By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.' Isaiah 45:23
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, Phil. 2:10; no one is able to say Jesus [is] Lord, except IN the Holy Spirit. I Cor. 12:3
Exactly how does this happen if people are eternally dead?
That's easy to answer James.
They confess/admit that Jesus is the lord. Then they are kicked in hell (ET view) or are destroyed (ED view).
However there is a slight problem.
Confession is always used in the Bible as true sincere confession from the heart. Not some lies to escape judgement.
So all sincery confess. Jesus had asomething to say about that event:
KJVJoh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
ETs answer that with "Bad luck. To late. After death is judgement. Fry!" I don't know how EDs view this but logicly it follows they hold teh ET view otherwise ED wouldn't be true.
So what we need is proof that the salvation offer still stands after death...
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 08:21:45 PM
That's easy to answer James.
They confess/admit that Jesus is the lord. Then they are kicked in hell (ET view) or are destroyed (ED view).
No, no, that's one I was anticipating. I wondered if someone would really say that.
So in that scenario, the Pure, Holy Spirit moves on all the unsaved (90-95%) of humanity that God ever created. Convicts their hearts of their need for Jesus. Every one of them responds to the Holy Spirit's conviction, they are under the Pure Spirit's influence, and they open their hearts and confess Jesus as their Lord/Master.
[Edit - can only confess Jesus IN [literal] the Holy Spirit]. Then God steps in, grabs them by the neck, and throws them into a literal, burning fire. And that's after He goes to the trouble of raising them from the dead first, as well as sending the spirit He gave them (and that returned to Him upon death [Ecclesiastes]) back to them - so all the above could happen.
So some believe that's a reasonable view in light of the whole of scripture?
God just animates them to amuse himself. :happy3:
Hi jabcat - my most honest answer is, "I don't know how exactly it works."
I think it's possible that every knee bows after the wicked are destroyed. Someone may correct me if there is a verse that makes it clear that cannot be the case; but if the wicked have ceased to exist, they have no state of being either in heaven, on earth nor under the earth.
Another passage that may apply to this is found in Matthew 27. Though some say "Lord, Lord," and claim they did deeds in Jesus' name, Jesus instead declares them evildoers and says He never knew them. So even if your belief is that this is a different judgment somehow than eternal life/destruction, we still see people confessing Jesus is Lord that - according to Jesus - does not come from being in the Holy Spirit, no?
I'm not firmly set on either of those; I leave them open for the Holy Spirit to lead me. I'm not one to argue just to be right, or to try to prove someone else wrong. There are about 3 universal points/verses that do give me pause and I have no firm answer for; but they are not enough in the face of the many, many more verses that I think point to eternal destruction to convince me US is Truth.
Almost right Paul.
"Glorify" is the word!
One more quick thought (I didn't want to edit if someone was already replying) - it is my belief that some people so hate the Light that even seeing the Light or being in His presence is so painful to them, that they would rather be destroyed than to be forced into His presence forevermore.
Acknowledging who He is and kneeling before Him doesn't necessarily change that. It's nearly impossible for us to imagine anyone desiring destruction instead of that kind of agape Love ... and yet we know angels in His very presence left their place.
So, again, I think it's possible that though all recognize He IS our Lord and God, that doesn't necessarily follow that all will desire to enter His presence forevermore, and for these destruction is merciful.
:2c:
Quote from: jabcat on August 12, 2010, 08:37:18 PMSo some believe that's a reasonable view in light of the whole of scripture?
Of course I can't speak for all ET's but yes from my understanding that's their view.
I remember a passage from a ET NDE.
Jesus walks through hell with the writer of the book. All people had a chest plate with their sin on it. They saw a young man in boiling oil that had as a sin "Normal".
Meaning no real sins except being an atheist. He repented to Jesus. He begged. Jesus felt sad and said: "I believe you but's to late now."
Quote from: LS on August 12, 2010, 08:49:03 PMThere are about 3 universal points/verses that do give me pause and I have no firm answer for; but they are not enough in the face of the many, many more verses that I think point to eternal destruction to convince me US is Truth.
Hi LS,
I would like it if you started a new thread with those verses. Or if there are to many, say, the 10 most powerful ED verses.
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw [helkou - DRAG] everyone to myself." John 12:32
"Then I will push them away". ????!!!
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 09:00:39 PM
Quote from: LS on August 12, 2010, 08:49:03 PMThere are about 3 universal points/verses that do give me pause and I have no firm answer for; but they are not enough in the face of the many, many more verses that I think point to eternal destruction to convince me US is Truth.
Hi LS,
I would like it if you started a new thread with those verses. Or if there are to many, say, the 10 most powerful ED verses.
I've been considering this before you asked - I'm not sure what forum would be appropriate? I honestly don't want to argue or debate - I know not everyone will hear them in the same way - but some people seem to have questions and the passages may give them more to prayerfully consider.
