white saints, who deserve that same Hell just as much as I.  For it has been said: "Hell is there, so the saints will enjoy Heaven more".

If ET is real, then I beg the King who damned his creation...Do not let my tears be wiped away!  Let me cry forever, so that eventually the drops from my face will fill all of Hell and quench that fire at last...At least some one will care enough about them to show the unfailing love that you insisted we have.  I wouldn't want to enjoy Heaven anyway, how could I enjoy play in pearled glory while the multitudes below me scream so cruelly?

If ET is real, then my given glory is a joke, and cruel one at that.  Because if God can't do, or won't do what he says he will for All, then I cannot trust him to do what he said he will do for me.  Trust is the foundation of Love, and if I cannot trust God, how can I love him?  If I cannot love God...There is no love in me, for God is Love, and God would not be in me, and I would then be damned in turn to that very Eternal Torment, being a rotten apple, and not having the seed of Christ in me.

If ET is real, then I can only hope that Heaven has a long tab of drink, by which I can drown forever my sorrow, and forget it all.

If ET is real, how can the loving touch of Christ's hand on my shoulder be received as anything but the touch of a cruel father, who with the same hand that flung the blood of billions into never-ending hideousy, would try and tell me that he loves me?  That I can trust him, that he'll take care of me?

What wife would trust their husband to love them, after seeing him commit genocide?  Even of the wicked?  Death without end, without purpose, without remedial gain...simple vindictive torture forever...?

What daughter, after seeing the hands of her father strangle a man who rejected him, and strangle him again, and again, and again, torturing him with burning hands...Would that daughter not scream and flee when those same hands try to reach down to pick her up?

...Such hypocrisy...

God is no hypocrite, God is Infinite Love.

Wow.

:thumbsup:

Thanks for the replies all.

And sorry about the outburst but seriously never in my life had I felt so utterly hopeless as on 29th and 30th. I'm a bit better now.

No, I'm not going to give up. At least not yet. I'll try to find out God's will for my life and act accordingly.

They say faith starts where the knowledge ends. So... I admit I can't KNOW the eternal destiny of mankind so all I can have is faith. I choose to have faith in God one day being All in All. I'm not sure whether I should take that as "All in everyone who ever existed" (UR) or "All in everyone who still remain" (ED) but for the sake of whatever is left of my sanity I really must abandon the doctrine of ET.

If I'm wrong, then well... I'm going to counter that "Depart from me for I never knew you!" with "Sir, all I can say is I wish I never knew you either".  :dontknow:

Quote from: Aleax on September 01, 2010, 05:20:04 PM
Thanks for the replies all.

And sorry about the outburst but seriously never in my life had I felt so utterly hopeless as on 29th and 30th. I'm a bit better now.

No, I'm not going to give up. At least not yet. I'll try to find out God's will for my life and act accordingly.

They say faith starts where the knowledge ends. So... I admit I can't KNOW the eternal destiny of mankind so all I can have is faith. I choose to have faith in God one day being All in All. I'm not sure whether I should take that as "All in everyone who ever existed" (UR) or "All in everyone who still remain" (ED) but for the sake of whatever is left of my sanity I really must abandon the doctrine of ET.

If I'm wrong, then well... I'm going to counter that "Depart from me for I never knew you!" with "Sir, all I can say is I wish I never knew you either".  :dontknow:

I think you are under the misperception that belief in UR would condemn you to eternal damnation (if ET was actually supported Biblically).  Even with traditional hellfire brimestone teaching your salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.  No where in the Bible have I read anything about us having to have it all figured out to make it into heaven.  Why would you believe otherwise?  I suspect you still believe this is about you.  Brother, this has nothing to do with you.  This is about the work of the Cross. 

Second, knowing God's will for your life?  What are you specifically looking for?  Your life's work?  Why you were born?  God's will for your life is to love him with all your heart, mind and soul.  God's will for your life is to love your neighbor as yourself.  That ALL starts with realizing who we are in Christ.  It ALL starts with knowing God really does love all of us!  God loves us just as we are.  He isn't a big meanie in the sky with a fly swatter waiting to squash ya.  He is our loving Father who gave his only begotten Son as payment for our sins.  The work is finished.  You have nothing more to do to earn your salvation.  It was completed on the Cross.  You can not earn your salvation.

With that in mind, from a grateful heart we serve, we bear fruit and die daily to the flesh.  Brother, that is a process and for me it started when I was broken.  It started for me "when I hit my bottom".  Don't become discouraged with the process.  Accept God's love for you and bask in it.  From that seed, your growth will produce fruit.

Believing in UR will no more send you to Hell than you, or your child believing that your beloved pets will be in Heaven will send you to Hell.  :thumbsup:

(I believe in pet heaven too by the way :p, but I really do think the idea is applicable anyway)

I ask that God would bless you Aleax, and walk with you through this, as he has walked with me and so many others.  Everything God does is exceedingly, abundantly, and beyond our imagination.  And everything God does is good. *hugs*

So you said that sinners will not enter the kingdom.  Thats true.  But nowhere does it say that one remains a sinner forever.  In fact, we are given clear evidence that we are being made righteous through Christ.

Finding the will of God can seem so daunting. I believe experiencing the will of God begins as we see how much He loves us, "For God so loved the world".

Anything else must come after receiving love and forgiveness. "Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing." You don't know what you are doing? Join the club. Whether we understand UR or hate ET or whatever else we know or are confused about- God loves us.

Outside of the warm embrace of love all truth becomes cold and burdensome. We can never do enough. We can never know enough. We ALL stumble in many ways.

"Blessed is the man whose sin is forgiven and unto whom the Lord does not impute iniquity".

Our God is a god of forgiveness and redemption. Who is the god of bitterness, unforgiveness and unremitting anger?

The adversary is the taskmaster, laying heavy burdens on mens backs....threatening them when they fail.

Our Father anxiously awaits our return when we wander.

"Behold, my son who was lost, is found. REJOICE! Slay the fatted calf....LET'S PARTY".

Life is a privilege. Some have so violated that privilege that the Lord has sent them on to the next round of correction. We call that "judgment", but it is not endless or pointless or purely for revenge. It is for correction, ending in the reconciliation of all things- that God may be ALL IN ALL....as the scriptures teach.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:22-28)

THank goodness this is a forum where people genuinely care and are there to support one another, I've been touched by some of the responses to Aleax as I was down myself, I see just how much fundamentalist ET christianity has affected people and the monstrous nightmare it has wrought on society

Aleax, for what it's worth

If the doctrine of ET is true, then it was preplanned in advance (Rev 13v8) , there is NO way of getting around it and nothing we can do about it anyway, we may as well eat, drink and be merry while we can!!!!, ironic that the ET doctrine actually (unwittingly perhaps???) encourages this philosophy and behavior more than either the UR or ED doctrines, as one could be screwed anyway, so what difference would it make, I'm certainly not confident enough to consider myself chosen, furthermore, I wouldn't want to be chosen anyway, at the expense of someone else's suffering anyway (Ironic that this makes me an apostate)

Quote" Then God gave him a vision of good and rotten apples and asked him "Would you really think it would be just to put all these apples into the same basket?" It was after this vision the author gained peace with the ET doctrine.

