Creation proven by science? OR Who has the Scientific Evidence?

[shawn]

There's quite a wide variety of interpretation/translations on the unicorn, huh?  I've been looking at it.  Young's actually translates unicorn in Ps. 29:6 as 'son of Reems', or some such thing.  I sure don't know what that means.   :umnick:

Gots 'ta look some more.  :)

I believe it's entirely possible that there was a horned creature that looked kinda like a horse...shoot why not.  But, ancient societies attributed magical powers to unicorns as well.  Dragons, mermaids etc are imo myths...mythological creatures.  Unless we have fossil record of these creatures existence then why bring it into a scientific conversation?  Just because ancient cultures wrote about, painted etc creatures doesn't mean they existed.  Did you ever draw creatures that didn't exist when you were a child?  I know I did.

[jabcat]

Actually, it's 'son of Reems'.  Anybody know what that means?  I'm not finding anything.  Did find this on unicorns in Ps. 29:6;

   
NASB 6 He makes Lebanon skip like a calf, And Sirion like a young wild ox.

KJV 6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.

ASV 6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young wild-ox.

DRB 6 And shall reduce them to pieces, as a calf of Libanus, and as the beloved son of unicorns.  

YLT 6 And He causeth them to skip as a calf, Lebanon and Sirion as a son of Reems,

Yeah, I certainly don't believe it had super powers.  The word unicorn is supposedly used like 6(?) times in the KJV...interesting.  I know it's hard to believe, but there are multiple opinions on it.  :laughhand:  Some argue it was was really a now-extinct horse-like creature with a long horn attached only in the skin, while others say ox, etc., and then there the 'son of Reems'...

[Beloved Servant]

Isaiah 13:
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

[jabcat]

What translation are you using, David?  It's interesting that whatever translation it is, it has satyrs in it.  I'd be curious about how some other things are translated in it.  I didn't know what a satyr was, so looked it up;  wiki says,

In Greek mythology, satyrs (Ancient Greek: Σάτυροι, Satyroi) are a troop of male companions of Pan and Dionysus — "satyresses" were a late invention of poets — that roamed the woods and mountains. In mythology they are often associated with pipe playing.

Maybe there's some other definition.   :dontknow:    I'll look.

[jabcat]

Wow, KJV, English Revised, Webster and maybe another translation uses satyr.  This really astounds me, honestly, since this is supposedly what a satyr is;

"THE SATYROI were rustic fertility Daimones (Spirits) of the wilderness and countryside. They were close companions of the gods Dionysos, Rheia, Gaia, Hermes and Hephaistos; and mated with the tribes of Nymphai in the mountain wilds."

Other translations are evil spirits, wild goats, and shaggy goats.  The ones that use satyr really catch my attention.  What else are they using...



English Standard Version (©2001)
But wild animals will lie down there, and their houses will be full of howling creatures; there ostriches will dwell, and there wild goats will dance.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But desert creatures will lie down there, And their houses will be full of owls; Ostriches also will live there, and shaggy goats will frolic there.

King James Bible
But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

American King James Version
But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

American Standard Version
But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and ostriches shall dwell there, and wild goats shall dance there.

Bible in Basic English
But the beasts of the waste land will have their holes there; and the houses will be full of crying jackals, and ostriches will have their place there, and evil spirits will be dancing there.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But wild beasts shall rest there, and their houses shall be filled with serpents, and ostriches shall dwell there, and the hairy ones shall dance there:


English Revised Version
But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and ostriches shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

Webster's Bible Translation
But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

World English Bible
But wild animals of the desert will lie there, and their houses will be full of jackals. Ostriches will dwell there, and wild goats will frolic there.

Young's Literal Translation
And Ziim have lain down there, And full have been their houses of howlings, And dwelt there have daughters of an ostrich, And goats do skip there.

Very interesting, the use of such terms in translation.  It makes me wonder about Hades too, as that's actually described as a mythological holding place.  I wonder where that actually fits in an accurate translation of the words of God...Oh well, that's another topic.

[shawn]

No Jab I think you are onto something.  Older translation seem to have terminology that comes from greek mythology.  Interesting to say the least.  This might make a great subject all in its own.  Maybe a break from this post would be in order?

