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Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation => Arguments Against Universal Salvation => Topic started by: eaglesway on July 23, 2013, 05:27:58 PM

Title: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: eaglesway on July 23, 2013, 05:27:58 PM
Biblical Universalism

When the word "universalism" is mentioned among Christians it usually brings a shudder. The first thought is that it means "every way leads to God and Jesus is not necessary to salvation".

Jesus said, "If I am lifted up I will draw all men unto me". Notice the word all, "I will draw all men unto me".

These words define the title and subject matter of this book, "Biblical Universalism". It is not, "all ways lead to God", it is that God will draw all mankind into Jesus, who is lifted up as the example and fountainhead of perfect love.

The apostle Paul said, (1 Timothy 2:3-6) "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

There is that word again.... "all".

Jesus said it. Paul said it.

How can these two words, "one" and "all" come together in a sound biblical doctrine that does not ignore the scriptures?

If I could make a suggestion to the reader it would be to read this as a book of possibilities. It is not my desire or intention to indoctrinate anyone in a new systematic theology. Whatever your current persuasion, I am sure it has the merit of your careful consideration or you would not hold it. However, it is always possible that we have missed something here or there. We are not any of us all right about everything- certainly not I.

My opinions carry the conviction of my own beliefs, but are expressed here for your consideration, not your indoctrination. In this study you will read many  verses you do not hear taught in Sunday school or seminaries- because they are verses that cannot be explained by the traditions of most orthodox and  institutional churches- so they are ignored.

In his letter to the Ephesians Paul said,

(Ephesians 1:9-11) He(the Father) made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He(Father) purposed in Him(Jesus) with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up(anakephalaioo- gathering together into one-kjv) of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him(Jesus) also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His(the Father's) purpose who works all things after the counsel of His(the Father's) will....

Here we have "one" and "all" together again. We will see this frequently in the coming pages, and hopefully ask, "How can this be?" It is clear to me that God's "kind intention" is to gather all into Christ and that He causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will.

It is written....

Romans 11:32-36  For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

"From Him and through Him and to Him are all things'?

Most of us have no problem with from Him and through Him, but all things going back to Him? This is not what most Christians believe or teach- but Christians disagree on many things. How are we to know which things we should accept and which things may be religious tradition, philosophy and mythology? Based on the scriptures there may be room to question some of what we have been taught. Every great reformation of the Christian faith has been based on just this kind of questioning.


Jesus and Paul both use the word all. This word, "all", can be very troublesome. Does it really mean all? And if all, how?


Consider the possibility presented in 1 Timothy 2....."This is good and acceptable to God our Savior who desires all men to be saved....."


If you could leave it there with God desiring all men to be saved but being unwilling(schizophrenic) to do so, or, unable to do so(impotent)- it would be just fine to ignore these possibilities. We have been told, God desires that all men be saved but He will not violate our free will.

Yet, Philippians 2:10 says that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, whether in heaven or in earth or under the earth, that Jesus Christ is Lord..."

We have been told that after death everyone who did not bow their knee to Jesus in life will be forced to bow just before they are thrown into the lake of fire. Would God, who will let us suffer forever rather than violate our free will,  then force a meaningless submission upon the great portion of His creation, just before He torments them forever? How does this integrate with Ephesians 1:9-11, where we are told that God's plan is His "kind intention....the summing up of all things in Christ, whether things in heaven or in earth".

The word, "kind intention is "eudokia"- good will or good desire. "Eu" is the same root as "euagellion"- good(eu) news(agellion- proclamation).

Upon the birth of Jesus the angels proclaimed to the shepherds "good news of glad tidings to all men."

That most men will be tormented forever or be destroyed in hell does not sound like good news to me. It does not sound like "good will(eudokia) towards men". It does not sound like a "kind intention" at all. I believe the scriptures that show a distinctly different view about what "hell" is and how long it lasts- a view that has been obscured by errors in translation and the traditions of career religionists.

Many are satisfied that their God, "who created all things" and "causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will", would torment the larger part of His created beings forever, even though He "desires that all men be saved." Yet many are not so satisfied with this view of God. I never was. After much reading and study and prayer, I was delighted to find that this view of God was not confirmed by the scriptures. When I would ask, as a young believer, "How could this be so?"- I was told not to question God, but rather to just believe what I was being told. However, I discovered instead that it is not "faith" to suspend reason if the scriptures testify in agreement with our reasoning. God is not threatened by an honest question, even if religious institutions are.