This raises a couple of questions, not least of which is

1) How can he be so sure that he isn't a rotten apple himself? (funny how these types always consider themselves righteous)

2) Who created the rotten apple ????, the rotten apple certainly didn't create itself, in other words, if the rotten apple hadn't come into existence, there wouldn't be a rotten apple in the first place

QuoteRead "Heavenly Dog" by Charles Slagle and CONSIDER THIS

If ET is true then mr. Slagle wasn't visited by Heavenly Father but by the Dark One. And apparently God totally approved of that. This, to me, is just as egregious as it gets. It's like adding insult to injury. What kind of a crappy father this God is? His children are in great agony, asking for bread and not only he has Satan give them a stone but also he tricks people in believing the stone is actually bread given by God. I just cannot for the life of me muster out of myself love towards this kind of God. "You dislike rejoicing in my righteous judgments, huh? Okay, I let Satan have you then!" Is He really THAT indifferent?!?!?

You have a point there, HOW in the world does one KNOW for sure whether it's true or not it's totally unprovable, but one thing I know for sure is that ET christians would find this far less credible than the likes of Mary Baxter and Bill Weise and others of that ilk who have made MOUNTAINS of money broadcasting their (experiences??!!) to the world... a win win situation for them as they get to terrorize people AND make a fast buck whilst they are at it...whereas Gary, Charles and others haven't made anything, they have posted for altruistic reasons, if one is consistent then one has to rule ALL Nde's as possible deceptions, not just the ones that suit our mindset or theology....and what purpose does it serve for an all loving God to PURPOSELY deceive us

I must admit though that I personally think that if UR isn't true then there is definitely a stronger case for ED than ET, although this link makes it hard to refute ED in favor of UR (there are some valid points he makes in chapter 8), it successfully debunks ET as it's based solely on scripture, I personally think ED has more common with UR than ET

http://www.hell-know.net/

QuoteThey say faith starts where the knowledge ends. So... I admit I can't KNOW the eternal destiny of mankind so all I can have is faith. I choose to have faith in God one day being All in All. I'm not sure whether I should take that as "All in everyone who ever existed" (UR) or "All in everyone who still remain" (ED) but for the sake of whatever is left of my sanity I really must abandon the doctrine of ET.

If I'm wrong, then well... I'm going to counter that "Depart from me for I never knew you!" with "Sir, all I can say is I wish I never knew you either".

This is where I agree with you, one cannot love an ET God and retain their sanity without losing their empathy or compassion, I'll give a few analogies to put across my point

If I had the most kind and loving husband in the world, but later found out he was a serial rapist and murder or pedophile, I would divorce him at the soonest possible moment, his being good to me doesn't excuse or condone his vile actions (The BTK killer's wife divorced him once he was caught and exposed)

I get enraged when I hear about sexual abuse of children and the law that are there to protect pedophiles, I instinctively have such a revulsion towards it

However revolting I find pedophiles, I find the concept of ET a million times more revolting, every instinct in my body goes against this concept, I find it so morally repugnant, words can't express how I feel and I certainly can't reconcile this concept with an all loving God

All the responses have been very helpful, thanks all, chuckt I haven't read that Martin Zender book, but I do have one of his other books that I read (One about the ET doctrine)

 :cloud9: Some very good replies here..... :thumbsup:

All I want to add is, did you ever consider that Moses was a murderer yet he was on the Mt. of Transfiguration with Jesus?  :mshock:

And he lived before grace was revealed thru the Son, so he should have REALLY been "toasted" by then, yet there he was, in the glory.

Oh, I forgot....the BETTER covenant, the GOOD NEWS, is to fry everyone......guess Moses didn't get that memo...... :winkgrin: :laughing7:

Quote from: Cardinal on September 03, 2010, 03:59:12 AM
:cloud9: Some very good replies here..... :thumbsup:

All I want to add is, did you ever consider that Moses was a murderer yet he was on the Mt. of Transfiguration with Jesus?  :mshock:

And he lived before grace was revealed thru the Son, so he should have REALLY been "toasted" by then, yet there he was, in the glory.

Oh, I forgot....the BETTER covenant, the GOOD NEWS, is to fry everyone......guess Moses didn't get that memo...... :winkgrin: :laughing7:

That's what I tell myself everytimes christians speak about preaching the good news to people.
How can that be good news?
- Believe in what I believe or else you'll suffer in flames for eternity!

If any other religious groups came to you with that kind of statements, you'd look at them and wonder how they can be brainwashed enough to call it a good new.

How christians can be deceived (I was part of that too) is beyond me.

Altho it may seem incredulous that Christians could be so deceived, consider:

In the earlier centuries of Roman domination of the 'church'- the edicts of the emperor of Rome enforced doctrinal conformity  pain of ex communication, expulsion from the Roman empire, loss of property and even death for heretics. This kind of theological totalitarianism was the rule from the 5th century right up until the 1800's when religious freedom began to be realized on a widespread basis in the US.

The Roman authorities, burned cities and nations over religious issues all through the middle ages, then, when the renaissance changed the scene a bit, Luther, Calvin and Knox all began to kill various opponents and manipulate governments to enforce theology. The crusades and other wars in Europe in the middle ages were often fought over theological issues.

People who teach universal reconciliation are swimming against a stream of orthodoxy that goes back over 1400 years and the price of becoming a CULT or a HERETIC is still expulsion from fellowship, censure, the ruination of ones reputation (identified as a false teacher etc.). In our collective consciousness the awareness that you have to hold the line on certain doctrines or you will be EXPELLED from the love and fellowship of Christ and MADE LIABLE to eternal flames has been pounded into the minds of Western Christians for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Therefore, while we must proclaim the truth, the servant of the Lord must not strive....but be gentle towards all, patiently instructing them and PRAYING for those that OPPOSE THEMSELVES that they may escape the snare of the devil in which they are captivated.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(2Co 4:3-4)

Quote from: eaglesway on September 06, 2010, 07:47:10 PM
Altho it may seem incredulous that Christians could be so deceived, consider:

In the earlier centuries of Roman domination of the 'church'- the edicts of the emperor of Rome enforced doctrinal conformity  pain of ex communication, expulsion from the Roman empire, loss of property and even death for heretics. This kind of theological totalitarianism was the rule from the 5th century right up until the 1800's when religious freedom began to be realized on a widespread basis in the US.

The Roman authorities, burned cities and nations over religious issues all through the middle ages, then, when the renaissance changed the scene a bit, Luther, Calvin and Knox all began to kill various opponents and manipulate governments to enforce theology. The crusades and other wars in Europe in the middle ages were often fought over theological issues.

People who teach universal reconciliation are swimming against a stream of orthodoxy that goes back over 1400 years and the price of becoming a CULT or a HERETIC is still expulsion from fellowship, censure, the ruination of ones reputation (identified as a false teacher etc.). In our collective consciousness the awareness that you have to hold the line on certain doctrines or you will be EXPELLED from the love and fellowship of Christ and MADE LIABLE to eternal flames has been pounded into the minds of Western Christians for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Therefore, while we must proclaim the truth, the servant of the Lord must not strive....but be gentle towards all, patiently instructing them and PRAYING for those that OPPOSE THEMSELVES that they may escape the snare of the devil in which they are captivated.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(2Co 4:3-4)

Well said.

