Eternal Torture: purpose beyond "mistranslation"?

[NinjaWizards777]

First off I want to say I am not anti UR...I actually very much hope that it is true and lean towards the idea more than not though it is fairly new to me. But in my stuggle with faith these last months, and the bible and the way it has come ot us today...IVe come to the belif that if the Bible is true and christianty is true, that what the bible says in its entirety and what the chruch (generally) accepts, is all for a good reason.

this is not to say that, humans have not tainted ever tainted the Word or the church...i think it would be foolish to think otherwise. However, I very much beieve that (overall) what the bible says and what christianity generally accepts IS apart of Gods purpose. While im open to bible mistranslations and what not, i belive God has worked through those human mistakes for a purpose non the less.

What Im trying to say is, whether ET is false or not...I think there is some sort of reason that it is talked about in the bible...beyond just "a mistranslation" or a twisting within biblical cannons. Maybe if UR was all the Bible and Jesus talked about...there would be less of a desire in us believers to go out and share God and his salvation...because "well everyone will be saved in the end, so why not just let people do what they want?"(Im sortof playing the devils advocate here if you havent noticed)

This isnt to say I think we, or other people, should be "feared" into a relationship with God...not at all. ET or no ET I dont believe thats what God intends. What Im saying is...ETs prescense in the bible, true or not..I think has a purpose or I dont think God would have allowed it to be in there and become such a genrally accepted doctrune.

Im intrested to hear your thoughts though

[alihaymeg]

It sounds like you are on the same journey as the rest of us. We have all gone through the process of shedding some of those ingrained ideas about God's wrath and the punishment to come.

For me, the key is that UR is not a "Do nothing" religion. On the contrary, It turns up the heat.
Read 1 Corinthians chapter 6 and try not to assume that Paul is talking about Heaven and Hell.

Paul is talking to believers about repentance and becoming perfected. He makes reference to the saints judging the world and even angels.

Paul gives a list of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God. The word Kingdom here literally means the right to rule. It is not talking about going to heaven or being sent to Hell.

There is a higher purpose for which we are all being preped. Those who achieve this righteousness will become the priests and Kings who will lead the rest of the world to righteousness in the next age.

I don't mean to lay a bunch of heavy stuff on you right off, but this is crucial to understanding our purpose here.

God did not create humanity just to turn around and send 99% of them to Hell. You know this in your heart or you would not be here. He would leave the 99 alone just to save the one. That does not mean losing the 99. It means he is not willing to lose even 1.

God bless you

[sven]

I think has a purpose or I dont think God would have allowed it to be in there and become such a genrally accepted doctrune.

Im intrested to hear your thoughts though

about centuries people had no chance to read the bible
people were killed for reading or translating the bible by the catholics
the reformators (at least Luther was much influenced my Augustine) were influenced by catholicism. i think the translations that came up at the reformation they were very much influenced by latin church and the vulgate.
i think everyone considers Islam to be a wrong religion but though God allowed Islam to grow to a world religion.

i dont know if this all had a purpose

[ScarletWren]

What you bring up are just a few of the arguments used by ET believers to say that UR is wrong.

And you are right that since God works everything according to His will, He has a reason for allowing mistranslations, the mainstream of Christians believing in ET. and on and on.

It is a silly argument tho to say that if there were no hell, you don't need to tell others about the salvation of Jesus Christ.  To those who learn of God's unconditional love, life has much more joy and hope.  Why not teach the truth about God?  UR does not remove consequences for your actions, it just puts the consequences into perspective.  Gives it some meaning, not just vengeance that lasts 'forever.'  Besides Jesus said to go and tell the world about redemption, that God is not angry at us, He wants us to draw near to Him.  As He told Israel, "Return to me for I have redeemed  you."   not  Come to me and then I will redeem you, if........"

Yes, there is always that danger that since the ET threat is removed, certain people will be more inclined to lead amoral lives. But even with that threat, people commit atrocities. Severity of consequences for certain crimes doesn't seem to affect those who commit those acts. 