Quote from: LS on August 12, 2010, 09:36:38 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 09:00:39 PM
Quote from: LS on August 12, 2010, 08:49:03 PMThere are about 3 universal points/verses that do give me pause and I have no firm answer for; but they are not enough in the face of the many, many more verses that I think point to eternal destruction to convince me US is Truth.
Hi LS,
I would like it if you started a new thread with those verses. Or if there are to many, say, the 10 most powerful ED verses.
I've been considering this before you asked - I'm not sure what forum would be appropriate?
Tentmaker Discussion Forum > Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation > Arguments Against Universal Salvation (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?board=24.0)
QuoteI honestly don't want to argue or debate - I know not everyone will hear them in the same way
I understand. But OTOH it's hard to discuss anything without discussing... The mods hate food fights, so the thread will be closed before it reaches that point.
Needless to say you won't find many supporters for your view on this forum :winkgrin:
Quote- but some people seem to have questions and the passages may give them more to prayerfully consider.
The discussion will, obviously, focus of verses and interpretation. So all will benefit because being forced to look beneath the surface means study.
KJV2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Luk 20:38 and He is not a God of dead men, but of living, for all live to Him.' Let us start with
that truth, and then this truth, Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
I know there is much talk of spiritual death, but I know that Jesus DIED(dead) on the cross, not instead of
us, but for us. Rom 6:6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin; Gal 2:20 with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
So I believe I (hopefully you to) are dead and being judged, now. I believe that when a living soul dies, expires in the natural that when that soul is rasied again(resurrected) for the White Throne Judgement, than what state his heart was in, so shall he be judged. Ecc 11:3 If the thick clouds are full of rain, On the earth they empty themselves ; And if a tree doth fall in the south or to the north, The place where the tree falleth, there it is. There will be the Second death and the outcome of that will be Isa 45:23 By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.
It seems to me that man puts more stock and thought in his physical death and staying alive in this house of clay, which is dying, than his Quickening Spirit life through Christ that he is in To Day.
At least his is how I understand my life. Peace and Love Through Jesus.
micah, that blessed me ... thank you :thumbsup:
WhiteWings, all good points. It will take some time to put together, so I'll either be back later today, or this weekend.
:grouppray:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 12, 2010, 11:31:24 PMI know there is much talk of spiritual death, but I know that Jesus DIED(dead) on the cross,
I'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed. :mblush:
Quote from: jabcat on August 12, 2010, 09:09:31 PM
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw [helkou - DRAG] everyone to myself." John 12:32
"Then I will push them away". ????!!!
Can anyone reconcile this? Thanks, James.
Quote from: jabcat on August 12, 2010, 11:46:08 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 12, 2010, 09:09:31 PM
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw [helkou - DRAG] everyone to myself." John 12:32
"Then I will push them away". ????!!!
Can anyone reconcile this?
It could mean that all men will be drawn to him, some to love him others to hate him. :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 08:21:45 PM
That's easy to answer James.
They confess/admit that Jesus is the lord. Then they are kicked in hell (ET view) or are destroyed (ED view).
However there is a slight problem.
Confession is always used in the Bible as true sincere confession from the heart. Not some lies to escape judgement.
So all sincery confess. Jesus had asomething to say about that event:
KJVJoh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
ETs answer that with "Bad luck. To late. After death is judgement. Fry!" I don't know how EDs view this but logicly it follows they hold teh ET view otherwise ED wouldn't be true.
So what we need is proof that the salvation offer still stands after death...
Actually I seen an explanation that stated that the Greek word for bow meant to bend under the weight of. They believed it was symbolic. Even Satan and his demons know that God is God and Jesus is the son of God. They know he is Lord. In my mind, that doesn't mean demons or the devil will be saved.
Quote from: jabcat on August 12, 2010, 08:37:18 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 08:21:45 PM
That's easy to answer James.
They confess/admit that Jesus is the lord. Then they are kicked in hell (ET view) or are destroyed (ED view).
No, no, that's one I was anticipating. I wondered if someone would really say that.
So in that scenario, the Pure, Holy Spirit moves on all the unsaved (90-95%) of humanity that God ever created. Convicts their hearts of their need for Jesus. Every one of them responds to the Holy Spirit's conviction, they are under the Pure Spirit's influence, and they open their hearts and confess Jesus as their Lord/Master. Then God steps in, grabs them by the neck, and throws them into a literal, burning fire. And that's after He goes to the trouble of raising them from the dead first, as well as sending the spirit He gave them (and that returned to Him upon death [Ecclesiastes]) back to them - so all the above could happen.
So some believe that's a reasonable view in light of the whole of scripture?
I think you are reading more into the scripture than what's intended. You could very well be right on. With that said, for argument sake its possible that every knee shall bow and tongue confess because of the sheer magnitude of being in his presence. I believe Satan and the demons already know God is Lord of all. Does that mean they are saved? I don't know.
I've also read where it means "to acknowledge, joyfully proclaim".