Quote from: Lefein on September 01, 2010, 07:32:22 AM
...Even rotten apples contain good seed if God is the one planting them.

Who am I to be better than the rotten apple?  I too am rotten, I was rotten, my body is rotten, and rot it shall.  Only the seed of Christ within my worm infested walking corpse, is what makes me worthy to be in his harvest.  If God can pull me off the ground, a foul, rotten, hideous, worm riddled fruit!  And make me half decent, and better; Glorify me from the inside out...Then by God (literally) he can do it for every apple on that tree!

If ET is real, and this thing of "free will choice to choose God = salvation" thing is real by that mark...Then in Heaven I hope by my free-will to refuse all fellowship with such gloating, fat, dirty saints who revel in the Hell of their fellow man...who are only in Heaven by the literal skin of their confessing teeth.  I want no part of a glorified congregation made into coliseum spectators.

If ET is real, I will merely have to bow, and reverence the High Tyrant, who by some Olympian whim decided to pluck me out of my doom, to set me on a high mountain and watch as he casts down a vast score of humanity's tree into a form of barbarity unspeakable.  Whilst my deathless brothers surround, and laugh upon them through their glearing grins; these bastard-white saints, who deserve that same Hell just as much as I.  For it has been said: "Hell is there, so the saints will enjoy Heaven more".

If ET is real, then I beg the King who damned his creation...Do not let my tears be wiped away!  Let me cry forever, so that eventually the drops from my face will fill all of Hell and quench that fire at last...At least some one will care enough about them to show the unfailing love that you insisted we have.  I wouldn't want to enjoy Heaven anyway, how could I enjoy play in pearled glory while the multitudes below me scream so cruelly?

If ET is real, then my given glory is a joke, and cruel one at that.  Because if God can't do, or won't do what he says he will for All, then I cannot trust him to do what he said he will do for me.  Trust is the foundation of Love, and if I cannot trust God, how can I love him?  If I cannot love God...There is no love in me, for God is Love, and God would not be in me, and I would then be damned in turn to that very Eternal Torment, being a rotten apple, and not having the seed of Christ in me.

If ET is real, then I can only hope that Heaven has a long tab of drink, by which I can drown forever my sorrow, and forget it all.

If ET is real, how can the loving touch of Christ's hand on my shoulder be received as anything but the touch of a cruel father, who with the same hand that flung the blood of billions into never-ending hideousy, would try and tell me that he loves me?  That I can trust him, that he'll take care of me?

What wife would trust their husband to love them, after seeing him commit genocide?  Even of the wicked?  Death without end, without purpose, without remedial gain...simple vindictive torture forever...?

What daughter, after seeing the hands of her father strangle a man who rejected him, and strangle him again, and again, and again, torturing him with burning hands...Would that daughter not scream and flee when those same hands try to reach down to pick her up?

...Such hypocrisy...

God is no hypocrite, God is Infinite Love.

Great post  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Aleax on September 01, 2010, 05:20:04 PM
Thanks for the replies all.

And sorry about the outburst but seriously never in my life had I felt so utterly hopeless as on 29th and 30th. I'm a bit better now.

No, I'm not going to give up. At least not yet. I'll try to find out God's will for my life and act accordingly.

They say faith starts where the knowledge ends. So... I admit I can't KNOW the eternal destiny of mankind so all I can have is faith. I choose to have faith in God one day being All in All. I'm not sure whether I should take that as "All in everyone who ever existed" (UR) or "All in everyone who still remain" (ED) but for the sake of whatever is left of my sanity I really must abandon the doctrine of ET.

If I'm wrong, then well... I'm going to counter that "Depart from me for I never knew you!" with "Sir, all I can say is I wish I never knew you either".  :dontknow:

For people who care about other people the doctrine of ET is toxic  and I believe also for those who are prone to depression .....  When I was growing up at 14 or 15 I rejected christianity because of that doctrine ......  The mixed message of us being told to  love your enemies, but God will not love those that do not believe in him, he will eternally torment them made no sense to me.....   I always believed in a spirit world and God but was turned away from christianity for years.  

Quote from: meerkat on September 06, 2010, 10:51:48 PM

Quote from: Aleax on September 01, 2010, 05:20:04 PM
Thanks for the replies all.

And sorry about the outburst but seriously never in my life had I felt so utterly hopeless as on 29th and 30th. I'm a bit better now.

No, I'm not going to give up. At least not yet. I'll try to find out God's will for my life and act accordingly.

They say faith starts where the knowledge ends. So... I admit I can't KNOW the eternal destiny of mankind so all I can have is faith. I choose to have faith in God one day being All in All. I'm not sure whether I should take that as "All in everyone who ever existed" (UR) or "All in everyone who still remain" (ED) but for the sake of whatever is left of my sanity I really must abandon the doctrine of ET.

If I'm wrong, then well... I'm going to counter that "Depart from me for I never knew you!" with "Sir, all I can say is I wish I never knew you either".  :dontknow:

For people who care about other people the doctrine of ET is toxic  and I believe also for those who are prone to depression .....  When I was growing up at 14 or 15 I rejected christianity because of that doctrine ......  The mixed message of us being told to  love your enemies, but God will not love those that do not believe in him, he will eternally torment them made no sense to me.....   I always believed in a spirit world and God but was turned away from christianity for years.  

I believe there is no other doctrine that has done more harm to the Christian faith.

Quote from: shawn on September 06, 2010, 10:55:44 PMI believe there is no other doctrine that has done more harm to the Christian faith.

Certainly for the people that are Christians.
But if I have to decide science did more harm to Christianity. Or more correctly the reponse of church to science. Earth is flat. All planets circle around earth. Planets move in perfect circles because God won't creating imperfect ellipces etc.
It's often said education drives out religion. I think that's true. But why? I think mainly because of church doctrine. For many people Bible=Church.
But in reality Bible != Church
And that sick ET stuff is part of it

As I wrote before:
UR= Mercy/grace
ED= Justice
ET= Sick/vengence

:2c:

Quote from: meerkat on September 06, 2010, 10:51:48 PM
the doctrine of ET is toxic

By the leader of the hairy tics (//http://) :laughing7:

Quote from: Lefein on September 01, 2010, 07:32:22 AM
...Even rotten apples contain good seed if God is the one planting them.

Who am I to be better than the rotten apple?  I too am rotten, I was rotten, my body is rotten, and rot it shall.  Only the seed of Christ within my worm infested walking corpse, is what makes me worthy to be in his harvest.  If God can pull me off the ground, a foul, rotten, hideous, worm riddled fruit!  And make me half decent, and better; Glorify me from the inside out...Then by God (literally) he can do it for every apple on that tree!

If ET is real, and this thing of "free will choice to choose God = salvation" thing is real by that mark...Then in Heaven I hope by my free-will to refuse all fellowship with such gloating, fat, dirty saints who revel in the Hell of their fellow man...who are only in Heaven by the literal skin of their confessing teeth.  I want no part of a glorified congregation made into coliseum spectators.

If ET is real, I will merely have to bow, and reverence the High Tyrant, who by some Olympian whim decided to pluck me out of my doom, to set me on a high mountain and watch as he casts down a vast score of humanity's tree into a form of barbarity unspeakable.  Whilst my deathless brothers surround, and laugh upon them through their glearing grins; these bastard-white saints, who deserve that same Hell just as much as I.  For it has been said: "Hell is there, so the saints will enjoy Heaven more".

