can't get over the bible threats

[anti_nietzsche]

Hi there,

I've posted at this forum sometimes, and tried to believe in UR, but it seems like it's getting me nowhere. I have trouble reconciling the bible with the UR message.

There seems to be a basic contradiction. I admit that UR would be pure love and happiness ... but I don't find God to be spreading such a pure love in the bible. Just consider the Israelites ... God consumed so many of them in the desert. Consider the strange passage in which God wants to kill Moses. Consider the book of Job.

Oddly enough, even though Job in some ways seems to reflect the epitome of God's (occasional) ignorance of suffering, it also displays a way out. I mean the fact that God at the end of the book recommends Job's speech to be true and proper, and the speech of his "friends" to be untrue. In the end Job is declared righteous and through an offering atones for his friends' failure. And it seems like Job is happy with God in the end ... and I would like to listen to Job, and not simply, unwisely, go my own way.

But still, the bible can be such a heavy book. Consider how God punished David for his murder and adultery by killing his child. Consider the flood ... God was merciless towards millions.

Sometimes I think CG Jung is right who writes about a contradiction in God's being wherein you find extreme love (the cross), and extreme hatred (damnation). I know it looks a bit ridiculous when a man tries to be God's psychologist, but, well, the stuff is there. Sometimes God does awful things. For example, there is the example of a prophet in the bible whom a priest forbids preaching. God's punishment is to let the wife of this priest commit adultery on the street. That's the scary stuff. God bringing people into sin as a punishment ... I mean, there is correction that will better people in the end, without really harming them though, and there is correction that will permanently damage people.

I see such a kindness of God in the first pages of the book of Jeremiah where God tells of His desire to do good to people so that they might call Him their dear Father. I'm not ignorant of this. But in the same time there is so much dark stuff in the bible that coexists with the kindness, punishments of a severity and mercilessness that just can't be endured really. Consider Uza .. that guy wants to protect the arc from being damaged and gets struck down dead. Terrible. Consider Hananias and Sapphira ... killed for lying when perhaps some serious and earnest talking would have straightened them out too.

When I look at the Earth I see that God is good. The sky, the sea, the mountains ... they all sing praises to God. But how do I reconcile that with this "dark side of the moon"?

I had a vision some months ago. I saw before my eyes a refreshment kerchief, still in its package. I looked and the package looked like the bible, two pages with two rows of text on it. I looked at the pages and read, "Cause and effect", then the package opened and a woman came and took the kerchief and refreshed herself with it.

This seems to imply, there are certain mechanics in the world which function like laws, almost automatically, impersonally, seemingly neutrally. If you sin, God is not going to punish you, life will punish you, you will become impure, you will BE corrupted. When I stick my hand in a barrel full of acid I should not be surprised to have a damaged hand afterwards. Likewise, if I sin all the time, my soul will be damaged. The bible records God explaining sin to Cain, how it desires to destroy you. If you understand the whole topic of sin and punishment in this way, then you will find how God punishing sin isn't the same as the law of sin and death ... God wants us to get scared of punsihment so that we don't sin and then suffer effects from the law of sin and death.

The tough stuff is there in the bible. And honestly, even though I want UR, I have to take into account the consideration that it might not be there. Jesus speaks about completely disowning those who disown Him. He will deny even knowing them.

It's frightening.

[Paul Hazelwood]

You are a normal seeker, being realistic and understanding the effect words can have on a person.

Go day by day, when the words of the bible hit you as fear, where do you lay the understanding of God?   

Do you lay it on the religious phrases and doctrines  of men, including those under the unbrella of UR or the spirit in which the bible was written.

If God is declared love then no word in the bible can be apart from Love, any message that rips love out of a word in the bible is false.

[anti_nietzsche]

Well, I suppose that depends on how you understand love.

Think of romantic love between a man and a woman. If one of them betrays the other, it might happen too that the other gets mad and buys a gun.

Jealousy can be a terribly strong emotion. And the bible plainly records God as being jealous.

It wouldn't mean God has no love, it would mean that His love is intense and strong and very passionate.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well, I suppose that depends on how you understand love.

True, for instance Jesus Christ is a result of God's wrath.

Think of romantic love between a man and a woman. If one of them betrays the other, it might happen too that the other gets mad and buys a gun.

I believe we can know that God does not react like a man.

Jealousy can be a terribly strong emotion. And the bible plainly records God as being jealous.

I also believe we can know God's jealousy is not going to appear as a mans.

It wouldn't mean God has no love, it would mean that His love is intense and strong and very passionate.

Indeed.