A key for me is what I always note in such posts. The "popular" [kjv and such] say no one can confess Jesus but BY the Holy Spirit. Apparently a more literal translation [Young's] is "IN" the Holy Spirit.
Regarding your last post, "reading too much into scripture" - you mean this part? "Every one of them responds to the Holy Spirit's conviction, they are under the Pure Spirit's influence, and they open their hearts and confess Jesus as their Lord/Master." I was looking how other scripture states the only way one can confess Jesus as Lord - "IN the Holy Spirit". :bigGrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 08:21:45 PM
That's easy to answer James.
They confess/admit that Jesus is the lord. Then they are kicked in hell (ET view) or are destroyed (ED view).
However there is a slight problem.
Confession is always used in the Bible as true sincere confession from the heart. Not some lies to escape judgement.
So all sincery confess. Jesus had asomething to say about that event:
KJVJoh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
ETs answer that with "Bad luck. To late. After death is judgement. Fry!" I don't know how EDs view this but logicly it follows they hold teh ET view otherwise ED wouldn't be true.
So what we need is proof that the salvation offer still stands after death...
I have found something that might prove it or add weight to it, but im not sure if I want to share :laughing7:
Shawn, according to that view, even if they did bow and confess "under the sheer weight" (which I don't believe accurately translated, rightly divided scripture describes) then God and the LAMB still toss them into literal fire to either burn them up or torture them forever. "I hung on the cross, dragged all men to myself as I said I would, but now 95% of you still have to burn."
Is there any scripture that explicitly states that they must "confess, believe" in this life (age?) in order to be saved?
Or does it only say, those who believe, and confess will be saved, while those who do not believe will be punished?
KJVLev. 5:5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
KJVLev. 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
KJVNum. 5:7 Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.
KJV1 Ki. 8:33 When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee, and shall turn again to thee, and confess thy name, and pray, and make supplication unto thee in this house:
KJV1 Ki. 8:35 When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:
KJV2 Chr. 6:24 And if thy people Israel be put to the worse before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee; and shall return and confess thy name, and pray and make supplication before thee in this house;
KJV2 Chr. 6:26 When the heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; yet if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou dost afflict them;
KJVNeh. 1:6 Let thine ear now be attentive, and thine eyes open, that thou mayest hear the prayer of thy servant, which I pray before thee now, day and night, for the children of Israel thy servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel, which we have sinned against thee: both I and my father's house have sinned.
KJVJob 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
KJVPs. 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
KJVMatt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
KJVLk. 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
KJVJn. 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
KJVJn. 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
KJVActs 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
KJVActs 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
KJVRom. 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
KJVRom. 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
KJVRom. 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
KJVPhil. 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJVJas. 5:16 confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
KJV1 Jn. 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
KJV1 Jn. 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
KJV2 Jn. 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
KJVRev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
3034 hd'y" yadah {yaw-daw'}
Meaning: 1) to throw, shoot, cast 1a) (Qal) to shoot (arrows) 1b) (Piel) to cast, cast down, throw down 1c) (Hiphil) 1c1) to give thanks,, laud, praise 1c2) to confess, confess (the name of God) 1d) (Hithpael) 1d1) to confess (sin) 1d2) to give thanks
Origin: a primitive root; used only as denominative from 03027; TWOT - 847; v
Usage: AV - praise 53, give thanks 32, confess 16, thank 5, make confession 2, thanksgiving 2, cast 1, cast out 1, shoot 1, thankful 1; 114
1843 evxomologe,w exomologeo {ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to confess 2) to profess 2a) acknowledge openly and joyfully 2b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to 2c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage
Origin: from 1537 and 3670; TDNT - 5:199,687; v
Usage: AV - confess 8, thank 2, promise 1; 11
I only see true confessions. Perhaps some are forced in the sense that the vast amount of evidence forces a true confession.
Every knee shall bow being forced or free will? (http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/ForceOrFreeWill.html)
e Isaiah passage first-
Isaiah 45: 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'24 "Only in the Lord, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. 25 In the Lord all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory."
Now Paul's letter to the Philippians concerning Jesus-
Philippians 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
:gthumbsup: WW.
Lefein - none that I know of. However, there are over 600 scriptures that speak of "all, all nations" knowing and being blessed by God, etc. Also, RETURNING to God...
J. Preston Eby says; "On this earth there are more than four and a half billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means. If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!
And what about the multiplied billions who have gone before and never had any contact with the living Christ? Even if all the people of this one generation could be saved, it would be only a infinitesimal fraction of the people who have ever lived, and there would be no victory for God, for the devil would still possess the vast majority of mankind. It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam's creation. Of these, the very broadest estimate that could be made with reason would be that less than three billion were truly saints of God. This broad estimate would leave the immense aggregate of one hundred and fifty seven billions (157,000,000,000) who went to their graves without faith and hope in the only name given under heaven or among men whereby we must be saved. Indeed, the vast majority of these never knew or heard the name of Jesus, and could not believe in Him of whom they had not heard. What, I ask, has become of this vast multitude, of which figures give a wholly inadequate idea? What is, and is to be, their condition? Did God make no provision for these, whose condition and circumstances He must have foreseen? Or did He, from the foundation of the world, make a wretched and merciless provision for their hopeless, eternal torment, as many of His children claim? Can you really believe that is the plan by which the all-wise, all-merciful, loving God is working out His purpose here on earth? WHAT IS THE TRUTH?