If ET is real, then I beg the King who damned his creation...Do not let my tears be wiped away!  Let me cry forever, so that eventually the drops from my face will fill all of Hell and quench that fire at last...At least some one will care enough about them to show the unfailing love that you insisted we have.  I wouldn't want to enjoy Heaven anyway, how could I enjoy play in pearled glory while the multitudes below me scream so cruelly?

If ET is real, then my given glory is a joke, and cruel one at that.  Because if God can't do, or won't do what he says he will for All, then I cannot trust him to do what he said he will do for me.  Trust is the foundation of Love, and if I cannot trust God, how can I love him?  If I cannot love God...There is no love in me, for God is Love, and God would not be in me, and I would then be damned in turn to that very Eternal Torment, being a rotten apple, and not having the seed of Christ in me.

If ET is real, then I can only hope that Heaven has a long tab of drink, by which I can drown forever my sorrow, and forget it all.

If ET is real, how can the loving touch of Christ's hand on my shoulder be received as anything but the touch of a cruel father, who with the same hand that flung the blood of billions into never-ending hideousy, would try and tell me that he loves me?  That I can trust him, that he'll take care of me?

What wife would trust their husband to love them, after seeing him commit genocide?  Even of the wicked?  Death without end, without purpose, without remedial gain...simple vindictive torture forever...?

What daughter, after seeing the hands of her father strangle a man who rejected him, and strangle him again, and again, and again, torturing him with burning hands...Would that daughter not scream and flee when those same hands try to reach down to pick her up?

...Such hypocrisy...

God is no hypocrite, God is Infinite Love.

thats just human reasoning, God can do whatever he wants....... ok now just kidding...great post!!!

Great post indeed Lefein.

I'd like to add that if ET is real I hope I get the chance to blow up a Christian daycare center one day. All those children inside the building will never reach the 'age of accountability' and the personnel will go to heaven because of their faith. Sure, that act will most probably close the Pearly Gates for me forever but hey, doesn't New Testament teach there's no greater thing than to sacrifice yourself for other people?

Anyway...

I'd very much suggest "God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross" (by Dora van Assen) to anyone still struggling with the ET doctrine.

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/searchdb.php?what=author&searchfor=|VAN%20ASSEN,%20DORA|&type=&show=titles&showitems=

Potentially life changing material. I feel that in the very recent days my fractured heart has finally started to believe ET is a lie and God really does love us. An interesting thing happened to me last morning. I was about to leave for the bus stop when I noticed my travel card was missing, the plastic cover that was supposed to contain the card was empty. I put the empty cover on my bed, checked the bedroom and the card was nowhere to be found. Rummaged through the mess that is my living room and no card was found. However, then I went back to the bedroom and, much to my astonishment, the card was now inside the plastic cover. Now that was a bit scary, even. :mshock: but I had no time to stop and think, I just grabbed the card and ran for the bus stop.

That experience made me believe God is not our enemy but our ally and He wants to help us even with small everyday matters like with lost travel cards. :)

QuoteThat experience made me believe God is not our enemy but our ally and He wants to help us even with small everyday matters like with lost travel cards. :)

Absolutely!   :thumbsup: I love it when things like that happen.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2010, 11:33:20 PM

Quote from: shawn on September 06, 2010, 10:55:44 PMI believe there is no other doctrine that has done more harm to the Christian faith.

Certainly for the people that are Christians.
But if I have to decide science did more harm to Christianity. Or more correctly the reponse of church to science. Earth is flat. All planets circle around earth. Planets move in perfect circles because God won't creating imperfect ellipces etc.
It's often said education drives out religion. I think that's true. But why? I think mainly because of church doctrine. For many people Bible=Church.
But in reality Bible != Church
And that sick ET stuff is part of it

As I wrote before:
UR= Mercy/grace
ED= Justice
ET= Sick/vengence

:2c:

Great post and I agree.

Quote from: eaglesway on September 06, 2010, 07:47:10 PM
Altho it may seem incredulous that Christians could be so deceived, consider:

In the earlier centuries of Roman domination of the 'church'- the edicts of the emperor of Rome enforced doctrinal conformity  pain of ex communication, expulsion from the Roman empire, loss of property and even death for heretics. This kind of theological totalitarianism was the rule from the 5th century right up until the 1800's when religious freedom began to be realized on a widespread basis in the US.

The Roman authorities, burned cities and nations over religious issues all through the middle ages, then, when the renaissance changed the scene a bit, Luther, Calvin and Knox all began to kill various opponents and manipulate governments to enforce theology. The crusades and other wars in Europe in the middle ages were often fought over theological issues.

People who teach universal reconciliation are swimming against a stream of orthodoxy that goes back over 1400 years and the price of becoming a CULT or a HERETIC is still expulsion from fellowship, censure, the ruination of ones reputation (identified as a false teacher etc.). In our collective consciousness the awareness that you have to hold the line on certain doctrines or you will be EXPELLED from the love and fellowship of Christ and MADE LIABLE to eternal flames has been pounded into the minds of Western Christians for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Therefore, while we must proclaim the truth, the servant of the Lord must not strive....but be gentle towards all, patiently instructing them and PRAYING for those that OPPOSE THEMSELVES that they may escape the snare of the devil in which they are captivated.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(2Co 4:3-4)

That was so uplifting, thank you Eaglesway.
:thumbsup:

Quote from: Aleax on September 11, 2010, 08:02:48 AM
Potentially life changing material. I feel that in the very recent days my fractured heart has finally started to believe ET is a lie and God really does love us. An interesting thing happened to me last morning. I was about to leave for the bus stop when I noticed my travel card was missing, the plastic cover that was supposed to contain the card was empty. I put the empty cover on my bed, checked the bedroom and the card was nowhere to be found. Rummaged through the mess that is my living room and no card was found. However, then I went back to the bedroom and, much to my astonishment, the card was now inside the plastic cover. Now that was a bit scary, even. :mshock: but I had no time to stop and think, I just grabbed the card and ran for the bus stop.

That experience made me believe God is not our enemy but our ally and He wants to help us even with small everyday matters like with lost travel cards. :)

:cloud9: Absolutely He does. I once left my bible face down where I had left off reading, locked my bedroom door, went to church, came back and it was now face down IN A DIFFERENT BOOK OF THE BIBLE, exposing the answer to the question I had asked Him while in church. I was astonished, to say the least.

He's sent angels to fix my car and make it run long enough to get me the 2 hour hour drive home, only to have someone look at it and discover the car's spark plug wires had been ripped off and there was no way it should have even started.

I have a friend who was out of gas away from home out in the country and didn't realize she didn't have her billfold, and prayed to get home. She drove 35 miles on a tank that should have been bone dry.

He gives His angels charge over us. We need only to believe and put them to work thru prayer! Blessings....

Who needs oil, when you have Gods angels of fire.

My car is powered by Angelic fire, I wonder how many miles per gallon it can do  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on September 11, 2010, 07:46:16 PM
Who needs oil, when you have Gods angels of fire.

My car is powered by Angelic fire, I wonder how many miles per gallon it can do  :laughing7:

50 miles. Downhill :winkgrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2010, 10:49:15 PM

Quote from: thinktank on September 11, 2010, 07:46:16 PM
Who needs oil, when you have Gods angels of fire.

