Has anybody considered...
The reason the doctrine of universal salvation is such a dispute between men is simply a failure to recognize the terms of contract.
I hired a man to replace all the screws in my thirty year old mobile home, and paint it when he finished with replacing the screws. He did a fine job. I was happy with his work ethic. Then I noticed I had a tree in the back yard that needed to go.
Would it be proper for me to expect him to dispose of that tree under the original terms of our contractual understanding?
Remember, screws and paint, but no tree. It would require a new contract of understanding, OR a new understanding of contract between us for it to become an obligation between us, him to do the work, me to pay him for the job.
If you will look at the terms of understanding between God and the various men under various contracts (read "covenants") you will cease to ask "why doesn't the old covenant (testament) warn the men about eternal torment?"
Simple. It wasn't part of the contract (covenant).
God made one universal contract between himself and all men.
INSTRUCTION:
"Don't eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
CONSEQUENCE FOR DISOBEDIENCE:
DEATH.
RESULT:
ALL MEN ATE OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.
There was at that time, ONLY Adam and eve.
They died.
END OF CONTRACT.
When God removed Adam and Eve from the garden, he removed "ALL MEN" from access to the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thus removed the "contract" and all of its terms. Men no longer had that contract with God and God never punished another man for THAT act of disobecience.
We have no information as to any contractual (Covenantal) understanding between God and all men again, until after the flood. It was a promise to never again flood the whole earth, and was sealed with a sign all men could see, a rainbow in the sky between God and men.
Again, God entered into a contractual understanding with one family of men, Abraham and his seed, through Isaac in promise. There were promises of blessings and cursings which were consequential to the keeping or breaking of the covenantal understanding bound between them, God and Chosen Men from among men. It only affected one family of all the families of the earth. When Israel broke covenant with God, God did not flood the earth, nor did he destroy Greece, or Egypt, he punished Israel according to the terms of contract, entered into by the family progenitors, who had entered into covenant/contract with God FOR their offspring.
God promised Israel a new contract (read "new Covenant") and when the old contract ran out because of the Israelites failure to keep the terms, God punished them according to the terms of the old contract, while he was developing the circumstances necessary for the new covenant between him and all men.
It is a term of the new covenant that all men come to a knowledge of God and his son Jesus Christ. Terms of the contract include considerations for both temporal and eternal consequences. Men are supposed to be adults in this contract, and not children. Fathers cannot enter covenant with God FOR their children. Once they comprehend what it is they are to comprehend, they begin a life of service under the terms of a new contract, having new blessings, and new consequences.
The problem comes when some men look at prior contracts and somehow think it is unfair for God to change the terms, while it is actually the contract that was changed. So men today continually try to force the terms of one contract on the citizens of another contract.
The difference between the old and new contracts (Covenants) is the importance of the sacrifice that provided the "blood of the covenant."
Remember, God was the king of Israel, in the beginning of their contract. They had blessings beyond those of common men. Even when men begged to change the contract, God allowed them to have their way, but ONLY under contract with changed terms. He gave them a king from among their own number. BUT they continued to be under a contract (covenant) arrangement.
The blood of bulls and goats was the "blood of the covenant" because all flesh belonged to God, therefore it was his own blood by right of ownership. The blood of Jesus was the blood of the "New Covenant" - still God's own blood" because all the first-born sons of Israel belonged to God because of the covenant agreement; therefore a much more serious consideration, having much greater consequences, and both blessings and cursings way beyond what was previously understood by men. They now entered into an eternal contract having eternal consequences.
If you go back and look at the terms of contract (Covenant) between God and the men you list as "not threatened with eternal damnation" you will see that this is the true application of Covenant with God. He never punished one group of men by the terms of covenant with a different group of men.
We are under a new covenant, sealed by the blood of Jesus, and given eternal promises. It is a different covenant having eternal blessings and eternal consequences.
As for what God is going to do with all those men under prior covenants in eternity, I think THAT belongs to God and judgment. It is not within our purvue to speculate, ponder, and make eternal decisions.
I do think I would stop telling men there are no eternal consequences for disobedience, until I examined this understanding thoroughly.
What say ye all?
God wants all to be saved. Who's going to stop Him? :dontknow: It's good news! :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 02:47:45 AM
God wants all to be saved. Who's going to stop Him? :dontknow: It's good news! :Sparkletooth:
Anybody that hates God.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:50:42 AM
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 02:47:45 AM
God wants all to be saved. Who's going to stop Him? :dontknow: It's good news! :Sparkletooth:
Anybody that hates God.
Then I guess you and I have a radically different idea of what God is...
I believe God is powerful enough to achieve what He wants, and no one will stop Him, especially not someone who hates.
Does love overcome hate, or not?
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 02:54:53 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 02:50:42 AM
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 02:47:45 AM
God wants all to be saved. Who's going to stop Him? :dontknow: It's good news! :Sparkletooth:
Anybody that hates God.
Then I guess you and I have a radically different idea of what God is...
I believe God is powerful enough to achieve what He wants, and no one will stop Him, especially not someone who hates.
Does love overcome hate, or not?
It has nothing to do with love and hate, it has to do with obedience and disobedience. It has to do with which covenant you belong to. Why should people end up in hell just because you guys don't believe in it and do not think it through, and are telling them there is no hell? Read the covenant articles and tell me where my OP is wrong.
With all due respect, your OP overly complicates the matter. Look at the 50000 foot view.
God wants all to be saved, and He is going to do it. No one can stop him.
If you believe people suffer forever because God allows or purposes it, then you must believe one of the following:
1. Either God wants to save all but can't, thus He is frustrated forever
OR
2. God doesn't want to save all men, and actually wants men to suffer forever
Which do you believe?
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 03:03:16 AM
With all due respect, your OP overly complicates the matter. Look at the 50000 foot view.
God wants all to be saved, and He is going to do it. No one can stop him.
If you believe people suffer forever because God allows or purposes it, then you must believe one of the following:
1. Either God wants to save all but can't, thus He is frustrated forever
OR
2. God doesn't want to save all men, and actually wants men to suffer forever
Which do you believe?
[Mod Edit] . God gave man free will, and he will NOT over ride that gift. He wants all men to be saved, but he leaves it to all men to choose.
God's will is frustrated all the time, and he even changes his will, so which will are you talking about, his first one or after he repented?
It was God's will that men behave a certain way, and when they refused he "repented" that he had made men and placed them on the earth.
Genesis 6:7 "And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."
It was his will that Israel behave a certain way. Israel rebelled. God determined to punish them. They repented. He repented of the evil he was going to do to them.
Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Which will of God are you referencing?
The one he first expressed, or the one where he changed his mind?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 03:12:43 AM
Quote from: legoman on March 15, 2010, 03:03:16 AM
With all due respect, your OP overly complicates the matter. Look at the 50000 foot view.
God wants all to be saved, and He is going to do it. No one can stop him.
If you believe people suffer forever because God allows or purposes it, then you must believe one of the following:
1. Either God wants to save all but can't, thus He is frustrated forever
OR
2. God doesn't want to save all men, and actually wants men to suffer forever
Which do you believe?
What is there about "free will" that you don't understand. God gave man free will, and he will NOT over ride that gift. He wants all men to be saved, but he leaves it to all men to choose.
God's will is frustrated all the time, and he even changes his will, so which will are you talking about, his first one or after he repented?
It was God's will that men behave a certain way, and when they refused he "repented" that he had made men and placed them on the earth.
Genesis 6:7 "And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."
It was his will that Israel behave a certain way. Israel rebelled. God determined to punish them. They repented. He repented of the evil he was going to do to them.
Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Which will of God are you referencing?
The one he first expressed, or the one where he changed his mind?
Oh boy here we go... :winkgrin:
BTW I never said hi Theo. Welcome to the forums! The topic of 'free will' is taboo around here, so I'll leave it to the discretion of the mods.
No one can frustrate God's will forever (or even at all). But essentially that is what you are saying I guess. God will be frustrated forever, not achieving His desire to save all man. So sad for God, according to your view.
Indeed, scripture does give many examples where people are disobedient to God. But you are forgetting who is in control:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Now you say God will never "override" our free will. Hmmm :dontknow:
What about Saul/Paul? Saul was on his way to damascus to persecute and kill Christians. That was Saul's will. But God sure changed that quick with a flash of light and a booming voice...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 12:58:04 AM
Has anybody considered...
Multiple Timeshare Contracts?
Nowhere is it Written in Scripture that a sanction of "The New Covenant" is ceaseless torture for ever.