Paul, in I Tim. 2:1-6, gives the answer! "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN ... for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE A-L-L M-E-N TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time."
Quote from: Lefein on August 13, 2010, 12:05:18 AM
Is there any scripture that explicitly states that they must "confess, believe" in this life (age?) in order to be saved?
Or does it only say, those who believe, and confess will be saved, while those who do not believe will be punished?
I've never seen a limit.
ET objection is something like: ... death and then comes judgement.
So judgement immediately follows death. So you have no time to repent until after you are judged. And once the judge has spoken...
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 12:17:56 AM
Quote from: Lefein on August 13, 2010, 12:05:18 AM
Is there any scripture that explicitly states that they must "confess, believe" in this life (age?) in order to be saved?
Or does it only say, those who believe, and confess will be saved, while those who do not believe will be punished?
I've never seen a limit.
ET objection is something like: ... death and then comes judgement.
So judgement immediately follows death. So you have no time to repent until after you are judged. And once the judge has spoken...
Continuing your thought WW....
Tortured in the presence of the Lamb. "What an amazing divine paradox! The Lamb - precious embodiment of the very character of innocence, patience, meekness, gentleness, holiness, sacrifice, and redemption - being made TORMENT to men for whom He died! The very thought seems incongruous. You see, dear ones, IT IS NOT THE NATURE of a lamb to torture anyone. It is simply not in the nature of the lamb to want to hurt in any way. Really! What could a lamb do to torture anyone? It has no capability for such a thing. And so it is with the LAMB OF GOD! The Lamb of God has no desire, no ability to inflict torture in any way -
His desire is entirely redemptive - that men might have life and have it more abundantly! I cannot imagine One with the nature of a lamb packing poor lost souls like brick into a kiln, standing there blowing the fires of hell through them for ever. Such a grotesque representation charges the blessed Redeemer with crimes more heartless than those of Adolph Eichmann." J. Preston Eby
(still reading through the large, but very appetising looking posts :p)
My thought was though...
That if the scriptures do not state explicitly, or in any plain manner "in this life" the way that our current church teachers, and preachers say...Then those very same preachers, and teachers who ascribe to "where the bible is silent, we are silent", are in error, and should perhaps...be made aware of that.
Just a thought to ponder, and some equipment ideas for the saints. :)
As for the judgement, how often does a man die? What is the judgement of God like? His judgements if memory serves, on Israel, where judgements on sin, to bring them to repentance, those judgements ceased when the repentance was given. God does not change, and his concept of justice surely will not so long as God IS.
Another thought to consider...
If it requires "Freewill" to accept Jesus Christ, and be saved...basically the typical arminian teaching that goes on in most churches to day: "God is a gentleman, who won't violate your freewill, you choose eternal Hell by your own freewill, etc, etc".
Then...Why does that cease to apply in the Judgement? Will God suddenly change and violate the freewill of the unrepentant to force them to bow, and acknowledge him? ;)
Quote from: jabcat on August 13, 2010, 12:20:10 AMTortured in the presence of the Lamb. "What an amazing divine paradox!
No paradox.
The word is tormented.
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 1) to
test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of
gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) to question by applying torture 3) to torture 4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment 5) to be harassed, distressed 5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Origin: from 931; TDNT - 1:561,96; v
Usage: AV - torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1; 12
I read while the refiners fire is doing it's job seperating the dros from the gold (the tar from the wheat) The Lamb and His angels keep checking if the process is finished...
Quote from: Lefein on August 13, 2010, 12:21:14 AM
(still reading through the large, but very appetising looking posts :p)
My thought was though...
That if the scriptures do not state explicitly, or in any plain manner "in this life" the way that our current church teachers, and preachers say...Then those very same preachers, and teachers who ascribe to "where the bible is silent, we are silent", are in error, and should perhaps...be made aware of that.
Just a thought to ponder, and some equipment ideas for the saints. :)
As for the judgement, how often does a man die? What is the judgement of God like? His judgements if memory serves, on Israel, where judgements on sin, to bring them to repentance, those judgements ceased when the repentance was given. God does not change, and his concept of justice surely will not so long as God IS.
Another thought to consider...
If it requires "Freewill" to accept Jesus Christ, and be saved...basically the typical arminian teaching that goes on in most churches to day: "God is a gentleman, who won't violate your freewill, you choose eternal Hell by your own freewill, etc, etc".
Then...Why does that cease to apply in the Judgement? Will God suddenly change and violate the freewill of the unrepentant to force them to bow, and acknowledge him? ;)
Alot of great stuff here.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 12:31:46 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 13, 2010, 12:20:10 AMTortured in the presence of the Lamb. "What an amazing divine paradox!
