Just playing Calvinist's advocate here. This was posted on another board (not by me):
--
Are you aware that the context of a passage has a great deal to do with the meaning of the world?
John 3:16 makes two references to people, "world" and "whoseover believeth in him". The latter is a subset of the other. The former is the whole group, and the latter is "some" of that whole group.
Look at this:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the [ALL], that he gave his only begotten Son,
that [SOME] should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Now, think about it... If God loves "all", why does He only save "some"?
Would any of these other similarly-arranged sentences make sense to you?:
"For the teacher cared for ALL THE CLASS, that he gave the red-heads candy."
"For the boss cared for ALL THE EMPLOYEES, that he gave the women a raise."
But that's exactly what you're doing with John 3:16, when you try to force a non-matching meaning onto "world", by assuming it means "every single individual".
Have you ever met someone who claimed to have travelled "all over the world"? Do you really think he was referring exhaustively to every single city and town? If someone travels to Toronto, Miami, Los Angeles, Rome, London, Perth, Mumbai, Paris, and Crete, would he be justified in saying, "I've travelled all over the world", or would you nit-pick and point out the places he hadn't visited?
It seems to me that "the world" here, simply indicates the scope of God's love, rather than the specific identity (which "whosoever believeth in him" actually addresses). It was commonly thought at the time that salvation was limited to Israel, "Salvation is of the Jews"), and Jesus/John here was simply pointing out that salvation wasn't limited to Israel, but was going to extend (scope-wise) throughout the world.
--
What say you defenders of the truth?
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Quote from: sven on March 12, 2009, 09:24:37 PM
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Hmm, you got me there.
But the interests of continuing on this experiment: That verse does not mean the whole world - because that would imply universalism!
You have to look at the context - the whole world doesn't mean the whole world because.... ah hm... ah dang who am I kidding. But wait - how about this - Jesus was the propitation for the sins of the whole world, but that doesn't mean he will save everyone - only those who are chosen. Yeah, that's it - you have to look at in context of all of scripture - scripture clearly shows that only the chosen receive eternal life.
Lets try another angle... work with me here.
God is willing that some perish!
God is unwilling to save some men, the seed of the serpent...gen 3:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel
Jesus had this to say to some of them Matt 23:
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Fill ye up in the greek is an imperative, so jesus was commanding them to continue in their evil course of behaviour, in order to be punished for it, he then says, how can you escape the damnation of hell..now it is absurd to think that Jesus christ wanted these men saved..
Its the exact opposite, He desired their damnation in hell, who can deny this ?
--
Challenge! Who can deny it?
legoman in reply to your 1st post a few out of context verses with a few remarks ==> ...
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
==> God gives full control to Jesus
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
==> The task of Jesus is to give eternal life to all things (=mankind)
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
==> And Jesus accomplishes His task
Quote from: legoman on March 12, 2009, 10:03:04 PM
Quote from: sven on March 12, 2009, 09:24:37 PM
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Hmm, you got me there.
But the interests of continuing on this experiment: That verse does not mean the whole world - because that would imply universalism!
You have to look at the context - the whole world doesn't mean the whole world because.... ah hm... ah dang who am I kidding. But wait - how about this - Jesus was the propitation for the sins of the whole world, but that doesn't mean he will save everyone - only those who are chosen. Yeah, that's it - you have to look at in context of all of scripture - scripture clearly shows that only the chosen receive eternal life.
Lets try another angle... work with me here.
God is willing that some perish!
God is unwilling to save some men, the seed of the serpent...gen 3:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel
Jesus had this to say to some of them Matt 23:
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Fill ye up in the greek is an imperative, so jesus was commanding them to continue in their evil course of behaviour, in order to be punished for it, he then says, how can you escape the damnation of hell..now it is absurd to think that Jesus christ wanted these men saved..
Its the exact opposite, He desired their damnation in hell, who can deny this ?
--
Challenge! Who can deny it?
The seed of the serpent is the flesh/ carnality. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Pretty simple, really.
Quote from: legoman on March 12, 2009, 09:22:42 PM
But that's exactly what you're doing with John 3:16, when you try to force a non-matching meaning onto "world", by assuming it means "every single individual".
Have you ever met someone who claimed to have travelled "all over the world"? Do you really think he was referring exhaustively to every single city and town? If someone travels to Toronto, Miami, Los Angeles, Rome, London, Perth, Mumbai, Paris, and Crete, would he be justified in saying, "I've travelled all over the world", or would you nit-pick and point out the places he hadn't visited?