My car is powered by Angelic fire, I wonder how many miles per gallon it can do  :laughing7:

50 miles. Downhill :winkgrin:

:laughing7:,  My car is so fast it leaves a trail of hell fire behind it !

I prefer flying personally.

Well...not really, I've never flown before.

Quote from: Lefein on September 14, 2010, 12:24:01 AM
I prefer flying personally.

Well...not really, I've never flown before.

I hope YAH allows cars in his future kingdom. I wonder if there be a museum of cars that sinfull man used to drive in. A tour of the history of sinfull man for future beings to look at. If God allows it in the future kingdom I might set up a museum for the history of man, your all welcome to pop bye.

If I know anything of Heaven, the glorified mind - directly inspired, will have the capacity to create technology bordering on the ludicrously advanced.

Quote from: Lefein on September 14, 2010, 12:24:01 AM
I prefer flying personally.

Well...not really, I've never flown before.

lol

Quote from: Lefein on September 14, 2010, 12:30:05 AM
If I know anything of Heaven, the glorified mind - directly inspired, will have the capacity to create technology bordering on the ludicrously advanced.

Do you think there be technology? I'm not sure, it could be that we as advanced spiritual beings would not need technology, e.g we would teleport instead of travelling by car, or that we would all heal our bodies without neding healing technology. It could be a mix of both tough, a spiritual and technological utopia.

God adorned his glory with wheels, chariots, and other materialesque tokens: thrones are material things, and so are sapphire expanses.

New Jerusalem is a spiritual city, adorned with transparent gold, jewels, and mansions.

Our glorified bodies are adorned with robes, and crowns.

Technology on Earth is produced out of need.  Technology in Heaven will be produced (I believe) out of artistry.

Quote from: Lefein on September 14, 2010, 12:40:17 AM
God adorned his glory with wheels, chariots, and other materialesque tokens: thrones are material things, and so are sapphire expanses.

New Jerusalem is a spiritual city, adorned with transparent gold, jewels, and mansions.

Our glorified bodies are adorned with robes, and crowns.

Technology on Earth is produced out of need.  Technology in Heaven will be produced (I believe) out of artistry.

Nice, bravo. The streets are,  lined with gold, in a world where everyone is rich, so the gold is merely decoration the real king is the lord Jesus Christ.

Uh . . . actually there are no streets of gold in the New Jerusalem.  It's only "one" street.  It's the same picture as the one river through the garden that pours out into Eden. 

It's the same as the one river, crystal in clarity in Revelation.  They are all revealing the same truth. 

God isn't adorning us with trinkets as much as he is reveailing to us that "he" is running through us, he is our path, he is the one who's created a way ahead of us. We live, we dwell, we travel on the road he's already prepared ahead of us.

The gold represents the invaluable nature of his love, direction, and illumination in us.  We are the New Jerusalem and his street runs through us.  He perfects us with his presence.  The quality of the gold in the street of this New Jerusalem can't be compared by anything carnal.  Gold is the closest resemblence to his purity because the process we go through in this realm emmulates the process a person goes through as he perfects us.

Gold in it's purest form is transparent.  Once he refines us in this carnality, we become transparent to one another.  We are no longer clouded in understanding of who he is or who we are in him.  We are his most precious.  He bought us at a great price and as far as he is concerned we are worth every penny, metaphorically speaking of course.

Quote from: Nathan on September 14, 2010, 01:34:28 AM
Uh . . . actually there are no streets of gold in the New Jerusalem.  It's only "one" street.  It's the same picture as the one river through the garden that pours out into Eden. 

It's the same as the one river, crystal in clarity in Revelation.  They are all revealing the same truth. 

God isn't adorning us with trinkets as much as he is reveailing to us that "he" is running through us, he is our path, he is the one who's created a way ahead of us. We live, we dwell, we travel on the road he's already prepared ahead of us.

The gold represents the invaluable nature of his love, direction, and illumination in us.  We are the New Jerusalem and his street runs through us.  He perfects us with his presence.  The quality of the gold in the street of this New Jerusalem can't be compared by anything carnal.  Gold is the closest resemblence to his purity because the process we go through in this realm emmulates the process a person goes through as he perfects us.

Gold in it's purest form is transparent.  Once he refines us in this carnality, we become transparent to one another.  We are no longer clouded in understanding of who he is or who we are in him.  We are his most precious.  He bought us at a great price and as far as he is concerned we are worth every penny, metaphorically speaking of course.

:goodpost:

 :cloud9:   :thumbsup:

I'm going to be honest, I'm getting really sick and tired of every reward in Heaven being said to be nothing more than some half-esoteric, or ethereal metaphor that pretty much makes the glorified new existence into nothing more than a bastardised Judaic form of Nirvana...

I'm expecting bread - hot, steamy, warm, delicious bread...not a metaphorical rock that exists "inside my soul".

I understand you Lefein, but were are told to look for the celestial things not earthly things and when the Spirit of God fills you, you have no interest for what is earthly because these things do not satisfy.
See Jesus and the samaritan woman.

Like somebody said not long ago, we understand because we come from where you are but we won't go back.

I too, thought exactly like you about these things, I too, hoped for a perfect, earthly life. But it isn't to be said we won't have one, it is that if your focus is on these things, you won't see the Kingdom of God.
:bigGrin:

 :cloud9: Eye hath not seen and ear hath not heard.....that means we can't imagine with our carnal minds anything any better than what He has prepared for us, and is why I don't try to. My  :2c: Blessings....

If the Kingdom of God is nothing more than a glorified metaphor then it is thoroughly useless...And I have been gloriously cheated.

[edit - personal opinion stated about deception] That's all we're saying here.

...Then what is the Kingdom of God?

When I say "Kingdom of God" I mean, "where am I going to be ten trillion years down the road" kind of thing.

Is it a metaphor?  Or is it real?  Will I be able to touch it?  Or is it all in my figurative head?

Quote from: Lefein on September 14, 2010, 02:10:09 AM
I'm going to be honest, I'm getting really sick and tired of every reward in Heaven being said to be nothing more than some half-esoteric, or ethereal metaphor that pretty much makes the glorified new existence into nothing more than a bastardised Judaic form of Nirvana...

I'm expecting bread - hot, steamy, warm, delicious bread...not a metaphorical rock that exists "inside my soul".

I understand.  I believe we can go so far from one extreme to the other, that we can forget some things that are still in play.  Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. 

We've been revealed what IS for this age and the next.
After that we have no clue except the certitude that God can only purpose that which is perfect!

If all we have is hot bread, then we've all been gloriously cheated.  :bigGrin:

What is not revealed by the Spirit can't be reached by the carnal mind Lefein. How can any man guess the full plan of God?

There is already enough spiritual wisdom to look at to keep you busy for every hours of everyday of your life, why try to search for things that have not been revealed?

I can only share what I personally see.  You have to have your own personal "revelation".  This "revelation" topic really is an important one because "that's" what Jesus proclaimed he's going to build his church on and the gates of hell (Ghenna) can't withstand it.  God's word isn't just presented to us . . it's "in" us.  But we can't see or hear it until we do what John did in Revelation . . .he had to turn around to "see" the voice he was hearing.  Since when does one "see" what one hears?  "That's" what revelation is.  God is unveiling truth and we're discerning the difference between noise (religious minds) and sound (truth and light from the Father).