No paradox.
The word is tormented.
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) to question by applying torture 3) to torture 4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment 5) to be harassed, distressed 5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Origin: from 931; TDNT - 1:561,96; v
Usage: AV - torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1; 12
I read while the refiners fire is doing it's job seperating the dros from the gold (the tar from the wheat) The Lamb and His angels keep checking if the process is finished...
Yeah, I think "tortured" is what many/most "hear"/perceive. Either way, J. Preston (and the scriptures) are saying it may be a painful, but necessary and ultimately good - no,
perfect - process :thumbsup:. Amen to the definition. Missed by many of us.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 11:37:52 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 12, 2010, 11:31:24 PMI know there is much talk of spiritual death, but I know that Jesus DIED(dead) on the cross,
I'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed. :mblush:
Please explain? :sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 13, 2010, 01:17:36 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 11:37:52 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 12, 2010, 11:31:24 PMI know there is much talk of spiritual death, but I know that Jesus DIED(dead) on the cross,
I'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed. :mblush:
Please explain? :sigh:
I think it's way off-topic in this thread. I've been doing a small study on 3 days and 3 nights.
The 'study' isn't complete yet. Has still to be checked for errors and the formatting/readability it's nothing more than a quick note for personal use.
So I hope it's at least clear what wrote...
3 days and 3 nights (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/3days3nights.html)
I do not understand this "study." Jesus died, Jesus died a living soul, human being, death and He was in the grave for three days. I do not see what you are implying that Jesus died when He was betrayed. Praise the Lord and Thank you Jesus.
Quote from: wwI'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed.
Yes. I came to the same conclusion. He died when he handed himself over to Satan.
Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
"Gethsemane"G1068
Γεθσημανη
Gethsēmanē
gheth-say-man-ay'
Of Chaldee origin (compare [H1660] and [H8081]);
oil press; Gethsemane, a garden near Jerusalem: - Gethsemane.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 13, 2010, 08:27:12 AM
I do not understand this "study." Jesus died, Jesus died a living soul, human being, death and He was in the grave for three days.
He was not. That's the whole point. He was in the earth 3 days/nights.
Earth has (slightly) different meaning than grave. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
KJVMat 12:40QuoteI do not see what you are implying that Jesus died when He was betrayed.
Just follow the steps with an open mind. And really read all the comments because the 'trick' is hidden in exact reading of what's written.
You, hopefully, will see there is a night 'missing' when counting from crucifixion.
The missing night is the night of betrayal. Jesus was cut off from Father then. (didn't speak anymore) Earth is linked to carnality, dust, sin, cut off from HS.
I also think it should come as 'no suprise that this event like most in the Bible has some twist. Can be read straight forward for global understanding. But also links back to 'old teachings for fine details.
:2c:
Quote from: wwJesus was cut off from Father then. (didn't speak anymore)
Yes. :HeartThrob:
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
--Isa 53
That's a good verse Molly. I'm going to add that to my little study.
Matthew 26:38
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Luke 22:44
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Can I hear and Amen? ......AMEN! :happygrin:
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2010, 09:55:20 AM
Matthew 26:38
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
I don't see the link...
QuoteLuke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
I know it's medically proven we are speaking of litteral blood here.
I wonder if it has a link to the earth crying out when the Cain spilled the blood of his brother (on the ground)
Quote from: wwI don't see the link...
soul sorrowful even unto death=totally cut off from the Father.
When he says, Take this cup from me--he's speaking present tense.
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2010, 10:14:49 AM
Quote from: wwI don't see the link...
soul sorrowful even unto death=totally cut off from the Father.
When he says, Take this cup from me--he's speaking present tense.
The cup that the father gave me shall I not drink it?
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2010, 10:14:49 AMWhen he says, Take this cup from me--he's speaking present tense.
I wouldn't be suprised if it's aorist tense...
If you all are gonna talk like you do that Jesus died when he was betrayed then you all missed the boat altogether. There is a great diference in spirtual and spirituality, but that said, Jesus died when He was born in the flesh, but it was His death on the cross that payed the ransome.
And yes I agree Jesus' words "When he says, Take this cup from me--he's speaking present tense."
And here as well... Mat 26:42 Again, a second time, having gone away, he prayed, saying, `My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from me except I drink it, Thy will be done;'
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 07:58:13 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2010, 10:14:49 AMWhen he says, Take this cup from me--he's speaking present tense.
I wouldn't be suprised if it's aorist tense...
I really need some info on what those tenses
exactly mean...
KJVMar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Said: 5707 Tense - Imperfect (See 5775) Voice - Active (See 5784) Mood - Indicative (See 5791) Count - 855
Take away: 5628 Tense - Second Aorist (See 5780) Voice - Active (See 5784) Mood - Imperative (See 5794) Count - 459
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2010, 09:26:37 AM
Quote from: wwI'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed.