If there remains a realm where there is ceaseless torture for ever, then God never forgives and He is never satisfied. Since He becomes "the all in all," (1 Co 15) God will always be sick and suffering pain if eternal torture was true. That this is not so is seen from the fact He effectually proclaims, "Neither shall there be any more pain...it has been done." (Rv 21:4,6)
That the last enemy death will be abolished is also clearly stated in Scripture. (cp., 1 Co 15:26) There are at least 5 kinds of death mentioned in the N.T. and however many there are, why would God predict Himself eliminating death and out of the other side of His mouth maintain it for ever? The answer is simple. He never said there is a never-ending death. The first death cannot be the last enemy as long as there are deaths subsequent to it that remain to be destroyed. God will not maintain the worst form of death we are aware of, the second death. He will not make Himself a liar.
Yes, direct discussions of what some refer to as "freewill" vs. "total sovereignty" are not allowed on the boards. Theo, please direct the discussion elsewhere/in different terms than "freewill", "no freewill", "freewill", "no freewill"....
Also, please stick to the scriptures - translated as accurately to the original languages as much as possible - in the discussions. [For instance, and one of many - regarding the Hebrews 34:12 passage, please take an honest look at the Hebrew word 'nacham', usually (but correctly?) translated as "repented".
Anyway, a truly open, seeking heart and mind is helpful to see God's Plan - but sometimes, He just takes us unawares and brings us to a place where we can finally see. :bigGrin: It was during one of the most painful periods of my life that He allowed me to see His glorious plan to redeem His whole creation through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus. Yesu. Master, savior of the world. (John 4:42, I Tim. 4:10)
He will reveal to each of us as suits His plan.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 12:58:04 AM
I do think I would stop telling men there are no eternal consequences for disobedience, until I examined this understanding thoroughly.
Ephesians 1:10 "in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him"
I do think I would stop telling men they would be tortured eternally in a mistranslated place called "hell", until I examined this understanding thoroughly.
Quote from: reFORMer on March 15, 2010, 04:15:08 AM
Nowhere is it Written in Scripture that a sanction of "The New Covenant" is ceaseless torture for ever.
If there remains a realm where there is ceaseless torture for ever, then God never forgives and He is never satisfied.
So if you have two sons, one who is obedient and cares for your rules, helps you out in every endeavor, and supports your every effort, and the other never obeys a rule, thwarts your every effort, hates you and avoids all contact, you treat them alike?
Where do you think the term "disinherit" comes from? It is a "last resort" tool some parents use as a threat to bring a recalcitrant child back into line. It represents a parents unequal efforts in raising children who react differently to authority. "Inheritance" is one of the main themes of covenant relationship with God. Men will either strive to inherit good, or will succumb to losses unrecoverable. Even Nature demonstrates that to be the case. God always stands ready to forgive the repentant. He takes no pleasure in the death of the sinner.
Quote
Since He becomes "the all in all," (1 Co 15) God will always be sick and suffering pain if eternal torture was true. That this is not so is seen from the fact He effectually proclaims, "Neither shall there be any more pain...it has been done." (Rv 21:4,6)
That this IS so is seen by the vact that he effectually proclaims - Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
GROUP ONE:
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
GROUP TWO:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
You are taking two verses from the middle of a warning and applying the promises to two groups as though they are one group.
Quote
That the last enemy death will be abolished is also clearly stated in Scripture. (cp., 1 Co 15:26) There are at least 5 kinds of death mentioned in the N.T. and however many there are, why would God predict Himself eliminating death and out of the other side of His mouth maintain it for ever? The answer is simple. He never said there is a never-ending death. The first death cannot be the last enemy as long as there are deaths subsequent to it that remain to be destroyed. God will not maintain the worst form of death we are aware of, the second death. He will not make Himself a liar.
I think possibly some of the disagreement comes from the fact "death" is a noun and
"dying" is a verb. "Death" is not what people do. Death is a servant of God who takes people when they die. He will be destroyed at some point because there will be no more people who are subject to death. All will be immortal at some point. But being immortal does not mean saved. it means you can no longer die. Being no longer able to die is not the same as being raised from the dead. "The dead" is another noun indicating those who have passed from mortal to immortal.
As for God not saying anything about a never-ending death, neither did I. I spoke of the same everlasting punishment God speaks of in the context of which you were so selective a few moments ago. "He that overcometh" will be God's son, not every man who ever lived. see verses 7 and 8 of Rev 21 above.
Every verse Used by Universal Salvationists to prove their doctrine is selectively applied by taking them our of context in which is found the rest of the story. Look it up.
The doctrine began with the argument that God never warned the old testament people, so it shouldn't apply to us. THAT argument was developed a looong time ago. No one has ever pointed out the simple fact, of the different applications of covenant. THAT can be looked up also.
God has always stood by his covenants with men, and has always devised different approaches to different civilizations, societies, generations, families, call it what you will of man. Adam and Eve; Abraham; Abraham's first seed through Isaac; Abraham's second seed through Christ. The old testament and the new testament are both about covenants between God and Abraham; with the exceptions of the other covenants recorded in the old testament.
God's covenants with men have always had consequences, either rewards or punishments depending upon obedience and disobedience, except for God's covenant about the rainbow. His covenant in the garden was first, his covenants with Abraham were second and third. His laws and regulations through Moses were given to Abraham's seed under the second covenant, but not under the third. and were not part of the covenant with Abraham. It was limited to the children of Israel coming out of Egypt, and their children.
Deu 5:3 "The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day."
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Under the covenant with the children of Israel under Moses, every man was to teach his children and his neighbor through the wearing of phylacteries, as well as proclamation. Under the new covenant with Abraham's seed, this was changed so that only those able to make decisions for themselves were tied to the covenant.
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Each covenant was a whole new economy as far as relationship between God and man was concerned. Promises, rewards, punishments, terms and terminology.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 11:50:58 AMSo if you have two sons, one who is obedient and cares for your rules, helps you out in every endeavor, and supports your every effort, and the other never obeys a rule, thwarts your every effort, hates you and avoids all contact, you treat them alike?
What if for whatever reason the disobeying son sees he was wrong and changes behavior? (Just de prodical son returning home after he learned his ways were not so good afterall) Would that father stop the punishment?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 15, 2010, 12:04:26 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 11:50:58 AMSo if you have two sons, one who is obedient and cares for your rules, helps you out in every endeavor, and supports your every effort, and the other never obeys a rule, thwarts your every effort, hates you and avoids all contact, you treat them alike?
What if for whatever reason the disobeying son sees he was wrong and changes behavior? (Just de prodical son returning home after he learned his ways were not so good afterall) Would that father stop the punishment?
That was already covered in my remarks on repentance.
So if all turn to God and repent, all would be saved, right? Repentance is simply a change of heart. A change of heart to follow Christ instead of the flesh (sin).
The truth given in scripture is that all will (future tense) turn to God, bow, confess Him as Lord, and swear allegiance to Him, thus all will be saved from sin and death. That is the good news.
QuoteIt was God's will that men behave a certain way
One of the things concerning rightly dividing the word is to distinguish what God will do as opposed to what he would prefer that we do.
God has prepared the way for all our routes which is what God does. Proverbs 5:21
Man cannot ultimatly save himself no matter what choice he makes because salvation is what God does.
What God desires to do will be done. Isaiah 46:10 God can't desire to do what we do, so our routes have been prepared for. That preparation is why ALL are Saved through Jesus Christ.
The bottom line is that anyone trying to teach a doctrine that is in any way exclusionary in the respect that there is a possibility that even one will be separated from God endlessly, refuses to believe that the one teaching it could be the one that gets the axe. You will not be able to prove otherwise except through empty claims. If you're willing to understand that it may be you that God chooses to cut off, changes his mind about and damns you or shows you you just couldn't cut it after all so too bad for you, then fine. But as long as you teach this and refuse to believe it could be you, then your doctrine is just more empty dogma that no one has to take seriously.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 15, 2010, 02:54:58 PM
QuoteIt was God's will that men behave a certain way
One of the things concerning rightly dividing the word is to distinguish what God will do as opposed to what he would prefer that we do.
God has prepared the way for all our routes which is what God does. Proverbs 5:21
Man cannot ultimatly save himself no matter what choice he makes because salvation is what God does.
Maybe you don't know scripture as well as you think you do.
Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
Quote
What God desires to do will be done. Isaiah 46:10
God expresseshis will in his logos; Even the logos of God can be corrupted.
2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the logos [word] of God:
QuoteGod can't desire to do what we do,
I don't even know what that means.