It comes down to the fact we want the 'other' guy to get what is coming to them for the wrong they have done to us or 'innocent' victims but want grace for ouselves, or we just can't get past what we've been taught by 'the experts in Bible scholarship'.

But you can talk till you are blue in the face, until God opens someone's eyes and unstops their ears, they will continue to believe what the majority of churches have taught through the dark ages and into the present.  Praise God that that won't last 'forever.'  And since we don't know whose eyes and ears he will open at any given time, we should always be ready to share the good news with anyone who shows an interest.

Glad you have joined us here Ninja.  You have started an amazing journey

[ScarletWren]

HI Fire,

Well, I also have seen some UR believers who say that there is little to no consequences of a life of sin.  I think it's just a definition of what the consequences are for and to what degree the consequence is inflicted.  Most of us have at least some idea of what we think it is.  It can be hard to put into words tho.  I don't believe however that we can just claim what we want and this life will be easy.  If it is then God can't be dealing with us because He chastens every son.  We are pruned so that the fruit we bear is the best that it can be.  It seems to me that the sweetest fruit comes after the most difficult pruning.  But who am I???

Much could be discussed on this subject as on any other. 

[NinjaWizards777]

God did not create humanity just to turn around and send 99% of them to Hell. You know this in your heart or you would not be here. He would leave the 99 alone just to save the one. That does not mean losing the 99. It means he is not willing to lose even 1.

THIS has been very heavy on my heart indeed. On the same note, I dont wanna search for truth that just "sounds right to my ears" like the world often does(im not saying that that is the definite case in UR, but i know alot of people that have come into the sounds right to me thinking).

Personally I dont understand why God would create the majroity of humanity if that majority was doomed to ETERNAL seperation from him...that doesnt add up at all to me and I therefore beleive its more complicated than that, and that everyone will come to accept God by the "end". However just because thats how I feel things should be doesnt make it right.

And if ET is a matter of mistranslations and twistings...we have to ask ourselves what else has been mistranslated and twisted against Gods purpose and intent? Maybe heaven isnt eternal, maybe their isnt even a heaven? Maybe everything is simply metaphorical? maybe jesus never did what the gospels say he did?

as much as id like to accept UR at this moment, it seems to bring up just as much if not more questions than it answers...although pretty much everything has been like that for me and christianity the past few months. having strong faith again period in God or anything is rough for me right now. so...take that for what you will

[legoman]

Hi NinjaWizards777,

I felt like you are feeling for the first several months after finding out about UR.  It didn't all make sense (although UR makes a lot more sense than ET).  I had lots of questions.  The only way I could satisfy myself was to find the answers to the tough questions.  Basically I've been studying UR for about a year now and its all starting to make sense.

I haven't really shared my new UR beliefs with anyone except my wife, and just recently my parents.  So far they remain unconvinced. 

However to get your answers you should do alot of study yourself - don't rely on what other people say.  Go straight to the word, and the original greek if necessary.  Although looking at the greek is not needed for the most part, once you understand aion/aionion etc doesn't mean eterntity.

There are other very good sites that get into the nitty gritty details about UR.  Use them as a guide and compare everything with the scriptures.  So far every question I had about UR I have been able to find a logical consistent answer for that doesn't contradict the bible.

You ask how do we know the bible is true?  How much of it could be mistranslated or twisted?  These are good questions.  You can find historical studies that show how the manuscripts were handed down and show the history and accuracy of the bible.  But the biggest thing you can do is just read it :)  As you start reading it and realize it is all consistent with itself, you will begin to realize that no mere man could have just strung all the books of the bible together.  The bible is like a big puzzle with all the pieces fitting together slowly. 

Before when I believed in ET I would read the bible, but some things wouldn't fit.  Obviously ET is inconsistent with an all-powerful all-loving God.  I couldn't resolve the contradiction, so in my mind I just limited certain poritons of the bible.  But now I read the bible and it just opens up - everything fits together.  Little verses that didn't make sense before or caused me to fear, now make sense and give me great comfort.

