Dear Artic - AKA "Challenger"

[firstborn888]

Hey there,
   You mentioned a few months before your 'de-conversion' from UR that some people at your work were really making your life very difficult. Then I noticed in your mychurch blog, right after your embracing (re-embracing?) of ET, that you mentioned that there were just some folks you didn't want to spend eternity with.
   This (to me) was a very telling statement. It seems that a root of bitterness has taken hold and turned you back to the dark side? 
   You were always a humble soul here and even now show those same traits of honesty and straight forwardness, but now you have embraced the fear and wrath and condemnation of mainstream evangelicals who turn God's plan into an eternal horror movie, a nightmare that never ends.
    Punishment that never ends and that has no remedial purpose would be absolute insanity and cruel beyond comprehension. No one on this planet with a conscience can explain to me how they will be all happy in heaven while their friends and loved ones writhe in agony forever under a merciless sentence given by a God who apparently planned all this from the beginning. Thank God that I know Him, and know He would never allow such a thing to happen.
    I pray that when you read scripture you would listen to your conscience and see where this root of bitterness has sprung up. It's just an assumption, that is, I'm not saying "God showed me this" but there seemed to be a parallel between the two events. If you think I'm off base with this - please still consider the rest of what I'm saying.
    There will be no complete peace until every son of Adam, the son of God is brought home safely - this includes you.

    Blessings,
    - Byron
   

[challenger]

Let me say firstborn888, there is going to be alot of needless suffering for billions of people whom find themselves thrust out or otherwise knew they were at odds and in rebellion with God when the resurrection takes place and the judgement occurs. I have never embraced ET, as you speak, I accept the translation "ages and ages" (ages and ages sounds like thousands upon thousands of years at least) until someone shows me differently. I'll accept all that scriptures has shown me. I accept that those whom go to the lake of fire are there for "their part", which is the "second death". But scriptures has shown that the wrath of God is not to be taken lightly at all. The message is still clear. The mission is to call people to repentance of sins and salvation thru the Lord Jesus Christ. The message to those whom have not accepted Jesus Christ is:

Hebrews 3:7  ¶Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11  So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12  Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Take heed, brethren, this isn't a game, it isn't something to be taken lightly, non-believers are coming to this forum and to us inquiring about the salvation of their soul. Take heed you speak correctly to them, make sure they know what judgement awaits those whom thumb their nose at the Lord Jesus Christ's mercy and continue in outright rebellion to him.

As for the folks whom I didn't want to spend eternity with, yes, you are correct, a wicked soul shall be utterly destroyed by hells fires, they shall endure the "second death", this is a scriptural fact brother. It is clear, that the "fire" that we have here on earth wasn't hot enough for them to turn from their wicked ways. Take care brothers that you pass up the chance to truly convert one to Jesus Christ and thus they have to be subjected to these things that await the ungodly.

The message is clear to them whom do not yet believe:

If they will hear his voice today and not harden their hearts, then let them know:

Repent, and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for remission of your sins.

And you SHALL (thats a promise) recieve the Holy Spirit.

And the Holy Spirit will loose the bonds of iniquity and santify you and make you fit for every good work.

And continue in all good works, having the hope of the things to come and not shrinking back.

For we are not them who shrink back unto perdition, but those whom have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Enduring to the end.

[firstborn888]

As for the folks whom I didn't want to spend eternity with, yes, you are correct, a wicked soul shall be utterly destroyed by hells fires, they shall endure the "second death", this is a scriptural fact brother.

Again you are honest. Bless you for that. Now, you need to release them from all they have done to you, and then you too will be released.

Blessings,
- Byron

[laren]

Let me say firstborn888, there is going to be alot of needless suffering for billions of people whom find themselves thrust out or otherwise knew they were at odds and in rebellion with God when the resurrection takes place and the judgement occurs. I have never embraced ET, as you speak, I accept the translation "ages and ages" (ages and ages sounds like thousands upon thousands of years at least) until someone shows me differently. I'll accept all that scriptures has shown me. I accept that those whom go to the lake of fire are there for "their part", which is the "second death". But scriptures has shown that the wrath of God is not to be taken lightly at all. The message is still clear. The mission is to call people to repentance of sins and salvation thru the Lord Jesus Christ. The message to those whom have not accepted Jesus Christ is:

Hebrews 3:7  Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11  So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12  Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Take heed, brethren, this isn't a game, it isn't something to be taken lightly, non-believers are coming to this forum and to us inquiring about the salvation of their soul. Take heed you speak correctly to them, make sure they know what judgement awaits those whom thumb their nose at the Lord Jesus Christ's mercy and continue in outright rebellion to him.