Quote
The bottom line is that anyone trying to teach a doctrine that is in any way exclusionary in the respect that there is a possibility that even one will be separated from God endlessly, refuses to believe that the one teaching it could be the one that gets the axe.
I don't know anyone like that. I do not make that claim. do you?
Quote
You will not be able to prove otherwise except through empty claims. If you're willing to understand that it may be you that God chooses to cut off, changes his mind about and damns you or shows you you just couldn't cut it after all so too bad for you, then fine.
W
hat difference would that make if we are all saved anyway? And what "empty claims" Show me which of my statements you consider an empty claim.
QuoteBut as long as you teach this and refuse to believe it could be you, then your doctrine is just more empty dogma that no one has to take seriously.
Then I don't have to worry do I? For I have taught no such thing.
[/quote]
where is the argument? - you have adressed little scripture
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 06:28:35 PM
Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
Your righteousness is yours, not mine or anyone elses. But God being the power behind that righteousness is seen through many other scriptures.
Quote
God expresseshis will in his logos; Even the logos of God can be corrupted.
2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the logos [word] of God:
What is Gods responsibility to do cannot be corrupted, and Gods desire that we do not do certain things of our own will has nothing to with the corruption of that desire. It is a desire that is expressed in the light of what we devise in our heart.
QuoteGod can't desire to do what we do,
QuoteI don't even know what that means.
God's desire for us to not do wrong does not inherantly keep us from doing wrong, however, it is that desire that put in place the directing of our feet despite what we do. Sometimes that direction involves suffering the consequenses of what we do so that his desire to save all mankind comes about in due time. This is where most people get lost because they have not yet come to the understanding of the relationship between our will and Gods.
Quote
The bottom line is that anyone trying to teach a doctrine that is in any way exclusionary in the respect that there is a possibility that even one will be separated from God endlessly, refuses to believe that the one teaching it could be the one that gets the axe.
If you do not believe that there is one human who will be separated from God, then it does not apply to you, no.
Quote
What difference would that make if we are all saved anyway?
I am not sure, I do not teach all are saved "anyway".
Quote
And what "empty claims" Show me which of my statements you consider an empty claim.
Obviously you are not making the empty claim I speak of since you do not believe anyone can be separated from God endlessly.
Apologies for misunderstanding you.
(Theo)
Quote
And what "empty claims" Show me which of my statements you consider an empty claim.
(Paul) Obviously you are not making the empty claim I speak of since you do not believe anyone can be separated from God endlessly.
Apologies for misunderstanding you.
Paul, I do not want to fly under false colors. I am not sure you misunderstand me. Let me rephrase and see what you think.
(Theo)
Quote
Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
(Paul)
Your righteousness is yours, not mine or anyone elses. But God being the power behind that righteousness is seen through many other scriptures.
I think all righteousness is of God, not man. For me, if I give my body to be burned for my fellow man's good, but do not know God, I cannot be counted righteous. I can only be counted "concerned" for others. I think the point of the verses quoted is, even by exercising that righteousness that comes from God one only can be involved in one's own salvation.
(Paul)
QuoteGod can't desire to do what we do,
(Theo) I don't even know what that means.
(Paul)
God's desire for us to not do wrong does not inherantly keep us from doing wrong, however, it is that desire that put in place the directing of our feet despite what we do. Sometimes that direction involves suffering the consequenses of what we do so that his desire to save all mankind comes about in due time. This is where most people get lost because they have not yet come to the understanding of the relationship between our will and Gods.
O.K. THAT puts a different perspective on the issue of USALV for me. I think I begin to see an argument that there may well be punishment after death, but it is not everlastiong, because after the cleansing fires, all will ultimately be brought to God. Does that sound anything like close?
(Paul)
Quote
The bottom line is that anyone trying to teach a doctrine that is in any way exclusionary in the respect that there is a possibility that even one will be separated from God endlessly, refuses to believe that the one teaching it could be the one that gets the axe.
If you do not believe that there is one human who will be separated from God, then it does not apply to you, no.
THAT is why I said I don't want to fly under false colors. I do not know either way. I do not know that some will be eternally lost in a lake of fire, nor do I know they will NOT.
THAT is why I am concerned. Until I can KNOW, I cannot tell others there is no eternal punishment. And I do not believe God would keep such a thing secret.
When I read the articles published by Gary on the site, and from debating him ten years ago, I understood him to believe the fact God did not warn the peoples of other covenants of the terms of the present covenant, that somehow made him to be be a terrible God. I do not believe that. I believe the people of each covenant will be judged by the terms of the covenant under which they lived. As Paul stated, "if you are responsible to part of the law, you are responsible to the whole law." THAT was discussing the scope of man's responsibility to a particular covenant.
(Theo)
Quote
What difference would that make if we are all saved anyway?
(Paul) I am not sure, I do not teach all are saved "anyway".
O.K. In that case I have completely missed the point of Universal Salvation. Does it not teach that all mankind will ultimately be saved? If yes, why does it matter what we do in this life, we will be saved anyway. If not, why teach such a doctrine?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 12:37:25 AM
I think all righteousness is of God, not man. For me, if I give my body to be burned for my fellow man's good, but do not know God, I cannot be counted righteous. I can only be counted "concerned" for others. I think the point of the verses quoted is, even by exercising that righteousness that comes from God one only can be involved in one's own salvation.
Perhaps we agree here in concept. Even the verse that says (paraphrasing) "work out your own salvation" is not a statement saying we have the power of ourselves, it is a statement of the individual nature of God working in us. What "I" do will not work out "your" salvation.
Quote
O.K. THAT puts a different perspective on the issue of USALV for me. I think I begin to see an argument that there may well be punishment after death, but it is not everlastiong, because after the cleansing fires, all will ultimately be brought to God. Does that sound anything like close?
Generally speaking there is disagreement among Christian Universalists on the nature of Gods Judgment and when it occurs whether in this life or the next. In my point to you I would say conceptually speaking CU's will agree with you in the respect that everyone is judged by God and no one escapes that judgment.
QuoteTHAT is why I said I don't want to fly under false colors. I do not know either way. I do not know that some will be eternally lost in a lake of fire, nor do I know they will NOT.
THAT is why I am concerned. Until I can KNOW, I cannot tell others there is no eternal punishment. And I do not believe God would keep such a thing secret.
And like I said, I did misunderstand you in that respect, I took your comments in a more direct way. I appreciate that you say the above and absolutely agree that you should not tell others anything other than what you are convicted to say.
Quote
When I read the articles published by Gary on the site, and from debating him ten years ago, I understood him to believe the fact God did not warn the peoples of other covenants of the terms of the present covenant, that somehow made him to be be a terrible God. I do not believe that. I believe the people of each covenant will be judged by the terms of the covenant under which they lived. As Paul stated, "if you are responsible to part of the law, you are responsible to the whole law." THAT was discussing the scope of man's responsibility to a particular covenant.
To be honest I have not read all of Gary's articles because I do not follow Gary and many here do not either. I come here for the very fact that I can post my thoughts and ideas and concerns and even what I believe to be true without having to conform to one mans teachings. I will agree with you that man has a certain responsibility but it is never apart from Gods influence. I also believe that each person bears an individual responsibility that is ultimatly between the person and God. I for instance may have ideas concerning behaviour on this earth and accept and agree with many laws of the land that we have. None of that however gives me the right to determine specifically who has what standing with God.
(Theo)
Quote
What difference would that make if we are all saved anyway?
(Paul) I am not sure, I do not teach all are saved "anyway".
Quote
O.K. In that case I have completely missed the point of Universal Salvation. Does it not teach that all mankind will ultimately be saved? If yes, why does it matter what we do in this life, we will be saved anyway. If not, why teach such a doctrine?
Christian Universalism teaches the basic idea that ALL are saved through Jesus Christ. That Gods influence is what will direct everyones feet to accepting Jesus.
So when I hear someone say "all are saved anyway" to me that is saying that you think that what we believe here has to do with the ability to be saved without Jesus.
There might be a person that occasionally comes here trying to minimize the idea of Jesus Christ being necessary for salvation, but Christian Universalism in general does not teach that.
Now that being said, I think the "religious" influence of "accepting" christ is something I personally may have a differing out look on, but for the sake of our discussion on this specific point. Jesus is the only way.
"Jesus is the Only Way"
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSIs1MHdFQY
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 12:58:04 AM
Has anybody considered...
The reason the doctrine of universal salvation is such a dispute between men is simply a failure to recognize the terms of the contract.