Nothing can beat studying your bible.  And of course pray to God for understanding... he will give it to you if you ask.

Cheers,
Legoman

[alihaymeg]

THIS has been very heavy on my heart indeed. On the same note, I dont wanna search for truth that just "sounds right to my ears"

Absolutely not!  Don't believe anything just because it sounds right to your ears. The voice you need to listen to is the Holy Spirit. He is the only one able to lead and guide you into all truth. Just ask Him.

God bless you on your journey.

[NinjaWizards777]

THIS has been very heavy on my heart indeed. On the same note, I dont wanna search for truth that just "sounds right to my ears"

Absolutely not!  Don't believe anything just because it sounds right to your ears. The voice you need to listen to is the Holy Spirit. He is the only one able to lead and guide you into all truth. Just ask Him.

God bless you on your journey.

well it would seem he "leads" people both into ET and into UR :dontknow:

[legoman]

well it would seem he "leads" people both into ET and into UR :dontknow:

You are correct NinjaWizards.

It is God who blinds people and then later opens their eyes.

God sends a strong delusion so we should believe a lie, and he sets us all in unbelief so he can have mercy on us later.  It is all part of his plan.

Romans 11:32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.

2 Thes 2:
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Cheers,
Legoman

[sven]

And if ET is a matter of mistranslations and twistings...we have to ask ourselves what else has been mistranslated and twisted against Gods purpose and intent? Maybe heaven isnt eternal, maybe their isnt even a heaven?

maybe the Sabbath in the New Testament, "first day of the weeks" appears not a single time in the Concordant Literal Translation, some believe Jesus was ressurected on Sabbath.

[alihaymeg]

well it would seem he "leads" people both into ET and into UR

No one has to be led into belief in ET. It is pushed on us from birth. If UR were the focus that we were taught from birth, it would never enter our minds to think ill of God and believe anything else. As it stands, you are seeing through ET regardless of the fact that it is all you have ever been taught until now.

[chuckt]

well it would seem he "leads" people both into ET and into UR

No one has to be led into belief in ET. It is pushed on us from birth. If UR were the focus that we were taught from birth, it would never enter our minds to think ill of God and believe anything else. As it stands, you are seeing through ET regardless of the fact that it is all you have ever been taught until now.

my first exposer to ""hell"" fire and the devil having a pitchfork came from bugs bunny cartoons. then catholic school and the movies, wasnt till i was 40 yrs old did i even question it.

woot.

(http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_louvin_cover1.jpg)

chuckt

[sven]

in fact, when i remember, the doctrine of hell made me studying the bible, i just wanted to know if its true when i was a agnostic or maybe deist, i soon got to know annihilation and it made sense for me, then i found out about universalism (concordant publisher) which made even for me sense for me, if all christians would teach annihilation, i would never have been interested in christianity eternal death doesnt bother me, if all christians were universalists, i maybe wouldnt have cared then either. but so i searched and am glad now, maybe im not already a real christian yet, i have a kind of jewish-like belief, i dont care much about an afterlive at all.
but now where i know about universalism, i know i mustnt misuse this and comit evil

[NinjaWizards777]

well it would seem he "leads" people both into ET and into UR :dontknow:

You are correct NinjaWizards.

It is God who blinds people and then later opens their eyes.

God sends a strong delusion so we should believe a lie, and he sets us all in unbelief so he can have mercy on us later.  It is all part of his plan.

Romans 11:32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.

2 Thes 2:
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Cheers,
Legoman

but there have been quite a few christians and still are(the majority) that are never "unblinded" to this notion of UR...which leaves me feeling sketchy. Not that their will ever be one chrisitian, or denomonation that is just "right" about everything according to God...never going to happen.

But the fact that if I and every christian I have encountered has been "wrong" in the thinking of ET, what else are we christians wrong about according to God? There must be a million other things. That thought only shakes my once strong belif in christianity, unfortunitly.

