I think (almost) no Christian denomination intentionally ignores parts of the Bible.
The whole letter is based on nothing so can be answered by the empty word "wrong".
His only good point is about the flood.
QuoteI was wondering if you like to answer questions about what you have chosen to believe and not believe or should I say no longer believe about God and the Bible?
Five things, in summary;
1. I no longer believe God is feeble, or desperate, or otherwise at an inconvenience or disadvantage in his Salvific work; I believe now that through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ; (who is the way, the truth, and the life, through whom none may come to the Father but by Him, nor could they but by Him come to the Father) God is reconciling all to himself, making all sinners repent, clean, and right with him, healing and providing for all the needy both the just and the unjust alike. That every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess worshiping him in Spirit and in Truth to the glory of the Father.
2. I no longer believe God is limited in his omnipotence, or his infinite being to or by the finite powers or being of Man. I no longer believe God is limited in his omnipotence to circumstances. God is fully in control as he whims and wills - and his will is ever for the betterment and expression of unfathomable benevolence towards all of his Creation. Such benevolence that he will not leave any sinner in his sin, but will work diligently and speedily with Patience, Mercy, Grace, Justice, and Love to reconcile the sinner back to himself through the blood and person of his Son, Jesus Christ. Every prodigal will return home. Every lost sheep will be found. Every silver coin will be retrieved. God made no one worth nothing, God made no one he did not love more than the father loved his prodigal, than the shepherd cared for his sheep, than the woman desired her coin. God's love is infinite, and his justice requires that his love be satisfied, his grace make the sinner right, and his mercy ensure his patient benevolence is triumphant.
3. I no longer believe God is a "house divided against himself". I believe that God is One in his attributes, and in his expressed Godhead. That Jesus, God the Son is not against God the Father, nor The Spirit. I no longer believe that God's attributes are contradictory to one another, nor that they are exercised in separation from one another in his dealings with man. I no longer believe God is a man of many masks, but a consistent Lord who transcends all expression in his unchanging, consistent, unified, unanimous nature. I believe that God's love and justice are not attributes that act against one another, neither his mercy and justice, neither his grace and justice, nor even his wrath and his mercy, or his wrath and his grace. I believe that God is One and so God who is Love and Justice is One; and so therefore Love and Justice are One, just as Wrath and Grace are One, just as The Son and The Father are One.
His Grace, Mercy, Love, Wrath, Justice, Righteousness, Holiness, Goodness, Gloriousness, all are One, for He is One.
4. I no longer believe God died in vain, that his work on the cross which defeated Death and Sin has provided not only the propitiation for our transgressions, but has expressed the full covenant of God that he will reconcile all to himself, that none shall remain captive to Death and Sin, that none shall be out of God's holy reach, his arm mighty and long to save. I believe that God shall fulfill all his will, do all he has planned, and obtain the full victory of redeeming all of his creation, at least all mankind who without any choice of their own was born into a sinful fallen world, as sinful fallen people, prone to sinful fallen thoughts and sinful fallen actions; who are subject to futility, ignorance, rebelliousness, and callousness merely by being born sinners, through no fault or choice of their own being born sinners. Though we are accountable for our deeds having wills to exercise, our wills are imperfect and like our very selves are prone to sinful fallen willings. Yet by Grace through Faith God will reconcile every sinful fallen creature, raise them up, make them clean, and rejoice with them in the final moment where Sin and Death are destroyed forever; and all are free having full knowledge of the truth, the truth who sets the captives free, and sets them free indeed. I believe God shall be 100% victorious over 100% of all that he has made, 100% of the time, after 100% of his due purpose, desire, will, and counsel, for 100% benevolent purpose.
5. I no longer believe God is defeated by Death, Sin, or the wills of men or devils, or any rebellious being. That they (man at least) will not remain in rebellion, which is resistance of God, but will swear their allegiance to him, bow to him, embrace him, love him, cherish him, worship him, and partake of him as they were made and meant to do so from before the foundation of the world, the world of which God so loved that he gave his only begotten Son to die for it, so that in dying for it and rising again for it, save it from everything that separates it from God.
