QuoteWhy Christian Universalism is Wrong
By Pastor-Theologian
Posted on January 10, 2012
The Nature of God: Loving and Just
Universalism prefers to emphasize God's love at the expense of God's wrath. This view does injustice to the wrath of God since God's wrath is seen as part of God's glory. For example, when God reveals himself to Moses in Exodus 34 he reveals not only his compassion and his covenant faithfulness, but also his judging of the sin of the people. To minimize God's wrath one must also minimize God's compassion, his covenant faithfulness, and his forgiveness, all of which are also seen in this divine revelation.
To say that God must practice the same forgiveness he enjoins upon us overlooks two key notions: (1) God does forgive those who come to faith in Christ, and (2) it holds God to an impossible standard in that it expects God to sacrifice one aspect of his character at the expense of another. To say that God's love and grace will supersede his judgment and wrath is to establish priorities in the attributes of God that Scripture does not support.
It is true that 1 John 4:8 and 16 use a predicate nominative subset construction to state that God is love. Note, however that Hebrews 12:29 uses the same construction, in the context of a discussion of God's judgment against not just humanity but the entire created order (quoting the prophet Haggai) do emphasize that "God is a consuming fire." This means that if God is "love" as part of his essential nature, then God must also be a God of wrath and judgment, too, as part of his essential nature.
God's moral attributes are tempered by his non-moral attributes. That is, God's love must be an infinite love. Likewise, his justice or his wrath, or his truth, must also be infinite. The Westminster Shorter Catechism (WSC) expresses this correctly: "Q. 4: What is God? A: God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth." Each of these eight attributes is governed by the three states of infinity, eternality, and immutability. With regard to this issue, both God's holiness and his justice are infinite and eternal, not just his love. To give one priority over the other is to do injustice to the character of God as he is revealed in Scripture. To alter these priorities to suit our own fallible notions of morality is to fashion a god simply to suit our own likings.
If one can say that we must subordinate divine justice to divine love why can we not do the opposite and subordinate divine love to divine justice? While this is what the universalist accuses the traditionalist of doing, their accusation falls short of the mark. The traditionalist recognizes that both God's love and God's judgments are attributes of God. Since God is simple (in the philosophical sense) he must possess both of these attributes as part of his essential nature. To subordinate one to the other in either direction is to throw God's nature out of balance and thus make God less than the God he has revealed himself to be.
The fact is, many of the arguments inherent in universalism revolve around the human notion of fairness which not only compels God to act solely in accordance with human understanding, it also overlooks the all-knowing justice of God by which he can judge each person in absolute righteousness since he knows all things including the human heart (John 2:24-25; Heb. 4:13). It also ascribes to God an attribute absent in scripture. While the Scriptures repeatedly describe God as "just," "righteous," and "holy," nowhere do they describe God as "fair," as we understand fairness. So the EU, since he cannot see divine retribution as anything but unfair, applies human categories of fairness and then accuses God of injustice for his "righteous judgments."
But why is God unloving simply because he does not save all? As B. B. Warfield has illustrated,[15] we might be rightfully angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't, but we would not necessarily be angry with a judge who refused to show mercy. Indeed, we recognize that no criminal has the right to expect mercy and for us to demand mercy for them is overthrow the very idea of justice.
Though God has presented himself in healing terms (Isa. 53:5; Mal. 4:2), he does not present himself as such when it comes to salvation and condemnation. Instead, he represents himself as a judge (e.g., Gen. 18:25) and Jesus claims the same authority of judgment for blessing or condemnation for himself under the Father's authority (John 5:26-29).
John 5:26-29: "For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."
The implication in this passage is that the judgment is final and there is no change in destiny.
..
https://michaelrjones.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/why-christian-universalism-is-wrong/
:dontknow: Answers, please :Chinscratch:
By a pastor-theologian who won't even sign his own name, how intellectually courageous.
It amazes me how many people who disagree with UR so vehemently spend sooo much time and effort in writing articles and tomes disagreeing with it. I would never invest my own time and thoughts in something I disagreed with so strongly. I would get on with my own life. I don't really care about what they think. I have already come to my position after much consideration, prayer, study and God's dealings. Why would people imagine I would change my position after reading their opinion. We each must walk our own road. I don't know why people even feel the need to post other peoples anti-UR opinions. They don't mean anything and have no power over the truth we already believe.
I think God is big enough and capable enough of reconciling his own feelings and emotions without my carnal opinions and imput.
I love these bananas
:banana: :banana: :banana:
.....because many fail to rightly divide the word[sword of His mouth] they err and condemn to eternal destruction
those whom God worked redemption for..all of mankind. God showed in the scriptures through His dealings with Israel
how when they disobeyed He would bring a nation more wicked against them for correction/discipline and lead them
to repentance/return to Him. And after,would destroy that very nation.
when Adam and Eve disobeyed in the garden..eating from the tokogae.....evil become part of which they were to
partake and have knowledge of...culminating in death..as God judged. However,even during God's judgement at that time
He spoke of the woman's seed that would overcome the serpent/evil....and death.
The Revelation of Christ concludes with the new deathless state,free from all evil/wickedness and its fruit..as having
been consumed of God in the consummation of His restorative work. God with us!=reconciliation of all men.
the writer of the op makes out God as a hypocrite...do what I say,not what I do.........he thinks God is like himself.
Isaaih 57 the righteous perish and no-one ponders it in his heart,devout men are taken away and no-one understands
that the righteous are taken away TO BE SPARED FROM EVIL.those who walk uprightly enter into peace,they find rest
as they lie in death...
God made man upright,but he has sought out many imaginations.....
Pastor:
(snip)But why is God unloving simply because he does not save all? As B. B. Warfield has illustrated,[15] we might be rightfully angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't, but we would not necessarily be angry with a judge who refused to show mercy. Indeed, we recognize that no criminal has the right to expect mercy and for us to demand mercy for them is overthrow the very idea of justice.(snip)
Ronny to Raider:
This has got me to just thinking here,about when I was born of God and God showed me mercy. :-) And I didn't even know I needed such,for I was a local church member,who truly believed,that I was already a Christian. Yet I wasn't. No,I was a lost sinner and God showed mercy to me. God poured out His love,grace and mercy upon me. :-) God let me know that I was lost. God compelled me to go to a man, who simply read some scripture to me. And as he did,I knew that God was there and God that was holy. And in contrast to that,God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me compare the two and that was the goodness of God,that led me to repentance. :-) And when I repented/agreed with what God showed me about myself,the love of God began to pour out upon me. :-) And God put a picture in my mind,of three crosses and I knew on that center cross,was Jesus Christ and that He was there for me, there taking my sins upon Himself. So God proved to me directly,just how greatly God did love me. :-) God showed and proved that too me,in how God saved me,in how I was born of God. And then I simply prayed and thanked God,for what He had just done for me. Then I went and told others,what God had just done for me and indeed,I could do no else. :-) And then the desire of my heart,was that every person have the same type of relationship with God,as I then had. God gave me that desire. :-) Then much later on,I was rereminded of the scripture that says,God shall give us the desires of our heart! :-)
So,before I was born of God,I was a criminal/sinner. Yet God had mercy on me. :-) And I didn't go out and search for God,for I didn't even know I needed to. I thought I was already a saved Christian. No, God came and searched me out and saved me. Which is how I know,that what God has done for me and for some,before all is said and done,God will do for all. :-) For it is by Gods love grace and mercy,that us criminals/sinners are saved/born of God and in that way,put back in a right relationship with God. It is all God's doing and that,because God/Jesus Christ is love! :-)
Quote from: articleBut why is God unloving simply because he does not save all? As B. B. Warfield has illustrated,[15] we might be rightfully angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't, but we would not necessarily be angry with a judge who refused to show mercy. Indeed, we recognize that no criminal has the right to expect mercy and for us to demand mercy for them is overthrow the very idea of justice.
I agree with the author of this article on one point: we should not base universal salvation on the notion that God is beholden to our own notions of fairness etc, that God should do what WE would do in his position. Nobody is to be saved because they have a "right" to it, or deserve it.
We might be angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't. Is that so? Because Jesus describes himself as a doctor:
Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."The author attempts to lay aside the comparison of the doctor (who has the ability but refuses to heal), but Christ himself upholds the metaphor between him and a doctor. It's pretty clear from the above scripture that Christ equates being a sinner with being sick, and himself with the ability to heal those who are sick in that manner.
He does say that he has not come to call the righteous, meaning those who have hard hearts will need to be humbled, of course. But the question is: does the Good Doctor have the ability to bring about such a condition of repentance and healing, or does he not?
Christ is either ABLE to heal even the most unrepentant, or he is UNABLE to heal them. Which is it?
If he says that Christ is UNABLE, he contradicts scripture which literally and clearly states that he is able:
what seems impossible with man is possible with God. (Luke 18:27). If he says that Christ is ABLE but chooses not to heal the sick, then by his own words, and his own stated logic, the author has a right to be angry with God.
The (theologian) Says we have to allow for God's love and for his wrath.
God is going to pour out his wrath and indeed has already poured out his wrath.
Jesus suffered the wrath of God for all of humanity.
Jesus and what happened to him is the justice of God.
For the law produces wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.
Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
Quote from: watchman1706 on January 29, 2015, 10:10:42 AM
By a pastor-theologian who won't even sign his own name, how intellectually courageous.
I think Michael R. Jones put his name in the website URL :-)
QuoteIt amazes me how many people who disagree with UR so vehemently spend sooo much time and effort in writing articles and tomes disagreeing with it. I would never invest my own time and thoughts in something I disagreed with so strongly. I would get on with my own life. I don't really care about what they think. I have already come to my position after much consideration, prayer, study and God's dealings. Why would people imagine I would change my position after reading their opinion. We each must walk our own road. I don't know why people even feel the need to post other peoples anti-UR opinions. They don't mean anything and have no power over the truth we already believe.
I could argue the contrary. It's a duty to spread the info. Many people in both OT and NT teach about God and often at the same time rebuking false doctrine.
Teaching and rebuking is virtually the same. If Gary defends/teaches UR he attacks everything not UR.
QuoteI don't really care about what they think. I have already come to my position after much consideration, prayer, study and God's dealings. Why would people imagine I would change my position after reading their opinion.
Did you really form your own opinion by Bible study only? Until that point you never read a commentary? You never listened to a sermon? You never discussed a verse with someone?
I think it's never good to assume 'you' found the right position. You simply do not have the right position unless you are God Himself. There are always good things that can be perfected, flaws that needs to be cut out and new things to be learned.
because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?"
Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless and with great joy,
...rather than the 'right' of man to be saved....to me it is all about God's right and Jesus right. God has rights to
His creation and man.....of which He testifies he did not create for simply nothing[vanity] but for His spirit
to inhabit. These 'rights' of redemption to work salvation by His own arm[Jesus the right hand of His throne
through the redemption cost done at the cross] and deliver man from evil bespeaks of His throne/Sovereignty.
they miss the boat[Ark of HIS COVENANT] when they presume that the salvation of man has to do with the will
of man/sovereignty of man....and it is all about God and His Glory..the salvation of man IS THE GLORY OF GOD.
Yes. It's not of him who willeth or runneth but God who shows mercy. He does it not because the convict insists on mercy, but simply because he is God, and God is love, and love holds no record of being wronged.
:thumbsup: Seth...God also has a 'right' to forgive...and extend mercy unto mankind. man died without mercy under the law
covenant..due to sin...and thus all men died. His decision to show mercy and restore....was prophesied to by Him
with the promised seed of the woman..Jesus Christ..thus all men shall live. a 'better' covenant..
yet even through all the OT times under the law..He did exercise mercy in His judgements as He willed. Prophesying
through His prophets and testifying of this promised seed/Christ/Messiah..that would save His people from their sins
under the law covenant.
The statement, "Universalism prefers to emphasize God's love at the expense of God's wrath", misses the point. The scripture clearly says that mercy triumphs over judgment.