[jabcat]

Lem'me think about it.  We'd have to be very careful to not cast doubt on the scriptures themselves, but really focus on the translational aspects.  Most could do that, it's just been such a sensitive subject around here I don't want to open any old closets and encourage any skeletons to pop out.   :laughing7:

I've had a bit on my mind.  Let me clear my head and go from there, maybe think about how to set it up, how it should be moderated, etc?   :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

Douay-Rheims Bible
But wild beasts shall rest there, and their houses shall be filled with serpents, and ostriches shall dwell there, and the hairy ones shall dance there:

:laughing7:

[jabcat]

Funny alright.  Actually, many humans fit that description.   :icon_rr:   :dsunny:

[shawn]

Lem'me think about it.  We'd have to be very careful to not cast doubt on the scriptures themselves, but really focus on the translational aspects.  Most could do that, it's just been such a sensitive subject around here I don't want to open any old closets and encourage any skeletons to pop out.   :laughing7:

I've had a bit on my mind.  Let me clear my head and go from there, maybe think about how to set it up, how it should be moderated, etc?   :thumbsup:

Jab you certainly know best in these situations.  I don't think it casts doubt on scripture but it does bring up some interesting translational issues with some of the older translations.  I don't think any of us would be here if we totally 100% agreed with the KJV translations.

[jabcat]

Good point, and I agree, translational issues are an issue, for sure.  I don't want to belabour it too much, but there's a significant past history of trashing and disrespecting the scriptures - doubting their inspiration, outright refuting them, etc...so if I seem leary sometimes, well, I am.   :wink:

Getting to the things that are honest, pure, and of a good report;  the current membership is a great group of believers.  Sure, we have things to work through now and again, but it's NOWHERE close to some things from 2-3 years ago.   :2thumbs:

No one can take credit.  It's only God empowering and enabling that's given us the gift of such a good place to gather.  Only by His grace.  God bless.

[shawn]

Good point, and I agree, translational issues are an issue, for sure.  I don't want to belabour it too much, but there's a significant past history of trashing and disrespecting the scriptures - doubting their inspiration, outright refuting them, etc...so if I seem leary sometimes, well, I am.   :wink:

Getting to the things that are honest, pure, and of a good report;  the current membership is a great group of believers.  Sure, we have things to work through now and again, but it's NOWHERE close to some things from 2-3 years ago.   :2thumbs:

No one can take credit.  It's only God empowering and enabling that's given us the gift of such a good place to gather.  Only by His grace.  God bless.

Then I understand your hesitancy.  I do not doubt the scriptures are 100% inspired in the original translations.  For me, that is the foundation and I have little to discuss with someone who believes otherwise.

[jabcat]

Good point, and I agree, translational issues are an issue, for sure.  I don't want to belabour it too much, but there's a significant past history of trashing and disrespecting the scriptures - doubting their inspiration, outright refuting them, etc...so if I seem leary sometimes, well, I am.   :wink:

Getting to the things that are honest, pure, and of a good report;  the current membership is a great group of believers.  Sure, we have things to work through now and again, but it's NOWHERE close to some things from 2-3 years ago.   :2thumbs:

No one can take credit.  It's only God empowering and enabling that's given us the gift of such a good place to gather.  Only by His grace.  God bless.

Then I understand your hesitancy.  I do not doubt the scriptures are 100% inspired in the original translations.  For me, that is the foundation and I have little to discuss with someone who believes otherwise.

Exactly.  Too many slippery slopes and vain imaginations of the foolish human mind can, and do, come into play.   (Thus the "Have You Looked Around Lately" thread.)

[WhiteWings]

Isaiah 13:
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

שׂער  /  שׂעיר
śâ‛ı̂yr  /  śâ‛ir
BDB Definition:
1) hairy (adjective)
2) he-goat, buck (noun masculine)
2a) as sacrificial animal
2b) satyr, may refer to a demon possessed goat like the swine of Gadara (Mat 8:30-32)

[WhiteWings]

Actually, it's 'son of Reems'.  Anybody know what that means?  I'm not finding anything.  Did find this on unicorns in Ps. 29:6;1) probably the great aurochs or wild bulls which are now extinct. The exact meaning is not known.