Yes. I came to the same conclusion. He died when he handed himself over to Satan.
Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
"Gethsemane"
G1068
Γεθσημανη
Gethsēmanē
gheth-say-man-ay'
Of Chaldee origin (compare [H1660] and [H8081]); oil press; Gethsemane, a garden near Jerusalem: - Gethsemane.
No Jesus dies spiritually/ emotionally when he cried
My father why have you forsaken me
He then died, when he died.
Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
This scripture is talking about the house of Israel. Jesus said I am not sent but to the house of Israel
Jesus also said Who are my friends those that doeth the will of my father or do my commands.
Since the gentiles were strangers to God and had not obtained mercy, written by Paul somewhere, then it stand to reason then it is only possible for the house of Israel to be his friends.
So who wounded him, the scripture says that when he returns those that pierced him will wail.
The house of Israel wounded him, yes, yes we all wounded him, but the scriptures state that the generation of Jesus wounded him and desired a murderer to be freed but cruxified the lord.
God bless Jesus the messiah
Quote from: ww
I'm not so sure. I think Jesus died when He was betrayed.
Yes. I came to the same conclusion. He died when he handed himself over to Satan.
When did this take place? Jesus handed himself over to satan? Book and verse please. :mshock:
Quote from: MicahWhen did this take place? Jesus handed himself over to satan? Book and verse please.
I really don't live or die with this opinion, in fact, I hadn't thought about it for a long time until WW mentioned it--then, I remembered, yes, I had come to the same conclusion. Because when you start looking for the 3 days and 3 nights after the crucifixion, they are not there if you start counting from his death on Friday--Friday night and Saturday night are only two nights. We are not the first to notice this, others have, as well, and come up with things like a double Sabbath, etc, to try to explain it. But, this is conclusion I came to --he died the day before the cross when he handed himself over to Satan. So now we have Jesus placed in the garden in agony-[-just like Adam after he ate from the tree and was hiding from God]--in the day you eat from that tree, you will die. Adam was dead [spiritually] and Jesus--now in the belly of the beast-- is reversing the steps of Adam. It's not that important, Micah, really. I was just surprised to see ww come to a similar conclusion.
2During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him,--John 13
21When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
23Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
26Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it.
And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
29For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
30He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
31Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
--John 13
The cup that the father gave jesus to drink was his wrath poured upon sin. Jesus took our wrath.
It pleased the father to bruise his son.
The hour of darkness has come the price of the world cometh and had nothing in me.
The princes of the world would not have cruxified the lord if they knew what it accomplished.
All of these sayings are in the bible. The father gave the devil authority over Jesus for one hour and the devil choose to cruxify Jesus in a painfull manner, but ended up backfiring on himself for the seed of the woman bruised his head (Genesis) and destroyed his authority of being the angel that had power over death, for Jesus defeated death and he that had power over death, the devil.
When the devil gets thrown into the lake of fire, death also is destroyed.
Another thought of interest (at least to me :happy3:) -
Although some good points have been raised, I've always thought (and mostly still do) that Jesus died when He took His last breath on the cross. Howevah.....in some true sense, He was slain from the foundation of the world. Maybe that mostly means that God fully intended it, so it was "good as done".
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 02:26:51 AM
Another thought of interest (at least to me :happy3:) -
Although some good points have been raised, I've always thought (and mostly still do) that Jesus died when He took His last breath on the cross. Howevah.....in some true sense, He was slain from the foundation of the world. Maybe that mostly means that God fully intended it, so it was "good as done".
me too, when he gave up the ghost. But I think what they saying is that, the sins of man, at what point did Jesus take them upon himself, being that the wages of sin is death. I think its when jesus said, this is the hour of darkness, that's when the devil had power over him, when he took our sins upon himself. :2c:
I hear ya.
41And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
--Mark 14
Luke 22:53
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
50And they all forsook him, and fled.
51And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:
52And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.
--Mark 14
7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
--Gen 3
Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2010, 04:57:51 AM
41And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
--Mark 14
Luke 22:53
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
50And they all forsook him, and fled.
51And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:
52And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.
--Mark 14
7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
--Gen 3
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 02:26:51 AM
Another thought of interest (at least to me :happy3:) -
Although some good points have been raised, I've always thought (and mostly still do) that Jesus died when He took His last breath on the cross. Howevah.....in some true sense, He was slain from the foundation of the world. Maybe that mostly means that God fully intended it, so it was "good as done".
The first Adam died twice too.
When he ate the fruit he died spiritually. His link with Father was broken. Then many years later he 'really died".
The story of the 2nd Adam is very similar...
hmmm...right. Good point. Since the first Adam brought death, and the second Adam conquered it, it does make sense.. :thumbsup:
Quote from: thinktank on August 14, 2010, 02:31:09 AMme too, when he gave up the ghost. But I think what they saying is that, the sins of man, at what point did Jesus take them upon himself, being that the wages of sin is death. I think its when jesus said, this is the hour of darkness, that's when the devil had power over him, when he took our sins upon himself. :2c:
TT, James. Our disagreement isn't that big I think.