QuoteThose of you who have chosen to discount much of scripture and become a
universalist
seem to have made your mind up and don't want to be confused with the facts.
It was seeing it laid out in the Scriptures that lead me to embrace it.
QuoteIn other words, it really makes no difference what a person does with Jesus Christ here on earth. He/she can thumb their nose at God/Jesus their whole lives but will end up in heaven anyway?
Hell is a remedial fire, Aionion Kolasin, the age-enduring chastisement, or the "chastisement lasting chastisement" as I can literally and linguistically state it; is no mere slap on the wrist. We are held accountable for our sins, and our transgressions if we will not let go of them. God will have his creation, his children made right, do right, and be right as He is right; be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. He is like a refiner's fire who will burn away the dross from the silver, an all consuming fire who will burn the adultery out of the adulterer, the idolatry out of the idolator, the wickedness out of the wicked, the lies out of the liar, the cowardice out of the coward, the sin out of the sinner, the death out of the dead - even in the Lake of Fire if need be. He sanctifies the saved, he will sanctify all he has died to save, and he died to save the world.
One does not sin their way to Heaven, but neither does a sinner confess his way to Heaven either. God must draw him, the Spirit must draw him, Grace must save him. "You can do nothing apart from me" this includes confession, baptism, being saved, being born again, even sinning. We all live, breathe, and have our being in God.
One should not follow Christ merely to get to Heaven, one should follow Christ to be Christ-like, blessed to be a blessing. Getting to Heaven is not the goal of a Christian, it is being with God where ever he may be, whether in a holocaust gas-chamber, or in the very heart of Heaven itself. Heaven is a blessing that follows one who seeks after Righteousness. It is seeking after Righteousness that is the goal. If a Christian is only seeking Bliss, but not Righteousness - then he is not properly focused on the Truth, the Life, the Way; because He is the Life and the Resurrection, but especially He is the Righteousness we are to follow.
You may ask; "what does it matter what they if they'll get to Heaven anyway?" I could ask the same; What does it matter what you do if you are saved anyway? Is Heaven your only goal? Or is it Righteousness? If it is Righteousness then it matters a great deal, for everyone not just the Christian. If it is just getting into Heaven "anyway", then what does it matter what you do if you are saved anyway?
Love thy God with all thy heart. This commandment is for all.
QuoteHow could a good God in your words, destroy the whole earth at the flood and
why would he do that?
By expressing his Justice, Mercy, Love, and Grace to the sinner's destroyed. God destroyed those whose sin abounded to vicious heights, so much so that God himself felt regret for having made them. Sin is self-damaging, and damaging to those around. Sin kills, sin rots, and sin corrupts. It destroys God's beloved creations. Their sin had abounded so high that if it were to go any further it is hard telling what horror might have been produced. God out of his mercy, grace, love, and justice broke their inevitable progression in their inexpressibly terrible sin, so they would not sin further and experience more agony in what would surely be a long road to recovery in God's consuming fire than they could bear.
God will not put anything on anyone that they cannot bear, even the sinner.
God in destroying the corruption, made way for the Earth to recover and replenish itself with Noah's descendents, and the animals he rescued.
QuoteI frankly think that the universalist thinking is very dangerous for
humanity and certainly for the cause
of Jesus Christ, who came to seek and to save those that were lost.
ESV:
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
[For the Son of Man came to save the lost.] What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
Matthew 18:11-14
I certainly agree that the universalist argument does not "discount much of scripture." I've read more in-depth Bible examination here in the past few months than I'd come across in the previous ten years. :laughing7:
Lefein, I agree with your 5 points but the "refutal" of all 5 points is easy and the same.
God truely has the power and the wisdom to carry out His will to most tiny detail.