As for the folks whom I didn't want to spend eternity with, yes, you are correct, a wicked soul shall be utterly destroyed by hells fires, they shall endure the "second death", this is a scriptural fact brother. It is clear, that the "fire" that we have here on earth wasn't hot enough for them to turn from their wicked ways. Take care brothers that you pass up the chance to truly convert one to Jesus Christ and thus they have to be subjected to these things that await the ungodly.

The message is clear to them whom do not yet believe:

If they will hear his voice today and not harden their hearts, then let them know:

Repent, and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for remission of your sins.

And you SHALL (thats a promise) recieve the Holy Spirit.

And the Holy Spirit will loose the bonds of iniquity and santify you and make you fit for every good work.

And continue in all good works, having the hope of the things to come and not shrinking back.

For we are not them who shrink back unto perdition, but those whom have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Enduring to the end.

AMEN. 


2Pe 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

2Pe 1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2Pe 1:11  For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


but there is more to the story,


Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

[SeekerSA]

Topic locked temporary.

[martincisneros]

Topic locked temporary.

I'm [advisedly] unlocking this one at the earliest moment that the boards will let me after posting this.  I agree with everything that's been shared on this thread thus far.  I do think that some Christian Universalists are overly soft on "whom the Lord loveth, He chasteneth."  But, I do have to say that Challenger's love has gone cold because iniquity has abounded.  I want to see if this thread can go any further towards the blessing and benefit of people that are lurking.  Several things are written by St. Paul, St. Peter, and St. Jude about not turning the grace of God into an excuse for licentiousness.  The only reason for such strong writings on those points would be because of the grace of God being given out so freely and so lavishly as has always been insisted by the Biblical Universalist.  Half of the New Testament would have never been written specifically along these lines if Amazing Grace wasn't on the absolutely ridiculous side in how superexcessive that it is from the perspective of a religious person.

[rosered]

   These are awesome posts, thanks so much  :HeartThrob:

[martincisneros]

I should probably wait until I'm more awake to comment on this, but I can either edit this comment later or add an additional post or two as needed, same as anybody else can.

Some of this, I know, is because of the rhetorical thing about "until God shows you..." but I'm really astonished that it took me as long to see through the statements about not abusing the grace of God.  The only reason for such pleadings is because there's actually grace under the New Testament.  Some people have never matured past seeing the threatenings. 

And I'm not talking about the genuine warnings about those that wind up being outsiders to New Jerusalem in the book of Revelation.  If a home in a walled city, according to the Law, is lost (through debt or whatever other area of negligence) and isn't recovered within one year (which some authors have made analogous to this life time), then it's not restored in the year of Jubilee.  So, although it's possible to be restored to God, it is possible to experience an enormous loss for the coming ages even when your relationship with God is restored. 

But I'm not talking about that right here, I'm talking about the stuff like in Jude's epistle, or 2Peter.  Some people get all haughty against the Charismatic movement, for instance, over 2Peter about "while promising them liberty, they themselves are bound by all of this mess, etc., etc."  But instead of focusing on preachers that are less than perfect and still have to walk this out the same as any of the rest of us, it says in 2Peter that 1st century preachers were promising liberty to people.  So, that's not some 20th century Pentecostal invention.  We're warned against turning the grace of God into an opportunity for licentiousness.  And people get all caught up with who's passing out the licenses to sin, when people are sinning without a license.  The warnings against abusing God's grace in the New Testament aren't spoken from a tyranical heart.  The understood subject is that there is grace greater than every need and every desire. 

All of the religious wars in the 20th century [in the United States] seem to have been over whether or not there was genuinely that much grace, and whether or not it was something that could be depended upon and -- gulp! -- received on purpose when sufficient light on the Gospel in those areas had dawned on one.  It's amazing to me how the only statement in the whole Bible on "falling from grace" is in Galatians, and contextually it's about trusting your own works more than the finished work of Jesus Christ.  Some people are quick to say that faith without works is dead, but at the same time, faith without the finished work of Christ is a total falling as lightning from heaven.  Peter said in 1Peter 4 that judgment must begin at the house of God.  And lest anyone later think that he's talking about the temple in Jerusalem, he goes on to say that if it begins with "us," then what will be the outcome of those who don't obey the Gospel?  The next couple of verses say that we need to entrust our souls to a faithful Creator and that the righteous are saved with difficulty.  The implication of the next statement, if you understand the whole of the Gospel, is that the ungodly and the sinner will be saved with difficulty as well. 