1) probably the great aurochs or wild bulls which are now extinct. The exact meaning is not known.

A masculine noun indicating a wild ox. It refers to a large animal with horns that are powerful offensive as well as defensive weapons (Num 23:22; Num 24:8; Psa 22:21 [22]).
^YLT
22 God is bringing them out from Egypt, As the swiftness of a Reem is to him;
^EBR
22 GOD having brought them forth out of Egypt, The very horns of the buffalo, are his:

^YLT
4 In whose hand are the deep places of earth, And the strong places of hills are His.

Hills - תּועפה
tô‛âphâh
BDB Definition:
1) eminence, lofty horns, summit
1a) eminence (of towering horns, peaks, silver)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H3286
Same Word by TWOT Number: 886a

Seems the translator were very confused/divided

Uni to me means one. An ox/buffalo has 2 horns. A rhino is one of the few with just one horn.

[WhiteWings]

Suggestion:

In whose hand are the deep places of earth, And the strong places of hills are His.

When I look up the actual word meanings I can retranslate the verse as:

In whose hand are the deep places of earth, And the eminence of hills are His.

Deep places has the meaning of searching. (deep thoughts?)

In whose hand are the searches of earth, And the eminence of hills are His.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless it means something like "search for His eminence/majestity"

Still no answer for the unicorn translation. But most seem to use bull/buffalo/ox. Those animals are similar.

But the word eminence seems to fit nicely in  psa 22:22
God is bringing them out from Egypt, As the eminence of a Reem is to him;

[WhiteWings]

While you were all asleep I found this:

UNICORNS

Is the word "unicorn" an erroneous translation in the King James Bible? The English word unicorn occurs nine times in the KJB, and is found in Numbers 23:22; 24:8; Deut. 33:17; Job 39:9,10; Psalms 22:21; 29:6; 92:10; and Isaiah 34:7. It is translated from the Hebrew word reem, which comes from a verb used only once, and found in Zechariah 14:10 "Jerusalem, and 'it shall be lifted up' and inhabited in her place." This animal is characterized by something lifted up or high and in a prominent position. It is very strong - "God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn." Num. 23:22. It is also used in a symbolic way in our Lord's prophetic prayer as recorded in Psalms 22:21 "Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns." There was no literal lion present when Christ died, but Satan, as a roaring lion, was present, for it was his hour and the power of darkness. There were no literal unicorns present either, but they symbolically or spiritually were present and assisted our Lord Jesus in His greatest hour of need.

This animal was untamable, as can be seen in Job 39:9 - 12, where God asks Job "Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?" This passage shows that the unicorn, whatever it was, could not be tamed at all, nor used in farming to plow the fields like an ox can. This, as well as other verses soon to be discussed, shows that many modern versions, like the NKJV, NIV, and NASB, are incorrect in their rendering of this word as "wild ox". The wild ox is nothing more than a "wild guess" and pure speculation on the part of the modern bible editors. A wild ox is like a wild horse. It can be tamed, by castration or placing a yoke on its neck, and bind him with his band in the furrow to bring home thy seed. God's question to Job is intended to produce a definite NO, not a 'Yeah, I can do that.'

Those who criticize the KJB's unicorns try to muster a group of "scholars" who give their opinion as to what this animal was. But listen carfully to their words. Henry Morris - "The Hebrew word translated unicorn is believed by most Hebrew scholars to refer to the huge and fierce aurochs, or wild ox now extinct." W. L. Alexander (Pulpit Commentary) "the reem is supposed to be the aurochs, an animal of the bovine species, allied to the buffalo, now extinct." Charles Spurgeon wrote "The unicorn may have been some gigantic ox or buffalo now unknown and perhaps extinct." William Houghon "we think that there can be no doubt (how is that for certainty !) that some species of wild ox is intended."

Eastons' Bible dictionary says: "The exact reference of the word is doubtful. Some have supposed it to be the buffalo, others the white antelope called by the Arabs rim. Most probably, however, the word denotes Bos Primigenius, which is now extinct."