I hired a man to replace all the screws in my thirty year old mobile home, and paint it when he finished with replacing the screws. He did a fine job. I was happy with his work ethic. END OF CONTRACT.
Then I noticed I had a tree in the back yard that needed to go ...
A New contract replaces that of an Old contract.
However, if (
a condition or supposition) the originator (
owner) of the contract had amended the original, making an atonement (
reparation) for the wrongs committed (
missing a spot of paint, or leaving out a few screws, etc.) by the other party in past deeds, any liability within the Old contract would no longer be valid.
It's called Reconciliation within the Book.
peacemaker
You lost me right at the very beginning of your thesis, namely:
"INSTRUCTION:
"Don't eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
CONSEQUENCE FOR DISOBEDIENCE:
DEATH.
RESULT:
ALL MEN ATE OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.
There was at that time, ONLY Adam and eve.
They died.
END OF CONTRACT."
By scanning the rest of your posts I see you believe in scripture so I can't imagine how you can say this. The foundational premise of your argument is faulty.
In my opinion there is no possible way to reconcile Romans 5:12 ff with your premise! I don't even know how to explain it any more clearly than Paul did. The original "contract", if you are going to call it that, is still fully in effect and will be until sin and death are destroyed once and for all. Sin entered (and thereby death) through Adam and came thus to the whole race of men (through that one man).
This contract or covenant or call it what you will is never called a covenant or contract in the Bible as far as a I know so I don't know how appropriate it is to call it such and compare it to something like the Noahic or Abrahamic Covenant. Even the New Covenant Jesus proclaimed was in juxtaposition to the Old Covenant, which was not anything to do with Adam (ala Rom 5) but was the Abrahamic Covenant (see 2 Cor 3).
I don't know where that leaves the rest of your argument but I can't get past an initial premise that on the surface at least seems so out of whack.
SteveW
Quote from: SteveW on March 16, 2010, 07:21:06 AM
You lost me right at the very beginning of your thesis, namely:
(Theo)Quote
"INSTRUCTION:
"Don't eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
CONSEQUENCE FOR DISOBEDIENCE:
DEATH.
RESULT:
ALL MEN ATE OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.
There was at that time, ONLY Adam and eve.
They died.
END OF CONTRACT."
By scanning the rest of your posts I see you believe in scripture so I can't imagine how you can say this. The foundational premise of your argument is faulty.
In my opinion there is no possible way to reconcile Romans 5:12 ff with your premise!
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 5:12-13 is not part of the original contract of understanding, it is an explanation from the new, of the first. Sin was not imputed until the law or contract which laid out the explanation or parameters of what sin is.
I was going by the menaing of the Greek word "diatheekee" which is translated
"covenant" in Gen 9:9 and many other places, and has the meaning of 1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will 2) a compact, a covenant, a testament 2a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.
This meaning is found throughout scripture and applies to many things not part of an officially stated "covenant," i.e., there are many "arrangements," or agreements made between God and men, and between men and men. "Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto." [Gal 3:15] It does not have to be designated "covenant" in a translation to be a covenant in reality. "Testament" is translated from the same word diatheekee.
Look again at Paul's understanding - "Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar." [Gal 4:24] - We would never consider Sarai and Hagar to be two covenants unless Paul brought it to our attention.
What God had with Adam fits into this understanding. It was an understanding of instruction, blessings, punishment, all the accouterment of "covenant" plus brevity.
Of course, I do not make this understanding a test of fellowship. But it helps me in my understanding of the progresws of covenants and their import.
(Steve)QuoteI don't even know how to explain it any more clearly than Paul did. The original "contract", if you are going to call it that, is still fully in effect and will be until sin and death are destroyed once and for all. Sin entered (and thereby death) through Adam and came thus to the whole race of men (through that one man).
This contract or covenant or call it what you will is never called a covenant or contract in the Bible as far as a I know so I don't know how appropriate it is to call it such and compare it to something like the Noahic or Abrahamic Covenant. Even the New Covenant Jesus proclaimed was in juxtaposition to the Old Covenant, which was not anything to do with Adam (ala Rom 5) but was the Abrahamic Covenant (see 2 Cor 3).
I don't know where that leaves the rest of your argument but I can't get past an initial premise that on the surface at least seems so out of whack. SteveW
ANY arrangement, contract, agreement, etc. between two qualifies as a diatheekee. The arrangement between God and Adam was in the form of instruction, but I do not see where Adam either comprehended or agreed, and I do not see where Eve even heard the terms. I know she DID because she was able to quote the instructions God gave Adam, to Satan. And I also strongly believe Adam understood and agreed, because of the character of God and the fact Adam never plead ignorance. He only explained his guilt.
To me, the difference between arrangements is best described by the Hebrew letter;
"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises." [Heb 8:6]
ALL of the covenants between God and men are brought together in Christ - "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." [Heb 9:15]
The only difference I can see between agreements and covenants and testaments, is the death requirement, of the testator; but since Adam died, and in Adam, all men, I do not see a problem with the application. We just do not know enough about what was understood between God and Adam.
Anyway, enough rambling for now. What say ye?
I wish I had more time to give a thoughtful reply before work this morning, but alas, perhaps a simple reply is better than none at all.
I still can't make heads or tails of your argument because it still seems based upon a faulty premise. To state it succinctly I can't get around you saying that God's covenant (I used the word because you want to use it, not because it is Biblically described that way) with Adam was fulfilled and completed with Adam. Yet Romans 5 makes it clear that because of Adam death and sin reign over the human race - apart from Christ that is. And we know that death and sin won't finally actually once and for all be destroyed until the end of the age.
How can you say that their contract (Adam and Eve's) wasn't a contract for the human race if the terms or consequences are for the whole human race? If what you are saying is true and the contract ended with them then their progeny would not have experienced sin or death.
Again, can't figure out why it is so important for you to characterize what happened with Adam the way you do and it certainly doesn't seem biblical to me.
Quote from: SteveW on March 16, 2010, 04:34:01 PM
I wish I had more time to give a thoughtful reply before work this morning, but alas, perhaps a simple reply is better than none at all.
I still can't make heads or tails of your argument because it still seems based upon a faulty premise. To state it succinctly I can't get around you saying that God's covenant (I used the word because you want to use it, not because it is Biblically described that way) with Adam was fulfilled and completed with Adam. Yet Romans 5 makes it clear that because of Adam death and sin reign over the human race - apart from Christ that is. And we know that death and sin won't finally actually once and for all be destroyed until the end of the age.
How can you say that their contract (Adam and Eve's) wasn't a contract for the human race if the terms or consequences are for the whole human race? If what you are saying is true and the contract ended with them then their progeny would not have experienced sin or death.
Again, can't figure out why it is so important for you to characterize what happened with Adam the way you do and it certainly doesn't seem biblical to me.
When Adam interacted with God, he lived in a perfect world. No sickness, no disease, no death. He had an understanding as to behaviour, with consequences and those consequences included both positive and negative possibilities. It is not elaborated upon by the scriptures but we know some things without being told. For example, Adam was told that if he ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he will die. THIS includes a certain understanding that if he does NOT so eat, he will live. THAT makes a situation plausible known as an agreement. Not a scriptural quote, but a scriptural teaching.
Adam ate, and died. Terms of agreement and understanding fulfilled. Adam sent out of the garden. Earth cursed. Ends Adam's part in the scheme of things. However, the "Consequences" of Adam's action are still with us today. But NOT in the same world as that of Adam. Remember, he began life in a perfect world.
God cursed the earth, so that by the time the next generation knew anything at all, it was from the standpoint of living in a sincursed world. There is no record of any transaction between them and God other than the requirements of sacrifrice pleasing to God. Cain and Able had to sort that out in their own way. Able's sacrifice pleased God, Cain's did not; from which we can draw a different set of conclusions. God had to have communicated to them what would please him as to the type of sacrifice, and the type of comodity they could use. One is from a flock of living animal, having blood coursing through its veins, wherein life flows. {Remember, "the life is in the blood."} Cain offered the fruit of his own labor, of vegetables having no life-carrying blood. His sacrifice was contrary to God's pleasure, and his obvious instruction. Again, consequences, and promises for certain kinds of behaviour as respects sacrifice and obedience.
And that was the only interaction we know of with only one exception, Enoch, who walked with God and was not for God took him, because he pleased God. There is no way Enoch could have pleased God without God's communication to men, and Enoch's pursuit of righteousness in line with that communication. Again, not a scripture quote, but a scriptural teaching.