And obviously, the only reason for the crown of unfading glory given to the righteous, as it says a few verses later, is to distinguish those who were participants with Christ in the process of the Universal Restoration from those who were recipients of it's blessings after and only after they'd hit a very hard wall where their sins were concerned.  Some dispensationalists try to say that Peter's epistles are written exclusively to the Jews, but that's not a very careful reading of Peter's epistles.  1Peter 2:9-10 talks in the same language as Romans about those who had not received mercy now obtaining mercy.  Peter knew he was talking to a mixture of Jews and Gentiles in Pontius, Galatia, Cappadocia, Turkey (probably including the congregations that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written to, to which likewise St. Paul would minister to), and Bithynia.  1Peter 2:9 calls us a chosen race.  In St. Paul's language you could probably interpret this as an "elect."  You're an elect so that you can proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.  Then he goes on to urge us to abstain from fleshly temptations which are waging war against our souls.  And of course, that chapter ends in "by His stripes ye were healed," so the fleshly temptations we're to resist aren't just to lie, steal, and fornicate, but the whole spectrum of what we're redeemed from by the sufferings of Christ.  You think that sickness is tough?  What's really tough is to stay in the redemptive realities of the New Covenant and then to point a finger at that illness and rebuke it and demand that it unhand you because Jesus already bore it for you.  Talk about refusing the flesh any license!  It's amazing the amount of persecution that you'll get from fellow Christians that'll think that the humble thing to do is to lay down and be sick rather than to grab the Bread and Cup and say that Jesus gave His Flesh and Blood for the life of the world and you're a partaker in the fellowship of His sufferings rather than in the fellowship of your own, and you're not having this filthy illness in your life another minute! 

Unfortunately, most Christians never take the grace of God that far.  He said to come boldly to the throne of grace in the book of Hebrews, and most Christians won't if they don't feel like it.  What do feelings have to do with the finished work?  Many of us wake up occasionally wishing that the whole world would go to Hell.  That doesn't mean that it will just 'cause we woke up with a headache, or grumpy, or whatever. 

The Book of Ephesians talks about the grace of God in terms of riches.  We use dollars or euros or whatever in this realm.  But the heavens and the earth were created out of the riches of His grace.  The riches of His grace was the budget.  The riches of His grace was the budget for the crucifixion and resurrection as well.  How surpassing are the riches of His grace?  How exceeding are the riches of His grace?  The worst Hitler that human history has ever seen has never spent the first penny of the riches of His grace.  Some Calvinists blaspheme the riches of His grace by holding up what they consider to be the exceeding riches of sin as though sin were more costly than the first penny of the riches of God's grace.  This isn't just in history.  A couple of nights ago, I heard a radio broadcast from a few months ago where Eric Stetson was dialoging with a Calvinist.  And apparently there are still the type of Calvinists that you read about in Winchester's Dialogues.  Among other things, Elhanan Winchester had to refute the nonsense that Christ didn't die for all.  I wish that Eric had pounced on that a little harder than he did, but I'm not going to critique him on that on these boards.

The exceeding riches of His grace surpasses any need that your spirit could have.
The exceeding riches of His grace surpasses any need that your mind could have.
The exceeding riches of His grace surpasses any need that your body could have.
The exceeding riches of His grace surpasses any need that your finances could have.
The exceeding riches of His grace surpasses any need that your ministry could have.
The exceeding riches of His grace surpasses any need that your relationships could have.
The exceeding riches of His grace surpasses any need that your past, present, or future could have.
The exceeding riches of His grace surpasses any need that this world could have.
The exceeding riches of His grace surpasses any need that the Creation could have.
The exceeding riches of His grace surpasses any need that the devil could have!!!!!

Just drown yourself in every verse on the sufficiency (i.e. the grace) of God.  Twice in St. Paul's epistles the grace of God is called His sufficiency.  Take every verse on the grace of God that you can find and use the Scriptural definition for grace in place of the word "grace."  Meditate on the implications and ramifications of that for your life.