James 2:13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
God's wrath is God's wrath. He releases His wrath at the time appropriate to each individual situation. Some receive many stripes- some few stripes- according to their need.
The message of universal reconciliation is that judgment is remedial, and that God's purpose in everything He does is restoration.
As the Psalmist says, Psalm 85:10 Lovingkindness and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
If wrath is a reflection of God's distaste for unrighteousness, mercy is the reflection of His ultimate cure for it.
Quote from: dajomaco on January 29, 2015, 09:53:16 PM
The (theologian) Says we have to allow for God's love and for his wrath.
God is going to pour out his wrath and indeed has already poured out his wrath.
Jesus suffered the wrath of God for all of humanity.
dajomaco, I can't tell if you are saying Jesus suffered the wrath of God or the 'theologian' is saying it.
The way I see it, it was the love of God that put Jesus on the cross, not his wrath. There is a song sung by the Newsboys with the line 'when on that cross as Jesus died the wrath of God was satisfied'. I don't sing that anymore. Isn't God's wrath for turning us from our way onto the right path? The idea that he took His wrath out on Jesus means he is so mad he had to do something and since He loves us He made Jesus suffer in stead. Makes no sense.
...the angels that heralded His birth..did not speak of God's wrath...but peace and goodwill towards all men. Israel had
been overcome..and was occupied by Rome....allowed as discipline from straying from God's way's[lost sheep of the house
of Israel]...other men take your fields etc..covenant curses under law for disobedience.
Sacrifice and offerings you did not desire..but in mercy I delighted. God sent Jesus for the people to LISTEN TO HIM as
the good shepherd..to recover the special relationship they had with God.To turn their hearts back unto the father's
this is spoken of by Jesus in the parable of the vineyard and it's tenants..
He died for the people's 'sin' in that the jewish leaders and elder's..priests etc refused to 'hear ye him!" having been
so overcome of satan as to be offspring of vipers[corrupted image] to such an extent that they plotted to put Him to death.
did not love and did not Know God... never-the-less He willingly laid down His life..in order to take it up again....and
even on the cross in torment...interceded with God for us...requesting forgiveness....as they know not what they do..
God the Father..gathered in through His son...all that put faith in Christ at that time...then extended His grace unto
the gentile. Because they said they had no sins...and rejected His son..of whom God worked forgiveness of sins and
the taking away of them...Jesus told them they would die in their sin[full state] Paul received the revelation that all Israel
would be saved...and the receiving of them back in would be 'life from the dead" for they were spiritually dead to God..and
would die in that state..but be recovered at the resurrection of the dead.
Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit are olive branches offered of God unto man..that man may have eternal life[spirit]
elder sons[church leaders] refused to go in..yet the sinners of the people[harlots/tax-collectors..even those 'dogs' the gentiles
accepted and entered in before them. They lost their national identity as God's special covenant people [see parable of
vineyard] and the vineyard was given over to those who would give all the fruit[Christ take away all sin] .
Jesus instructed His disciples.....your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisee's and Sadducee's.
If we sin against His olive branches[peace offering of God to us] we will die in our sins..if we 'hear ye Him-the word
of God come in flesh..and hear what the Holy spirit speaks...we have life more abundantly now...and eternal life in the
age to come.
Quote from: bushy on January 30, 2015, 09:23:54 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on January 29, 2015, 09:53:16 PM
The (theologian) Says we have to allow for God's love and for his wrath.
God is going to pour out his wrath and indeed has already poured out his wrath.
Jesus suffered the wrath of God for all of humanity.
dajomaco, I can't tell if you are saying Jesus suffered the wrath of God or the 'theologian' is saying it.
The way I see it, it was the love of God that put Jesus on the cross, not his wrath. There is a song sung by the Newsboys with the line 'when on that cross as Jesus died the wrath of God was satisfied'. I don't sing that anymore. Isn't God's wrath for turning us from our way onto the right path? The idea that he took His wrath out on Jesus means he is so mad he had to do something and since He loves us He made Jesus suffer in stead. Makes no sense.
I agree. I used to see the atonement as a matter of God "pouring out his wrath" upon Christ, but I don't see it that way now. No doubt that Christ received an outpouring of the
wrath of man upon him as ordained of God on behalf of the world for our sin, but the Bible says that God himself was in Christ doing so. Both Father and Son were together on the cross reconciling the world for the purpose of love.
...having rejected peace with God through His 'olive branches" that He gave to the people......they remained in their
unregenerated state of wickedness.[enmity with God].and at the mercy of the demons/satan that had led them into
captivity...and persecuted those who did accept Christ...having been turned over unto satan for the destruction of their flesh....
the jewish nation is hard pressed to prove their lineage through the flesh,now days. DNA tests of their flesh
have been disappointing. from now on know ye no man after the flesh...spiritual DivineNatureActivated through
God's Ad[d]oil will reveal the son's of God.
flesh and blood can not please Him..not even jewish flesh and blood...but the regeneration of the spirit in man,walking
in the spirit[sons of the oil] can.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 30, 2015, 10:34:05 AM
The statement, "Universalism prefers to emphasize God's love at the expense of God's wrath", misses the point. The scripture clearly says that mercy triumphs over judgment.
James 2:13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
God's wrath is God's wrath. He releases His wrath at the time appropriate to each individual situation. Some receive many stripes- some few stripes- according to their need.
The message of universal reconciliation is that judgment is remedial, and that God's purpose in everything He does is restoration.
As the Psalmist says, Psalm 85:10 Lovingkindness and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
If wrath is a reflection of God's distaste for unrighteousness, mercy is the reflection of His ultimate cure for it.
:thumbsup:
--------
I'm open and willing to look at this wrath issue some more, and intend to Lord willing. But I don't believe that whether we understand it or if it sets well with us or not is the bottom line/litmus test re: God's wrath. I'm open to "what is the best definition of wrath", i.e., does it mean God was "mad", or something else.. but what does the scripture actually say (I honestly haven't gone to check prior to posting this)? Does it say "God poured out man's wrath upon Jesus", or "God poured out HIS wrath?"... I believe it says the latter...
Which scripture are you referencing about God pouring out his wrath?
you're right, it may be more of a summary/definition of ideas from multiple scriptures and views, rather than just one specific single scripture. I see a lot scriptures about God's wrath, mainly towards sin, but also directed at those doing the sins. As far as salvation and wrath, there's this; Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! (Rom 5:9)
So another thought might be, that God took His displeasure, wrath (even anger?), and the requirement for justice and perfect judgment, and placed that on Jesus. Not that He was "mad" at Jesus, but again, that Jesus was the Sacrificial Lamb, Who became our sin. And in that sense it was God's wrath placed on Jesus, just not [personally] against Him...
thinking...
Since the correlation of Jesus and lambs are so strong, I often wonder whether or not requiring an animal sacrifice was a way for God to satisfy his own justice, or simply remind them of their sin and provide a type and shadow of he manner by which Christ would provide deliverance from sin. Not every violation of the Law was punishable by physical death. Sometimes a lamb was simply sent out into the wilderness presumably to live a long happy life. To me it seems that the lambs are less a way for God to provide himself an outlet for justice, but a way to demonstrate the love of his son to come in the future. First, by binding Israelites to the memory of their sin through the sacrifices, then delivering on the promise of a final sacrifice (in Christ) to heal them from sin by the risen Spirit.
Either way I think of course we both agree that Jesus paid a heavy price to bring salvation to sinners like us, one for which he grieved in the garden of Gethsemene. :HeartThrob:
I believe the wrath of God is the absence of God.
When man believes his sin has separated him from God,
he experiences the absence of God .
In the mind of man is where this separation takes place.
The full wrath of God is eternal separation.
This is where God has mercy.
We know sin separates.
I believe Jesus experienced or believed in his humanity,
that God would separate himself from the sin that Jesus bore for humanity.
The sin of unbelief.
My God my God why have you forsaken me.
God has forsaken no one.
Some people take Christ's quotation of Psalm 22 as evidence that God had foresaken him. I don't interpret it that way. I think Jesus was referencing a scripture that many people standing there would have recognized as a call for deliverance from David, one that Jesus was fulfilling in that hour, from the true enemy. For God was in Christ reconciling the world. Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He was not himself condemned by his father, but they both were doing the condemning of sin itself. Just the way I see it.
Quote from: Seth on January 31, 2015, 03:07:56 AM
we both agree that Jesus paid a heavy price to bring salvation to sinners like us, one for which he grieved in the garden of Gethsemene.
For God was in Christ reconciling the world. Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He was not himself condemned by his father, but they both were doing the condemning of sin itself.
yes, amen.
This is one I had in the back of my mind earlier and then kind of got confused about an exact verse of "pouring out wrath on Jesus"...and just remembered this; Is. 53:10 The Lord was pleased to bruise him; He has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin
Hard to understand. But somehow, I believe it satisfied God's justice, or met the requirements to bring a cure? Although I don't really grasp all the reasons, He chose it, and by doing so, reconciled Himself to us.
Yeah, I could see that God's wrath upon sin came down upon Christ in the form of a sin offering. It definitely wouldn't have happened except that God required it, that's for sure.
I have always thought of the wrath of God as natural consequences and results.. as natural law very much consciously established by God.. much like, the wages of sin (result of imperfection) is the opposite of life/God(perfection).. primary lesson of life/living, to wander from God brings calamity, collapse, into smoke and ashes, which smoke/memory will rise up forever and ever.. calamity/collapse/wrath when it occurs unveils truth..
Quote from: marie glen on January 31, 2015, 06:52:30 AM
I have always thought of the wrath of God as natural consequences and results.. as natural law very much consciously established by God.. much like, the wages of sin (result of imperfection) is the opposite of life/God(perfection).. primary lesson of life/living, to wander from God brings calamity, collapse, into smoke and ashes, which smoke/memory will rise up forever and ever.. calamity/collapse/wrath when it occurs unveils truth..
I really like that explanation. In fact I think Romans 1 and 2 read in their entirety, top to bottom, really show the wrath of God as the natural consequences of sin.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 29, 2015, 10:01:46 PM
Quote from: watchman1706 on January 29, 2015, 10:10:42 AM
By a pastor-theologian who won't even sign his own name, how intellectually courageous.
I think Michael R. Jones put his name in the website URL :-)
QuoteIt amazes me how many people who disagree with UR so vehemently spend sooo much time and effort in writing articles and tomes disagreeing with it. I would never invest my own time and thoughts in something I disagreed with so strongly. I would get on with my own life. I don't really care about what they think. I have already come to my position after much consideration, prayer, study and God's dealings. Why would people imagine I would change my position after reading their opinion. We each must walk our own road. I don't know why people even feel the need to post other peoples anti-UR opinions. They don't mean anything and have no power over the truth we already believe.
I could argue the contrary. It's a duty to spread the info. Many people in both OT and NT teach about God and often at the same time rebuking false doctrine.
Teaching and rebuking is virtually the same. If Gary defends/teaches UR he attacks everything not UR.
QuoteI don't really care about what they think. I have already come to my position after much consideration, prayer, study and God's dealings. Why would people imagine I would change my position after reading their opinion.
Did you really form your own opinion by Bible study only? Until that point you never read a commentary? You never listened to a sermon? You never discussed a verse with someone?
I think it's never good to assume 'you' found the right position. You simply do not have the right position unless you are God Himself. There are always good things that can be perfected, flaws that needs to be cut out and new things to be learned.
So your take on this whitewings was to admonish me.....feel better now?
Wrath(death) is real, but it is temporal, it eventually gets swallowed up my mercy until all is life.
Quote from: watchman1706 on January 31, 2015, 07:42:15 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 29, 2015, 10:01:46 PM
Quote from: watchman1706 on January 29, 2015, 10:10:42 AM
By a pastor-theologian who won't even sign his own name, how intellectually courageous.