Finally came a time in which God communicated again, his displeasure with the race of men, by flooding the earth with water. Once more, we can develope an understanding about what those men knew by what God did in reaction to their efforts. When God destroyed the earth because of man's behaviour, there was no innocent man walking the earth. ALL stood guilty before God. "Every thought of man's heart was only evil continually." THAT is quite an indictment. But it tells us they were not kept in ignorance of God's will, but rather chose to go their own way. Remember, Enoch lived up during some of that same time and pleased God, so it was a matter of choice; how Enoch reacted to God's communication compared with how all other men reacted to that same communication.
But remember also, it was not the same world as that of Adam. Nor was it the same set of instructions as that of Adam, nor even of Cain and Able.
Time, world situation, people involved, promises, consequences, blessings, curses, all different for each group of men the Bible presents to us for our learning. And remember also that the old testament was designed to lead the Jews to Christ. All of these stories are part of that old covenant with Abraham, and part of those lessons to lead them to Christ.
It constituted a build up of different requirements as to what pleased God, who accomplished that, and results of effort extended.
There are some results from those days that still effect us today without our being part of those agreements and understandings. Example - cursed earth; we live with it. Example -Rainbow symbol of covenant-promise; we live with it. Example - prophetic utteraqnces concerning Messiah and salvation; we live with it. Example - prophecies of wars, rumors of war, pestilence, etc,; we live with it.
All of the covenants with God had results that affected those within its purview, AND also had results that extended long after those men died. Romans 5 is proof of that. The tale of the flood is further proof. The tale of the allegory between Sarai and Hagar, "which are two covenants" tells us yet again of things that carry results way beyond the time of those involved.
I don't know if this clears it up or makes it worse. I do know that all the covenants are connected, and consequences of one are still effective in another. Patience.
Hi Theo
I thought of the transgression of Adam
it was hiding it in his bosom / Eve
she come out from Adam and declared what was in mans heart
he blamed God for the woman God gave him
thats what he did ... and the Lord made him see that , He was the head over the woman , not the woman over the head /man
the order that God has made was changed by Adams iniquity ...
1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
The stranger did not lodge in the street: [but] I opened my doors to the traveller.
Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:
Job 31:34 Did I fear a great multitude, or did the contempt of families terrify me, that I kept silence, [and] went not out of the door?
Job 31:35 Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire [is, that] the Almighty would answer me, and [that] mine adversary had written a book.
there is alot more to this , but will quiet for now
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 06:48:54 PMWhen Adam interacted with God, he lived in a perfect world. No sickness, no disease, no death.
Doesn't a perfect world also mean there are only perfect people? Adam and Eve were not perfect imo outwise they won't have sinned.
If Jesus would have been the first Adam then the serpent would simply out of luck.
QuoteCain and Able had to sort that out in their own way. Able's sacrifice pleased God, Cain's did not; from which we can draw a different set of conclusions. God had to have communicated to them what would please him as to the type of sacrifice, and the type of comodity they could use. One is from a flock of living animal, having blood coursing through its veins, wherein life flows. {Remember, "the life is in the blood."} Cain offered the fruit of his own labor, of vegetables having no life-carrying blood. His sacrifice was contrary to God's pleasure, and his obvious instruction.
Like always there are different understandings
KJVGen 4:3-4 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Why did did one offer please God and the other not? Because one was meat and the other was fruit?
Or could it be that the fruit was of bad quality?
The animal offering was "firstlings". Imo that's often seen as prime quality.
But for the fruits nothing is mentioned about quality. Like first fruits for example.
Just a thought.
QuoteThere are some results from those days that still effect us today without our being part of those agreements and understandings. Example - cursed earth; we live with it. Example -Rainbow symbol of covenant-promise; we live with it. Example - prophetic utteraqnces concerning Messiah and salvation; we live with it. Example - prophecies of wars, rumors of war, pestilence, etc,; we live with it.
So basicly you are saying all the (un)written convenants/instructions are still casting their shadow into our time?
To me it are very reasonble conclusions.
QuoteIf you will look at the terms of understanding between God and the various men under various contracts (read "covenants") you will cease to ask "why doesn't the old covenant (testament) warn the men about eternal torment?"
Simple. It wasn't part of the contract (covenant).
I came to the conclusion that I can turn your argument around and then it favors universalism, which is more rational then thinking that God would keep silence for millenia over such a terrible threat as eternal torment, we further challenge the claim that the New Testament teaches eternal torment.
I admit the Old Testament does say little about universalism or an afterlife at all, - it wasn't part of the contract maybe
In the Gospels itselfs there are only a few hints in favor for universalism, it was maybe still not part of the contract with the Jewish people; only after Christ's ressurection we find universalism clearly taught in the epistles of Paul, maybe it was kind of a new covenant or contract that benefits literally all men.
QuoteAs for what God is going to do with all those men under prior covenants in eternity, I think THAT belongs to God and judgment. It is not within our purvue to speculate, ponder, and make eternal decisions.
yet you say we have choice to decide over our own eternal destiny, wouldn't this be an eternal decision alike?
Sven,
I think each contract reveals a little more of the masterplan.
And I agree (to a certain extend) with Theo that the convenants don't just end.
We now live in the age of Grace. You could call it the contract of grace if you wish.
But does that mean all OT laws are abolished? So are. For example the animal sacrifices.
But, for example, the 10 Commandment still are in effect.
Otherwise it would indeed be what many acuse UR of. "Let's party. Let's sin. It doesn't matter the slightest bit."
Theo,
You wrote down some examples of old contracts that still are present. Like the rainbow and death.
You made you point very clear that the contracts extebd into the future.
But do you think the contracts also extend into the past?
For example does teh age of grace also benefits Adam?
Does the death and resurrection also benefit Jesus?
Or do you say "Adam had no everlasting life contract so he just stays dead forever."
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2010, 08:37:18 PM
Theo,
You wrote down some examples of old contracts that still are present. Like the rainbow and death.
You made you point very clear that the contracts extebd into the future.
But do you think the contracts also extend into the past?
Actually my point was NOT that the contracts extend into the future, but rather the CONSEQUENCES of some of the contracts are still effective.
As for extending into the past. No! If the age of grace extended backward, it would eliminate the meaning of "age of" in the expression, by changing it to "ages of."
Quote
For example does the age of grace also benefits Adam?
The age of grace is totally tied to the death and resurrection of Jesus, and it does not extend, it applies, to all ages. He died for all sins past. [Rom 3:25]
Quote
Does the death and resurrection also benefit Jesus?
Most assuredly. He was declared to be the son of God by the resurrection from the dead. [Rom 1:4] Without the death, no resurrection; without resurrection, no declaration as son of God.
Quote
Or do you say "Adam had no everlasting life contract so he just stays dead forever."
Not at all. Adam has as much chance as any man if he repented. All sins past are covered by the blood of Christ. [Rom 3:25]
Seems I made some very confusing typo's/mistakes....
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 09:03:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 16, 2010, 08:37:18 PM
Theo,
You wrote down some examples of old contracts that still are present. Like the rainbow and death.
You made you point very clear that the contracts extebd into the future.
But do you think the contracts also extend into the past?
Actually my point was NOT that the contracts extend into the future, but rather the CONSEQUENCES of some of the contracts are still effective.
That's what I understood. I gave rainbow as an example but should have written the effects/concequeses are stil effective :sigh:
QuoteAs for extending into the past. No! If the age of grace extended backward, it would eliminate the meaning of "age of" in the expression, by changing it to "ages of."
Here also.... the effects of the contract. :sigh:
QuoteQuote
For example does the age of grace also benefits Adam?
The age of grace is totally tied to the death and resurrection of Jesus, and it does not extend, it applies, to all ages. He died for all sins past. [Rom 3:25]
Agreed.
QuoteQuote
Does the death and resurrection also benefit Jesus?
Most assuredly. He was declared to be the son of God by the resurrection from the dead. [Rom 1:4] Without the death, no resurrection; without resurrection, no declaration as son of God.
:sigh: :sigh:
I think I should just delete my message and you your reply. It gets very messed up this way :thumbdown:
I should have written does the death and ressurrection of Jesus also benefits Adam?
(you already answered that)
QuoteQuote
Or do you say "Adam had no everlasting life contract so he just stays dead forever."
Not at all. Adam has as much chance as any man if he repented. All sins past are covered by the blood of Christ. [Rom 3:25]
I agree with that conclusion. Basicly I just wanted to know if you think the effects/concequences also benefit those who lived before the contract. I got my answer.