It seems to me that "the world" here, simply indicates the scope of God's love, rather than the specific identity (which "whosoever believeth in him" actually addresses). It was commonly thought at the time that salvation was limited to Israel, "Salvation is of the Jews"), and Jesus/John here was simply pointing out that salvation wasn't limited to Israel, but was going to extend (scope-wise) throughout the world.
Does that logic also apply when speaking about being kicked into hell forever?
It's just the scope of Gods anger but doesn't really mean forever?
:laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 12, 2009, 11:01:04 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 12, 2009, 09:22:42 PM
But that's exactly what you're doing with John 3:16, when you try to force a non-matching meaning onto "world", by assuming it means "every single individual".
Have you ever met someone who claimed to have travelled "all over the world"? Do you really think he was referring exhaustively to every single city and town? If someone travels to Toronto, Miami, Los Angeles, Rome, London, Perth, Mumbai, Paris, and Crete, would he be justified in saying, "I've travelled all over the world", or would you nit-pick and point out the places he hadn't visited?
It seems to me that "the world" here, simply indicates the scope of God's love, rather than the specific identity (which "whosoever believeth in him" actually addresses). It was commonly thought at the time that salvation was limited to Israel, "Salvation is of the Jews"), and Jesus/John here was simply pointing out that salvation wasn't limited to Israel, but was going to extend (scope-wise) throughout the world.
Does that logic also apply when speaking about being kicked into hell forever?
It's just the scope of Gods anger but doesn't really mean forever?
:laughing7:
Clever.
Hmm... let me give the standard answer I am observing.
The world cannot mean the whole world because we know some people end up in hell forever. All cannot mean all also for the same reason.
If the world did mean the whole world, and all did mean all, then universalism would be the truth. And Jesus would have wasted a lot of time speaking about hell.
Therefore clearly the "world" and similar references must be refering to "scope" and not literally every single individual. (My understanding is that scope refers to the range of people - anyone from the whole world, jew or gentile, but not necessarily all).
--
But of course then we have to investigate what hell really is, what eternal really means, and what the lake of fire is for.
Thanks for humouring me. I'm actually discussing this over at CARM right now - I feel it will be an uphill battle if I go much further. Its not a friendly environment over there. Its so funny how often I hear "an interpretation of 'whole world' as 'every single indivdiual' leads inevitably to universalism, demonstrating the error in such a misinterpretation."
Please God open their eyes.
Legoman
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 12, 2009, 11:01:04 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 12, 2009, 09:22:42 PM
But that's exactly what you're doing with John 3:16, when you try to force a non-matching meaning onto "world", by assuming it means "every single individual".
Have you ever met someone who claimed to have travelled "all over the world"? Do you really think he was referring exhaustively to every single city and town? If someone travels to Toronto, Miami, Los Angeles, Rome, London, Perth, Mumbai, Paris, and Crete, would he be justified in saying, "I've travelled all over the world", or would you nit-pick and point out the places he hadn't visited?
It seems to me that "the world" here, simply indicates the scope of God's love, rather than the specific identity (which "whosoever believeth in him" actually addresses). It was commonly thought at the time that salvation was limited to Israel, "Salvation is of the Jews"), and Jesus/John here was simply pointing out that salvation wasn't limited to Israel, but was going to extend (scope-wise) throughout the world.
Does that logic also apply when speaking about being kicked into hell forever?
It's just the scope of Gods anger but doesn't really mean forever?
:laughing7:
You make the error of assuming its a bad idea that people burn in hell forever. Its only a bad idea if everyone is saved.
:winkgrin:
if you are speaking with b57...forget it. been addressing him and exposing his contradictions for 2 yrs.
also, there are some REAL hard cor calvinist's over there and will bring the worst out in a person if allowed.
be carefull, been there.
God bless
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on March 13, 2009, 04:45:40 PM
if you are speaking with b57...forget it. been addressing him and exposing his contradictions for 2 yrs.
chuckt
No it was Theo#### in one of the calvinism threads. He seems to have a chip on his shoulder too.
Regarding b57... I read some of his posts - its pretty twisted. He is the one who thinks its Jesus will that some people go to hell, that God doesn't love everyone, and in fact God commands people to go to hell. Bizarre... that kind of doctinal thinking can really screw with how you interact with other people.