I think Michael R. Jones put his name in the website URL :-)
QuoteIt amazes me how many people who disagree with UR so vehemently spend sooo much time and effort in writing articles and tomes disagreeing with it. I would never invest my own time and thoughts in something I disagreed with so strongly. I would get on with my own life. I don't really care about what they think. I have already come to my position after much consideration, prayer, study and God's dealings. Why would people imagine I would change my position after reading their opinion. We each must walk our own road. I don't know why people even feel the need to post other peoples anti-UR opinions. They don't mean anything and have no power over the truth we already believe.
I could argue the contrary. It's a duty to spread the info. Many people in both OT and NT teach about God and often at the same time rebuking false doctrine.
Teaching and rebuking is virtually the same. If Gary defends/teaches UR he attacks everything not UR.
QuoteI don't really care about what they think. I have already come to my position after much consideration, prayer, study and God's dealings. Why would people imagine I would change my position after reading their opinion.
Did you really form your own opinion by Bible study only? Until that point you never read a commentary? You never listened to a sermon? You never discussed a verse with someone?
I think it's never good to assume 'you' found the right position. You simply do not have the right position unless you are God Himself. There are always good things that can be perfected, flaws that needs to be cut out and new things to be learned.
So your take on this whitewings was to admonish me.....feel better now?
Depends. Did you learn from it? :laugh:
QuoteUniversalism prefers to emphasize God's love at the expense of God's wrath. This view does injustice to the wrath of God since God's wrath is seen as part of God's glory.
Likewise does wrath do injustice to God's love because God's love is seen part of God's glory.
QuoteFor example, when God reveals himself to Moses in Exodus 34 he reveals not only his compassion and his covenant faithfulness, but also his judging of the sin of the people. To minimize God's wrath one must also minimize God's compassion, his covenant faithfulness, and his forgiveness, all of which are also seen in this divine revelation.
Again an empty argument. Minimizing God's love also minimizes God's compassion and forgiveness. Love is the ultimate compassion.
QuoteTo say that God must practice the same forgiveness he enjoins upon us overlooks two key notions: (1) God does forgive those who come to faith in Christ, and (2) it holds God to an impossible standard in that it expects God to sacrifice one aspect of his character at the expense of another. To say that God's love and grace will supersede his judgment and wrath is to establish priorities in the attributes of God that Scripture does not support.
Grace/love is a gift not something that is to be earned. Again the author doesn't look at the other side of the same coin. If showing love is called sacrificing the justice/wrath aspect of His character then wrath/justice is sacrificing the love/justice part of His character.
QuoteTo say that God's love and grace will supersede his judgment and wrath is to establish priorities in the attributes of God that Scripture does not support.
Does Scripture support that God's wrath supersedes His love?
Scripture does state: 1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for
God is love.
That is the very essence of God. Yes He also gets angry, takes vengeance, etc. All very Scriptual but still He IS love but nowhere it states He IS hate/anger/wrath etc. That at least edges toward that His loving attributes take priority over His hating attributes.
QuoteIt is true that 1 John 4:8 and 16 use a predicate nominative subset construction to state that God is love. Note, however that Hebrews 12:29 uses the same construction, in the context of a discussion of God's judgment against not just humanity but the entire created order (quoting the prophet Haggai) do emphasize that "God is a consuming fire." This means that if God is "love" as part of his essential nature, then God must also be a God of wrath and judgment, too, as part of his essential nature.
What exactly is fire? It's purpose? It's duration? What does the fire consume?
QuoteGod's moral attributes are tempered by his non-moral attributes. That is, God's love must be an infinite love. Likewise, his justice or his wrath, or his truth, must also be infinite.
Infinite love and infinite wrath can't co-exist. That's just like saying a it's always hot and cold in the same room.
God's love isn't infinite but is ends once in a while when His wrath starts. His wrath isn't infinite because it ends when His love starts again.
That causes a few problems. When God pours out His wrath, "God is love" is not true. And when He loves "He is a consuming fire" is false statement.
The Bible can't/doesn't contradict because that's like a divided kingdom.
I hate this; yesterday I've read the perfect verse in Psalms that will support my view. Obviously I can't find it anymore. It clearly states God truly hates sin and will crush it with all His might. He will not spare the sinner when doing so. But the second part of the Psalm states He does so for the benefit of the sinner who He loves.
And that is the very core of God's doings which are based on the core of His personality. The purpose of His wrath, punishment, etc have one single motive; place the sinner back on the narrow road so He can unleash His love attribute again.
QuoteThe Westminster Shorter Catechism (WSC) expresses this correctly: "Q. 4: What is God? A: God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth." Each of these eight attributes is governed by the three states of infinity, eternality, and immutability. With regard to this issue, both God's holiness and his justice are infinite and eternal, not just his love. To give one priority over the other is to do injustice to the character of God as he is revealed in Scripture. To alter these priorities to suit our own fallible notions of morality is to fashion a god simply to suit our own likings.
Irrelevant words because everyone agrees with that. It's the very meaning of the words (goodness, justice) that are debated here. I dare to say that's in essence the only difference between ET and UR.
QuoteIf one can say that we must subordinate divine justice to divine love why can we not do the opposite and subordinate divine love to divine justice
Anyone can say anything. That's the reason of all false doctrines. That's why Scriptural proof instead of doctrinal 'proof' must be used.
QuoteWhile this is what the universalist accuses the traditionalist of doing,
Another false claim. Universalists
are the traditionalists. The author's tradition is the repackaged tradition of Pilate.
Quotetheir accusation falls short of the mark. The traditionalist recognizes that both God's love and God's judgments are attributes of God.
I can't speak for all but I have yet to find a Universalist that's doesn't believe God can be angry.
QuoteSince God is simple (in the philosophical sense) he must possess both of these attributes as part of his essential nature. To subordinate one to the other in either direction is to throw God's nature out of balance and thus make God less than the God he has revealed himself to be.
Not subordinating means God has a split personality. He's divided and like all divided kingdoms He will fall. That doesn't sound very Scriptural does it?
Again I notice the author uses 'a clever statement' against UR while it absolutely proves nothing because it can be used against his doctrine as well.
QuoteThe fact is, many of the arguments inherent in universalism revolve around the human notion of fairness which not only compels God to act solely in accordance with human understanding,
It compels to Scriptural understanding. ET is mainly based on pagan/demonic teachings predating Christ by millennia and injected by the first pope (Constantine)
Quoteit also overlooks the all-knowing justice of God by which he can judge each person in absolute righteousness since he knows all things including the human heart (John 2:24-25; Heb. 4:13). It also ascribes to God an attribute absent in scripture. While the Scriptures repeatedly describe God as "just," "righteous," and "holy," nowhere do they describe God as "fair," as we understand fairness. So the EU, since he cannot see divine retribution as anything but unfair, applies human categories of fairness and then accuses God of injustice for his "righteous judgments."
Again empty words. Nobody argues God's justice is not fair. The argument is about what God's justice looks like. Its purpose. It's goal. It's outcome.
QuoteBut why is God unloving simply because he does not save all? As B. B. Warfield has illustrated,[15] we might be rightfully angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't, but we would not necessarily be angry with a judge who refused to show mercy. Indeed, we recognize that no criminal has the right to expect mercy and for us to demand mercy for them is overthrow the very idea of justice.
I would advise Warfield to read a Bible once in a while.
Everybody is criminal (sinner) that has no right to expect mercy. That's one of the main reasons Jesus was on earth 2000 years ago. Jesus the Healer.
QuoteThough God has presented himself in healing terms (Isa. 53:5; Mal. 4:2), he does not present himself as such when it comes to salvation and condemnation. Instead, he represents himself as a judge (e.g., Gen. 18:25) and Jesus claims the same authority of judgment for blessing or condemnation for himself under the Father's authority (John 5:26-29).
And the only rulings the Supreme judge knows is eternal heaven or eternal hell? Nothing in between. God judged (parts of) Israel quite a few times. But never for eternity.
That's another main flaw of ETs. Judgement is always negative, destructive and eternal hell.
Because the author referenced to "Catechism" my guess is he is a Catholic. If so he must believe in purgatory. That means his article is to black and white because his church doctrine has a shade of grey
QuoteJohn 5:26-29: "For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."
The implication in this passage is that the judgment is final and there is no change in destiny.
The implication/fact is that there is/will be condemnation. And that is all the verses state. Nothing about type or duration.
To summarize: Most of the arguments of the author are correct, but he fails to see most of his arguments can very easily turned against any other doctrine.
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2015, 03:40:02 AM
Quote from: Seth on January 31, 2015, 03:07:56 AM
we both agree that Jesus paid a heavy price to bring salvation to sinners like us, one for which he grieved in the garden of Gethsemene.
For God was in Christ reconciling the world. Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He was not himself condemned by his father, but they both were doing the condemning of sin itself.
yes, amen.
This is one I had in the back of my mind earlier and then kind of got confused about an exact verse of "pouring out wrath on Jesus"...and just remembered this; Is. 53:10 The Lord was pleased to bruise him; He has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin
Hard to understand. But somehow, I believe it satisfied God's justice, or met the requirements to bring a cure? Although I don't really grasp all the reasons, He chose it, and by doing so, reconciled Himself to us.
I'm sorry but I cannot see "God's wrath" in Isa. 53. God's wrath as I see God's wrath is indignation, fury, anger, heat upon the unbelieving.
I cannot see "God's wrath" on believers, I can see tribulation, persecution, trials, grief, but not God's wrath. Just my opinion. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
I see Isaiah 53 as God using the wrath of man upon Christ to reveal his love for the world in that while we were sinners Christ died for us, that he gave his only begotten son. I don't believe God gave his son to save us from God, but from sin. I believe God always retained the right and authority to forgive sins at any time, authority he gave to Christ in his ministry. I think he hard coded blood sacrifice into the Law as a way to make it necessary for a blood sacrifice to end the Old Covenant thus revealing the nature of love through the sacrifice of Christ.
Jesus went to the cross in obedience to the Father.
I do not believe God had forsaken Jesus .
Jesus had an experience of Victory over death.
Jesus died believing God had forsaken him.
Jesus experienced resurrection from the dead.
God had never forsake ned Jesus .
Jesus is proof that God will not forsaken any one in death.
IMo
I don't think Jesus died thinking a false thing about God. I think he was quoting scripture to reveal that God was answering David's call for deliverance and fulfilling the prophets.
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Elí, Elí, lemá sabachtháni?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
And at three Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lemá sabachtháni?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
[ Psalm 22 ] [ From Suffering to Praise ] [ For the choir director: according to "The Deer of the Dawn." A Davidic psalm. ] My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Why are You so far from my deliverance and from my words of groaning
Yes, it was a quotation of scripture.
Isaaih 57;17 I will not accuse forever,nor will I always be angry. For then the spirit of man would grow faint
before me-the breath[spirit] of man that I have created.. I WAS WROTH BY HIS COVETOUSNESS[do not eat of the tokogae]
I punished him[Adam] and hid my fACE IN ANGER..YET HE KEPT ON HIS WILLFUL WAYS.
I HAVE SEEN HIS WAYS..BUT I WILL HEAL HIM.
Quote from: Seth on January 31, 2015, 09:38:54 PM
I don't think Jesus died thinking a false thing about God.
Jesus knew that sin separates and is the cause of death.
Mercy triumphs over death.
To triumph over death you must have a death.
Jesus was obedient even unto death.
I think he was quoting scripture to reveal that God was answering David's call for deliverance and fulfilling the prophets.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 31, 2015, 11:04:27 AM
Wrath(death) is real, but it is temporal, it eventually gets swallowed up my mercy until all is life.
:iagree:
Quote from: dajomaco on January 31, 2015, 10:05:20 PM
Quote from: Seth on January 31, 2015, 09:38:54 PM
I don't think Jesus died thinking a false thing about God.
Jesus knew that sin separates and is the cause of death.
Mercy triumphs over death.
To triumph over death you must have a death.
Jesus was obedient even unto death.
I think he was quoting scripture to reveal that God was answering David's call for deliverance and fulfilling the prophets.
Jesus did die, but not believing lies. In Romans 6 we see that of Christ's physical death was a LIKENESS to our death to sin. Jesus died and was resurrected to save US from believing lies, not himself. That's what makes his crucifixion selfless.