Think about it. God desires something(the salvation of all), but He set up a rule that He cannot do what He desires because His desire to save all is less important than our freedom to be evil, rebellious, self-centered sinners. But then He burns us forever for it. This what has been taught in most churches for 1500 years- but is it scriptural? Is it the whole truth? Does it sound like God? Is this why Jesus died? Was His sacrifice of so little effect?


Jesus, the Logos("expressed thought" of God, or "word"), proclaims the very same desire as His Father(the salvation of all), and believes it is possible, saying "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me." On the cross as He suffers He prays, "Father forgive them they do not know what they are doing."

Peter, preaching the good news(gospel) in Jerusalem in the first days after Pentecost says,

Acts 3:17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Ehp 1:10- An administration suitable to the fulness of times, the "gathering together into one of all things" in Christ......Acts 3:21- the period of the restoration of all things."  What were these men speaking of?

Let's take a closer look.


Chapter 2

ALL

Strong's dictionary defines the word "pas"(all, all men, everything, all things) as follows:
pas: all, every   
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective -everything
Transliteration:pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Definition: all, the whole, every kind of.

In Ephesians chapter one Paul speaks of the plan of God as "the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention, an administration suitable to the fulllness of times, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ,whether things in earth or things in heaven." He then speaks of God as being the one who "causes all things to work together according to the counsel of His will." If God has such a administration, I want to know about it.

We ought to at least ask the question, "What does "all" mean in these verses?" and then look into the scriptures for the answer.

In Colossians 1:15-21 Paul says,
He (Jesus)is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything(pas-all things). For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him(Jesus), and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself(the Father), having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Paul says here that "all things" will be reconciled back to God through the blood of Jesus' cross.

What does all mean to Paul?

Paul's "all things" reconciled are the same "all things" created, the same "all things" over which Christ is preeminent, the same "all things" that are held together by His word.

The writer of the epistle to the Hebrews says, "By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the word of God", and "He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of His nature and all things hold together by the power of His word". There is nothing God did not create through Jesus, the Logos. "In the beginning was the word(logos) and the word was God and the word was with God.......all things were made through Him and nothing that was made was made without Him." John's gospel says all things were created through Jesus. Paul says all things will be reconciled back to God through Jesus- everything that was ever created gathered into one in Christ.

For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He can have mercy on All.........For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL things."

Let's look at that troublesome little word, "all"- a bit more closely. The word "all" is frequently rendered(in various places throughout the scriptures) as "all things"; "everything"; "all men"; "everyone". In the Greek it is the word "pas".

It is a simple word- it means, "Everything without exception". For instance, if I say "all figs grow on trees", I am speaking of every fig there is or ever was. If I say, "all the figs in the basket"-or "all the figs in Naples". I am speaking of a particular subset of all the figs in existence- but still including every single fig in the subset.

Jesus, the apostle John and the apostle Paul make no such sub-set in any of the verses we have looked at so far. In fact, in his letter to the Colossians Paul is very clear about the parameters of "all". He lists those parameters  as inclusive of:

ALL that was created through Christ,

ALL over which He is preeminent,

ALL things that hold together in Him and further,

ALL that is in heaven and on earth. In Paul's gospel this seems to include everyone who ever was, is or will be- all reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus' cross.

Phillipians 2:10 "For this reason (the cross) God has highly exalted Him and given Him the name above Christ every (pas) name that at the name of Jesus every(pas) knee shall bow and every(pas) tongue shall confess, whether in heaven, or on earth or under the earth, that Jesus is Lord to the the glory of God, even the Father".

This is not "all ways lead to God". This is all things will be reconciled to God through the cross of Jesus Christ..... "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me".

We have been told that just before God throws all the sinners into hell forever He will force them to bow down and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, but that creates a biblical dilemma.

Paul said, "If any man confess with his mouth Jesus as Lord and believes in his heart that God raised Him from the dead he shall be saved"(Romans 10).