Sorry for a post with so many mistakes.... :spank:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 16, 2010, 09:03:28 PMNot at all. Adam has as much chance as any man if he repented. All sins past are covered by the blood of Christ. [Rom 3:25]
If he didn't is he out of luck or does he get another chance after he gets resurrected?
Or what about the people that never heard of Father or Son?
what happened while away ???? LOL.. :msealed:
The same standard is set Jesus come to fulfil the Law
the Spirit dwelling within you [being the temple of the Lord /His possesion ] will keep all the law
seeing that the main ones of OT are still in effect here ...
highlighted them Romans 13
8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
so if you Love God and your neighbour as yourself
seems the laws requirements keeps you in check :icon_flower: ...
The possibility exists that Jesus came to show that man had the wrong idea about how the law was supposed to be upheld in the first place.
Jesus came to fulfill it, not to condemn it which means he came to show man what it really means.
I do not believe the bible has anything to do with the law of the land I.E. life in prison for murder.
Jesus came to tell us that you can murder in your heart, a crime that is not punishable by the law of the land because it can be kept secret from all men.
Jesus did not come to tell us that murder was now ok.
The prostitute Jesus protected from the pharasees was told to go sin no more, Jesus did not abolish adultery as if there was nothing wrong with it, he showed us that the old way of doing things was wrong all along.
This is why I have come to see that the old testament was not about the physical consequenses God condoned but a picture of what God does to us spiritually, however even then man was not in understanding of how we are supposed to treat one another concerning spirituality.
This is a different matter concerning the law of the land. Human have to protect one another from each other in a different way. I do not believe there is anything wrong with a person getting a life sentence for murder, because we have no true way to know when a murderer is repentant just because he says he is, man is not obligated to believe someone because of that. So we do have to enact things where people suffer the consequenses.
Spiritually however, we can love the murderer in our hearts and understand that it is still ok to have laws of the land.
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2010, 10:47:55 PM
what happened while away ???? LOL.. :msealed:
The same standard is set Jesus come to fulfil the Law
the Spirit dwelling within you [being the temple of the Lord /His possesion ] will keep all the law
seeing that the main ones of OT are still in effect here ...
highlighted them Romans 13
8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
so if you Love God and your neighbour as yourself
seems the laws requirements keeps you in check :icon_flower: ...
Changing of the covenant requires also a changing of the laws. Just because many of the commandments on the tablets of stone are reiterated under Christ, does not mean they are still applied from the law of Moses. They are newly stated under Christ, therefore new applications form new laws. The law of Moses was done away.
The law of love in Christ Jesus incorporated many likeminded laws, but they are not old laws brought forward accross covenants, they are new laws, newly ordained by our new Lord and Saviour.
Quote from: jabcat on March 15, 2010, 07:10:34 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 15, 2010, 12:58:04 AM
I do think I would stop telling men there are no eternal consequences for disobedience, until I examined this understanding thoroughly.
Ephesians 1:10 "in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him"
I do think I would stop telling men they would be tortured eternally in a mistranslated place called "hell", until I examined this understanding thoroughly.
But I don't tell men that. I tell men "study the issues." We have been misled on so many, we need to recheck them all.
Sorry I'm having such a hard time understanding the point you are trying to make and thank you for putting so much time into your response to my post this morning.
I would like to try and summarize your "best argument AGAINST Universal Salvation" and then maybe you could help my understanding of what you are trying to say once again, because I just can't seem to get it. Here's what I think you are saying:
1. God communicates how he wants to deal with different groups of men at different times and in different ways with different sets of expectations and consequences. These may be the same or different from time to time but regardless, each group of men is accountable for what God tells them. You, and in some cases the Bible, refer to these communications as covenants or contracts.
2. In the New Covenant Christ sets forth the set of expectations and consequences for men in the current age and that includes eternal blessings or eternal torment.
3. Therefore Universal Salvation is false.
I seriously am not trying to poke fun here, I just don't get it and I want to. Perhaps someone else could help explain from a different perspective what Theo Book is saying because I must be missing it.
Quote from: SteveW on March 17, 2010, 01:32:54 AM
Sorry I'm having such a hard time understanding the point you are trying to make and thank you for putting so much time into your response to my post this morning.
I would like to try and summarize your "best argument AGAINST Universal Salvation" and then maybe you could help my understanding of what you are trying to say once again, because I just can't seem to get it. Here's what I think you are saying:
1. God communicates how he wants to deal with different groups of men at different times and in different ways with different sets of expectations and consequences. These may be the same or different from time to time but regardless, each group of men is accountable for what God tells them. You, and in some cases the Bible, refer to these communications as covenants or contracts.
2. In the New Covenant Christ sets forth the set of expectations and consequences for men in the current age and that includes eternal blessings or eternal torment.
3. Therefore Universal Salvation is false.
I seriously am not trying to poke fun here, I just don't get it and I want to. Perhaps someone else could help explain from a different perspective what Theo Book is saying because I must be missing it.
My introduction to Universal Salvation as a doctrine, was from a confrontation with Gary Amirault twelve years agoe, and we were still debating it ten years ago. The primary issues at that time were Whittemore's article and other claims by Amirault that we discussed in depth.
I have not enough ego to claim "I won" because we were still in disagreement when we parted, but I have never been back to the issue until now. I see he still has Whittemore's article posted, and the article claiming "God never warned the first covenanteers, so he must be a monster..." and assumed it was still the basis for his claims. I also expected to see him as the chief opposition. Understanding the separation of covenants denies the one argument about the "warnings not made" and I have never seen rebuttal to the debate point I made with Gary. Disagreement yes, rebuttal, no.
I am beginning to see a much different issue developed on this board, and that is why I am discussing instead of challenging, though my OP may well be taken for a challenge.
Basically yes, eternal torment would negate universal salvation. Just because the term is not found in some verses does not mean it is not found in some other verses. ALL verses must be considered together.
Not everybody is going to hear the Lord, though all are invited to listen.
I Cor 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Quote from: Theo Book
Not everybody is going to hear the Lord, though all are invited to listen.
I Cor 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
This is talking about speaking in tongues but the reason they will not hear is because God has blinded them and shut their ears (2Cor. 3:14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail UNTAKEN away. (Rom. 11:8) According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.
CHB
Hi Theo,
This is how I see it so plainly. You are quite right when you say all scripure must be looked at. But we can also say if something is crystal clear in scripture, no other scripture can contradict it.
NIV
1 Tim 2:3This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
KJV
1 Tim 2:3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Now some people like to debate the plain meaning here, but Theo, do you agree that these verses can only mean one thing? That God wants to have all men saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth? And by all men it really means all men - God wants to save every single individual who has ever existed?
If we have agreement here, then we can move on.
Now, we agree God desires to save all. The next question is will God achieve His desires?
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him?
He does whatever he pleases.
Now again, are these scriptures not crystal clear? God will do whatever He pleases. And it pleases Him to save all men, since He desires to save all men, wouldn't you agree?
So, one further point of objection might be the will of man. You might object and say that some men will reject God forever. But scripture also speaks to this matter:
Psalm 22:29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
Isaiah 45:22 [NASB] "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"
Again we see scripture is completely clear. All will bow and confess, even swear allegiance to Christ. All will joyfully praise and worship Him.
So to summarize:
- God wants to save all men
- God acheives all that He wants
- no one will reject Christ forever
- because all men will want to be saved (eventually)
God wants to save all men, and all men will want to be saved -> IT WILL HAPPEN!
Now given that all scripture must be in harmony, and these scriptures are crystal clear as to what will happen, other scriptures that allege "eternal hell" must be misinterpreted, or scripture is BROKEN. I don't think the scripture is broken. UR is as simple as believing these verses and believing no other verse can contradict them.
Quote from: CHB on March 17, 2010, 06:51:54 PM
Quote from: Theo Book
Not everybody is going to hear the Lord, though all are invited to listen.
I Cor 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
This is talking about speaking in tongues but the reason they will not hear is because God has blinded them and shut their ears (2Cor. 3:14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail UNTAKEN away. (Rom. 11:8) According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.
CHB
Tell me one thing CHB - will God condemn evil men or Will God justify the wicked?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 17, 2010, 09:28:53 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 17, 2010, 06:51:54 PM
Quote from: Theo Book
Not everybody is going to hear the Lord, though all are invited to listen.
I Cor 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
This is talking about speaking in tongues but the reason they will not hear is because God has blinded them and shut their ears (2Cor. 3:14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail UNTAKEN away. (Rom. 11:8) According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.
CHB
Tell me one thing CHB - will God condemn evil men or Will God justify the wicked?