Christ was the
spotless lamb not a believer of untruths about his father. The two were one on the cross.
Isaaih 25;7 on this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples,the sheet that covers all nations.
HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH FOREVER. The sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces;
He will remove the disgrace from his people from all the earth. THE LORD HAS SPOKEN
Revelation of Christ 21;3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne,saying...'NOW THE DWELLING OF GOD
IS WITH MEN,AND HE WILL LIVE WITH THEM.They will be His people,and God himself will be with them and be
their God. He will wipe evry tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain.
For the old order of things have passed away.
He who was seated on throne said 'I am making everything new[covenant..incorruptible image ] Then He said
'write this down,for these words are trustworthy and true".
John 11;25,26 Jesus said to her,'I am the resurrection and life. He who believes in me will live,even though he dies.
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die"
Quote from: Seth on January 31, 2015, 10:28:18 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on January 31, 2015, 10:05:20 PM
Quote from: Seth on January 31, 2015, 09:38:54 PM
I don't think Jesus died thinking a false thing about God.
Jesus knew that sin separates and is the cause of death.
Mercy triumphs over death.
To triumph over death you must have a death.
Jesus was obedient even unto death.
I think he was quoting scripture to reveal that God was answering David's call for deliverance and fulfilling the prophets.
Jesus did die, but not believing lies. In Romans 6 we see that of Christ's physical death was a LIKENESS to our death to sin. Jesus died and was resurrected to save US from believing lies, not himself. That's what makes his crucifixion selfless.
Christ was the spotless lamb not a believer of untruths about his father. The two were one on the cross.
I believe Jesus was being truthful when he said "Elí, Elí, lemá sabachtháni?
He was not saying it for effect.
How could Jesus die( Mystery?)one.
He was quoting a scripture that's just a fact. What it means is up to interpretation.
Psalm 22
Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garments
I believe David was quoting Jesus.
I think Jesus was laying claim to the sure mercies of David[a son to sit on the throne forever] when Jesus bore all our sins...
because he that loves much is forgiven[mercy] much. where David made intercession with God..because of his sin's
being visited on the people.. bought a threshing floor and offered up sacrifices..to stop the death plague;Jesus made
intercession for the people's sins [Father,forgive them they know not what they do]being visited on Him....and offered up
sacrifices. David insisting on paying the cost of the threshing floor sacrifices/Christ paying the cost
Quote from: dajomaco on February 01, 2015, 12:47:44 AM
Psalm 22
Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garments
I believe David was quoting Jesus.
Since God was in Christ on the cross and because the Truth has no fellowship with lies (Christ not being able to believe falsehoods) I believe it's the reverse. Christ constantly quotes OT scriptures throughout his ministry. "It is written..."
And there are many things David said about his own sin in the Psalms that Christ wouldn't say, being that Christ was without sin.
I think when David spoke in Psalms 22 he was speaking in the spirit..and prophesying of Jesus..[scriptures testify of me]
the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
I think when Jesus said that ..my God,my God,why have you forsaken me....He was 'tasting death for every man"
Psalm 32
I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
Quote from: sheila on February 01, 2015, 01:30:50 AM
I think when Jesus said that ..my God,my God,why have you forsaken me....He was 'tasting death for every man"
I agree :iagree:
on the cross....there is a thief dying beside Jesus..who says.......we have done things worthy of death..but this man has
not...remember me Jesus when you come into your Kingdom. this,too,is scripture that testifies of Jesus Christ...His death,
His word to the man dying beside Him.
Yes, Jesus died. That's not a question. But I do not believe his quotation of Psalm 22 means that he was forsaken by his Father. There can be many reasons Jesus would quote a verse. God was in Christ reconciling the world, making peace, something David, in Psalm 22, longed for.
Messiah was 'cut off' Seth..Jesus lay down His life 'willingly' no 'man' took it from Him..He lay it down..in death..in order
to take it back up again. Father promised he would not let his holy one expierence decay..not death/cutting off...Father
give Him authority to take it back up again.
He spoke of His coming departure as " Returning unto My Father and your Father".
forsake-renounce..law=give up a right...no man takes it from me. a will requires the death of the testator
Hebrews 9;16-27 cut off...to cut a covenant......
Jesus tasted death for every man
Shiela, you see that I have agreed with the fact that Jesus died, right?
yes,Seth.... :girlheart:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on January 29, 2015, 09:54:52 AM
QuoteWhy Christian Universalism is Wrong
By Pastor-Theologian
Posted on January 10, 2012
The Nature of God: Loving and Just
Universalism prefers to emphasize God's love at the expense of God's wrath. This view does injustice to the wrath of God since God's wrath is seen as part of God's glory. For example, when God reveals himself to Moses in Exodus 34 he reveals not only his compassion and his covenant faithfulness, but also his judging of the sin of the people. To minimize God's wrath one must also minimize God's compassion, his covenant faithfulness, and his forgiveness, all of which are also seen in this divine revelation.
To say that God must practice the same forgiveness he enjoins upon us overlooks two key notions: (1) God does forgive those who come to faith in Christ, and (2) it holds God to an impossible standard in that it expects God to sacrifice one aspect of his character at the expense of another. To say that God's love and grace will supersede his judgment and wrath is to establish priorities in the attributes of God that Scripture does not support.
It is true that 1 John 4:8 and 16 use a predicate nominative subset construction to state that God is love. Note, however that Hebrews 12:29 uses the same construction, in the context of a discussion of God's judgment against not just humanity but the entire created order (quoting the prophet Haggai) do emphasize that "God is a consuming fire." This means that if God is "love" as part of his essential nature, then God must also be a God of wrath and judgment, too, as part of his essential nature.
God's moral attributes are tempered by his non-moral attributes. That is, God's love must be an infinite love. Likewise, his justice or his wrath, or his truth, must also be infinite. The Westminster Shorter Catechism (WSC) expresses this correctly: "Q. 4: What is God? A: God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth." Each of these eight attributes is governed by the three states of infinity, eternality, and immutability. With regard to this issue, both God's holiness and his justice are infinite and eternal, not just his love. To give one priority over the other is to do injustice to the character of God as he is revealed in Scripture. To alter these priorities to suit our own fallible notions of morality is to fashion a god simply to suit our own likings.
If one can say that we must subordinate divine justice to divine love why can we not do the opposite and subordinate divine love to divine justice? While this is what the universalist accuses the traditionalist of doing, their accusation falls short of the mark. The traditionalist recognizes that both God's love and God's judgments are attributes of God. Since God is simple (in the philosophical sense) he must possess both of these attributes as part of his essential nature. To subordinate one to the other in either direction is to throw God's nature out of balance and thus make God less than the God he has revealed himself to be.
The fact is, many of the arguments inherent in universalism revolve around the human notion of fairness which not only compels God to act solely in accordance with human understanding, it also overlooks the all-knowing justice of God by which he can judge each person in absolute righteousness since he knows all things including the human heart (John 2:24-25; Heb. 4:13). It also ascribes to God an attribute absent in scripture. While the Scriptures repeatedly describe God as "just," "righteous," and "holy," nowhere do they describe God as "fair," as we understand fairness. So the EU, since he cannot see divine retribution as anything but unfair, applies human categories of fairness and then accuses God of injustice for his "righteous judgments."
But why is God unloving simply because he does not save all? As B. B. Warfield has illustrated,[15] we might be rightfully angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't, but we would not necessarily be angry with a judge who refused to show mercy. Indeed, we recognize that no criminal has the right to expect mercy and for us to demand mercy for them is overthrow the very idea of justice.
Though God has presented himself in healing terms (Isa. 53:5; Mal. 4:2), he does not present himself as such when it comes to salvation and condemnation. Instead, he represents himself as a judge (e.g., Gen. 18:25) and Jesus claims the same authority of judgment for blessing or condemnation for himself under the Father's authority (John 5:26-29).
John 5:26-29: "For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."
The implication in this passage is that the judgment is final and there is no change in destiny.
..
https://michaelrjones.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/why-christian-universalism-is-wrong/
:dontknow: Answers, please :Chinscratch:
"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
The first post by RaiderGonzo which informed us about an article by pastor-theologian on "Why Crisitian Universalism is Wrong" and which focused a lot on the word WRATH. God's wrath, man's wrath, etc.
This thread has included many thoughts and opinions and digressions. that's okay. But I would like to focus on one aspect, and that has to do with the meaning of the word WRATH as used in scripture.
But first:
Whitewings reply #6, #30 comments were oh so spot on. Thanks for that. It reflects my thinking as well. This man does not understand love, he does not understand wrath ( more on that later), does not understand justice, does not understand purpose of fire, does not understand what hell is, etc, etc. He reflects very many stereo-typed orthodox teachings which are incorrect.
From his web site I see this:
He, Michael R. Jones , says: I've been in ministry for fourteen years and I've been a senior/solo pastor for twelve of those years. I love it and I'm thankful everyday that I get to do this. For me it's not a job and it's not a living; it's who I am.
In college and seminary I did well and won some awards (one in Greek and one in systematic theology). I helped teach some classes (in theology) and write some books (a dictionary and a commentary on Chronicles). I was also in the student government (treasurer and president). This year I published several articles for the Lexham Bible Dictionary and the Lexham Theological Wordbook, both published by Logos Bible Software.
My theologian is Athanasius. My philosopher is Kierkegaard
Well hooray. Your so great sir!
I want to focus on the word WRATH (Strong's G3709) and G2372.
Spiros Zodhaites in his Complete Word Studies of the New Testament clearly shows a difference between these two words which are translated most often as wrath or anger.
He says:
ὀργή - orge, gen. orges fem. noun from orego (3713), covet after, desire. Wrath, anger as a state of mind. Contrast θυμός - thumos (2372),, indignation, wrath as the outburst ot a vengeful mind.Aristole says that orge, anger is desire with grief (compare: Mark 3:5, Rom 12:19 and especially
Eph 4:31 Let allG3956 bitterness,G4088 andG2532 wrath,G2372 andG2532 anger,G3709 andG2532 clamour,G2906 andG2532 evil speaking,G988 be put awayG142 fromG575 you,G5216 withG4862 allG3956 malice:G2549
Col 3:8 ButG1161 nowG3570 yeG5210 alsoG2532 put offG659 all these;G3956 anger,G3709 wrath,G2372 malice,G2549 blasphemy,G988 filthy communicationG148 out ofG1537 yourG5216 mouth.G4750
Clearly mans's wrath is vengeful and full of hate. God's wrath is corrective leading to a good end (love).
Quote from: joeteekay on February 01, 2015, 07:41:35 PM
The first post by RaiderGonzo which informed us about an article by pastor-theologian on "Why Crisitian Universalism is Wrong" and which focused a lot on the word WRATH. God's wrath, man's wrath, etc.
This thread has included many thoughts and opinions and digressions. that's okay. But I would like to focus on one aspect, and that has to do with the meaning of the word WRATH as used in scripture.
But first:
Whitewings reply #6, #30 comments were oh so spot on. Thanks for that. It reflects my thinking as well. This man does not understand love, he does not understand wrath ( more on that later), does not understand justice, does not understand purpose of fire, does not understand what hell is, etc, etc. He reflects very many stereo-typed orthodox teachings which are incorrect.
From his web site I see this:
He, Michael R. Jones , says: I've been in ministry for fourteen years and I've been a senior/solo pastor for twelve of those years. I love it and I'm thankful everyday that I get to do this. For me it's not a job and it's not a living; it's who I am.
In college and seminary I did well and won some awards (one in Greek and one in systematic theology). I helped teach some classes (in theology) and write some books (a dictionary and a commentary on Chronicles). I was also in the student government (treasurer and president). This year I published several articles for the Lexham Bible Dictionary and the Lexham Theological Wordbook, both published by Logos Bible Software.
My theologian is Athanasius. My philosopher is Kierkegaard
Well hooray. Your so great sir!
I want to focus on the word WRATH (Strong's G3709) and G2372.