All of this is pure speculation. The fact is the modern bible translators do not know what this animal was, and many of them say that whatever it might have been, it is now extinct. Wild oxen still exist, and they can be tamed and domesticated. In fact some bibles like Darby's, Rotherham's 1902 Emphasized bible and the Spanish of 1960 translate this word as "buffalo", while the Douay Rheims of 1610 read "unicorn" (Deut. 33:17) but the revised Douay-Rheims of 1821 and 1950 have "rhinoceros" (Deut. 33:17) but "unicorn" in some of the other verses.  Young's 'literal' translation shows that he simply did not know what the animal in question referred to, so he merely transliterated the Hebrew word, and did not translate it at all. His version consistently reads "the rheem", while the Ferrar Fenton translation done in 1910 had "bulls".  Let's see now...unicorns, buffaloes, rhinoceros, rheem and bulls.  Yep, all pretty much the same things, right? ;-) Whenever you hear the phrase "All scholars agree" you should know right away that the guy has no idea what he is talking about.

I recently discovered something that I think is very interesting of quite enlightening about how modern scholars are changing the definitions that words once had. I have in my study two different printings of the well known Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon. One is from 1887 and the other one is from 1976, which was a reprint of the 9th edition of 1940. The more modern Liddell and Scott defines the word monokeros as "a wild ox". However the 1887 edition gives only one definition of the word - A UNICORN!!!. Now, it should be obvious that Liddell and Scott themselves were not alive in 1976 so that they could suddenly change their minds about what this word meant. So who changed the definition of this word for future generations?



Using the Correct Definition

Unicorn means literally, "one - horned"; it was a one horned animal.  If you look in  Websters' 1828 Dictionary of the English Language for the definitions of these two words - unicorn and rhinocerous - here is what you find.


unicorn

U'NICORN, n. [L. unicornis; unus, one, and cornu, horn.]

1. an animal with one horn; the monoceros. this name is often applied to the rhinoceros.



2. The sea unicorn is a fish of the whale kind, called narwal, remarkable for a horn growing out at his nose.



3. A fowl.



fossil unicorn, or fossil unicorn's horn, a substance used in medicine, a terrene crustaceous spar.



Notice there is no mention of a mythical horse like creature.





rhinoceros
RHINOC'EROS, n. [L. rhinoceros; Gr. nose-horn.]



A genus of quadrupeds of two species, one of which, the unicorn, as a single horn growing almost erect from the nose. This animal when full grown, is said to be 12 feet in length. There is another species with two horns, the bicornis. They are natives of Asia and Africa.



Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
"The Reem, most probably denotes the Rhinoceros, so called from the horn on its nose. In size he is only exceeded by the elephant; and in strength and power inferior to none. He is at least twelve feet in length, from the snout to the tail; six or seven feet in height; and the circumference of the body is nearly equal to his length. He is particularly distinguished from all other animals by the remarkable and offensive weapon he carries on his nose; which is very hard horn, solid throughout, directed forward."

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown

"Israel is not as they were at the Exodus, a horde of poor, feeble, spiritless people, but powerful and invincible as a Reem - that is, a Rhinoceros." 



Here is a very interesting 7 minute video showing the direct relationship between the words unicorn and rhinocerous and why the King James Bible uses the word unicorn to refer to this animal. 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzhThugPfY8



The King James Bible is not at all alone in translating this specific Hebrew word as unicorn. In fact the word unicorn is found in Wycliffs translation 1395, Tyndale 1525 (he translated part of the Old Testament before he was killed), Coverdale's Bible 1535, Taverner's Bible, the Great Bible, the Bishops Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1599, the so called Greek Septuagint version, the Italian Diodati 1649, Las Sagradas Escrituras of 1569, as well as the Spanish Reina Valera of 1602, all of which preceeded the King James Bible. Today, other more modern versions that contain the word unicorn are the Spanish Reina Valera of 1909, the Spanish Las Sagradas Escrituras 1999 edition "unicornio", the 2004 Spanish Reina Valera Gomez bible,  the French Martin 1744 "licornes", Luther's German 1545 (Einhorn) and the updated Luther German Bible of 1912 "einhornshomer", the Russian Synodal Translation 1876,  the Modern Greek translation of the Old Testament "monokeros"(not to be confused with the so called LXX), the Catholic Douay version of 1950, Darby's translation of 1870, Brenton Translation 1851, English Jubilee Bible 2000, The Word of JAH 1993, the 21st Century King James Version 1994, the Third Millenium Bible 1998, Daniel Webster's translation of the Bible 1833,  Lamsa's 1933 Bible translation of the Syraic Pecrapta, and in the 1936 edition of the Massoretic Scriptures put out by the Hebrew Publishing Company of New York. 

