something more important

[anti_nietzsche]

I've been changing my thinking somewhat, when it comes to UR. It's not that I am embracing ET, it's not that I don't think anymore that all will be saved.

It's more of a shift of emphasis. I believe in Jesus - this is a faith. But UR is more of a hope for me, not something I can rely on.

To be clear, my view of God's grace is that it's massive. For example, I believe that babies and most mentally disabled people are all saved.

But while I doubt that any believer in Christ can honestly loose their salvation, there is the possibility that you loose your share in the salvation as it happens on this Earth. The book of Hebrews is quite clear on that, when it says that those who reject Christ have to await judgment.

And frankly, the belief in UR doesn't really end all troubles. The thing is, we aren't saved by whether we believe in UR or ET. This is really of no big importance. We are saved by faith in the Lord Jesus. And our life here only really becomes sanctified if we maintain a close relationship with the Lord and do as He says.

A real life of faith results in a sanctified life. And as much as you have such a sanctified life, as certain can you be of your salvation.

I am coming from a secular humanist background which I embraced for more than 22 years, practically all my life up until I found God. As such, it is extremely difficult for me to accept something like ET.

What I have come to is that there is a way to live with God without constant remembrance of ET or UR. I must really dive deep into salvation, not for the sake of then having a pleasing life, but for the sake of becoming who God wants me to become. For getting into the kind of life which to God is real, true, pleasing, right and fulfilling.


There's also another scripture:

Romans 10:4-9

For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing, for Moses doth describe the righteousness that [is] of the law, that, 'The man who did them shall live in them,' and the righteousness of faith doth thus speak: `Thou mayest not say in thine heart, Who shall go up to the heaven,' that is, Christ to bring down? or, `Who shall go down to the abyss,' that is, Christ out of the dead to bring up. But what doth it say? `Nigh thee is the saying -- in thy mouth, and in thy heart:' that is, the saying of the faith, that we preach; that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved,

We shall not go around saying we are saved, they are damned, he is saved, she is damned, or any of that. We do not gain salvation by believing that we are saved - instead we find salvation by faith in Jesus.

This is, I believe, the will of God, that all people come to believe in the faith that saves. Faith in Jesus is a work of the Holy Spirit - but I believe we must bring a faith in faith. Faith evidently is very important to God.

Let me illustrate this. Suppose there is a man who is ill. The doctor hears about it and seeks the guy out and finds him at home. But, no matter how much the doctor says, I am a doctor, I can help you, I love you, I will rescue you - the guy says no, I don't believe in all this, I am just terribly ill, I will die. This is extremely frustrating for the doctor. Anyone who wants to help someone and is refused knows this. It is very sad.

Now UR, as I understand it anyway, only differs when it comes to punishment. We merely say that the punishment for rejection of Christ is only temporal. Ok, I still believe that too.

But let me show you another scripture:

Matthew 18:23-35

"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents[g] was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.[h] He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

I think this is a classic that proves that hell is not eternal. But it is truly aionious - lasting eons. And according to all accounts in the bible, the suffering will be severe. The whole point is: we must trust in forgiveness, and in the same time, honestly forgive everyone likewise.

The message is: follow Jesus, and do as He says in the bible. Christ said He had food about which the disciples didn't know, the food of doing like God commanded Him. We really need that food too. It's the best and most nurturing food there is.

God will not care about whether you believe in UR or ET, that's not getting us anywhere. God cares about whether we want to live according to His precepts. That's always been the case. We must get serious with God, and start following Him. If we do that for real, God will not wait to pour out blessings on us. A good congregation, a good fellowship with other christians is vital for that.

So don't put your hopes on UR, or try to embrace ET for brownie points - get real with the good Lord Jesus Christ who gave His life for you!

[nightflight]

God will not care about whether you believe in UR or ET, that's not getting us anywhere. God cares about whether we want to live according to His precepts. That's always been the case. We must get serious with God, and start following Him. If we do that for real, God will not wait to pour out blessings on us. A good congregation, a good fellowship with other christians is vital for that.

So don't put your hopes on UR, or try to embrace ET for brownie points - get real with the good Lord Jesus Christ who gave His life for you!

If UR isn't *the* Gospel, then I'm sunk.  Because then, I can only count on God as much as he can count on me.  If I cannot be sure that he will have the last word (and that last word being love and mercy), then what you have is a recipe for despair. 

[martincisneros]

I understand what you've said thus far, anti_nietzsche, even if some won't.  I've had a total change in emphasis over the last couple of years too, with a Holy Spirit led move towards emphasizing "conformity with the image of Jesus Christ."  UR never loses it's place, it's healing power, it's power to shatter religious pride, etc.  There are many times when nothing else will do as far as both what to share and to dwell upon.  But if we're not becoming like the Jesus that we're seeing through UR, then what's the point?  We're all damned aiona ton aiona if we don't ultimately move towards what UR calls us all towards.  Not every line in St. Paul is UR.  Much of it is about being changed from glory to glory.  UR has a central undeniable part.  Christianity has soooo many treasures to become and to share with the Church and with the world that I sincerely hope you're not given too much of a hard time for having posted this.

[anti_nietzsche]

Thanks for the input, you two.

The thing is, the eternal life which we are supposed to get from God, is life with Him, according to His precepts. We are required to accept God's morality, for example we still shall not commit adultery or get angry about our brethren. We need to live in a way that keeps touch with God. We are told to receive the sacraments in the church, we must ask for and receive forgiveness many times in our lives.

UR as I understand it has no problems with that. It merely teaches that sooner or later everyone will be brought into such a kind of life.

So why not starting with it now? Seriously, if UR is true and there is redemption beyond the grave, you will still have to embrace the kind of life that God gives. Why waiting? Why only embracing the thought that all be saved, when this salvation knocks at your door in the now?