Spiros Zodhaites in his Complete Word Studies of the New Testament clearly shows a difference between these two words which are translated most often as wrath or anger.
He says:
ὀργή - orge, gen. orges fem. noun from orego (3713), covet after, desire. Wrath, anger as a state of mind. Contrast θυμός - thumos (2372),, indignation, wrath as the outburst ot a vengeful mind.Aristole says that orge, anger is desire with grief (compare: Mark 3:5, Rom 12:19 and especially
Eph 4:31 Let allG3956 bitterness,G4088 andG2532 wrath,G2372 andG2532 anger,G3709 andG2532 clamour,G2906 andG2532 evil speaking,G988 be put awayG142 fromG575 you,G5216 withG4862 allG3956 malice:G2549
Col 3:8 ButG1161 nowG3570 yeG5210 alsoG2532 put offG659 all these;G3956 anger,G3709 wrath,G2372 malice,G2549 blasphemy,G988 filthy communicationG148 out ofG1537 yourG5216 mouth.G4750
Clearly mans's wrath is vengeful and full of hate. God's wrath is corrective leading to a good end (love).
Amen to that
when your eyes are good your whole body is also full of light. when your eyes are bad,your body also is full of darkness.
God had built in covenant curses[wrath] for taking pleasure in what displeases Him. Choose this day,who you will serve.
curses or blessing.
what they seem to forget is the wrath that man has been subjected to since Adam disobeyed in the garden...the sin and death
that entered into Adam...even corruption and death..sickness,murders greed,covetousness..bearing children doomed to
misfortune, children possessed of evil spirits..and all manner of evil has befallen man as the fruit of his disobedience.
Take a good look around,I say..and see all the evil fruitage that has befallen Adam for taking pleasure in what
displeases God. All our days are concluded in thy wrath.
God will not give His glory unto another[spirit of rebellion] and what is God's glory? eternal life,peace,joy,no sickness,
tears or mourning.. God in essence turned Adam's flesh over to satan for the destruction of the flesh..in order that Adam's
spirit be saved in the Day of the Lord. Generations and generations ,all in Adam have bore the corrupt image of the wrath of God
for the disobedience of one man. How then can they say..we ignore the wrath of God,when we speak of God's kindness
and grace offered to save us from this wrath[body undergoing this death]
God give man dominion of the earth..to rule over it in the image of God/through obiedience to Him....sin is a demon that
croucheth at the door,he desires to rule over you,but you must rule over him. Sin and death has ruled over man to his
ruin and destruction since Adam...and all men have died.
Praise be to God in heaven for His goodness to man,that even in our wicked[sin/dying]state..He gave us a savior..to
save us from God's wrath...even sin/disobedience/death........our own iniquity rebuked us..in that we were overcome
of evil.
The Cup of the Lord's Wrath Isaaih 51;17-23
Awake,Awake! O"Jerusalem,you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord the cup of His wrath,you who have drained to it's
dregs the golblet that makes men stagger[sin and death] Of all the sons she bore,there were none to guide her..of all
the sons she reared there were none to take her by the hand.[until the son of God come]
These double calamities have come upon you-who can comfort you? ruin and destruction,famine and sword-who can console
you? Your sons have fainted[all men died] they lie at the head of every street, like antelope caught in a net.
They are filled with the wrath of our Lord and the rebuke of our God.
THEREFORE HEAR THIS YOU AFFLICTED ONE,MADE DRUNK,BUT NOT WITH WINE. THIS IS WHAT YOUR SOVEREIGN LORD
SAYS,YOUR GOD WHO DEFENDS HIS PEOPLE. SEE,I HAVE TAKEN OUT OF YOUR HAND THE CUP THAT MADE YOU
STAGGER, FROM THAT CUP,THE GOBLET OF MY WRATH YOU WILL NEVER DRINK AGAIN. I WILL PUT IT IN THE HANDS
OF YOUR TORMENTORS, WHO SAID TO YOU,'FALL PROSTRATE THAT WE MAY WALK OVER YOU[SIN] AND YOU MADE
YOUR BACK LIKE THE GROUND.
iSAAIH 40 cOMFORT FOR GOD'S PEOPLE
Speak tenderly to God's people and proclaim to her that her hard service has been completed,that her sin has been
paid for,that she has received from the Lord's hand double for all her sins.
the wrath of God[displeasure for Adam choosing that which displeased Him] has been poured out resulting in death coming to
all in Adam. DO NOT EAT FROM THE TOKOGAE LEST YE DIE........
WHO WILL SAVE US FROM OUR SINS?DEATH?WRATH OF GOD? PRAISE BE TO GOD WHOSE OWN ARM WORKED
SALVATION....as all men have bore the image of the corrupt one...so,too,shall all bear the image of the incorrupt one.
God does not give His Glory to another...man in the corrupt image exhibits all the fruitage of the wicked one,strife/death
sickness/famine/destruction....when God's spirit/glory is in man..you will see the fruit of love,joy,peace,mercy,eternal life.
The Good man will bring forth Good,of the good that is stored up in his heart. Goodnews of Great joy unto men.
Romans 4
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
Galations 3 what then was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions,until the seed to whom
the promise referred had come.
v 21 is the law then opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law could have been given that could impart
life,then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.. BUT THE SCRIPTURES DECLARE THAT THE WHOLE
WORLD IS A PRISONER OF SIN,SO THAT WHAT WAS PROMISED,BEING GIVEN THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST
MIGHT BE GIVEN TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
Before this faith came,we were held prisoners by the law,locked up,until faith should be revealed. So,the law was
put in charge to lead us to Christ,that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come,we are no longer under
supervision of the law.
My opinion:
The wrath of God
Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
What the Law has to do with the Wrath of God
Romans 7
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
The sting of death is sin and the power of sin is the law - 1 Corinthians 15:56
Yes Seth I agree with what you said. My main point was that the wrath of man is different from the wrath of God.
I repeat:
ὀργή - Strong's G3709) orge, gen. orges fem. noun from orego (3713), covet after, desire. Wrath, anger as a state of mind. Contrast θυμός - thumos (2372),, indignation, wrath as the outburst of a vengeful mind. Aristole says that orge, anger is desire with grief (compare: Mark 3:5, Rom 12:19
And:
Mans" wrath is vengeful and full of hate. God's wrath is corrective leading to a good end (love).
And so I agree with your quoting Romans 1 in this context.
Quote from: Seth on February 02, 2015, 12:27:33 AM
My opinion:
The wrath of God
Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
What the Law has to do with the Wrath of God
Romans 7
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
The sting of death is sin and the power of sin is the law - 1 Corinthians 15:56
QuoteYes Seth I agree with what you said. My main point was that the wrath of man is different from the wrath of God.
Yes I agree, if I compare the wrath of God in Romans 1 to the Parable of the Prodigal Son, it seems to me that the son was likewise turned over to his own mind to defile himself, but the emotional disposition of the Father was hopeful, waiting for him to return. I agree it's not like man's wrath. As Apostle James said, "the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God." It's not that would minimize his wrath. But that it ought not be understood as being the same as man's wrath.
seth, dajomaco, jabcat, marie glen, white wings, eaglesway, sheila, joeteekay, very interesting responses :thumbsup:
wrath = the natural consequence of sin / acknowledgment of sin :Chinscratch:
goes somewhat with the lines written by Tony Lane
QuoteThe Wrath of God as an Aspect of the Love of God
.. because God's love itself implies his wrath. Without his wrath God is simply not loving in the sense that the Bible portrays his love.
There is a third and more subtle way in which the wrath of God is undermined. C. H. Dodd, in a brief but highly influential section of his Moffatt Romans commentary, offers a reinterpretation of the concept. Talk of God's anger is too anthropomorphic. "Paul never uses the verb, 'to be angry,' with God as subject." While the original meaning of "the wrath of God" was the passion of anger, by the time of Paul it had come to refer to an impersonal process of cause and effect, the inevitable result of sin. Thus, "anger as an attitude of God to men disappears, and His love and mercy become all- embracing. This is, as I believe, the purport of the teaching of Jesus, with its emphasis on limitless forgiveness." Essentially Paul agrees, but he retains the concept of the wrath of God, "which does not appear in the teaching of Jesus, unless we press certain features of the parables in an illegitimate manner." In Paul the wrath of God describes not "the attitude of God to man" but "an inevitable process of cause and effect in a moral universe." "In the long run we cannot think with full consistency of God in terms of the highest human ideals of personality and yet attribute to Him the irrational passion of anger."
Dodd's approach has stimulated considerable debate, and it would be hard to find a recent serious English-language discussion of the wrath of God that does not refer to him. A. T. Hanson, in his substantial monograph on the subject, The Wrath of the Lamb, follows broadly in Dodd's footsteps. Dodd and those who follow him are united in affirming that the wrath of God is to be understood purely as effectus, as the effects or consequences of sin, rather than affectus, as a prior emotion or feeling on God's part. God is not to be thought of as angry and loving, either at the same time or alternately. We should not speak of "God's displeasure," because displeasure suggests a personal feeling in God. "The wrath of God is wholly impersonal and does not describe an attitude of God but a condition of men." But there is some ambiguity in these writers about the extent of God's involvement in this effectus. At times the impression is given, as in Dodd's brief account, that this is purely an inevitable byproduct of sin, not in any way willed by God. R. P. C. Hanson, by contrast, is willing to talk robustly of God punishing, while denying that God's wrath is an affectus.
http://www.theologynetwork.org/christian-beliefs/doctrine-of-god/getting-stuck-in/the-wrath-of-god-as-an-aspect-of-the-love-of-god.htm
agree / disagree, any further thoughts and/or insight in regards to the wrath of God?
What Dodd says begins with a misleading premise. If it is true Paul never specifically refers to God as "angry"- Paul does speak of the wrath of God and there are many places in the scripture that refer to God as being angry. This isnt anthropomorphic unless we see it from a man-centered view. God's anger is different than man's.
The anger of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God. God's anger accomplishes His righteousness and passes like the night into the dawn of His mercy. The problem with making broad statements like, "God never really gets angry" in defense of UR is that they are false, and it makes the defense look false.
Anyone who has read the scriptures knows God gets angry at times. This does not mean he is an angry person, as a man or a woman may be. The issue is to define God's anger as opposed to man's.
God does not get bitter.
God is never vindictive.
God does not "let the sun go down on His anger".
God is angry without sin.
God always forgives, and indeed, has forgiven all in Christ.
But God does get angry. I found MANY references in the scripture to the anger of God. I will only quote one, from Hebrews 3;10.
Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
"Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me,
And saw My works for forty years.
"Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, 'They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways';
As I swore in My wrath,
'They shall not enter My rest.'"
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
In this quote, wrath and anger are synonymous. I would say they are synonymous throughout the scripture. The problem is, when a point of theology or philosophy transcends the plain language of the scriptures- it is only then accessible to theologians and philosophers. The average man or woman reads what is plainly written and has the integrity to wrestle with how the apparent contradictions are resolved honestly.
Theologians and philosophers create constructs that ignore or dismiss or minimize the direct words, and thereby escape the responsibility of reconciling the plain words with their lofty ideal. Their lofty ideal is actually correct in this case. "God does all from love." But they have taken an unacceptable short cut to get there. This is actually a basic foundation of exegesis, a fancy theological word for saying that the truths we apprehend must connect with the writings---- truths rendered in proper priority and context, explainable through the application of scripture, without denying other scripture.
In my opinion, nothing God does is "effectus." His name is, "I AM That I AM"
So, the proper response is to contextualize and explain the anger of God from the scriptures, for what it is, not deny it. God's anger is not effectus- it is emotion. God has the complete range of emotion, He created us in His image. But none of His emotions are tainted by, or distorted into, sins.
:Peace2:
I think you're right! (Eaglesway). When someone asks me about God's anger or has the attitude God is mean, which is an attitude that's around as we know, I like to bring up scenarios where a God worth His salt WOULD ABSOLUTELY be angry.. from the Bible of course, I think it's psalm 16 or 106? (36?) which says the last straw with God in Old Testament days was the placing of live babies in fire as a sacrifice to other 'gods' (Molech in the valley of Hinnom/Armegeddon)..