CHB can give an answer I'm sure, but here is mine:
Christ died for the ungodly (thats the wicked and the evil - it includes you and me), so that the wicked and the evil would be
made righteous.
Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for
all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for
all men.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man
the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man
the many will be made righteous.
Its the same "the many" who were made sinners that will be made righteous. Why is it "the many"? Its referring to a group, whose numbers are many - meaning a large amount.
Quote from: Theo Book
Tell me one thing CHB - will God condemn evil men or Will God justify the wicked?
Hi Theo,
(Rom 3:24) Being JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
(Psalms 93:15) But judgment shall return unto righteousness;
(Hos. 10:12) for it is time to seek the Lord, till HE COME AND RAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS UPON YOU.
Can't remember where to find this right now but it says "when the Lord is in the earth the inhabitants will learn righteousness"
To be justified and righteous is a gift of God just like everything else is.
(Phil. 2:10) All will one day bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
CHB
willieH: Hi TB... :cloud9:
You are quite the busy "new guy" eh? :laughing7:
Do you think you have made any headway here in bringing your sorrowful position? :dontknow:
I'm not CHB... but I will be answering this question you posed below to her:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 17, 2010, 09:28:53 PM
Tell me one thing CHB - will God condemn evil men or Will God justify the wicked?
FIRST -- The answer to this question is HE shall JUSTIFY, for it is written:
Rom 5:18 --
therefore, as by the OFFENSE of ONE judgment came upon ALL MEN to CONDEMNATION... even so, by the RIGHTEOUSNESS of ONE, the free gift came upon ALL MEN, unto JUSTIFICATION of LIFE Why you ask? :Chinscratch:
Rom 5:20 --
moreover the Law entered, that the OFFENSE might abound... But, where SIN abounded [in any amount or degree - for none is specified] ...GRACE did ...MUCH ...MORE ...ABOUND! ALL men are DESPARATELY
WICKED of HEART --
Jer 17:9 --
ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD --
Rom 3:23 -- there is
NONE RIGHTEOUS, no NOT ONE --
Rom 3:10-13 -- Psalm 14:1-3ALL includes you and I and everyone else... :dontknow:
SECOND --
CHRIST came to do the
WILL of the Father, and so stated this --
John 4:34 -- within said "will" is stated within the dispatching of the
WORD, was that IT was sent
NOT to
CONDEMN --
John 3:17 --
If
CHRIST were to
CONDEMN and/or the Father were to
CONDEMN, both would exhibit HYPOCRISY and both would exhibit CHANGE... and the Scriptures thereby demoted to a farce. Fortunately for
ALL, the Scriptures are TRUE, and UNCHANGING... And thank GOD it is your RELIGIOUS perception which is found, awry.
Both the Father and His Son (the
WORD), do
NOT CHANGE, ...neither do either of them CONDEMN. :boogie: Which IS GOOD NEWS for ALL men... For THEY are united in the Harmony and success generated by their LOVE, and SO LOVE the WORLD, which was/is/will be, in need of SAVING... and which They SHALL SAVE, in spite of the misled teachings of the SELF CENTERED RELIGION which proclaims Salvation for themselves, and teaches that OTHERS (God SO LOVES) shall not gain it.
MEN are quite busily condemning others, and this position, is sorrowfully seen WITHIN YOU and your proclamations here at TM...
As you stand in our midst, going from one self-created thread to another -- CAMPAIGNING for CONDEMNATION to be taught, ...when
YHVH GOD sent His Son
NOT to CONDEMN and
CHRIST noted that His work was about doing the WILL of the Father, ...
YHVH GOD... :mshock:
The
WORD does NOT CONDEMN, brother Theo Book, but such men as yourself, bear the BAD NEWS message of CONDEMNATION which in NO WAY, SHAPE or FORM, can be considered GOOD NEWS... :sigh:
Your ears presently do not HEAR now as we speak to you... but one day to your chagrin, shall you HEAR
WORDS from Him, you shall not wish to hear:
Matt 7:22-23 --
MANY will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord have WE not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works... and then will I profess unto them... DEPART from Me, YE that WORK INIQUITY.Time for
YOU to rethink your position, as well as the hardened "shape" of your misled teachings. Which in their state of horror, ...are noted to others :pitiful: but (fortunately and conveniently for YOU) do not INCLUDE YOU... :thumbdown:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
willie,
Am not sure but I think Theo has left the building.
CHB
Quote from: willieH on March 18, 2010, 02:45:16 AM
willieH: Hi TB... :cloud9:
You are quite the busy "new guy" eh? :laughing7:
Do you think you have made any headway here in bringing your sorrowful position? :dontknow:
I'm not CHB... but I will be answering this question you posed below to her:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 17, 2010, 09:28:53 PM
Tell me one thing CHB - will God condemn evil men or Will God justify the wicked?
FIRST -- The answer to this question is HE shall JUSTIFY, for it is written:
Rom 5:18 -- therefore, as by the OFFENSE of ONE judgment came upon ALL MEN to CONDEMNATION... even so, by the RIGHTEOUSNESS of ONE, the free gift came upon ALL MEN, unto JUSTIFICATION of LIFE
Why you ask? :Chinscratch:
Because God established a standard long ago that has not changed. There is a difference between justifying the wicked, and bringing the wicked to justification.
[Exo 23:7...for I will not justify the wicked.] and also says anyone who does so is abominable to the Lord [Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.]
Quote from: CHB on March 17, 2010, 11:33:50 PM
Quote from: Theo Book
Tell me one thing CHB - will God condemn evil men or Will God justify the wicked?
Hi Theo,
(Rom 3:24) Being JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
(Psalms 93:15) But judgment shall return unto righteousness;
(Hos. 10:12) for it is time to seek the Lord, till HE COME AND RAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS UPON YOU.
Can't remember where to find this right now but it says "when the Lord is in the earth the inhabitants will learn righteousness"
[Isa 26:9-10]
QuoteTo be justified and righteous is a gift of God just like everything else is.
(Phil. 2:10) All will one day bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
CHB
Agreed! There is a difference however, between being justified and being brought to justification.
Just as Christ said, "When I am lifted up I will draw all men to me." There is action in the verb "draw." A response is required. much like a magnet draws mettle, the metal moves to the magnet. Christ was on that cross, to which we move when we repent.
And you are correct, every knee and head will react to the Lordship of Jesus. Voluntary in this life or forced to in the next. Now it is an option, in the next life it will be mandatory.
Hi Theo. I'd like to ask if you could see the possibility of everything that is not of God, will be condemned and destroyed - but with the end result being repentance, cleansing, and finally reconciliation and redemption? Maybe don't get stuck on "you think everybody and everything's already OK, and I can't buy that". See, I don't either. I just believe God has a process, a plan for the ages in which all that's not of Him is judged, destroyed, corrected, but then all gathered together in Jesus - through faith in Him, when every knee eventually bows and every tongue confesses. If one can get past the "but what about consequences, judgment, punishment", etc., and say "yes, those exist"...but what's the purpose, what's God's ultimate plan, and what's the end result? If one can get to that point, then there are a couple hundred scriptures I could share with you that will then make a whole lot of sense and reconcile to the fact of a loving God, who will rescue His creation. James.
Quote from: Theo Book
Just as Christ said, "When I am lifted up I will draw all men to me." There is action in the verb "draw." A response is required. much like a magnet draws mettle, the metal moves to the magnet. Christ was on that cross, to which we move when we repent.
And you are correct, every knee and head will react to the Lordship of Jesus. Voluntary in this life or forced to in the next. Now it is an option, in the next life it will be mandatory.
The right word here is DRAG not draw. I think when all is said and done that everyone will bow the knee voluntarily and no one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3) Middle of verse. "that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit".
Can metal resist the power of a magnet?
CHB
Thanks for the background Theo and I have to say, I do really appreciate the tone of your posts. They aren't inflammatory at all and really foster honest sharing.
I think I am understanding your argument better now and here is my off the cuff response.
1. I don't believe you can treat God's interaction with Adam like you do the other old testament covenants. God said to Adam "you will surely die". Yet obviously the ramifications for Adam of his sin applied to not only him but to all of his offspring for as long as there were men. Regardless of the terms actually explained to Adam, this was the consequence. It was a universal (for all men) consequence and no man is exempt from it.
2. Christ is contrasted specifically to Adam and His work is painted as specifically contradicting the consequences of Adam's action. "The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification" (Rom 5). Paul doesn't make a distinction here. He doesn't say the judment of death followed Adam's sin and the judgment of eternal damnation followed the sin of not believing on Christ. I think it is clear he has one judgment in mind. What that judgment is (death or eternal torment) is what we are debating.