Surely all these people who are confessing Jesus Christ is Lord "to the glory of the Father", will definitely at that time believe God has raised Him from the dead- so why then will they not be saved? What if they are bowing down and confessing, not because God is forcing a pre-torment act of submission, but rather because they all eventually are, in His presence, overwhelmed by the glory of His grace and yield to it? The only thing that has saved anyone who claims to be a Christian is the grace of God, received when they believed that Jesus is Lord and that He died to pay for their sins and was raised from the dead by God the Father.

What work did anyone do in that believing that qualified them to be saved. "For by grace you were saved through faith and that not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God lest any man should boast".

John says, in 1 John 2:1-2,

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an  Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

"but also for those of the whole(holou) world"

Strong's dictionary gives us a definition for holou:

A primary word; "whole" or "all", i.e. Complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb -- all, altogether, every whit, + throughout, whole.

The distinction is clear, not only for ours, but for all who live in this world.

But of course there is a fly in the ointment.

If Jesus died for our sins(who believe) and not only ours, but also for the sins of the whole world, what about hell?

In  future chapters we will begin to look at the questions surrounding hell. Does a literal hell exist? If so what exactly is it? Is it outer darkness or is it the lake of fire? Does it last forever and who is in it? Did God create the universe and populate it with worlds and stars and angels and creatures and mankind and then predestine that most of those angels and people would be in torment forever?

If so, how is the word of God that we have received through Peter, Paul and John, and most of all through Jesus Christ Himself – true?

The secret to these mysteries may be found in one of the verses with which we started this chapter,

Ephesians 1:9-12 In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Hypothesis: If God had predestined ages for an administration (plan) that would eventually be fulfilled by the gathering together into one of all things in heaven, on earth and under the earth-  literally every being who ever lived, would He tell us about it? Paul answers, "Yes, but it is a mystery." Jesus says, "Yes, but I will speak in parables, to obscure mysteries hidden from the foundation of the world.

John says, in Revelation 5:13, "Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

Doesn't Revelations 5:13  sounds remarkably like the fulfillment of Phillipians 2:10?

"For this reason God has highly exalted Him and given Him the name above every name that at the name of Jesus Christ, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess , whether in heaven, or on earth, or under the earth, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father".


Now let's begin to look a little more closely at the elephant in the room, the doctrine of eternal torment.
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: jbertonbounds on July 23, 2013, 05:47:27 PM
Who wrote the book?
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: marie glen on July 23, 2013, 06:16:41 PM
AMEN!! I especially agree with

QUOTE - "When the word "universalism" is mentioned among Christians it usually brings a shudder. The first thought is that it means "every way leads to God and Jesus is not necessary to salvation".

Jesus said, "If I am lifted up I will draw all men unto me". Notice the word all, "I will draw all men unto me".

These words define the title and subject matter of this book, "Biblical Universalism". It is not, "all ways lead to God", it is that God will draw all mankind into Jesus, who is lifted up as the example and fountainhead of perfect love." /QUOTE

I've been studying Romans chapter five and more than once says "much more so" comparing Adam to Christ.. or rather Christ to Adam.. and the results of each.. which I want to do a post on.. hopefully soon.. in between caring for these little ones...

good day.. all..
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: eaglesway on July 23, 2013, 07:09:54 PM
This is the first two chapters of my book on UR that I hav been working on for awhile now.
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: JulieTang84 on July 23, 2013, 07:17:42 PM
It is so amazing to me how the Bible is written. I believe we are all on a Spiritual journey home to God. Could be that most don't even know it and a great portion of those that thank they do, have a very onesided view of the journey.

However, I have always taken Spirituallity with enlightement. Jesus said to be filled with light.

There are two amazing vs of Paul that, like the ones already given, are impossible to refute.

These just make my heart melt  :HeartThrob:

I Tim. 4:9-10
"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

and of course this one.....

1Cr 3:11. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
1Cr 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
1Cr 3:14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but ******* yet will be saved ******* —even though only as one escaping through the flames.

We cannot wonder why the Eternal Punishers cannot see this, they just have yet to recieve the eyes to see. Rather, we must treat them with kindness and respect, just like we would someone severly handicapped. Because, Spiritually handicapped that they are and are so for a reason.

But is this not what the jouney is all about, to find the treasure and share it with love  :HeartThrob:

Gosh I hope I did not hijack this thread......

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: JulieTang84 on July 23, 2013, 07:19:14 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 23, 2013, 07:09:54 PM
This is the first two chapters of my book on UR that I hav been working on for awhile now.