I can think of other scenarios where God may indeed feel much righteous anger.. the beheading of defenseless prisoners.. and many other horrible things down through history.
And I think you are very right that His pure and holy anger is not in any way tainted with a lower nature, error or wrongdoing :)
I agree. I don't like saying that the wrath of God IS the consequences of man's sin because it looks like it's saying that the wrath is coming from man rather than God. The wrath should be attributed to God, not man. But I do believe that the wrath of God is expressed through a pattern of letting man reap his own rewards of sin. Even when he sent fire onto S and G, I think that's a symbol of the wrath they were already under since Adam brought death into the world. When I compare Romans 1 to the Prodigal Son I see a strong correlation and yet the Father waits at the door for a return he knows will happen.
Quote from: Seth on February 03, 2015, 05:43:35 PM
. The wrath should be attributed to God, not man. But I do believe that the wrath of God is expressed through a pattern of letting man reap his own rewards of sin.
Yup.
Quote from: Seth on February 03, 2015, 05:43:35 PM
. The wrath should be attributed to God, not man. But I do believe that the wrath of God is expressed through a pattern of letting man reap his own rewards of sin.
That's also how I see it
The prodigal son was separated from the Father.
The Father was still interested in what the son was doing but decided not to interfere.
We can separate ourselves from God .
Our sin can separate us .
But God is greater than our sin.
I agree with. But also the Father gave the son all the means he needed to separate himself. Without the Father giving him the means, the son would have most likely stayed. But he still would have had the wrong attitude internally.
Quote from: Seth on February 05, 2015, 11:51:42 PM
I agree with. But also the Father gave the son all the means he needed to separate himself. Without the Father giving him the means, the son would have most likely stayed. But he still would have had the wrong attitude internally.
ETers believe God gave the son the means to separate himself for eternity .
As a Father God will interfere and only allow the separation
to demonstrate the True Love God is.
Demonstrative purposes, absolutely, and redemptive. "Egypt is an iron smelting fire." Deut 4:20
From now on I will announce new things to you,
hidden things that you have not known.
7
They have been created now, and not long ago;
you have not heard of them before today,
so you could not claim, 'I already knew them!'
8
You have never heard; you have never known;
For a long time your ears have not been open.
For I knew that you were very treacherous,
and were known as a rebel from birth.
9
I will delay My anger for the honor of My name,
and I will restrain Myself for your benefit and for My praise,
so that you will not be destroyed.
10
Look, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested[c] you in the furnace of affliction.
11
I will act for My own sake, indeed, My own,
for how can I[d] be defiled?
I will not give My glory to another.
Isaiah 48
Gods wrath and haterd is agaist evil itself. Jesus said God is love. He told us to love our enemies and to love our neighbor as ourselves. It doesn't say your Christian nieghbor just your nieghbor. Can one be happy in Heaven while someone he loves as himself is in eternal misery with no mercy and no hope of redemption? God is to be served out of love and awe not out of fear. Perfect love casts out fear. God has not given us the spirit of fear.
According to mainstream christianity the thought of them will be erased from our minds. We will be so happy that nothing bad will come to mind.
CHB
The Salvation of All men and the conforming/changing them unto the image of His son...IS THE GLORY OF GOD!!!!!!!!
Hard to say He will lead us into all truth....but erase our memories about the judgment of the wicked.
Hard to say we will "knw as we are known" if He erases our memories.
Hard to say God is light and in Him is no darkness at all, if He needs to erase from our memories some of His works.
I guess the myth of Hell breeds other myths eh? :laugh:
I think the simple answer to the original post is through Christ's blood on the cross (Colossians 1:20).
I think all this [exercize in evil] will be like a nightmare....that fades through the DAY. so glad that ALL our loved ones are alive!
the torment of the nightmare[evil/death/suffering] will fade from our minds in the GREAT ETERNAL DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: eaglesway on April 10, 2015, 08:25:46 PM
Hard to say He will lead us into all truth....but erase our memories about the judgment of the wicked.
Hard to say we will "knw as we are known" if He erases our memories.
Hard to say God is light and in Him is no darkness at all, if He needs to erase from our memories some of His works.
I guess the myth of Hell breeds other myths eh? :laugh:
Stop being so consistent! :laughing7:
IN HER GODS WRATH IS COMPLETE REV 15
Seven Angels with Seven Plagues
1Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. 2And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God....
Leviticus 26:21
"'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve.
Revelation 9:20
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Revelation 12:3
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.
Revelation 15:6
Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests.
Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.
Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."
Revelation 17:1
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters.
Revelation 21:9
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Quote from: Caffus on April 10, 2015, 06:16:45 PM
Gods wrath and haterd is agaist evil itself.
I think this is the key to the matter. It is not a case of God's love VERSUS God's wrath - the latter is a dimension of the former. It is a part of the nature of a loving person to be angry at evil. Toleration of cruelty and injustice is not love it is indifference: anyone who can stand by and watch a weak human or animal being ill-treated and feel no anger about it would themselves be either evil or dead. God is neither of these, He IS love and therefore He does discipline and punish out of necessity just as a loving parent would. Yet the aim of that punishment is to bring the perpetrator to his right senses for the purpose of their healing and ultimate reconciliation.
:thumbsup:
I believe none can understand the Love of God without experiencing the evil and its destruction first , thus the reason for this temporary dwelling place
where good and evil reside the tree of knowledge of good and evil
Hebrews 12 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith,
who for the joy set before Him endured the cross,
despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God
. 3For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Those under the letter of the law and men took it by force causing death to become more and more of increasing sin
We see Jesus come and give Life to those and was abused for it
when He died on that cross for us sinners we were once hostile against God desire
proving the point that when CHRIST DIED the new covenant was set in place and the gifts of the Holy spirit were poured out on all flesh
those promises God spoke of though HIS SON they would LIVE and not die no more
I AM THE RESURRECTION LIFE JOHN 11 ...24Martha said to Him, "
I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...
I am one who believes His Word and waiting to see Jesus again and am living in the SPIRIT but dying in the flesh daily but I really do believe His tasting death for every man has kept me from the hour of trial that shall come upon the whole world
those who believe in Jesus has passed from death to Life
John 5 ...23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
to me this is the hour of trial that comes upon the whole world to JUDGEMENT and wrath of God and those who receive the mark of the beast of Babylon and go though the wrath of Gods seven bowls , not a rapture , that is silly to me , but a protection of His seal of the HOLY SPIRIT , though its going on now in my opinion and has been for a long time being poured out in the earth , Jesus as His HOLY SPIRIT and Fire was poured out on all flesh on the Day of Pentecost
25"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live....
its NOW for us , just as it was NOW for them and it is NOW for those who read the words of His book and hear HIS VOICE .voice of many waters the waters of LIFE freely
1 Thes 4 The Return of the Lord
...15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord,
will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,
and so we shall always be with the Lord. but now I/We live because of HIM , His love for all of us and life though HIM and being caught up with the Lord always with Him is thrilling to expect it as never ending , who can separate us from the love of God ?? !!
I can honestly say I was dead in sin and trespass and did not know God nor His will and desire , I knew nothing about God and life and living to HIM ,and was living in the world , but not to God , than the law came and it killed me again and was twice dead because I could not keep all the law and now I am resting in Hope of Jesus and His works and loving Him and He us and know this in my heart , because I believe Him , hear His Voice speaking in the scriptures LIFE , LIFE , LIFE and there is no death at all in ME , the prince of this world is death and has nothing in Jesus ..... he is judged already , according to the scriptures
So I wait on the Lord in faith and rest in hope and know the Love of God is REAL these three things remain , though I have lost everything else in this world mostly desire to be a part of it any longer
so I am dead to the world and don't taste it touch it nor handle it the joy is gone , its the Lord and His joy I desire now , and its for all , not just myself any longer Col 2
Alive in Christ
...20If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world,
why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees,
such as, 21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use)-- in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?...
Those of Babylon are followers of men and teach men to become the two fold sons of the graves / death is the fruits of their lips and the wrath of God abides on them children of disobedience they become the prince of this world being death and the graves/ the dead follow after it , its the rider of the pale horse and the King over all the children of pride it is the sea monster Leviathan [Job 41] God made in the beginning
those whom LIVE sword die by the sword by force making the letter of the law that kills as you judge so shall YOU be judged show no mercy and you recive no mercy
For me this is those whom the Sword being the SWORD OF GODS SPIRIT= WORD and those living in JESUS peace are called the children of peace , using the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT rightly dividing the word of God ..
17And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
52Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
the sword of hIS MOUTH ...15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'
Isaiah 49:2
He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
SAME SWORD OF THE SPIRIT SLAYS THE WICKED , we must learn Jesus PEACE AND THE SPIRIT OF LIFE over the letter of the law being death
If you really HATE someone you seek to first of all SEPARATE yourself from that what you truly HATE! This is in my view NOT what goes on in Jesus gospels...
"If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out. It is better for you to enter into God's Kingdom with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna* of fire, 'where their WORM doesn't die, and the fire is not quenched.'FOR EVERYONE WILL BE SALTED WITH FIRE, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt."
Mark 9:47-49
"He answered them, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the children of the Kingdom; and the darnel weeds are the children of the evil one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. As therefore the darnel weeds are gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. "
Matthew 13:37-43
Or the book of revelation
"Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be TORMENTED with FIRE and BRIMSTONE in the PRESENCE of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. The SMOKE OF THERE TORMENT goes up FOREVER AND EVER! They have NO REST day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. Here is the perseverance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
Revelation:9-12
This is because...
"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God"
Deuteronomy 4:24
"for our "God is a consuming fire"
Hebrews 12:29
So "hell" is actually NOT isolation from god, according to the BIBLE!
As for Gods WRATH...well...i personally see it as a VIOLENT from of PASSION!
"Now I will arise," says Yahweh;
"Now I will lift myself up.
Now I will be exalted.
You will conceive chaff.
You will give birth to stubble.
Your breath is a fire that will devour you.
The peoples will be like the BURNING LIME,
like thorns that are cut down and burned in the fire.
Hear, you who are far off, what I have done;
and, you who are near, acknowledge my might."
The SINNERS IN ZION are afraid.
Trembling has seized the godless ones.
Who among us can live with the DEVOURING FIRE!
Who among us can live with EVERLASTING BURNING!
He who walks RIGHTEOUSLY
and speaks blamelessly;
He who despises the gain of oppressions,
who gestures with his hands, refusing to take a bribe,
who stops his ears from hearing of blood,
and shuts his eyes from looking at evil—
he will dwell on high.
His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks.
His bread will be supplied.
His waters will be SURE
Isiah 33:10-16
For example the Greek words Thumos and Orge (borh found in the book of revelation) describe GREAT PASSION...not "hate"
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G3709/orge.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumos
In for example Hebrew the word "Darone" means great disgust as in terms disgust towards a ROTTENING COPRSE! This is seen in the Book of Daniel talking about "everlating contempt" or rather some form of heavenly humilation!
Anyway...Gods WRATH is a very difficult topic. It basicly means...well
(http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/kawahnight_12_08/k15_00000023.jpg)
A fierly lake of fire and brimstone!
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/uses-of-sulfur.html
Ouch it's really HOT in there :eek:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/basanizo.html
Dont know will anybody ever make it out there alive, but Jesus does say they are indeed ALIVE still at the end of the book!
"Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. OUTSIDE ARE THE DOGS, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. I, JESUS have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star."
Revelation 22:12-16
You know...in Hebrew culture you are either DEAD OR ALIVE basicly...thats what the word Nefesh literally means...ANIMATED CREATURE!
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8921/nefesh-neshama-and-ruach-as-words-for-soul
Isaaih 43;2 when you pass through the waters I will be with you,and when you pass through the rivers they will not sweep over you.
when you walk through the fire you will not be burned;the flames will not set you ablaze.