[legoman]

Read this thread by Mickiel.  I think he has some good insight there:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4257.0

As you say, your "once strong belief in Christianity" should be shaken to the core.  Unfortunately, alot of what mainstream Christianity and the mainstream Christian Church teaches is wrong.  Don't let that shake your belief in God, Jesus, and the bible though.  The bible is the truth - its just that mainstream Christianity doesn't teach the truth, or the bible.

Many (most) people will not learn the truth until Christ returns.  "Many are called, but few are chosen."  No one knows if they are lucky enough to be part of the chosen.  Even believing in UR doesn't guarantee you are one of the chosen elect.

I know on another UR site some say if the mainstream Church teaches it, its probably wrong.

Hope I don't ruffle too many feathers, but here is a list of a few teachings (everyone here would agree on the ET point at least):

The church teaches some will end up in eternal torment and not all will be saved.  Is it biblical?  NO.
The church teaches we have free will.  Is it biblical?  NO.
The church teaches God is not responsible for the evil of this world.  Is it biblical? NO.
The church teaches creation was "perfect" before sin entered the world.  Is it biblical?  NO.
The church teaches Satan was a perfect angel before he fell.  Is it biblical?  NO.
The church teaches you go to heaven immediately upon death (if you are saved).  Is it biblical?  NO.
The church teaches that you are saved by a 10-second "sinners prayer".  Is it biblical?  NO.
The church teaches that you should tithe.  Is it biblical?  NO.
The church teaches that God is a trinity.  Is it biblical?  NO.

Of course I am generalizing here - not every church teaches all of these things.  And of course other people may have different opinions than me on the above topics.  You can spend many pages and hours studying each of these topics to find out the truth for yourself.

The point is ET is not the only thing the church is wrong about, but careful study of the scriptures and God's grace will reveal the truth.

Legoman

[NinjaWizards777]

Yes but maybe the problem is, is that the "scriptures" and what the "holy spirit" is saying to us can be interpreted many diffrent ways...thus the problem

[legoman]

True, that is what has led to the many splinters in the church already.

The only thing I can say is study the scriptures for yourself.  Read the articles on this site and others and compare it with the scriptures.  Check the original greek and hebrew if necessary.

Here is my experience and progression:

BEFORE my eyes were opened:
I believed in ET
I didn't read the bible much myself
I just went along with the church said
Some things didn't seem to make sense, and the bible seemed to have some major contradicitons
but I just went along blindly anyway and didn't think about it too much
ie. God is all-loving but will let most of humanity burn forever?  HUH?

AFTER my eyes were opened:
I believe in UR
I read and study the bible daily, and verify everything for myself
I still don't understand everything, but any apparent contradictions have now been resolved.
ie. God is all-loving, and will eventually save all humanity.  Not everyone at the same time, but on His timetable.

If you honestly believe the doctrines of mainstream Christianity, one would have to honestly believe the bible is full of contradictions.

Remove the lens of mainstream Christianity and the scriptures are 100% internally consistent.

Cheers,
Legoman

[HappyBoy!]

True, that is what has led to the many splinters in the church already.

The only thing I can say is study the scriptures for yourself.  Read the articles on this site and others and compare it with the scriptures.  Check the original greek and hebrew if necessary.

Here is my experience and progression:

BEFORE my eyes were opened:
I believed in ET
I didn't read the bible much myself
I just went along with the church said
Some things didn't seem to make sense, and the bible seemed to have some major contradicitons
but I just went along blindly anyway and didn't think about it too much
ie. God is all-loving but will let most of humanity burn forever?  HUH?

AFTER my eyes were opened:
I believe in UR
I read and study the bible daily, and verify everything for myself
I still don't understand everything, but any apparent contradictions have now been resolved.
ie. God is all-loving, and will eventually save all humanity.  Not everyone at the same time, but on His timetable.

If you honestly believe the doctrines of mainstream Christianity, one would have to honestly believe the bible is full of contradictions.

Remove the lens of mainstream Christianity and the scriptures are 100% internally consistent.

Cheers,
Legoman

Ditto that.  My experience exactly. 