In His wisdom He decided what ETs teach.
Your summary is good and useless at the same time. I'm not saying that with disrespect. It's what I learned while being on this forum.
Every Christian will agree with your points. God is powerful, smart, etc, etc.
ETs and URs simply disagree how God uses those powers.
1. Jesus accomplised His task. He saved the elect (Calvinism) or He gave the chance to all. (Armianism)
2. God is very much in charge but He repects our free will.
3. Hell glorifies those in heaven. People in heaven and hell both have chosen their destiny; so there is no division because everyone is where they want to be.
4. See point 1
5. God is victorious. He has his people in heaven and permanently restrained evil and death by locking it up in hell.
Not so smart wings...
2. If Jesus respects our free will then, he will respect the fact that we made a wrong choice in going to hell, so he in our respect for us, will let us into heaven. If he does not let the Hell campers in to heaven then he does not respect our free will.
3. See point 1, you made about giving chance to all.
Hi Tanks....
2. Sure it's nonsense. I'm not promoting the idea. (I think you know me that well by now) It's rediculous to even consider people prefer endless torture of the most extreme kind over heaven. But the story goes, our free will ends at death.
I'm not defending the points as my own. I'm just saying that many seem to see it that way.
(added point 5)
I think the word "universalism" is like everything else religious people have manufactured. It's always based on the individual's perception of what universalism is. If I'm not mistaken, isn't the word "Catholic" actually the same thing? Doesn't it actually mean "universal"? But yet universal"ism" is a far cry from Catholicism. The original poster here appears to already have a twisted point of view as to what a universalist is all about. For me, the purpose of becoming one isn't emphasizing the human's personal interests, but instead, it's identifying and acknowledging the gloriously powerful love of God toward men.
Why are they so quick to ridicule and condemn brothers and sisters for something they really don't have an accurate concept themselves as to what true freedom really is? It's not about being free to do whatever I want now with no consequences. It's about being free from the power of want within me so that I can now fulfill his desire by doing his will that he's established in me.
I "want" his freedom in me. Religion seems to inflate the failures. Truth merely overshadows the argument all together. I keep thinking about Lot . . . in spite of his lusts and desires . . .God STILL calls him righteous, not because of his life choices, but because of God's covenant with himself through the seed "in" Abraham who then is related to Lot . . .which the covenant is extended "to" Lot. And then it gets even more powerful when you realize that Lot's daughters willingly put their father in a drunken stuper so they could become inpregnated by him . . .you should read that if you haven't recently . . . their reasoning for doing this act is nonsensical. But there's one thing that was being repeated . . .the reason why they slept with their Father was to PRESERVE THE LINEAGE OF THEIR FATHERS . . .
Ask yourself this question . . .what is the purpose for any given denomination?
But . . say those that are Foursquare (enter denomination of choice here). . .are they then ones that are called out from the called out ones???
For the 5 points I presented, they are not meant to convince. They are meant to present what I now believe/do not believe. No disrespect taken, only that they are not mean to do the things you thought they should do, in that they are not meant to be put up for refutation, only presentation.
I would build a stronger case if I wanted to convince anyone of anything.
Which kinda brings it back again to why does a denomination become a denomination?
For me, the ones I've been affiliated with were birthed from either revivals (Azusa street) or an individual who'd been endowed with a great anointing on their lives and their beliefs became the structure of a movement . . .with the purpose to preserve the anointing the individual or movement had in it's momentum in the day that it existed. So when I came across this passage about how these two (unnamed) daughters took it upon themselves to pervert the purpose of reproduction so they could "preserve the lineage of their fathers" . . .that really struck a chord with me in how denominations fit that exact same bill.
Men who have taken matters into their own hands, use mind controling elements (drunkeness) of their Father's to pursue personal gratifications produced Moabites and Ammonites . . .both of which later were enemies of the Jews through out their existence. The bottom line . . .how many churches out there were birthed from spiritual incest?