Because of His GREAT LOVE ye sons of men are not consumed.
Place me like a seal over your heart,like a seal on your arm.
FOR LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH..IT'S JEALOUSY UNYIELDING AS THE GRAVE
IT BURNS LIKE BLAZING FIRE,LIKE A MIGHTY FLAME
MANY WATERS CAN NOT QUENCH LOVE;RIVERS CAN NOT WASH IT AWAY
OUR SAVIOUR IS WHAT DELIVERS US FROM WRATH...HE TAKES AWAY ALL OUR SINS
So Christ was sacrificed once..to take away the sins of many people; AND HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME
NOT TO BEAR SIN...BUT TO BRING SALVATION TO THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM.
Hi JH , I don't know if you can hear me or not or understand what I am sharing from my heart , you have never spoke to me yet . ..
There is more to Life than just being mortal . that is dead already to me because it never inherits anything but death anyways , right ?
the only kingdom this mortal body gets is some ''temp'' time in the here and now ... and that counts as nothing
But God is preparing many for immortality in the here and now just by hearing His Voice and Live live here and now and live on ..
We are to be covered /clothed , dressed in immortality that being Christ His Blood makes you whiter than snow , this is the white robes to me that the saints / holy one are wearing
I do believe that the 'White robes '' share in the WHITE THRONE OF GOD judgment of MERCY as a reward of being faithful , obedient to His Word / being Jesus Christ and His SPIRIT which is TRUTH in Love .. they judge messengers /angels . the ones whom speak death and those whom speak LIFE
Paul says this in the Word and that is why I believe the fire throne has been Judging since the Time of the CROSS , which Jesus said was to bring Fire on the earth to DIVIDE to me it is the messengers/ some call them angels of life and death and he makes His messengers Spirits & ministers of fire ,
you can be mortal still and be more than mortal in my opinion while walking on the earth but walk in the Spirit as well , this division is to me using the scriptures of old times and still being under the law of Moses and His body that satan can still touch ,
but only if the Lord does not rebuke him , because Michael the Angel warrior messenger /who is like God, being with Jesus Christ to me /who is like God and with Jesus Christ ?, this was HIS REVEALING new name in the New book of Life , testament witness to me ,He stands up for us when we speak death in truth ,
it is also what Paul done often in his writing , he never ever spoke evil of the law of Moses and it is the ministration of death , but life and death are ours to experience in the here and now .
So really we are being judged now by what we say and especially by what we do I believe in Daniel 7 it is the judgment seat of Christ Daniel saw
and John saw Gods Throne this white one is also Jesus sitting in it with His Father and all those whom have been gathered from the scattering of the little white sheep that belong to Him from the beginning and those whom have been ''picked up along the way '' one by one to be gathered withe 99 parable in His pasture and care , but now are going to be Judging the world with the Father &Son .
Rev 22 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.
I believe this is Michael , name meaning ''whom is like God'' and a mighty warrior of Israel , fighting for the people against sin and error and death and satan's hold on them
meet the Lord in the air as walking in the Spirit , not walking the earth and flesh and going up and down on it like satan is to pick and judge put down and trample under his feet satan is what ? turned on over for the destruction of the flesh so in the day of the Lord he shall be saved
, to be a cloud is preaching the gospel of the good news of Jesus peace to all the ends of the earth shake off the dust , being our flesh scattering and not our spirit being gathered into Christ and the witnesses , Jesus said YOU are my witnesses
13"If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. 14"Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15"Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.
Believe it or not you are a city , either a city set on a ''hill being a ''ruler / angel '' messenger to guard and report '' that cannot be hid , you are no longer hidden from Jesus sight and all the angels messengers as the Light Shines on our hearts and words and deeds
we are under close eye and scrutiny a critical observation and examination , by the Seven eyes though all the earth
and your Light remains if you remain faithful to Him and grows Brighter in truth and grace
or not as you light is taken away as the 7 churches in REVELATION 2 & 3 prove as rewards and critical tests and chastening of the Lord Himself
Matthew 10:13
If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you.
Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."
Luke 10:11
Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.'
I do beieve the scriptures that the Kingdom of God is within you ,, and its a now and forever thing
NOW to me as I learn what it means ,,,you are alive in Christ and gathered with Him and all the saints to the New Holy SION MOUNTAIN Hebrews 12 THIS IS THE CITY and Kingdom of GOD
where all the gathered witness are like huge Cloud and Jesus comes in the cloud of witnesses 1 Thessalonians 4
When we read in Daniel 7 we see this throne is FIRE [JESUS ] but in Rev 20, it is WHITE [GODS THRONE OF THE LIVING made alive in Christ Fire one ] ..
Are they the same Throne ? , I dont think so , Just sharing what I believe it is , so take this with a grain of salt :winkgrin:
GOD BLESS
Quote from: sheila on May 11, 2015, 05:14:22 PM
Isaaih 43;2 when you pass through the waters I will be with you,and when you pass through the rivers they will not sweep over you.
when you walk through the fire you will not be burned;the flames will not set you ablaze.
Because of His GREAT LOVE ye sons of men are not consumed.
Place me like a seal over your heart,like a seal on your arm.
FOR LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH..IT'S JEALOUSY UNYIELDING AS THE GRAVE
IT BURNS LIKE BLAZING FIRE,LIKE A MIGHTY FLAME
MANY WATERS CAN NOT QUENCH LOVE;RIVERS CAN NOT WASH IT AWAY
OUR SAVIOUR IS WHAT DELIVERS US FROM WRATH...HE TAKES AWAY ALL OUR SINS
So Christ was sacrificed once..to take away the sins of many people; AND HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME
NOT TO BEAR SIN...BUT TO BRING SALVATION TO THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM.
TOOK me a long time to write all that :sigh:
and you had this up when I was done sis Sheila
yes,, I can SEE the burning bush !!
You know it took me forever to "get " that :Chinscratch:
they are alive to GOD in the fire and yet not consumed !!
or their names would not have been in the books , memorial book now being called the BOOK OF LiFE :HeartThrob:
books opened Rev 20 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
no earth or flesh there nor that Queen of heaven ruling any longer , its not permitted for a woman to teach its the LAW !! Just Spirit and truth and those worshipping the FATHER IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened;
and another book was opened,
which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books,
according to their deeds.
WOW !! no longer sealed but wide open for all to see , no hiding from the truth and Light !!
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it,
and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them;
and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
some now, some later , some already been there and done that ! the Kingdom of God already exist , it always has and always will
GOD never changes , but thanks be to God
we do because HE does change us all according to His own desire and will :HeartThrob:
IT IS VERY BUSY PLACE , being about the Father business
I AMBUSH....I AM.[.YOU/ewe] BE ,[we aRe] ONE Because He is we be[exist] and are ONE in Him.
amber=electrum..which is His body..of fire below the waist and amber/electrum above.
the whole creation is made of and consists of His substance[body] we are little portions of Him...He shares His life/consciousness
with us. There is no life nor consciousness apart from Him. O"IMMANUEL! I am man U[YOU] are EL[God]
we live because He lives
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
I saw this in a vision once a long time ago many years , and did not think about it , till your post sis , the same thing
the ring of fire was around Him and the bottom was not defined or refined but burning with great force all the way down
and above was the Light and you could see somewhat a face shining so bright it was hard to see because of the brilliant white Light , but it was loving and caring and only seconds
it was a tiny glimpse of glory , HIS GLORY , I do believe :HeartThrob:
I do not know if you are supposed to speak of those things or not , I am not sure of a lot of things still
but I do treasure everything He shares with us all and everyone experiences
I know none are ''special '' in the eyes of God nor one another , its something we all look forward too is more and more of Him :dsunny:
yes...He showed you His glory.......we that are in the earth[planted in His field/clay vessels] are like the roots of Him that is
the TREE OF LIFE in the midst of the garden. we can produce froots. for this reason those already risen as the leaves......
are not perfected apart from us. In this He takes BEAUTY[refined ones] and Bands[us still bound in flesh] and makes us ONE/UNION
in HIS HAND in the refinement process/dwelling with Him.
....the kingdom of Heaven is like...a mustard seed...that become the largest tree in the garden[the birds come and roost in it's branches]
doves as holy spirits/the spirits of just men made perfect
:2c: Perhaps the misunderstanding of what His correction is? Reverence and Awe...have been established and taught as fear.....yet those who are learning, have found out there is no fear in love as it is perfected/completed in those with ears to hear. :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 30, 2015, 10:34:05 AM
The message of universal reconciliation is that judgment is remedial, and that God's purpose in everything He does is restoration.
As the Psalmist says, Psalm 85:10 Lovingkindness and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
If wrath is a reflection of God's distaste for unrighteousness, mercy is the reflection of His ultimate cure for it. :declare:
A great summary of an important point. Well worth remembering, for teaching and discussion sake, regarding UR.
Many forget that wrath is an essential part of love. A wise parent is not always the "candy man" who loves giving his children anything they ask: this is not love. A good parent is mainly a just and wise parent, with those children who don't follow his rules. So God, who is a wonderfully wise and good Father, is in His essence wrath as well, because Love is also Wrath. There cannot be a Wise Love without judgement, justice, punishment, chastisment, wrath. These words may sound hard, but the more the Lord loves us, the greater His correction towards us is (Proverbs 3:11-12). Universalists do emphasize God's Love, but by doing that they automatically emphasize His wrath! The only "dogma" they question is: will His punishment be everlasting?
Lorenzo, I like the comparison to God and a parent (Jesus did too :)). I have two small children. Sometimes I have to set boundaries, and my 3 year old reacts like I am being the meanest mommy ever. An example that just happened today is that he wanted a gum ball, because he recently discovered the wonders of gum (and those tempting machines). I told him gum is a "sometimes thing" and we weren't going to get it today. I empathized with him that I knew he really wanted it. I didn't yell or stomp my feet or punish or spank (things you'd think of when you hear "wrath") but he was still upset. I like to think of our relationship to God like that. He knows what is best for us but we perceive his loving guidance and chastisement as wrath in our immaturity. God doesn't react out Of anger like an explosive emotion-driven human, but he does judge, correct and chastise. Our perception is based on our willingness to understand and follow his will and his corrections and to understand that he is doing it out of love and knowing what is best.
Quote from: GodIsLove on November 12, 2015, 02:02:06 AM
Lorenzo, I like the comparison to God and a parent (Jesus did too :)). I have two small children. Sometimes I have to set boundaries, and my 3 year old reacts like I am being the meanest mommy ever. An example that just happened today is that he wanted a gum ball, because he recently discovered the wonders of gum (and those tempting machines). I told him gum is a "sometimes thing" and we weren't going to get it today. I empathized with him that I knew he really wanted it. I didn't yell or stomp my feet or punish or spank (things you'd think of when you hear "wrath") but he was still upset. I like to think of our relationship to God like that. He knows what is best for us but we perceive his loving guidance and chastisement as wrath in our immaturity. God doesn't react out Of anger like an explosive emotion-driven human, but he does judge, correct and chastise. Our perception is based on our willingness to understand and follow his will and his corrections and to understand that he is doing it out of love and knowing what is best.
GodIsLove you're absolutely right. But as you sometimes have to chastise your children for their own sake so doth God in His love towards us. but neither you nor God could chastise your children forever.
God is a parent, and most often behaves as you describe when His kids are petulant. But in my opinion, the gumball example, altho it can be widely applied, does not always apply.
For instance if my child wants a gumball, and I don't give it to him, so he goes and tries to take another child's gumball and the other child wont give it up, so he goes and gets a baseball bat and beats the child and takes his gumball, then wrath(orge- outbreak) can be an appropriate response. Wrath is anger manifest towards an egregious violator, a predator so to speak- Cain and Able fit my example perfectly.
But God reserves the right to wrath for Himself alone. He punishes Cain, but then says if anyone tries to avenge Able, God's wrath will manifest towards them as well. The flood of Noah was an example of wrath and any I dont think any rationale can take the wrath out of it.