Come boldly to the throne of sufficiency so that we may obtain mercy and find sufficiency to help in a time of need. (Hebrews 4:16)

As each one has received a gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold sufficiency of God. (1Peter 4:10)

Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give sufficiency to those who hear. (Ephesians 4:29)

And now I commend you to God and to the word of His sufficiency, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. (Acts 20:32)

For you know the sufficiency of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich. (2Corinthians 8:9)

But Noah found sufficiency in the eyes of the Lord. (Genesis 6:8)

I could go on and on 'cause it just gets richer and richer than the above.


Not sure how many of you have read this, but as I was about to hit the "post" button, I suddenly had the strongest urge to post the link to this prophecy from 1679:

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew1/D1-1679Prophecy.html

[arcticmonster2003]

quote firstborn 888

Again you are honest. Bless you for that. Now, you need to release them from all they have done to you, and then you too will be released.

Its not that I haven't forgiven those particular people whom you were speaking of for the things they did, and if they asked for the coat off my back, I would give it to them. See, here's the thing, and I probably should have been a little more precise. If they do not convert, if they don't repent, turn to Jesus Christ, begin conforming theirselves to his image right now, accept the salvation that he has offered to them, then when shall they begin? They don't like righteousness, it is an abomination to them, their fruit has fully matured (now I am speaking about some specific individual people and not unbelievers as a whole), and its not good fruit! When a person so turns themselves over to wickedness, where their every thought, their every glance, their every action has lust for deceit, strife, envy, covetousness, need for power, lying, thieving, adulterous, slandering and such. You see, the fully matured wicked person loves wickedness and hates righteousness. And now, having fully conforming their soul to that wickedness, now, that is what their soul has become, purely wicked. Now, when I say I don't want to spend eternity with that wicked soul, I mean it, there is no peace when that is around you. An unconverted wicked soul is not pleasant to be around, it has nothing to do with bitterness or unforgivness on my part, I'll forgive them 1000 times, or more if that is what it takes, but I don't want to have to forgive them 1000 times a day for eternity, see what I mean, cause that means they are making me absolutely miserable every day for eternity! For instance, one of them was a great big tall guy who talked so loud you darn near needed earplugs to be around him (I'm dead serious, really, really loud), and his every though is how he might do some evil, and he will get right up next to you (like 6 inches away, keep in mind he's tall, so he trying to intimidate) and bellow at you at the top of his lungs, and he did this all the time. I forgive him for that, no problem, no bitterness, but I don't want someone 6 inches from my face yelling at me for the rest of eternity. See what I mean. There's no peace or reward in that, and thats not what God has for us. Now if that wicked person turn from his wickeness and be converted, that is another matter, but if not now, when, and why would they convert? They love wickedness, not righteousness, the plant being fully matured.

I think the scriptures offer quite a bit on this matter. All seeds, eventually, shall completely mature. We reap what we sow.

Revelation 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And, just to make clear, my conscience bearing witness, I have done nothing listed in Revelation 21:8 that I have not repented of and asked for forgiveness through the blood of Jesus, which means its not on my "slate", its wiped completely away through the blood of Jesus. I only say that because when I use revelation 21:8, normally someone tries to convict me of one of those sins, not taking into account that my slate is clear through repentance and the blood of Jesus Christ. As for the others, whom refuse to take hold of such a marvelous salvation offered through Jesus Christ, and love their wicked and ungodly ways, and consider righteousness an abomination, I do stand currently where Peter stood on the matter:

1 Peter 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

(I hope they shall not appear right next to me for eternity while their still in that wicked state, cause that would not be fun at all, I'd be their sport for eternity :mshock:)

See what I mean? I hope I don't just seem bitter and unforgiving, thats not it at all, if they be sanctified and made righteous then great, I rejoice with all of Heaven, but not as is. This is one of the things that salvation through Jesus Christ entails, our sanctification, and we love this sanctification and get mad when we fall short because we love righteousness and can't stand anything wicked in ourselves, but what of those whom hate righteousness and love their wickedness, being fully matured and given unto it completely? Where shall they appear? I tell you assuredly, not next to me for eternity in that wicked state making me miserable, but "without", not being able to enter into the gates of the city.

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Again, don't take my views the wrong way, I pray all the time that those particular people may be given the repentace that leads to salvation, and would rejoice without ceasing if they be saved. I DO NOT rejoice because they are wicked or because they are not going to have the right to enter into the gates of the city if nothing changes, not at all. Instead, I would rather warn them, if perhaps they might turn today. I cannot and will not tell them, "Oh, you'll be saved some day". That wouldn't be doing them a bit of good TODAY. Make any sense?