Quote from: legoman on March 13, 2009, 04:55:47 PM
Quote from: chuckt on March 13, 2009, 04:45:40 PM
if you are speaking with b57...forget it. been addressing him and exposing his contradictions for 2 yrs.
chuckt
No it was Theo#### in one of the calvinism threads. He seems to have a chip on his shoulder too.
Regarding b57... I read some of his posts - its pretty twisted. He is the one who thinks its Jesus will that some people go to hell, that God doesn't love everyone, and in fact God commands people to go to hell. Bizarre... that kind of doctinal thinking can really screw with how you interact with other people.
theo just put me on his ignore list.
may he be blessed.
yes b57 is very very twisted.
yet he know scripture and can prooftext with the best of them, he is a shining example of:
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
by the grace of God go i. since i was once like him i show mercy yet firmness.
if you back some of these into a corner and expose contradictions they will put you on ignore, but worry not, others see and God is in control of the growing.
inlove
chuckt
Quote from: legoman on March 13, 2009, 04:41:22 PM
You make the error of assuming its a bad idea that people burn in hell forever. Its only a bad idea if everyone is saved.
Sorry, I'm <bleep> atheist that always assumed God is a rolemodel and that love your neighbour means helping that neighbour. Now the veil is starting to be lifted I understand I should burn their house down while they are asleep....
:cloud9: That's funny WW, because that is essentially what they think God does; burn their house down while they're asleep (in darkess/don't know Him)...... :mshock:
In reply to post #7
It makes me think of Hitler. When a Jew did well at school that was just proof all Jews cheat on exams.
When at atlethics blacks won gold medals instead of the German superhumans that just proof blacks are animals (horses run fast)
The above may seem totally off-topic but it isn't. The view of Hitler was that Jews are sub humans. Even if a 1000 pieces of eveidence where presented that Jews actually are human too it got twisted in a way that proved they where sub human. It wouldn't come in Hitlers mind that his sub human theory perhaps needed 'slight' adjustment.
I see the same in the answers from the ETs.
The answer has to be UR is false (Jews are sub human)
1000 pieces of evidence won't change that. Everything that vaguely points to UR (jews are human) is attacked.
People should be more like scientists; review all data. What we got now is a scientist that still claims earth is flat and spends his whole life making up exuses why the photo's, calculations and other observations show differently...
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2009, 05:19:12 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 13, 2009, 04:41:22 PM
You make the error of assuming its a bad idea that people burn in hell forever. Its only a bad idea if everyone is saved.
Sorry, I'm <bleep> atheist that always assumed God is a rolemodel and that love your neighbour means helping that neighbour. Now the veil is starting to be lifted I understand I should burn their house down while they are asleep....
And don't forget that God created both you and your neighbor in the first place. Therefore we come to the conclusion that God created your neighbor for the sole reason that you can burn his house down (why? possibly for your enjoyment I guess).
Legoman look out your window now. See that neighbor in that lava-red t-shirt? That's me. :laughing7:
"God is the saviour of all mankind especially of the believer" should be understood to mean:
"God is the saviour of the believer especially of the believer"? doh!
QuoteGod is the saviour of all mankind especially of the believer
God is the saviour of all mankind that is of the believers regardless of race and country.
God is the saviour of all mankind meaning of the believers regardless of race and country.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2009, 06:20:38 PM
Legoman look out your window now. See that neighbor in that lava-red t-shirt? That's me. :laughing7:
:cloud9: The one with the matches in their hand? rofl :grin:
Quote from: Tony N on March 13, 2009, 07:26:25 PM
"God is the saviour of all mankind especially of the believer" should be understood to mean:
"God is the saviour of the believer especially of the believer"? doh!
God in general is the saviour of all mankind (not that he will save them, but he is their saviour if they would believe) and of course the "especially of believers" believe so they will be saved.
Well at least its half right - God will save the believers. I'm pretty sure there will be no disbelievers when everyone's knee bows and confess that Jesus is Lord.
Quote from: legoman on March 13, 2009, 08:02:25 PM
Well at least its half right - God will save the believers.
Quarter right because you are only half right too.
To many believers He will say "I have never knew you" before they feel the big
boot sandal. :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2009, 08:07:19 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 13, 2009, 08:02:25 PM
Well at least its half right - God will save the believers.
Quarter right because you are only half right too.
To many believers He will say "I have never knew you" before they feel the big boot sandal. :laughing7:
LOL quite right.