What I see is that when there is a completion to this natural experience we call earth, the God of restoration will return all things back to the way they were before man was driven out of the spirit realm in the first place.  

Everything your eyes see are evidence of the fact the natural realm is still the predominant realm in our existance.  But originally, the spirit realm was the predominant one.  But because Adam chose to live according to knowledge, the curse was inflicted by him when he brought disorder to God's spiritual alignment in his creation.

Jesus came in the flesh and redeemed man back to God.  He reversed the curse.  It was already finished in the spirit realm, Jesus fulfilled it in the natural, but as the natural realm goes, we are confined to time.  When the time comes to it's end . . .not time itself, but the time when God's will becomes complete in this realm, this natural realm will return to it's original alignment which is to say natural will be as spiritual is now.  And spiritual will be as natural is now.

This is not a doctrine by any means, it's just what I see from where I am in my relationship with the Father on this given day.

 :cloud9: The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. The Kingdom of God is not merely a location but a NATURE, the nature of the King, in the Holy Ghost, which is IN YOU.

If you died today, you would find you have been in the Kingdom all along (your spirit man), and the Kingdom was in you. Blessings....

QuoteIf all we have is hot bread, then we've all been gloriously cheated.

Atleast I'd have bread, and not just some "good moral, or proverb" at the end of the Aesop's fable that is this hideously deformed existence of life.

That is the point I'm trying to make.

QuoteThere is already enough spiritual wisdom to look at to keep you busy for every hours of everyday of your life, why try to search for things that have not been revealed?

I don't already?

I'm not some carnal, meat-bag, nominal Christian who expects to play golf in Heaven, eating twinkies all day while angels rub my feet.  But I'm not going to flaunt around as some ray of anonymous light, or presence in an (appalling) heavenly hive-mind either where every reward I've been promised is literally nothing more than eternal moral or proverb.

All I can say to your responses is that all I desire is for God to illuminate his truth in me and if that means I must do a drastic make-over/overhaul of what I see before me now, so beit.  I don't want to put him in a box that could hinder me from experiencing new heights in him this limited mind could never comprehend on any level.

Quote from: Cardinal on September 14, 2010, 02:49:45 AM
:cloud9: The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. The Kingdom of God is not merely a location but a NATURE, the nature of the King, in the Holy Ghost, which is IN YOU.

If you died today, you would find you have been in the Kingdom all along (your spirit man), and the Kingdom was in you. Blessings....

Again Lefein, agreed.  So many times we make it all one thing and not the other.  Balance anyone?   :laughing7:

Card, I agree with your post, and one of your last ones in another thread about "both".  Amen.  The kindgom is within/among, we are indwelt, etc...as you say "if we died today" we have already been born into the kingdom.  But as Lefein says as well, I believe we would be somewhere doing somethings.  And though I believe there certainly are extremes towards the orthodox end of interpretation, there are also extremes toward a so-called spiritual end.  Again, often there's a balance somewhere, and sadly it can be missed.   :2c:  

Quote from: Nathan on September 14, 2010, 03:00:28 AM
All I can say to your responses is that all I desire is for God to illuminate his truth in me and if that means I must do a drastic make-over/overhaul of what I see before me now, so beit.  I don't want to put him in a box that could hinder me from experiencing new heights in him this limited mind could never comprehend on any level.

I like this.  Seeking His will, revelation, whatever that may be.

QuoteI'm not some carnal, meat-bag, nominal Christian who expects to play golf in Heaven, eating twinkies all day while angels rub my feet.  But I'm not going to flaunt around as some ray of anonymous light, or presence in an (appalling) heavenly hive-mind either where every reward I've been promised is literally nothing more than eternal moral or proverb.

That may not be flattering to those twinkies-eaters but that one made me laugh.

But I don't think you're understanding all it implies(I'm not saying I do either... :mblush:)

It is obvious there's something else since we'll all die in the flesh and be resurrected to reign. This means there'll be much more that eternal moral or proverb. But we have nothing to base our understanding of what it is and we should not use our carnal imagination to "guess" what it'll look like.

Paul said that if we are hoping for this life we are the saddest of men but our hope is greater than that, it is based on the glorious resurrection of Jesus.

Read Nathan's post once more, I think he explains all of it much better than I. :bigGrin:

Quote from: Nathan on September 14, 2010, 03:00:28 AM
All I can say to your responses is that all I desire is for God to illuminate his truth in me and if that means I must do a drastic make-over/overhaul of what I see before me now, so beit.  I don't want to put him in a box that could hinder me from experiencing new heights in him this limited mind could never comprehend on any level.

:cloud9: Amen, Nate...ditto for me. Any box I ever tried to put Him in, He just set it and me on fire anyway.....
:bottlebump: :flamebreath: :pointlaugh: Blessings....

Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2010, 03:00:38 AM
I believe we would be somewhere doing somethings.

If when we see Him we shall be like Him than we will be here, there and everywhere doing what pleases the Father.
For He is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient.

Yes, Card, the alabaster box has been broken.

We need to bathe in the Oil.

...I hope to God I'm not omnipresent...

Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 14, 2010, 05:07:19 AM

Quote from: jabcat on September 14, 2010, 03:00:38 AM
I believe we would be somewhere doing somethings.

If when we see Him we shall be like Him than we will be here, there and everywhere doing what pleases the Father.
For He is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient.

Yes, Card, the alabaster box has been broken.

We need to bathe in the Oil.

Yeah, I don't think we're looking at a trillion years playing the ukelele floating on a cloud.  Although, I could be wrong.  (It could be a harp.   :angelharp:)

:winkgrin:

When some christians see the word "gold" they automatically think carnal, carnal, carnal, ironically it is the carnal mind with it's fears that jumps to these conclusions. Gold is a substance within the earth, that was created by our heavenly father, it is not of the devil.
Solomon was God's servant and he had more gold than probably anyone in the entire history of man.

It is also my belief that the heavenly realm is similar to the earth, for the scriptures declare that the natural mirrors the heavenly. In my opinion having a mansion or house of gold in heaven does not concern me, personally I'd prefer a villa :) or a log cabin in the countryside but it does not take away what the scriptures have written, that Jesus said there were many mansions in his fathers' house I go to prepare a place for you, if this was not the case he would not have told us.

A couple things . .first . . .Solomon was a significant example again of how kingdom principles work.  Solomon was Israel's "third" king.  The underlying theme all through Solomon's reign is that the land was at "rest".  David did nothing but win battles and be at war.  Solomon didn't have one nation rise against him.  Nothing is by coincidence, everything is patterned after the order of the kingdom.

Step into the kingdom, the vision of God's order becomes as crystal.  There were no signs of peace with the neighboring nations in David's reign leading up to Solomon's and there were no signs of peace after Solomon died.  It's all a pattern of the holiness of God.  Solomon was blessed with gold just as the holy of holies had it's articles made of gold placed in it.  The mercy seat being solid gold  which covers the three manifestations of God in the law, spirit (prophets) and Christ (manna). 