We completely agree Jesus died (also) on the cross and gave up the ghost on that same cross/moment. That was literal death during literal crucifixion.
You also said "that's when the devil had power over him, when he took our sins upon himself."
How different is that of the Jesus we know from all other verses. Sinless and free of satan. He even cast out satan. But now satan got the upper hand.
I think we can agree Jesus felt that as "extremely negative".
NJBMat 26:38 Then he said to them, 'My soul is sorrowful to the point of death. Wait here and stay awake with me.'
My first language isn't English so I don't fully grasp "point of death". Does it mean his soul completly died or was terminally ill?
I would suggest to reread my study. It is without any doctrine. It's reading verses literally and then simply count days. A night is missing. The night Jesus was betrayed.
Then that missing night has to be explained. My explanation is 'death'. There could be another one. I would like to hear that. But only after reading the study... :winkgrin:
I've been looking at your study and will do so some more.
For me, just a simple interpretation of "sorrowful unto death" means, something like I might say in today's vernacular - "I'm so sad (or so sick) I could die", or "it feels like it's killing me". I may be wrong, but I believe that's one "everyday" way of saying it.
I'll look more at your [complicated :Sparkletooth:] study.
So you (and the study) are saying on that Friday night, when He was betrayed, He took the sins of the world on Himself and technically "died" - that's why the Friday night is "missing"? The rest of the time He was ministering? Am I close?
...that's when the devil had power over him, when he took our sins upon himself?
I do not see in Spirit, a being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, who puts us into this world without our willingness, leaving us to struggle through it the best we can, unequally pitted against an almost omnipotent devil, and then, if we fail, finally exiting us out of this world into a Hellfire of damnation, where a legion of inferior devils find constant and never ending employment in the inventions of new tortures for humanity; our only crime being that we have not succeeded where success was rendered impossible – as no high, no manly, no humane thoughts are ever developed from this Doctrine of Devils (Satan) and their damnation. If a potent faith of many, it degrades alike the teacher and the taught by its abhorrent mercilessness; and if a form of belief, then is this doctrine a misleading sham, which frightens only the weak minded, never developing powerful men of principle.
A clean sinner is preferable to that of a dirty saint in the book from which many ascribe, yet this is understood by very few.
peacemaker
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 07:52:16 AM
So you (and the study) are saying on that Friday night, when He was betrayed, He took the sins of the world on Himself and technically "died" - that's why the Friday night is "missing"? The rest of the time He was ministering? Am I close?
No :winkgrin: (BTW that 'study' is mine. So no scholarly view)
I just looked at the verses. Counted days and night. etc.
That simple counting shows that Jesus 'must' have died on Friday night (rememebr Friday-night preceeds Friday-day).
We all know Jesus did die during the day (the daylight part of the day)
So how can we explain the missing night?
My answer is Jesus died that night. Dunno exactly when. When He gave Judas the dipped bread. When Judas got payed by the priest. Or when Judas kissed Jesus.
But that doesn't really matter because all those events took place after dark (= night)
BTW it aligns with the view of the church. Good Friday is crucifixion day.
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 07:52:16 AM
So you (and the study) are saying on that Friday night, when He was betrayed, He took the sins of the world on Himself and technically "died" - that's why the Friday night is "missing"? The rest of the time He was ministering? Am I close?
Let's say for the sake of argument--
He is in the garden on Thursday evening. He died on Friday afternoon.
The Jewish day starts at sundown and goes to the next sundown.
Alright, here's what I think--you can correct me if I'm wrong.
The Last Supper is not the Passover meal. The Passover meal is to take place the next day after sunset [at twilight].
If the day before Jesus is crucified is the day before Passover, that evening and the next day constitute the day of preparation for Passover. During this time, Jesus is betrayed, suffers in the garden, is tried, convicted, and crucified. He is taken down from the cross before sunset on Friday, because the Passover feast and the Sabbath begins that evening.
5Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel
shall kill it in the evening. 7And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8
And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and
unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
--Ex 12
So they are to eat the meal in the same night they kill it. Yet, they are to eat it with unleavened bread.
We see that Jesus treats the Last Supper as though it is a private, privileged Passover meal for his disciples. At the Last Supper, there is no Passover lamb, only bread and wine. Jesus offers himself to his disciples as the Passover lamb that night in a private ceremony!
23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.--1 Cor 11
And we see the bread that Jesus offers the disciples at the Last Supper is not the unleavened bread of the Passover Seder but is leavened bread!
26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.--Mat 26
"bread"G740
αρτος
artosar'-tos
From G142; bread
(as raised) or a loaf: -
(shew-) bread, loaf.
We could go into the symbolism of unleavened versus leavened bread, but I believe the bread he gives his disciples, which he calls 'my body,' is symbolically leavened with the Holy Spirit which Jesus is offering now to his disciples. He makes it clear that it is for them that his body is now being broken.