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:   Wow, it is going to be awesome!!!!!

Thanks for sharing with us

Love Julie
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: jbertonbounds on July 23, 2013, 09:48:18 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 23, 2013, 07:09:54 PM
This is the first two chapters of my book on UR that I hav been working on for awhile now.

Cool! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: jbertonbounds on July 23, 2013, 09:49:45 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on July 23, 2013, 07:17:42 PM

But is this not what the jouney is all about, to find the treasure and share it with love  :HeartThrob:



Absolutely!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: micah7:9 on July 24, 2013, 02:18:39 AM
Ew,I found your draft great and well said. Full of truth that you won't hear or read from orthodox christianity. But you know me, the free will got me and the word forced, if you can massage that word to offer LOVE, well. You nailed it for me. :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :banana: :gimmefive: :Peace2:
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: eaglesway on July 24, 2013, 02:24:11 AM
Please send me the excerpt you are speaking of in PM and I will review it. Thats what I'm looking for.
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: jabcat on July 24, 2013, 02:41:39 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 24, 2013, 02:24:11 AM
Please send me the excerpt you are speaking of in PM and I will review it. Thats what I'm looking for.

I think you're just saying "that's what people say", not necessarily summarily advocating an unlimited "free will".   :2c:

"We have been told, God desires that all men be saved but He will not violate our free will.

Yet, Philippians 2:10 says that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, whether in heaven or in earth or under the earth, that Jesus Christ is Lord..."

We have been told that after death everyone who did not bow their knee to Jesus in life will be forced to bow just before they are thrown into the lake of fire. Would God, who will let us suffer forever rather than violate our free will.."
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: eaglesway on July 24, 2013, 03:05:59 AM
Exactly. Actually, I am not advocating anything there, through out the book I use all the various reasoning for ET/against UR from every spectrum from Arminian to Calvinist, from Catholic to Protestant, etc.

When I was a young believer, in Pentecostal circles, I heard mostly justifications for hell based on free will, so in the referenced comment I am actually making the point.. against absolute free will......."If God values our free will so much- why force us to bow down just before He puts us in eternal torment?"

I will look at how I can make that clearer, thanx to yall :o)
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: marie glen on July 24, 2013, 03:43:29 PM
Quote from: jabcat on July 24, 2013, 02:41:39 AM


We have been told that after death everyone who did not bow their knee to Jesus in life will be forced to bow just before they are thrown into the lake of fire....


It's incredible that anyone would believe that!!! (what blasphemy! of His diadem purity of Goodness)
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: ded2daworld on July 24, 2013, 04:33:48 PM
Good job EW! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: eaglesway on July 25, 2013, 05:32:53 AM
Quote from: marie glen on July 23, 2013, 06:16:41 PM
AMEN!! I especially agree with

QUOTE - "When the word "universalism" is mentioned among Christians it usually brings a shudder. The first thought is that it means "every way leads to God and Jesus is not necessary to salvation".

Jesus said, "If I am lifted up I will draw all men unto me". Notice the word all, "I will draw all men unto me".

These words define the title and subject matter of this book, "Biblical Universalism". It is not, "all ways lead to God", it is that God will draw all mankind into Jesus, who is lifted up as the example and fountainhead of perfect love." /QUOTE

I've been studying Romans chapter five and more than once says "much more so" comparing Adam to Christ.. or rather Christ to Adam.. and the results of each.. which I want to do a post on.. hopefully soon.. in between caring for these little ones...

good day.. all..

Yes, amen.....so much more so :o)
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: eaglesway on July 25, 2013, 07:18:19 AM
Chapter three

I am told that I misunderstand God's "kind intention". His plan to, through an administration suitable to the fulness of time, gather everything in one in Christ. I am told that only those people who believe in Jesus as Messiah and Lord in this life will be gathered and that "all" means only all those who are "believers".

I think in the last chapter we saw compelling evidence that a reasonable honest mind could accept that all means all, even as Paul wrote Timothy, his beloved disciple, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour who desires all men to be saved...", but lets look at some further evidence.

1 Corinthians 15:21-28

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished(nullified) is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Here we see again that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father", but why? Not for the purpose of an arbitrary forced acknowledgement before torment, but rather so that God can be "ALL IN ALL!"