In spreading the Gospel, when asked by an unbeliever when they must convert to be saved, I do believe scripture allows me only one awnser by limiting that awnser to a certain day:

Hebrews 4:7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

[Craig]

Hello arcticmonster2003,

Welcome back.

Reading your reply, I believe there is some disconnect in what you thought you believed many "Universalists" believe. Though there are some who neglect the literal concept of a spiritual hell, there are just as many or more who know it exists. Now, just because it exists does not make it a place of wonton torture and endless punishment, if it exists it would exist for a purpose.

If they do not convert, if they don't repent, turn to Jesus Christ, begin conforming theirselves to his image right now, accept the salvation that he has offered to them, then when shall they begin?

According to Jesus, the disciples, and the apostles and found in numerous places, it begins in the resurrection of the wicked to aionios kolasis. You can find many places where aionios kolasis is explained, it means, "corrective punishment lasting as long as it lasts." Which in reasonable and logical understanding in conjunction with the nature of God, Who is Love, will last until the person is corrected. Much like this physical life, we do wrong, we receive the consequence of the wrong and learn not to do that mistake again, that is what happens to the wicked when they are raised to eternal punishment. To answer your question, that is when it shall begin.

I think the scriptures offer quite a bit on this matter. All seeds, eventually, shall completely mature. We reap what we sow.

Revelation 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Exactly, the second death. Though many will not agree with me on this, it does not change that I have not been refuted concerning it. It concerns the first death,  2 Corinthians 5:14 says, "Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died." Because Jesus Christ died for all mankind, all mankind has died. We have all experienced first death through Jesus Christ. As we keep reading verse 15, we have a choice, being that we are already considered dead because of Christ, live for Him or live for ourselves. Verse 15, "And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again." The one who continues to live for themselves are trying to save their lives and according to Jesus in Mark 8:35, "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." Second death, is death to the life we continued to live instead of living for Him who died and was raised again. Meanwhile, those who live to the Lord, live in the first death, do not lose this life, but get to keep it along with all it's benefits.

Paul explains this again in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15:
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

So here we have the same thing. The foundation has already been laid, it is Jesus Christ. This is not just for believers, this is for believers and unbelievers alike, all mankind, the world, and I can bring up hundreds of Scriptures that attest to this. Now, if someone takes into consideration the foundation and build properly, using quality materials that do not burn or pass away, when the fire comes they will not be hurt; in fact, what they built will be given to them as reward. At the same time, if someone does not take into consideration the foundation and build improperly, using poor materials that burn and pass away, when the fire comes they will be hurt; in fact, everything they built will be lost. Notice, that both he who build well and poor are saved, but the one who lost everything is saved but only as one escaping through the flames. He is quite hurt by this ordeal. We all reap what we sow.

So, this is my response to what you have provided for your reasoning. There is just little, because I could write more but it is what I am confident is found throughout all of Scripture repeatedly. Stories of Sodom being destroyed by fire, and later restored and profitable and called God's own. Stories of Egypt being destroyed by plagues, and later restored and profitable and called God's own. Stories of Assyria being destroyed by the wrath of God, and later restored and profitable and called God's own. Stories of Israel, destroyed by God's wrath, and later restored and profitable and called God's own. These are nations that have rallied against God and His Anointed one and whom God defeated, and in the end they are restored and the glory of these nations is brought into the Kingdom.

Craig

[arcticmonster2003]

quote SoTW

Exactly, the second death. Though many will not agree with me on this, it does not change that I have not been refuted concerning it. It concerns the first death,  2 Corinthians 5:14 says, "Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died." Because Jesus Christ died for all mankind, all mankind has died. We have all experienced first death through Jesus Christ. As we keep reading verse 15, we have a choice, being that we are already considered dead because of Christ, live for Him or live for ourselves. Verse 15, "And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again." The one who continues to live for themselves are trying to save their lives and according to Jesus in Mark 8:35, "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." Second death, is death to the life we continued to live instead of living for Him who died and was raised again. Meanwhile, those who live to the Lord, live in the first death, do not lose this life, but get to keep it along with all it's benefits.

I am one of those whom currently don't agree with that take on things SoTW, and the reason is that as far as a timeline goes, my current understanding on it is something like this

we live as a man or woman,
then we die once (fleshly death)
then the ressurection (life or damnation, seperated by 1000 years)
then the judgement
then, as part of the judgement, for some, the lake of fire, aka second death.

So in my understanding, in order to call the first death the second death would be impossible, cause inbetween those two is a resurrection, which I don't believe has happened.