That's one thing I've wondered on: what is the sequence here.
When are the goats seperated from the sheep ie. "I never knew you" and when does every knee bow and all nations worship?
I'm guessing its like this:
- judgement (GWT)
- seperation of goats
- lake of fire experience
- judgement makes the people righteous
- every knee bows and every tongue confesses
But I suppose every knee bowing and tongue confessing could happen first.
Any scripture showing what the order is here?
Legoman
No scripture but just a little logic.
Don't you think people will try all kinda things, including kneeling, to avoid LoF?
But that's likely only outward.
He doesn't accept that. So into the LoF.
I think if you haven't kneeled during this life you get your chance after LoF.
As a matter of fact I think 'your' LoF ends when you can kneel 'inward'
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2009, 08:59:25 PM
No scripture but just a little logic.
Don't you think people will try all kinda things, including kneeling, to avoid LoF?
But that's likely only outward.
He doesn't accept that. So into the LoF.
I think if you haven't kneeled during this life you get your chance after LoF.
As a matter of fact I think 'your' LoF ends when you can kneel 'inward'
Agreed, thats kind of the way I thought to. Your LoF experience ends when you willingly (not forced) accept Christ.
I was wondering if there were any scriptures that confirm this.
Do we really need commentary for some verses? :icon_flower:
Gn 1:31 And seeing is the Elohim all that He had made, and, behold, it is very good. And coming is it to be evening and coming to be morning, the sixth day.
Just as the old Calvinist song goes:
He doesn't have the whole world, in His hands
He doesn't have the whole world, in His hands
He doesn't have the whole world, in His hands
He doesn't have the whole world,, in His hands
Nope He gave that task to Atlas :laughing7:
Quote from: martincisneros on March 14, 2009, 12:58:43 AM
Just as the old Calvinist song goes:
He doesn't have the whole world, in His hands
He doesn't have the whole world, in His hands
He doesn't have the whole world, in His hands
He doesn't have the whole world,, in His hands
:laughing7: :laugh: :pointlaugh:
Hey Martin... was it the same "calvinist" that wrote the famous...
Jesus loves a-few this I know, for the bible tells me so... :dunno:
...willieH :happygrin:
Hey Bill, Ya Old Bow wow...good to see ya Back again Bud, still thinking of ya.... :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Quote from: martincisneros on March 14, 2009, 12:58:43 AM
Just as the old Calvinist song goes:
He doesn't have the whole world, in His hands
He doesn't have the whole world, in His hands
He doesn't have the whole world, in His hands
He doesn't have the whole world,, in His hands
Nah Bro, ya cant go teaching that!..
Tis the whole world SET in their HEARTS,just blinded for Now :icon_flower:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 14, 2009, 01:02:13 AM
Nope He gave that task to Atlas :laughing7:
So, I can put it down now?
Quote from: willieH on March 14, 2009, 01:21:30 AM
:laughing7: :laugh: :pointlaugh:
Hey Martin... was it the same "calvinist" that wrote the famous...
Jesus loves a-few this I know, for the bible tells me so... :dunno:
...willieH :happygrin:
Probably. Remember this Calvinist standard? (http://www.higherpraise.com/lyrics/woah/o/Oh_the_Blood_of_Jesus.htm)
Oh the Blood of Jesus
Oh the Blood of Jesus
It cleanses
Sometimes no
Disclaimer: I love the original song at the link. For anyone new to "me," I'm just spoofing about the traditional endless separation garbage. No irreverence intended except to the Augustinian heresy of endless separation from God.
Quote from: Taffy on March 14, 2009, 01:24:16 AM
Hey Bill, Ya Old Bow wow...good to see ya Back again Bud, still thinking of ya.... :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower: :icon_flower:
As do I think of your bro, and keep you in my prayers... :mpardon:
I am halfway through my radiation treatment... (3 more weeks)
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on March 14, 2009, 02:54:31 AM
Quote from: Taffy on March 14, 2009, 01:24:16 AM
Hey Bill, Ya Old Bow wow...good to see ya Back again Bud, still thinking of ya.... :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower: :icon_flower:
As do I think of your bro, and keep you in my prayers... :mpardon:
I am halfway through my radiation treatment... (3 more weeks)
...willieH :cloud9:
Hang Tough In Him Bro..Know the treatment, as do I understand Chemo..go there but fortnightly, ... :icon_flower: