Fire and Brimstone

[Jerm]

Here's an ET argument I came across and was just curious as to how y'all would respond:

If fire and brimstone really were seen as symbols of divinity and corresponded with purification and purging, then why were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed by fire and brimstone?

How would you respond?

[Beloved Servant]

The answer lies right in your question.
God purged the land of their inequity.

[dboutwell]

Isn't it in Ezekiel 58 that tells about Sodom's restoration?

Debbie

[WhiteWings]

Isn't it in Ezekiel 58 that tells about Sodom's restoration?

Debbie

Yes the 5 cities will be restored (to even gretaer glory as before)

How would you respond?

That the fire isn't burning anymore. So if the cities reprsent the faith of the wicked, that faith would not be eternal.

[Tim B]

Isn't it in Ezekiel 58 that tells about Sodom's restoration?

Debbie

Yes the 5 cities will be restored (to even gretaer glory as before)

How would you respond?

That the fire isn't burning anymore. So if the cities reprsent the faith of the wicked, that faith would not be eternal.

I've heard that Sodom's restoration does not actually speak of the residents of Sodom, but those that had been held captive by Sodom, or something like that. So it's not really Sodom being restored. Do you know anything about this?

[jabcat]

Hi Tim.  Though that could be the case, it sounds like some of the contortions we often go through to try to prove the theological points which we already believe;  you know, "don't confuse me with the facts.  I've already got my mind made up".  As you probably know, ET'ers do that a lot ("all" only means...some, etc.), and I believe most of us do that as well, to one degree or another...as suits our already established belief systems.

It would be interesting to know exactly what that scripture means, what all it entails.  I've questioned it in my own mind as well.  Does it mean the cities and only a certain group of inhabitants?  Everyone that lived there at the time?  Only "new Jerusalem" folks?   :dontknow:  I personally believe it means the individuals that were there at the time, but now in their redeemed, immortal bodies; but I don't have a lot of specific hard evidence on which to base that.   REALLY cleansed, as it were  :thumbsup:.

I'll watch for info and if have some time tonight may explore it a bit myself.  Will have to be careful though, because eveyone's got their own opinions and biases.

[Beloved Servant]

Why can't I find Ezekiel 58?

[Tim B]

Why can't I find Ezekiel 58?

Hey Beloved Servant, it's because it's not actually Ezekiel 58, but Ezekial 16:48-58:

Ezekiel 16:48-58 (Amplified Bible)

48As I live, says the Lord God, Sodom your sister has not done, she nor her daughters, as you have done, you and your daughters.

    49Behold, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: pride, overabundance of food, prosperous ease, and idleness were hers and her daughters'; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

    50And they were haughty and committed abominable offenses before Me; therefore I removed them when I saw it and I saw fit.(A)

    51Neither has Samaria committed half of your sins, but you have multiplied your [idolatrous] abominations more than they and have seemed to justify your sisters [Samaria and Sodom] in all their wickedness by all the abominable things which you have done--you even make them appear righteous in comparison with you.

    52Take upon you and bear your own shame and disgrace [in your punishment], you also who called in question and judged your sisters, for you have virtually absolved them by your sins in which you behaved more abominably than they; they are more right than you. Yes, be ashamed and confounded and bear your shame and disgrace, you also, for you have seemed to justify your sisters and make them appear righteous.

    53I will restore them again from their captivity, restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in the midst of them [in the day of the Lord],(B)

    54That you [Judah], amid your shame and disgrace, may be compelled to recognize your wickedness and be thoroughly ashamed and confounded at all you have done, becoming [converted and bringing] consolation and comfort to [your sisters.]

    55And your sisters, Sodom and her daughters shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate; then you and your daughters shall return to your former estate.

    56For was your sister Sodom not mentioned by you [except] as a byword in the day of your pride,

    57Before your own wickedness was uncovered? Now you have become like her, an object of reproach and a byword for the daughters of Syria and of Edom and for all who are round about them and for the daughters of the Philistines--those round about who despise you.

    58You bear the penalty of your lewdness and your [idolatrous] abominations, says the Lord.

[Tim B]

Hi Tim.  Though that could be the case, it sounds like some of the contortions we often go through to try to prove the theological points which we already believe;  you know, "don't confuse me with the facts.  I've already got my mind made up".  As you probably know, ET'ers do that a lot ("all" only means...some, etc.), and I believe most of us do that as well, to one degree or another...as suits our already established belief systems.

It would be interesting to know exactly what that scripture means, what all it entails.  I've questioned it in my own mind as well.  Does it mean the cities and only a certain group of inhabitants?  Everyone that lived there at the time?  Only "new Jerusalem" folks?   :dontknow:  I personally believe it means the individuals that were there at the time, but now in their redeemed, immortal bodies; but I don't have a lot of specific hard evidence on which to base that.   REALLY cleansed, as it were  :thumbsup:.

I'll watch for info and if have some time tonight may explore it a bit myself.  Will have to be careful though, because eveyone's got their own opinions and biases.

Thanks! If you find any information, that'd be cool!  :bigGrin:

[Beloved Servant]

Thank you Sir.

[Jerm]

Great posts guys.  My response would have been somewhere along the lines of what Beloved Servant said at the beginning (Kudos to you by the way  :thumbsup:)  Whatever the circumstances, fire and brimstone did in fact purge and purify.  The next question is then what happens after that?  Well, as many of y'all have pointed out, Scripture itself testifies to the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah will one day be restored.  So, this means that although fire and brimstone is an intense means of purification, it does not necessarily mean that the thing (or things) purified by it are destroyed. 

[WhiteWings]

Isn't it in Ezekiel 58 that tells about Sodom's restoration?

Debbie

Yes the 5 cities will be restored (to even gretaer glory as before)

How would you respond?

That the fire isn't burning anymore. So if the cities reprsent the faith of the wicked, that faith would not be eternal.

I've heard that Sodom's restoration does not actually speak of the residents of Sodom, but those that had been held captive by Sodom, or something like that. So it's not really Sodom being restored. Do you know anything about this?

Tim,
If that is the case, the whole story is about the city and doesn't say anything about the wicked in it.

Plus wasn't there a dialog like: Will you spare the city if there are 50....40...5 good people?
So I think the captives, if there where any, where as bad as the rest....

[sparrow]

So what will Sodom and Gomorrah in the restored state, look like?

[jabcat]

That's what I'm after, Sparrow.  The scriptures actually say "to its former state".   :dontknow:  Same people, same people "regenerated", new people?  I don't know.

[WhiteWings]

Sparrow,

A place birds love.
Serious now. It's always called Sodom and Gomorrah but that's wrong. It are actually 5 cities. 2 large and 3 small.
They are even mentioned in Egyptian books because they traded tar and stuff with the Egyptians.
The verses and the names of the cities indicate it was a beautiful area with grass etc. Now it's just a wasteland.
Sodom and Gomorrah are names given after the destruction. It means something like "destroyed/burned heap"
I have to look that up when I'm at home.

So the former state perhaps is that 'nature returns'?

[Beloved Servant]

Sodom: their secret; their cement
Gomorrah: rebellious people
Here is a very good study on the topic:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW11.htm

[sparrow]

Sparrow,

A place birds love.
Serious now. It's always called Sodom and Gomorrah but that's wrong. It are actually 5 cities. 2 large and 3 small.
They are even mentioned in Egyptian books because they traded tar and stuff with the Egyptians.
The verses and the names of the cities indicate it was a beautiful area with grass etc. Now it's just a wasteland.
Sodom and Gomorrah are names given after the destruction. It means something like "destroyed/burned heap"
I have to look that up when I'm at home.

So the former state perhaps is that 'nature returns'?

oh really? I didnt know that. How interesting.
So basically, these places which are now desolate will be renewed, restored.. just as we human beings are in the process of being renewed/restored.

[jabcat]

If it's about "the places", then maybe it will be whatever renewed/regenerated immortals God chooses to live there.  If that's the case, could be any of us then!

[Beloved Servant]

I know Jab, I know.

[WhiteWings]

Sparrow,

A place birds love.
Serious now. It's always called Sodom and Gomorrah but that's wrong. It are actually 5 cities. 2 large and 3 small.
They are even mentioned in Egyptian books because they traded tar and stuff with the Egyptians.
The verses and the names of the cities indicate it was a beautiful area with grass etc. Now it's just a wasteland.
Sodom and Gomorrah are names given after the destruction. It means something like "destroyed/burned heap"
I have to look that up when I'm at home.

So the former state perhaps is that 'nature returns'?

oh really? I didnt know that. How interesting.
So basically, these places which are now desolate will be renewed, restored.. just as we human beings are in the process of being renewed/restored.

It seems even the brimstone can be found there today. Many marble sized chunks of almost pure brimstone.
Some claim the cities are in the dead sea now. The mentioned tar pits exploded. etc etc. That's of course extra Biblical but tends to prove that the Bible story/events did really happen.

[Beloved Servant]

It all happened.
yea, even the dinosaurs!
Now, that takes WISDOM!

[WhiteWings]

?

[Cardinal]

So what will Sodom and Gomorrah in the restored state, look like?

:cloud9: The glorified body/new earth (Sodom) and the mind of Christ/new heaven (Gomorrah)........Blessings.....

[dboutwell]

Why can't I find Ezekiel 58?

:mblush:   My bad...old age is creepin up on me...

Debbie :)

[WhiteWings]

Sparrow,

A place birds love.
Serious now. It's always called Sodom and Gomorrah but that's wrong. It are actually 5 cities. 2 large and 3 small.
They are even mentioned in Egyptian books because they traded tar and stuff with the Egyptians.
The verses and the names of the cities indicate it was a beautiful area with grass etc. Now it's just a wasteland.
Sodom and Gomorrah are names given after the destruction. It means something like "destroyed/burned heap"
I have to look that up when I'm at home.

So the former state perhaps is that 'nature returns'?

oh really? I didnt know that. How interesting.
So basically, these places which are now desolate will be renewed, restored.. just as we human beings are in the process of being renewed/restored.

Sparrow,

The names + meaning of the 5 cities.

Gomorrah = "submersion" 1) the twin-city in evil with Sodom, both destroyed in judgment by God with fire from heaven 1a) of iniquity (fig.)
=> Archelogist have evidence/hints that this city is (submerged=Gomorrah) in the Dead sea


Sodom = "burning" 1) a Canaanite city, usually paired with Gomorrah, located in the area of the Dead Sea and the Jordan river; both cities destroyed by God in judgment
=> Burning... clear enough I think :-)

Admah = "red earth" 1) city in the Siddim valley
=> Same word as in the creation account. Usally very fertily soil.

Zeboim or Zeboiim = "gazelles" 1) one of the 5 cities in the plain which included Sodom and Gomorrah
=> No gazelles on wasteland...

Lasha = "fissure" 1) a place in the southeast of Palestine at the limit of the Canaanites territory, near Sodom and Gomorrah
Origin:  from an unused root thought to mean to break through;; n pr loc
=> earthquake.