[NinjaWizards777]

I struggle with the "angry, flood-maker" side of God myself. But heres just my honest take on it:

1. its important to note that different people in different times wrote down the various books/events of the bible. So to say that no personal bias or perception went into the account of such events, would seem naive(not that you are saying that, but just pointing that out). Like in various parts of the OT when God supposebly told the isrealites to "kill the women and children" or whatever...is that really what God told them, or was that merely how they interpreted something from God? Like I really have to question that.

2. Its one thing to off a human from this life, its a whole nother thing to torture that human or separate it from all that is good for all existence without hope. There is a large chasm of morality separating them to me. Regardless, I dont really have so much of a problem with Gods anger if it is really only "but for a moment" and "joy comes in the morning"(Psalms 30:5). Allowing a human to cease from this life (for sin or what have you) can still hold example to others still living in this life to help us learn and grow. This seems cruel initially however if the human(s) allowed to die are ultimately reunited with God like the rest, and are thankful for the suffering they endured which ALLOWS our appreciation of good and God...then ultimately it is a very good thing. Gods anger, our disobedience, our punishment...all seems apparently to play a part in bringing about the things God wants in us like unforced love, appreciation and allowing himself to have mercy and bring salvation because of the wrong he allowed us into.

I dunno if Im just talking out of my butt, but those are just some things Ive thought about. Doesnt necessarily deal with the whole problem

[Raggedy Anne]

Surely we all struggle with fear to some extent.  However, sometimes it helps to go read all the scriptures in which we are told "do not be afraid".
The bible is a book that both makes afraid and comforts - because we have two natures.  We are by nature "children of wrath" but by the Spirit we
are beloved children of God.  Two in one - awaiting perfection as the outer man perishes - the new inward man is being renewed.   It's an awesome
and strange journey we're on.   Take courage and be of good cheer.  Jesus has overcome the world.

Peace -
Anne

[scotr]

ninja,

Yer so weird.  :grin:

Can I say that?  I mean we don't know each other and I'm new and you're not but dang it.  I really get a kick out of you.

On this particular thread I think you are dead on.

scot

[scotr]

"The tough stuff is there in the bible. And honestly, even though I want UR, I have to take into account the consideration that it might not be there. Jesus speaks about completely disowning those who disown Him. He will deny even knowing them.

It's frightening."



Frightening.  Yes it is isn't it.  But it is not an essential point of doctrine.  If I'm any 'kind' of christian it is some variety of 'Lewisian' christian as C.S. Lewis is a master to me.  As George MacDonald was a master to him.  We just don't know if UR is absolute.  We can hope.  It IS a wonderful hope.  I love it.  It comforts me.  It gives me peace and strength.   It matters little to me if it is doctrine.  So it was with C.S. Lewis.  It is a wonderful hope.  It is most probably fact.  It won't save you or condemn you.   It surely assists one to love his fellow man.  No more 'us' and 'them'.  You suddenly know who is your brother.  Its the guy in your face.

[aspiring son]

I received this last night, which makes me know this is no coincidence.

I was in bed last night, thinking of the differences of the OT carnage and the Jesus of the NT. And then God showed me, the answer lies in, of course, Jesus.

We think of those women and children and all the "ites" slaughtered in the OT as God's vengeful killings, on whom his wrath was poured, but NOBODY in the history of the world had the wrath of God poured out on them like Jesus.

In his fully human state, our Lord literally felt all pain and suffering any of us could ever feel.

He was betrayed, humiliated mentally and physically. Let's not let religion block our minds either; he was stripped naked, which can be considered molestation. And all of this he felt in the span of hours. In the OT, they were commanded to wipe out the tribes. Being skilled warriors, they knew how to kill and kill swiftly. They did not have time to torture or suffer a woman or child. So whether the flood, or fires of Sodom, or the swords of Israel, they pale in comparison to the magnitude of suffering Jesus bore.

and in his state after, he preached to the dead (1 pet 3 19)
And said that in his great suffering, he will draw all men to himself John 12 -32

Death is one of the moswt sobering things in life, but when we put things in the perspective of Jesus, who bore more than any of us could bare, so that all of us, whether saint or sinner would receive life after this age is over, he has shown all of us mercy, despite the ways in which we die.

Grace and peace,

Brandon

[Beloved Servant]

For the JOY set before Him He endured the Cross.
We are His joy!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, we are! Blessings....

[aspiring son]

For the JOY set before Him He endured the Cross.
We are His joy!

We think of God not sparing folks in the bible, but let us remember.. He did not spare his son! And it was for those slain in Sodom, the floods, Charles Manson, you and me.

God is awesome