The Modern Greek Bible (totally different from the so called Greek Septuagint) has the word monokeros in these same Old Testament passages, and if you look at a Modern Greek dictionary, the word simply means a UNICORN! Here is an online Greek dictionary with both Greek and English.  http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon   Just type in the word monokeros for Greek to English, or on the other side (English to Greek)  type in the word unicorn.  There you will clearly see that the way to say unicorn is this same Greek word, and the Modern Greek Bible has unicorns in these same Old Testament passages.

Here is what the Modern Greek translation looks like in Job 39:9-10 where the unicorn is mentioned twice - Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?  Canst thou bind the unicron with his band in the furrow?

Job 39:9  Θελει ευχαριστηθη ο μονοκερως να σε δουλευη, η θελει διανυκτερευσει εν τη φατνη σου;
Job 39:10.  Δυνασαι να δεσης τον μονοκερων με τον δεσμον αυτου προς αροτριασιν;





The Greek Septuagint (LXX). Regardless of when you think this Greek translation of the Old Testament was made or by whom, this version is chock-full of satyrs, devils, dragons, and unicorns. The word unicorns is found in Numberbs 23:22; Deuteronomy 33:17; Job 39:9; Psalms 22:21; 29:6; 78:69, and 92:10.

Some King James Bible critics hypocritically tell us that the KJB translators followed the so called Greek Septuagint (LXX) when they translated the word as "unicorn".  It is both hypocritical and false.  Hypocritical because all modern versions like the NASB, RSV, ESV, NIV frequently reject the clear Hebrew readings and follow one of the various LXX readings, and  false because in Deut. 33:17 where the KJB and others rightly have the plural "unicorns" the KJB margin says: "HEBREW - an unicorn". Notice that it does NOT say "LXX - an unicorn".

One other verse that puts the lie to the modern versions use of "wild ox", besides the reference in Job, is Psalms 92:10. 'But my HORN shalt thou exalt like the HORN of AN UNICORN." The NASB, NIV, NKJV read: "You have exalted my HORN like THAT OF A WILD OX." Now, I ask you a simple question. How many horns does a wild ox have? Not one, but two.

Psalm 92:10 Wycliffe 1395 - And myn horn schal be reisid as an vnicorn; and myn eelde in plenteuouse merci.

Bishop's Bible 1568 - But my horne shalbe exalted lyke the horne of an vnicorne: for I am annoynted with excellent oyle.

Coverdale 1535 - But my horne shalbe exalted like the horne of an Vnicorne, & shal be anoynted with fresh oyle.

Geneva Bible 1599 - But thou shalt exalt mine horne, like the vnicornes, and I shalbe anoynted with fresh oyle.

Third Millenium Bible 1998 - But my horn shalt Thou exalt like the horn of a unicorn; I shall be anointed with fresh oil.

Some would criticize the KJB in Deut. 33:17 where Moses is blessing Israel. He says: "His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his HORNS are like the HORNS OF UNICORNS: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth." The Oxford and Cambridge KJB editions say in the marginal note: Hebrew - unicorn. This is a masculine singular absolute noun. Yet it is rendered as a plural "unicorns" not only by the KJB but also by Lamsa's 1936 translation of the Syriac Pecrapta - " his horns are like the horns of unicorns",  Websters Bible 1833, the Third Millenium Bible 1998 and the 21st Century KJV 1994. Those who criticze the KJB for rendering a singular noun as a plural are showing their selective use of the Hebrew language.