Secondly, the mansions thing . . .not to nit pick, but it's not mansions, it's rooms . . .Christ has gone on a head of us to prepare a place where we can live "in" him.  I believe he wasn't speaking about carving out a literal span of time or space, but I beleive he was talking about going to the cross.  That act created a place for all of us to live in him and him in us.

You still gotta live somewhere though right? Whether it's in a room or a mansion. If we live in Christ but don't have an actual physical location, then it means we live in darkness, for there would be nothing to see or behold.

Quote from: thinktank on September 14, 2010, 08:58:19 PM
You still gotta live somewhere though right? Whether it's in a room or a mansion. If we live in Christ but don't have an actual physical location, then it means we live in darkness, for there would be nothing to see or behold.

I think Nathan makes an interesting point, well worth considering from the spiritual aspect.  But again TT, I agree, I don't think it's one or the other. 

What?  You don't to just be a little sunbeam?   :dsunny:

Personally, I am going to live on one of the stars or planets and create my own little abode where there are rivers of flowing peaceful water.  A place with lots of different kinds of flowers.  A place where I can walk in safety. A place that has everything one could want in beauty and necessities.  I think that is a place like the garden of Eden but it doesn't have to be on earth. A person can dream can't they? :happy3:

CHB

Quote from: CHB on September 14, 2010, 10:31:42 PM
Personally, I am going to live on one of the stars or planets and create my own little abode where there are rivers of flowing peaceful water.  A place with lots of different kinds of flowers.  A place where I can walk in safety. A place that has everything one could want in beauty and necessities.  I think that is a place like the garden of Eden but it doesn't have to be on earth. A person can dream can't they? :happy3:

CHB

Sounds good, can I come and visit? or is it private property?   :bigGrin:

Good point though, there are so many planets in this physical universe, imagine how many in the spiritual? and God is so large that it's within scriptural reason that some saints if they have been good stewards, might even be rewarded with their very own planet to live on  :happy3:

That's how you create mormonism.

Quote
Secondly, the mansions thing . . .not to nit pick, but it's not mansions, it's rooms . . .Christ has gone on a head of us to prepare a place where we can live "in" him.  I believe he wasn't speaking about carving out a literal span of time or space, but I beleive he was talking about going to the cross.  That act created a place for all of us to live in him and him in us.

Metaphor...

Actually, it goes beyond a metaphor . . .the culture of a Jew was that when a Father found a bride for his son, the son would go to his father's house and build an add-on room in preparation for his bride to come and live with him in his father's house . . .not to hard to do the math on that one.

 :cloud9: Yep..... :thumbsup: don't you just love His "pictures"? No one does "show and tell" like God does.... :laughing7:

it strikes me a little odd that people cringe at the word "metephor" or "allegory" because for me, it's just a modern day term for the word "parable".  Romans 1:20 states that God uses natural things to reveal spiritual truths . . that's what a parable does.  That was the ONLY way Jesus shared the kingdom.  It was to make people thirsty for more.  It frustrated the disciples to no end though.

Jesus get's on the boat and warns the disciples to beware of the leven of the pharisees and they're all on pins and needles thinking Jesus is upset at them for forgetting to bring food for the trip.

Jesus questions their longevity with his teachings because in his eyes, the parable of the four soils was elementary and they were lost at it's meaning.  He told them "if you guys can't grasp "this" one, how are you going to be able to undertsand anything else I tell you?"

It's spiritual food not meant for the head to filter.  If it's not seen, then let it pass.  It'll come back eventually, the Holy Spirit desires all to see the depths of truth, not just a few here and there.  And truth doesn't lie on the surface, it would get trampled on by the careless.  It's not hidden "from" us, it's hidden "for" us.  But once the relationship of revelation starts in us . . .hold on to your hat!!

Quote from: Nathan on September 15, 2010, 03:06:04 AM
It's spiritual food not meant for the head to filter.  If it's not seen, then let it pass.  It'll come back eventually, the Holy Spirit desires all to see the depths of truth, not just a few here and there.  And truth doesn't lie on the surface, it would get trampled on by the careless.  It's not hidden "from" us, it's hidden "for" us.  But once the relationship of revelation starts in us . . .hold on to your hat!!

:cloud9: AMEN  :thumbsup:

QuoteIt's spiritual food not meant for the head to filter.  If it's not seen, then let it pass.  It'll come back eventually, the Holy Spirit desires all to see the depths of truth, not just a few here and there.  And truth doesn't lie on the surface, it would get trampled on by the careless.  It's not hidden "from" us, it's hidden "for" us.  But once the relationship of revelation starts in us . . .hold on to your hat!!

Ye may not give that which is [holy] to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before the swine, that they may not trample them among their feet, and having turned -- may rend you.

You bless me once again with a great post Nathan, thank you!

The problem isn't with the word "metaphor" the problem is with the implied concept of getting what is tantamount to a proverb.

The starving child grows up hungry every day; a priest in the village near by who has done the best he can for the starving child is only able to comfort him that Jesus will give him bread and he will never be hungry again.

The child dies.

He reaches Heaven, of course.  And smiles at Jesus, waiting with eager glee!  His hands held out, knowing his Father is at last before him, majestic, rich beyond measure, and surely the bread he promised will be satisfying to his hunger, more than ample recompense for the hideousity that he suffered on the fallen, dead, rotten earth below.

Jesus looks down at him...and with a bright, glorious smile whispers in his ear;

"Love, Truth, Life".

The child looks up...confused...

"I know those things...but I was promised bread..."

Jesus leans down and whispers in his ear once more;

"Love is kind, and forgives everyone, of everything."

The child grew weary...

"But what about the bread!"

For ten trillion years, the child and Jesus stood, passing spiritual proverbs...for pleas for bread that he was denied on earth.

This is what people cringe at.  Suffering hell on Earth, to get over-glorified sermons...and being expected to be "absolutely tid-tiddly jubilant" over it, or else they are ungrateful, and worse than the heathens.

That was exactly the case of the first temptation in the desert and what was Jesus' answer?

Read what Jesus answers to the people following Him in John 6:

26 I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.

Or to the Samaritan woman at the well?

Nobody can be satisfied with the earthly.

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 14, 2010, 11:48:27 PM
That's how you create mormonism.

Of course the focus of the gospel should be to live a holy life and material things should be secondary as jesus said to seek first the kingdom of God and all these other things shall be given unto you. But to me if one denies the materialistic life to a certain extent upon the earth, then when we are perfected in heaven then the material aspects will no longer dominate us/distract us or weaken us like they did upon the earth, but be a gift from the lord. He said to the disciples sell all you have on earth that you may have treasures in heaven, where no thief can take from you.

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 15, 2010, 04:32:38 AM
That was exactly the case of the first temptation in the desert and what was Jesus' answer?

Read what Jesus answers to the people following Him in John 6:

26 I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.

Or to the Samaritan woman at the well?

Nobody can be satisfied with the earthly.

Good post, also remember that if that child truly desired to taste of bread in his mouth, then he could taste manna from heaven, angels food.

You missed my whole point Nathan.

Sorry?  I never responded to your previous post.

I will say though that I'm not sure what it is you're trying to require here.  You seem to be pressing in for a "tangible" answer.  You seem to be frustrated by the symbolisms.  Is that the case? 