The next day, Friday, [which is the same day for the Jews--the day of Preparation] on the cross, Jesus becomes the Passover Lamb for the world. Having already privately celebrated Passover with his disciples, but with leavened bread, He is taken off the cross and buried in preparation for the Passover feast for those unleavened who do not yet accept him as the Messiah.
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
--John 1
(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.--1 Tim 4:10
Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2010, 08:28:17 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 07:52:16 AM
So you (and the study) are saying on that Friday night, when He was betrayed, He took the sins of the world on Himself and technically "died" - that's why the Friday night is "missing"? The rest of the time He was ministering? Am I close?
Let's say for the sake of argument--
He is in the garden on Thursday evening. He died on Friday afternoon.
Our western thursday evening. In my study I named the days the Jewish way.
So friday-nite in that study is Thursday evening in our counting of days.
QuoteAlright, here's what I think--you can correct me if I'm wrong.
The Last Supper is not the Passover meal. The Passover meal is to take place the next day after sunset [at twilight].
I think there is no other possibility because if Jesus ate the Passover meal it means He was crucified on Passover day. Execution are never done on holy days.
QuoteIf the day before Jesus is crucified is the day before Passover, that evening and the next day constitute the day of preparation for Passover. During this time, Jesus is betrayed, suffers in the garden, is tried, convicted, and crucified. He is taken down from the cross before sunset on Friday, because the Passover feast and the Sabbath begins that evening.
Agreed.
QuoteSo they are to eat the meal in the same night they kill it. Yet, they are to eat it with unleavened bread.
We see that Jesus treats the Last Supper as though it is a private, privileged Passover meal for his disciples. At the Last Supper, there is no Passover lamb, only bread and wine. Jesus offers himself to his disciples as the Passover lamb that night in a private ceremony!
So the "this bread is my body" actually means "this bread is your passover Lamb"?
The Table of Showbread of the Tabernacle
The table of showbread was a small table made of acacia wood and overlaid with pure gold. It measured 3 feet by 1.5 feet and was 2 feet, 3 inches high. It stood on the right side of the Holy Place across from the lampstand and held 12 loaves of bread, representing the 12 tribes of Israel. The priests baked the bread with fine flour and it remained on the table before the Lord for a week; every Sabbath day the priests would remove it and eat it in the Holy Place, then put fresh bread on the table. Only priests could eat the bread, and it could only be eaten in the Holy Place, because it was holy.
"Showbread" also was called "bread of the presence" because it was to be always in the Lord's presence. The table and the bread were a picture of God's willingness to fellowship and communion (literally speaking, sharing something in common) with man. It was like an invitation to share a meal, an extension of friendship. Eating together often is an act of fellowship. God was willing for man to enter into His presence to fellowship with Him, and this invitation was always open.
Jesus exemplified this when He ate with tax collectors, prostitutes and the sinners of Jewish society. But this was more than just a gesture of friendship on earth. Jesus came to call sinners to Him, make them right with God, so that they could enjoy everlasting fellowship with God.
"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. ... Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die." (John 6:35, 49-50)
God so desires our fellowship that He was willing to come to earth from heaven as our "bread of life" to give eternal life to all those who would partake in it. At Jesus' last Passover meal with His disciples, Jesus described Himself as bread again:
"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, 'Take and eat; this is my body.'" (Matthew 26:26)
Jesus' broken body is our only access to fellowship with God. Today, we celebrate the Lord's Supper, or communion, to remember this important truth. And today, as in the day of Moses' tabernacle, God still desires to have fellowship and sit down for a feast with His people.
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." (Revelations 3:20)
http://www.the-tabernacle-place.com/tabernacle_articles/tabernacle_table_showbread.aspx
Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2010, 09:39:52 PM
The Table of Showbread of the Tabernacle
The table of showbread was a small table made of acacia wood and overlaid with pure gold. It measured 3 feet by 1.5 feet and was 2 feet, 3 inches high.
That's exactly 2 x 1 x 1.5 cubits. Do those numbers have any special significance?
Quote"Showbread" also was called "bread of the presence" because it was to be always in the Lord's presence.
What Jesus Showbread at Last Supper?
Quote from: wwWhat Jesus Showbread at Last Supper?
The bread that he breaks for them is leavened--the showbread--his body--continually in the presence of God. This is his gift to them.
26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.--Mat 26
"bread"
G740
αρτος
artosar'-tos
From G142; bread (as raised) or a loaf: -
(shew-) bread, loaf.
"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. ... Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die." (John 6:35, 49-50)
Only the priests can eat the shewbread.
This is the true spiritual meaning of Passover.
In the Old Testament, they ate a dead lamb and unleavened bread on Passover, but Jesus offers his priests the bread of life and the living God.
"He said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood,' you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.'"
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. "Many of His disciples when they heard it said, 'This is a hard saying. Who can listen to it?'"
--John 6