All Bible translations frequently translate a singular masculine absolute noun as a plural. In this same book of Deuteronomy, in just the first 10 chapters, the NKJV, NIV and NASB do this very thing. Deut. 8:15 "nachash" & "aqrab" (singular nouns) are translated by all as "serpents & scorpions", in Deut. 1:19, 20 "har" is mountains in the NKJV, Deut 1:1, 2:37 "bahar" and "har" as hills or mountains in NKJV, KJB, and NIV. Deut. 1:23, 35 and in many many other places "ish" as "men"; Dt. 3:3 "sarid" as survivors in NIV, NKJV; Deut. 5:15 "ebed" slaves in NIV, Deut. 7:9 "dowr" generations in NIV & NKJV; Deut. 8:8 "rimmown" as pomegranates in NASB, NIV and NKJV; Deut. 9:ll, 18, 25 "layil" as "nights" in NASB, NIV and NKJV; and Deut. 10:19 "gare" as strangers or aliens in NIV, NKJV, and NASB.

So the person who tries to attack the KJB for rendering a singular noun as a plural, just doesn't know what he is talking about. Because of the "horns" plural, the KJB has made the singular noun as plural in the context. There are many words like this in English which can be either singular or plural like: deer, sheep, moose, elk, fish and trout etc.

The historic rabbinic commentary (Ibn Ezra, Radaq, Rashi, Saadi Gaon et. al.) views on Deuteronomy 33:17, and the re'em question in general support the King James reading in Deuteronomy.  As an example Radaq (Kimchi) is considered, historically, as the single most important Hebrew linguist and grammatical expert.  Go to the link (it is still active as of Feb. 2010) and scroll down to Discussion #115 where he talks about the Lion and the Unicorn.

http://britam.org/proof3.html

Rabbi David Kimchi (Safer HaShorashim, RAEM): His horns are like the horns of unicorns (Deuteronomy 33:17). "It is intended to mean that his horns are like the horns of (several) unicorns for the Raem has only one horn."

The Unicorn was a one horned animal of some kind. I don't think we know for sure what it was, but it was not a wild ox as the NKJV, NASB, NIV have it. It could not be tamed (Job 39: 9, 10) and Psalm 92:10 is speaking of a one horned animal, while the "wild ox" of the NKJV, NIV, NASB has two horns; not just one.

A Bible believing Christian at one of the online Christian forums had this to say:  "In every case the unicorn is mentioned in the bible it is referring to a spiritual animal. Psalm 22:21 is one example. Whatever a unicorn was it didn't matter because the word is used symbolically in scripture. It pertains to something in the spiritual realm. In 1611 England the unicorn was well known to be a symbolic mythical creature representative of strength and power. The translators knew this therefore the word fit for what the text demanded. Perhaps a unicorn is some kind of animal in heaven."     

One definite possibility is the Indian rhinoceros, of which there are still about 2000 alive today. They used to cover large areas, but are now limited to India and Nepal. They weigh about 4,500 pounds, can run at over 20 miles an hour; they have one large horn on the snout and their scientific name is Rhinoceros UNICORNIS.

In the original 1611 edition of the KJB, the editors placed "or Rhinoceros" in the margin of Isaiah 34:7 where it reads: "And the unicorns shall come down with them." It is still in the modern editions of the KJB. So the KJB editors were not ignorant of the possibility of the unicorn being a rhinoceros. I do not know, nor does any one else but God, what the unicorn was or is.

Jerome in the 4th century translated the Hebrew word Reem as Rhinocerotis five times and Unicornis four times. Jerome studied Hebrew under the Jews before he began his translation of the OT, thus it is from the Jews directly that Jerome derived his definitions.

The Unicorn was a one horned animal of great strength; it could not be tamed, and it is always used in a good and positive sense in Scripture. The KJB is not in error by translating this word as unicorn, but the modern versions are just taking a wild guess with their "wild oxen" and the other scriptures show their wild guess to be wrong.
Will Kinney

[jabcat]

Very interesting stuff.  Good job.