The issue(imo) is not whether God's wrath somehow invalidates His mercy, but rather that His mercy is always greater than His wrath.
I don't like the word "wrath" per say, and I dont think it accurately describes this anger that will activate God to stop, sometimes emphaticly, the actions of eggregious violators of the law of love. "Wrath" almost sounds like pointless rage. But "orge" does carry a meaning of an outburst- God 'breaking through" in a case where the violator makes it necessary. Paul said, "Be angry and sin not, let not the sun go down on your wrath". Thats the King James English. I like the New International translation better
"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry"
God never sins out of His anger, and we can trust that if He is angry enough to take extreme action, it is well-deserved, and He will recover the judged through mercy when there rebellion is broken, or exhausted.
As I see it in both the OT and NT God does not manifest that anger until many appeals have gone unheeded, or someone needs to be protected from someone else.
But imo anger is a particular manifestation of the emotional character of God that I dont think we can, or should, devalue in a uni-lateral sense.
I do realize tho that people are sensitive to teachings about the Lord's anger because so many Christians have painted Him as almost always, and eternally- angry, and the evil one often masquerades as an angry God tormenting and punishing people for sins they need mercy and grace to overcome.
So it is a complicated issue, yes?
Eaglesway, good points...
Though I can't claim to know the mind of God, I like to understand the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc as God knowing that nothing else would get through to the people of that time, so he destroyed for a purpose. It could be my own bias, but even when I read in the bible of these more extreme examples of God's judgement, I don't see wrath in the human sense, I see a God who is shaping humanity through his plan, and sometimes that means destroying temporarily with the intent to restore later. Cain killed his own brother and his punishment was to be exiled but like you said, no one else was allowed to harm him. He wasn't tortured or even killed himself, which would have been "fair" in the eye for an eye law that was to come later.
I also want to express my appreciate for you and everyone else here on Tentmaker. I love these discussions and I love gaining new perspectives from you all.
I see Sodom and Gomorrah like an infection that is so bad it threatens the whole body.
I also think we forget that life is a privilege given by thge Creator- not a right. God has a plan from the beginning, and I believe it involves our character as individuals and as a race. This is why I believe there is a measure of free will in the "works" and that there is interaction between God and man- what else could explain the horrific evil that happens in this world.
If God `has planned ands caused all the terrible injustice and suffering in this world, then I dont care if He eventually saves all. It would still be something monstrous in my mind.
So the "mystery of iniquity" is something deeper than we can see. At the time of the flood, the violence and depravity of mankind had reached a point to where his continued existence was an assault on future generations and an assault on God's own "desire" or "kind intention" to bring man into fellowship with Himself,
But all this is just my opinion and limited perspective on some very deep and sometimes troubling questions- to which I do not believe there is a simple answer :2c:
Quote from: GodIsLove on November 12, 2015, 03:41:24 PM
Eaglesway, good points...
Though I can't claim to know the mind of God, I like to understand the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc as God knowing that nothing else would get through to the people of that time, so he destroyed for a purpose. It could be my own bias, but even when I read in the bible of these more extreme examples of God's judgement, I don't see wrath in the human sense, I see a God who is shaping humanity through his plan, and sometimes that means destroying temporarily with the intent to restore later. Cain killed his own brother and his punishment was to be exiled but like you said, no one else was allowed to harm him. He wasn't tortured or even killed himself, which would have been "fair" in the eye for an eye law that was to come later.
I also want to express my appreciate for you and everyone else here on Tentmaker. I love these discussions and I love gaining new perspectives from you all.
Amen.. :iagree: (with Eaglesway too.) Some infections if not dealt with will poison the whole body.. and with the flood, too, there was the issue of the nephilim, which perhaps we all would have been descended from. Except of course humanity may perhaps have perished long ago...
Yes, I agree with the cancer analogy.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 12, 2015, 08:49:55 AM
God is a parent, and most often behaves as you describe when His kids are petulant. But in my opinion, the gumball example, altho it can be widely applied, does not always apply.
For instance if my child wants a gumball, and I don't give it to him, so he goes and tries to take another child's gumball and the other child wont give it up, so he goes and gets a baseball bat and beats the child and takes his gumball, then wrath(orge- outbreak) can be an appropriate response. Wrath is anger manifest towards an egregious violator, a predator so to speak- Cain and Able fit my example perfectly.
But God reserves the right to wrath for Himself alone. He punishes Cain, but then says if anyone tries to avenge Able, God's wrath will manifest towards them as well. The flood of Noah was an example of wrath and any I dont think any rationale can take the wrath out of it.
The issue(imo) is not whether God's wrath somehow invalidates His mercy, but rather that His mercy is always greater than His wrath.
I don't like the word "wrath" per say, and I dont think it accurately describes this anger that will activate God to stop, sometimes emphaticly, the actions of eggregious violators of the law of love. "Wrath" almost sounds like pointless rage. But "orge" does carry a meaning of an outburst- God 'breaking through" in a case where the violator makes it necessary. Paul said, "Be angry and sin not, let not the sun go down on your wrath". Thats the King James English. I like the New International translation better
"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry"
God never sins out of His anger, and we can trust that if He is angry enough to take extreme action, it is well-deserved, and He will recover the judged through mercy when there rebellion is broken, or exhausted.
As I see it in both the OT and NT God does not manifest that anger until many appeals have gone unheeded, or someone needs to be protected from someone else.
But imo anger is a particular manifestation of the emotional character of God that I dont think we can, or should, devalue in a uni-lateral sense.
I do realize tho that people are sensitive to teachings about the Lord's anger because so many Christians have painted Him as almost always, and eternally- angry, and the evil one often masquerades as an angry God tormenting and punishing people for sins they need mercy and grace to overcome.
So it is a complicated issue, yes?
:iagree: :dsunny:
:iagree: too.. For example what God of all Love worth his salt would not be angry at the mistreating, abuse and oppression of other of God's children.. saved or not yet saved.. As with Israel the (human) sacrificing of the innocent/children on the altar of pagan worship, I believe it is Psalm 106 (or 36?) which more or less says it was the last straw in Israel's rebellion.. Yet too the wrath/anger was the allowing of Israel's enemies to overcome and mistreat them.
And, of course, in balance, He is not the angry God just waiting to pounce which much preaching and e.t. makes him out to be (and increasingly, or sometimes, mimics?).
Righteous anger, yet infinite patience and mercy. And when it comes to the big picture, what we call "apocalypse" I believe to (mostly) be the collapse of man's doings (man's world) - the collapse which "unveils" truth.. Build it, without God, and minus God, and they will not come (ultimately).. for it can only fall in a puff of self destructive smoke.. and dust.. Even if only eventually. The climax of the story (lesson).
Like the cup city babylon holds in her hand.. the side effects of her enchantments.. "having a golden cup in her hand full of her abominations and uncleanness".. "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" .."Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her (resulting?) plagues.".."in the cup that she did mingle, mingle to her double." She will drink (the results of) her own cup of abominations, come out of her, lest we drink her cup.. the side effects of her immoralities, the slow and torturous dissolution of family and society / civilization to the full.. Paradox usually is balance of two poles..
:2c: :smile:
"I agree with the author of this article on one point: we should not base universal salvation on the notion that God is beholden to our own notions of fairness etc, that God should do what WE would do in his position. Nobody is to be saved because they have a "right" to it, or deserve it."
Agreed.
That being said:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Corinthians 13New International Version (NIV)
13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
And this quote:
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4: 7 - 8
Our God has many, many attributes, but, the most prominent, and the most overriding is Love. I believe that is the theme of our story of Salvation. Despite our unfaithfulness, despite our sins, despite the fact that we all deserve death........He loves us.
And God has pledged His unfailing love for us over and over again. Never more pronounced than when Jesus gave His life on the Cross, for our Salvation. And we are told that we can count on His love for us.
And, yet still:
Romans 5:7 - 9
...7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him....
Yes, justice is a part of God, as well. Absolutely. However, I don't think we can equate such things as the time of Noah and the demise of the population, the same way we perceive eternal punishment. I think we need to look at the issue of death to this world from God's point of view. We all must die at some point. Death is just being born to a new life, in God's view, IMO. It is not the same at eternal punishment and the permanent state of being separated from God, with no hope of reconciliation.
If we use a parent model, a good parent will punish their child, at times, but ultimately wants the best for them and for them to be 'victorious' in their life. Punishment is a means to get the child to a state in which they can function and be on a good track, independent of the need for parental guidence continually.
Anyway, my :2c:
D.
QuoteHow Does UR Reconcile God's Love with God's Wrath?
By sharing your faith in God .....
UR knows the beginning and END is Christ , and placed all in the power of GODS PLAN as in effect ..
and the faith , hope and Love is in the LORD JESUS CHRIST , being the LORD of the dead and living ...
and this passage has always blessed and gives a sure hope in Jesus Christ as the TRUTH
1 John Love One Another
...13Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you.
14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren.
He who does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.... ertrnal life is Christ in you the hope of glory , to me it is that simple
the world and its afflictions is a enemy against the SPIRIT OF LIFE and it come down to ''How we think and process and act on them ''
We cannot have both , it is a either , or , and who does not battle with their own flesh and blood carnal ways at times when you least expect it ?
I believe we learn righteousness of God in our earth , being , by having peace and joy in the Holy Spirit and desire this for everyone born of woman , in hope of being born again in the
SPIRIT OF TRUTH
JOHN 3 ...4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you
, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and
that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.... John 4 ...22"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23"
But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people
the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."... This to me is how we are made a new and be a part of the LORD JESUS CHRIST , HIS NEW CREATION
You do not worship the Father in any other way , but by the purest form of HIS OWN SPIRIT and truth within you , the seed is CHRIST , the WORD OF GOD made flesh .... JESUS CHRIST WAS AND IS THE FIRST AND ONE OF A KIND sent by the Father into the world , to make all things new in and though Him , the beginning is and was and will be set forever and the ultimate END IS CHRIST ...
The beginning/ALPHA and end /OMEGA ,is Christ before the world was .
Revelation 1: 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Judgment is in the earth 2 Peter 3 Christ's Coming Judgment
...6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day....
Romans 9 The Calling of the Gentiles !!!
...28FOR
THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY." 29 And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A
POSTERITY, the seed word of Life , Jesus Christ WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."
being the fire of judgments in the earth .. WORD IS A FIRE
Jeremiah 23:29
"Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
pos·ter·i·ty
[päˈsterədē]
NOUN
all future generations of people:
"the victims' names are recorded for posterity"
synonyms: future generations · the future
archaic
the descendants of a person:
"God offered Abraham a posterity like the stars of heaven"
synonyms: future generations · the future
Jer 20...8For each time I speak, I cry aloud; I proclaim violence and destruction,
Because for me the word of the LORD has resulted In reproach and derision all day long.
9But if I say, "I will not remember Him Or speak anymore in His name,"
Then in my heart it becomes like a burning fire Shut up in my bones; And I am weary of holding it in, And I cannot endure it. 10For I have heard the whispering of many, "Terror on every side! Denounce him; yes, let us denounce him!" All my trusted friends, Watching for my fall, say: "Perhaps he will be deceived, so that we may prevail against him And take our revenge on him."...
The Word of God is where we put our trust , not in man , not in ourselves as anything , ALL GLORY IS GODS , UR understands that rock solid eternal truth and declares it ..
in Matthew 5;21- we have counsel on anger/wrath etc....continue to be angry..despise etc. we can have a righteous anger....in
response to a wicked act..but there is a real danger of sin[missing the mark] in taking this offense.
a good study of Jesus counsel of dealing with anger...shows us the Father's heart/mind regarding wrath. How He thinks it should be
appropriately dealt with...and gives insight to how Father deals with it.
God's righteous anger against evil..does not cause Him to lose His temper and sin[miss the mark of love]. whether He deals with an
issue swiftly..or exercizes long-patience waiting for repentance. HE DEALS WITH IT.
[timely counsel for me..d/t my anger of Isis attacks]