If you recall the verses in Romans 11:32-36

Romans 11:32-36  For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

If Christ must reign until every adversary is subjected, even as you and I "were once adversaries hostile in mind"(Colossians 1:22)- then clearly Paul is here, again teaching that when the adversaries have been gathered into one in Christ they will be returned to the Father so that God may be ALL IN ALL - inclusive of these adversaries.

This supports the idea that Phillipians 2:10(every knee shall bow....) is not describing the forced submission of the wicked before their torment or destruction, but rather the eventual capitulation of all souls to His Lordship and love- even as we who believe capitulated at some point ourselves.

This troublesome all word is used repeatedly – and in 1 Corinthians 15:28 emphatically – God will be everything in everyone- He will fill the whole creation.

Paul reiterates this in Romans chapter 8:23.

Romans 8:18-23 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

These verses open many questions, but all I want to highlight here, in relation to the discussion of the restoration of all things, is that Paul again says that all, expressed here as the whole creation, will be set free into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Apparently our redemption plays a part in this universal restoration, because the whole creation, along with us, groans with the desire to be set free from futility.

Perhaps nothing is more commonly expressed among all people than the frustrations of living in this finite existence. Limited by time and space we groan to be immortal and free and we express it in so many ways. When God has finished His administration suitable to the fulness of times, it shall be so.

According to Paul in 1 Cor 15:25, the last enemy to be nullified is death. If death is abolished, there can remain only life. If the "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelations 2:11;20:6;20:14 and 21:8 is a place of eternal torment(in 20:14 and 21:8 it is specifically called the second death)- then how can death ever be abolished or God become all in all- as Paul declares He will in 1 Corinthians 15:28?

Is Paul confused and in need of instruction from todays divided and confused Christian theology? How will everything in heaven, on earth and under the earth praise God and the Lamb, as John prophecies in Revelation 5:13 if billions are in torment forever in the lake of fire, which is the second death? If they are tormented forever in it, how is it ever nullified, or if you prefer the KJV, destroyed.

It seems to me that the lake of fire cannot be "hell". It is never called hell in the scriptures, by the way. The lake of fire must be something else. For instance- notice this.......

Revelation 14:9,10 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

In Revelations 20:10 it says the devil and his angels are thrown into the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

Here in Rev14 above it says those who worship the beast will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of God and His holy angels.

Is hell in heaven? I don't think so.
Notice this:

Genesis 19:24
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven....

If fire and brimstone come down from the Lord in heaven- however you perceive heaven as you read the scriptures, it seems clear that the lake of fire is not hell.

If those who are tormented in the lake of fire, whatever you perceive torment to be from the scripture, are tormented forever- in the presence of God and His holy angels- how shall God EVER BE ALL IN ALL. How can death EVER BE ABOLISHED. How can there EVER BE A TIME when, as it is written in Revelations 5:13, Every created thing in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them say,

"To Him who its on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

The word brimstone, in the Greek, is "theon", and as Andrew Jukes demonstrated in his wonderful study, "The Restitution Of All Things" it means something like god-fire. It is a word that was used of the fires used to purify vessels used in the service of the deities in pagan temples.

Whatever you might conceive the lake of fire to be, whether you are literalist or not, it is difficult to maintain that hell is the lake of fire, because the lake of fire is in the presence of God, and the presence of God is where we will be as well.

What if the lake of fire is for correction? Our God is a consuming fire. John saw Jesus as having "eyes as flames of fire". The eye is the Lamp of the soul, according to Proverbs. All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do, according to Hebrews 4:12,13. God is light, and light consumes darkness and sometimes, tribulation purifies.

1 Peter 1:5-7  In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

If we are tried in the fire, in order to purge out the alloys of the carnal man that cling so fiercely to our souls- and we love Him and have seen Him, how much more shall the fire be needed to bring those who despise Him to their knees?

But Paul says it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance, and if our God is a consuming fire, and God is light and in Him is no darkness at all, and if indeed "God is love", what might this lake that burns with fire and brimstone be, because as I read the scriptures it cannot be hell- and after all,

"What exactly is Hell anyway and where does it come from?"
Title: Re: First two chapters "Biblical Universalism"
Post by: shawn on July 25, 2013, 04:06:53 PM
Thanks for sharing that was beautiful.