[WhiteWings]

There is more but it requires a bit of study from the reader.
I have Oxford dictionary the also gives little timelines of and etymology of words. Plus quotes from works from that time.
My thought is we should only look at (pre) 1611 defenitions because that's when the KJV was written.
Click the link below to see the page from Oxford. Its formatting is to complex to copy and paste on this forum.
Oxford English Dictionary

[WhiteWings]

Question: What does the Talmud tell us about unicorns?

Answer: Thank you for your excellent question. There are several references in the Talmud and other Torah literature that may be interpreted as unicorns.

The Talmud in Zevachim 113b mentions an animal called "Orzila" in Aramaic, which is considered the same as the great horned mammal known as "Re'em" in many places in the Bible (Job 39:9-12; Ps. 22:21, 29:6; Num. 23:22, 24:8; Deut. 33:17, et al). The Talmud says that this animal was too large to fit into Noah's ark, but survived the Flood by grasping onto the ark with it's horn. This animal is described as a wild kosher animal.

The Talmud in Chullin 60a tells us that Adam sacrificed a one-horned mammal. If it was used as a sacrifice, it was most likely a domesticated kosher animal.

The Talmud in Chullin 59b mentions a mammal called a "Keres" which has one horn and is kosher to eat.

The Talmud in Shabbos 28b describes the "tachash" mentioned in the Bible (Exodus 26:14 et al) as an animal used for its skins, particularly to make the curtains of the Tabernacle, as a colorful unicorn that only appeared at that location in the desert for Moses to use for the Tabernacle, and afterward became extinct in that location. It is also assumed to be a kosher mammal.

There are also references in the Kabbalah to unicorn like animals living under the earth. This can be found in the Zohar Parshas Bereishis and in the Sefer Chesed L'Avraham concerning the "Sod Sheva HaAratzos" – "The Secret of the Seven Lands".

All the best,
Rabbi Kolakowski
Richmond, VA
If the blue part is correct then this may be of some use:
"According to these, anything that chews the cud and has a cloven hoof would be ritually clean.

It would for example a Unicorn can't be  type of horse because a horse has no split hoof.

The Indian Rhino's scientific name is: Rhinoceros unicornis.
Couldn't it be that unicorn is a classification instead of an animal.
Just like a biped isn't a single animal but a classification/group.

[WhiteWings]

(http://www.zootorah.com/VirtualTour/Oryx%20drawing.jpg)Is the Arabian oryx our 2 horned unicorn....?

A problem exists with the Scriptural source for the unicorn. Although the Septuagint defines the re'em as an animal with a single horn, Scripture itself states that it possesses more than one horn:

The horns of aurochsen were extremely strong. It would therefore seem preferable to identify the re'em as the Arabian oryx.

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Rhino's never lived in Biblical lands. The oryx did......

Now I'm gonna find an article that proves the unicorn has 7 or 10 horns  :laughing7:

[shawn]

WW:While you were all asleep I found this:

Pfft...sleep is for the weak.   :bigGrin:

Nice finds!

[WhiteWings]

WW:While you were all asleep I found this:

Pfft...sleep is for the weak.   :bigGrin:

Hi NightCrawler  :winkgrin:

Nice finds!

But not very conclusive. But right now Oryx is high on my list.

[micah7:9]

H7214
רם    רים    ראים    ראם
re'êm  re'êym  rêym  rêm
reh-ame', reh-ame', rame, rame
From H7213; a wild bull (from its conspicuousness): - unicorn.
H7213
ראם
râ'am
raw-am'
A primitive root; to rise: - be lifted up.
Job 39:9 Will the Wild–Ox be pleased to be thy servant? or lodge for the night by thy crib?(Rotherham and ASV)

[WhiteWings]

Are you saying all Chistmas paintings are wrong and we need to replace the ox with an unicorn? :winkgrin:

Seriously the ox (and similar animals) are in several translations.
If Job really points toward the stable/cave of baby Jesus we have the name of the 'unicorn' in both Hebrew and Greek. Then ox seems a good choice. An ox is a farm animal that belongs in stables/inhabited area's. The oryx I don't know but it looks an animal that's useless for farming and only exists/existed in the wild....?