Hang in the Ninja.  You're asking the right questions.  Keep searching.  When I was searching this through it was not easy at all at first. I was afraid I was being drawn away and enticed.  So many UR things looked foreign to me. The verses Legoman quoted a few posts back make so much more sense to me now than they used to.

[jabcat]

Ninja, I can't think of one thing you've been told in this thread by your brothers trying to help you, that I disagree with.  These are excellent things that have been shared with you.  God chooses to whom he reveals what, and when.  He is revealing to you.  Trust Him, when all else may seem to be crumbling around you, hold to Him and trust that His Word is trustworthy, and that you can dig into it, yield to it, and most of all, have God's spirit fill you and bring those words/The Word to life in you.  Many times God shakes us, turns us upside down and empties us, then, He fills us.  During that shaking just keep your eyes on Him.

I'd suggest you go to this link and devour it http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html...

and please continue to post your questions and thoughts.  That's part of why we're here, to help each other.  Eyes on Jesus...He never fails.  And in the midst of it all, GOD IS IN CONTROL.

[firstborn888]

(http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_louvin_cover1.jpg)

chuckt
[/quote]

Wow! I heard the title cut from that album in the early eighties. It says "Satan is real - You can see his mighty power working everyday" ect.  :mshock:

[WhiteWings]

IVe come to the belif that if the Bible is true and christianty is true, that what the bible says in its entirety and what the chruch (generally) accepts, is all for a good reason.

Yep. Politics... :sigh:

However, I very much beieve that (overall) what the bible says and what christianity generally accepts IS apart of Gods purpose.

Don't agree.
There is only one truth. The original words of God. All other things are lies. God does allows His word to be corrupted. But I don't believe He actually helps it being corrupted. That would be like a lie...

While im open to bible mistranslations and what not, i belive God has worked through those human mistakes for a purpose non the less.

I'm more and more convinced there are far less mistranslation as many might thing. A mistranslation is genuine mistake.
But the main mistranslation "hell" isn't a mistranslation. It's nothing more than politics.
Many pagan religions speak about ET. Christianity does not. Now imagine you are an emperor and want to unite your people. Just twist some words so that the pagans feel at home in the Christian church/Bible.
Plus fear is a better way to control the masses than happiness.
I think that's the real source of the "mistranslations"
People bash eachothers head in for a dime. So why not tweak the Bible to earn 2 extra dimes? :laughing7:

This isnt to say I think we, or other people, should be "feared" into a relationship with God...not at all. ET or no ET I dont believe thats what God intends. What Im saying is...ETs prescense in the bible, true or not..I think has a purpose or I dont think God would have allowed it to be in there and become such a genrally accepted doctrune.

That also means murder, theft, rape, war, lies, famine, sins in general is intended by God. Afterall it all happens on large scale.

[martincisneros]

I had such a good answer for this thread during the days that I had no internet access.  Until I think of what it was, another thought occured to me.  Gentiles generally aren't raised under the law with the few exceptions where the Ten Commandments are elevated in importance above New Testament teachings by some people in some circles.  As the law tends to magnify the triumph of the Cross by showing how much it takes away, ET magnifies the triumph of the Cross by showing how much it refuses to allow to happen :cloud9:

[alihaymeg]

It took a few very difficult questions to get me to see that there has to be more to it than I was being fed.

Just ask yourself this question:

If Jesus took on our punishment for sin, which is eternal punishment in Hell, then why is He not being tormented in Hell for all eternity?

I have yet to hear a good answer to this question from someone who believes in ET.

[WhiteWings]

Some say He is back in hell because of the verses that tell us Jesus and His angels are watching people being tormented in hell.
But not even that make sense because here Jesus is a spectator and not a victim.

Tormented usally is read as tortured. I did read it that way too (due to my poor English)
But after looking below the surface tormented also means "testing"
Selective quote from Strong:

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

I especially like the part of purity of gold. Like a refinary that also cleans the dirt out of gold.
And that aligns perfectly with:
Malachi 3:2   But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 3:3  And he shall sit as a refiner (uses fire) and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi (priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.