2 Timothy 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

There is so much on this particular subject, but I do believe that before the second death can take place, the ressurection must take place, and in 2 Timothy 2:18 Paul was talking to people whom had already experienced that "death through Christ" by baptism, and yet he still says what he says there, namely, that they must not have considered that "the ressurection", and he said those whom said that the resurrection had already occured as in error. So I am positive, that if there were people saying that we were already living the second death, that Paul would have called that an error as well, cause the second death happens after "the resurrection". Now Christ was already resurrected at that time, the firstborn of many, but they didn't consider that the resurrection, as shown by 2 Timothy 2:18. See what I mean? No ressurection, No second death.

Or do you disagree with 2 Timothy 2:18. (remember, Jesus Christ had already died and was resurrected when Paul wrote this).

[Craig]

Hello Artic,

I am rather disappointed in your reply, it is not that you disagree, it is how you disagreed by not addressing what it was which I had presented. I am a person who values respect, what is the right thing to do and I give everyone a benefit of the doubt. It is not personal, but an all too common observation, that when it comes to talking about things about God people just will believe and think whatever they want to think. I believe we have the power of the will to go beyond our self, and reach out beyond these tendencies, but most of the time human beings are predictable and do what just makes them most comfortable for them.

I find it okay that you would disagree, but disappointing that you present no reason to disagree. Like many, if they did have a reason, I find that they don't seem to give it and it makes me wonder if they have any reason at all to believe what they believe. They make things like, how it was presented, how they perceive it was presented, or a number of subjective things except what is the objective reality of what is right, good and honest. If anyone knows what is good and does not do it, it is sin. What is the good and right thing to do when a person disagrees and is open to discussion about the disagreement? Would it not be to address the disagreement with reason, rather than presuming something and then refuting that which was never said or presented?

The mind is a wonderful thing, it has the ability to see patterns where there is none. Saying this, it is called a genetic fallacy, where as a person presupposes something, hears something, believes something, but never actually knows what it is they presuppose, heard or believe. The mind likes to trick us into believe what we just believed actually makes sense, but that is the mind, it likes to see patterns where it doesn't understand or know what it is looking at. Whether you are one person who disagrees with me or not, does not change the fact that you have not presented anything contrary or in disagreement with what I presented. Scripture still remains, and contradicts the belief of a perpetual hell.There is no exceptions to this, if a Scripture contradicts your belief, you can't just ignore it or condemn it to disagree, you must address it.

Let me say it plainly, you presupposed something I believe and refuted it. That is called a straw man fallacy. I believe most everything of mainstream Christianity, the only thing I do not believe is that Hell is perpetual. So don't associate my beliefs with someone who contradicts everything of mainstream Christianity, which I know you have problems with. I will wait for your actual reply to my post, and not some presumption, assumption, or imagination of what you thought you just saw to respond. If you think you addressed what I believe, I do not see it and it is not because I ignored it, it is because it isn't there.

[laren]

2Co 10:5  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;



Here are some verses that i think apply to first and second death:



second death:

2Co 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Co 11:3  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1Ti 6:5  Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

2Ti 3:8  Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 4:17  This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 2:18  Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Php 3:19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

1Co 5:5  To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

flesh
G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).



Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.


some thoughts on first death:

Col 3:12  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1Pe 3:8  Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Rom 12:2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rom 15:6  That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Eph 4:23  And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


2Co 10:5  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;


Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

[arcticmonster2003]

Ok, SoTW, I thought I did present a reason on why I disagreed, but though were both writing, yet not much actual communicating is going on. Though perhaps all of these things do need addressed eventually, it won't be today for me cause I just need to spend some quality time in the scriptures. I didn't want to get into an discussion on arguments against UR right now, just wanted to finish awnsering firstborn888 as best I could on his earlier question, but I really am not being blessed by these discussions right now at all, hence the apology. I do understand that since my beliefs are so contrary to most here that it shall be hard to write much without dispute, but I love you guys. Hope you don't mind if I back out for a bit on disputing about UR, cause this thread was started before I got a lesson in charity and conscience a couple of days ago. I'll let the stronger in faith battle it out for now, cause right now my conscience is easily offended.

Martin,

That was a pretty good post.

Laren,

Thanks for adding your post, I would love to discuss this further sometime, but I am going to opt out for now, its just not blessing me at all. In fact, I am feeling pretty comforted by the Spirit just for backing out of this particular discussion right now.


God Bless