It is not so much that I am frustrated by the symbols themselves, as I am by the general interpretation (not of yours personally, but the interpretations I've seen from the "spiritual" minded groups), that the symbols are pretty much just that, symbols.

To give an example, the whole "mansions" thing, which a "spiritual" minded group tends to say doesn't mean a tangible somewhere, or place to live at all, but means only that;

"you have a place in the heart of Jesus, that's it, be happy about it, if you aren't happy about it, and still want a "real place to live in Heaven" then you are ungrateful, carnal, and not spiritually mature enough to be discussed with."

I certainly don't believe this is your voice - but it is unfortunately...something insisted by other people I have come across in my day.

You might say...I'm expressing my bitter displeasure at even the hints of overly spiritual interpretations of Glory.

It all goes back to my absolute hatred of the realm of thought that Heaven is nothing more than a Judaic form of Nirvana, where everyone is a part of this anonymous mass in metaphoric glorification of existing in this hive-mind consciousness that is one with "The Deity".

A concept which is appalling to me, Heaven being my hope that I will be a unique, genuine individual, free and beautified, expressing the full excellence of God through the artistic-forged vessel that I have become, a tangible vessel, that is able to be, not just "exist as a presence within a presence", who is "brighter than the sun", but not in a way that means I am luminous, but means rather that I am only spiritually illuminated to the truth of God's existence, therefore bright, but not in the physical sense.  In essence: Judaic "enlightenment" (glorified body)...for a Judaic Nirvana (glorified existence)...

I had a thought the other day, that sort of illustrates what I am so frustrated over, now...I am relatively young, and I don't know if you guys are an old crowd who doesn't know much about games these days...But the illustration is an MMORPG.

Imagine illustratively that the glorified life was a game, an online multiplayer game where everyone has a character.  Now, everyone is glorified, so their characters are all on the highest level, with the highest stats...and that's all pretty cool.

But, what good does it do if you have the highest level characters, with the highest level stats, if you are just bare bones data?  Even if you are "glorified" data, contained in a glorified-body "file"?

It doesn't do you much good, and it would be a very boring game indeed if your character was just glorified data, existing as a glorified file.

People want to have the highest stats, and the highest level in the game of course...that's what makes a character powerful, and effective.  But what good is the game, how entertaining (or rather, worthwhile) could it possibly be to play the game if you can't run around inside a beautifully glorified high graphics game-world, with the glorified avatar (the visible manifestation of the character you play) with awesome equipment containing the glorified data?

It is when it is insinuated by certain groups...that we are to be nothing but glorified data, in a glorified file...and that we're supposed to be outrageously joyful over such a fate, that I get a bit peeved.

If that makes any sense at all.

But yes, a tangible answer would be very helpful.  I'm not "carnal minded", but a tree can't root in thin air either, if you get my meaning.

As far as Heaven goes, and glorification, this is pretty much what I want: warning, it is in long-hand...

My own unique, individual, glorified, genuine, beautified Self - in a glorified body, in a glorified universe, in a magnificent dwelling, with the unique, individual, glorified, genuine, beautified self of the girl who was my wife on earth, and is now continuing in Heaven with me in an even greater, more genuine, more loving, better than marriage - free from the coercion of contract that is marriage through the law, but is now the deepest relationship between two glorified human beings through genuine love - by choice; relationship: Myself, Herself, and Jesus as Himself; his glorified being...

All having a private tea!

I'd love to sit in a really comfy chair as a glorified king, with my glorified queen - enjoying an uninterrupted tea with the King of Kings...

That sort of thing sounds wonderful.

:coffee2:

*phew*

...goodness, that was a hard thing to "get out"...lol...

Lefein, I don't want to sound harsh but the truth is that it is not because it happens in heavens that it is spiritual.

The thing is that it is not about our own littles fantasies (I include myself in here) but about God's purpose for mankind.

You said you are poetic and artitisc and from what you say, you sound awfully (to my own liking...don't mind it) romantic.

Anyway, you are where you are and I do not say that with arrogance or pity, my tone is full of love and understanding because I KNOW how you feel about it.

Let the Spirit of Truth guide you into that subject, ask Him to show you what His Glory is.

Because that's all we've tried to show you, we don't know for sure what awaits us individually but we know that anything we'll dream about with our finite minds and imagination is short of God's plan by miles.

One thing is sure, it is not a metaphoric proverb of moral perfection.
:winkgrin:

In love,

There are only minutes left in my day here before I head out but I do want to hover over this line of thought tomorrow perhaps.  I so enjoy spiritual conversations . . .conversations about spiritual matters and as far as I'm concerned, this is included in there as well.

I'll try to look for this thread when I get back to work tomorrow.

I can see your point Lefein, but here's what I say. I believe that what Nathan and others here say is correct in the sense that Christ within us is our hope and glory and we live in him and through him, and that is more important than the material, however this does not mean that when we get to heaven that all things we hold familiar no longer exist and that we transform into some kind of light frequency with absolute no resemblence to the human form. Don't let these spiritual groups you speak of take away your hope, their ideas are not based upon the gospel but rather upon eastern philosophy, ideas such as there is no being, no feelings, we are all part of the same conciousness, we just are etc.

Remember that in Genesis we were created in Gods image and even though sin has entered, we as humanity are Gods children and what we experience right now is God's will and that includes the material aspect that we interact with on a daily basis. Remember that God came primarily to restore our relationship with him and and so the material aspect is there for us to enjoy, as a gift from YAH.

Even in heaven God has a throne and also a steel rod, now is God materialistic? God gets angry, does that mean God is carnal? Resurected Jesus Christ ate fish with his disciples around the fire, was this a dream? so don't be fooled by these deceivers who take a large part of their philosophy from buddism, who say deny all reality and material - things that God gave to his children to enjoy.

Hmmn.  You're right thinktank.

How odd that I got so angry about it, bitter, and cynical, when it really does amount to nothing more than religious minds trying to make Jesus into Buddha's image...

Hmmn...

Quote from: TTEven in heaven God has a throne and also a steel rod,

Jesus is the one with the steel rod. I think it's no longer nneded when He hands over His kingdom.

Quote from: TTResurected Jesus Christ ate fish with his disciples around the fire, was this a dream?

(Matthew 26:29) and I say to you, that I may not drink henceforth on this produce of the vine, till that day when I may drink it with you new in the reign of my Father.'

Even in the "all in all" there will be drinking.

Quote from: LefeinAs far as Heaven goes, and glorification, this is pretty much what I want: warning, it is in long-hand...

My own unique, individual, glorified, genuine, beautified Self - in a glorified body, in a glorified universe, in a magnificent dwelling, with the unique, individual, glorified, genuine, beautified self of the girl who was my wife on earth, and is now continuing in Heaven with me in an even greater, more genuine, more loving, better than marriage - free from the coercion of contract that is marriage through the law, but is now the deepest relationship between two glorified human beings through genuine love - by choice; relationship: Myself, Herself, and Jesus as Himself; his glorified being...

All having a private tea!

I'd love to sit in a really comfy chair as a glorified king, with my glorified queen - enjoying an uninterrupted tea with the King of Kings...

That sort of thing sounds wonderful.

I'm with you, Lefein.  If we consider this beautiful world God has made for us, and that it is only a shadow of what is to come, it's beyond imagination how wonderful it will be. 

1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.



34Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

--Mat 25