3. When portraying the final judgment John makes no distinction between the covenants. In Rev 20 the sea and death and hades give up their dead and they are all judged, without regard to what covenant they were under. Then death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire and if anyone's name is not in the book of life they are thrown into the lake of fire. Whatever this means there is absolutely nothing to indicate that it is all the dead.
4. The Bible doesn't indicate separate judgments for separate covenants. It indicates an ultimate judgment for all.
5. Ergo, the idea of God not warning anyone until the time of Christ of the ultimate consequences of Adams sin (if they were eternal torment and not death) for all man kind, not just those who died since the time of Christ, is a hard pill to swallow.
I swallowed that pill, and the pill of a loving God sending most of mankind to hell for eternity, faithfully for a long time. Thank God that biblically I can choose not to swallow it anymore!
Quote from: CHB on March 18, 2010, 05:52:42 AMCan metal resist the power of a magnet?
You know that's kind of funny. I don't know the word for it. Precious perhaps?
Precious metals like gold and silver aren't pulled by the magnet. But scrap metal is :winkgrin:
Who you think are sinners and who are the saints mrs Goldilocks :laughing7:
Quote from: CHB on March 18, 2010, 05:52:42 AM
Quote from: Theo Book
Just as Christ said, "When I am lifted up I will draw all men to me." There is action in the verb "draw." A response is required. much like a magnet draws mettle, the metal moves to the magnet. Christ was on that cross, to which we move when we repent.
And you are correct, every knee and head will react to the Lordship of Jesus. Voluntary in this life or forced to in the next. Now it is an option, in the next life it will be mandatory.
The right word here is DRAG not draw. I think when all is said and done that everyone will bow the knee voluntarily and no one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3) Middle of verse. "that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit".
Can metal resist the power of a magnet?
CHB
Hi C. I SO agree with you. I'd like to add something cool though to your already good post. I've checked it out a bit, and an even more literal translation is "IN the Holy Spirit" - in my view, an even
stronger statement of fact! :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2010, 08:08:15 AMmore literal translation is "IN the Holy Spirit" - in my view, an even stronger statement of fact!
Yep. A sinner needs Jesus but obviously is without HS. And without HS the sinner can't call upon Jesus. So mankind is trapped in a circle only God can break.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 18, 2010, 08:30:14 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2010, 08:08:15 AMmore literal translation is "IN the Holy Spirit" - in my view, an even stronger statement of fact!
Yep. A sinner needs Jesus but obviously is without HS. And without HS the sinner can't call upon Jesus. So mankind is trapped in a circle only God can break.
exactly
its how one sets his heart !
to understand the ways of God or rebel , that simple , I wonder if this is true ?
many scriptures speak of our hearts being set in one direction or the other and you can always turn this heart around towards the Lord , that is Gods mercy for all mankind :HeartThrob:
Psa 78:8 And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation [that]
set not their heart aright, and
whose spirit was not stedfast with God.
Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath
set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
Ecc 8:11 Because
sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore
the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Sgs 8:6 Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for
love [is] strong as death; jealousy [is] cruel as the grave: the coals thereof [are] coals of fire, [which hath a] most vehement flame.
love was what Jesus power was over death ! forgive them Father for they know not what they do .... :icon_flower:
Daniel set his heart to be chastened of the Lord and to understand , thats when the Lord blessed him and all whom knew of Daniel and His MIGHTY GOD
Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the
first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
and this goes on throughout the WORD OF GOD
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Mat 13:15 For this people's
heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should
understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. CONVERTED Strong's G1994 - epistrephō 1) transitively
a)
to turn to1) to the worship of the true God
b) to
cause to return, to bring back
1) to the love and obedience of God
2) to the love for the children
3)
to love wisdom and righteousness2) intransitively
a)
to turn to one's selfb) to turn one's self about, turn back
c) to return, turn back, come back
Quote from: rosered on March 18, 2010, 04:14:13 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 18, 2010, 08:30:14 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2010, 08:08:15 AMmore literal translation is "IN the Holy Spirit" - in my view, an even stronger statement of fact!
Yep. A sinner needs Jesus but obviously is without HS. And without HS the sinner can't call upon Jesus. So mankind is trapped in a circle only God can break.
exactly
its how one sets his heart !
Doesn't it mean how God sets (hardens) the heart?
I think this is how
Father breaks the above mentioend circle:
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....
I think that declaring is breaking the circle by sending the HS.... :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 18, 2010, 04:37:36 PM
Quote from: rosered on March 18, 2010, 04:14:13 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 18, 2010, 08:30:14 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2010, 08:08:15 AMmore literal translation is "IN the Holy Spirit" - in my view, an even stronger statement of fact!
Yep. A sinner needs Jesus but obviously is without HS. And without HS the sinner can't call upon Jesus. So mankind is trapped in a circle only God can break.
exactly
its how one sets his heart !
Doesn't it mean how God sets (hardens) the heart?
I think this is how Father breaks the above mentioend circle:
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....
I think that declaring is breaking the circle by sending the HS.... :dontknow:
thats right Bro T ,
but the HOLY SPIRIT has to clean up the temple first to remove the sin /error for it to dwell
you gotta want it to :thumbsup: and ask GOD and it shall be given !
HS is everything , all the fruits grow in the garden of GOD you , the kingdom of God is on you and in you than ....
If any of you
lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jam 1:6 But
let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
For
let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
faith Kicks it all in ! rember the man who asked Jesus to increse his faith ?
good example of getting things done
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7924.msg92511#msg92511
willieH: Hi Theo... :happygrin:
Quote from: willieH on March 18, 2010, 02:45:16 AM
willieH: Hi TB... :cloud9:
You are quite the busy "new guy" eh? :laughing7:
Do you think you have made any headway here in bringing your sorrowful position? :dontknow:
I'm not CHB... but I will be answering this question you posed below to her:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 17, 2010, 09:28:53 PM
Tell me one thing CHB - will God condemn evil men or Will God justify the wicked?
FIRST -- The answer to this question is HE shall JUSTIFY, for it is written:
Rom 5:18 -- therefore, as by the OFFENSE of ONE judgment came upon ALL MEN to CONDEMNATION... even so, by the RIGHTEOUSNESS of ONE, the free gift came upon ALL MEN, unto JUSTIFICATION of LIFE
Why you ask? :Chinscratch:
QuoteBecause God established a standard long ago that has not changed. There is a difference between justifying the wicked, and bringing the wicked to justification.
You cut off the point I was making (about GRACE and JUSTIFICATION) RIGHT in the middle of it! :laughing7: which went on to say IN the same CONTEXT:
Quote from: willieHWhy you ask? :Chinscratch:
Rom 5:20 -- moreover the Law entered, that the OFFENSE might abound... But, where SIN abounded [in any amount or degree - for none is specified] ...GRACE did ...MUCH ...MORE ...ABOUND!
ALL men are DESPARATELY WICKED of HEART -- Jer 17:9 -- ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD -- Rom 3:23 -- there is NONE RIGHTEOUS, no NOT ONE -- Rom 3:10-13 -- Psalm 14:1-3
ALL includes you and I and everyone else... :dontknow:
Then YOU, ...who are the "big advocate" of the "NEW CONTRACT" (NT), quote the OLD ONE to try to establish your foolishness! :mshock:
Quote from: Theo Book on March 18, 2010, 04:50:38 AM[Exo 23:7...for I will not justify the wicked.] and also says anyone who does so is abominable to the Lord [Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.]
God does not JUSTIFY the WICKEDNESS of SIN... but SAVES the ones which become enveloped IN IT... which are so noted as
WICKED,
and SINNERS...
Saving even ONE sinner... means that GOD in His GREAT and INFINITE WISDOM, has established DIVINE JUSTIFICATION of SINNERS, Theo... one of which is YOU! :mpardon:
How is YOUR SIN, which is
WICKED... "justified", TB? Is it "justified", because YOU did something in that process? For if YOU DID -- ANYTHING which resulted in YOUR SALVATION, and without it, you are NOT SAVED, ...then YOU are your own Savior... :sigh:
Well, I have already plainly explained it to you, and you refuse to observe that explanation... full of MUCH SPEAKING -- :blahgreen: -- but sorrowfully short on the quantity needed in LEARNING, ...of LISTENING... :doh:
As I noted...
GRACE MUCH MORE abounds... than does ANY and ALL -- SIN -- :nod: --
John 1:29But the BIBLICAL PREMISE of
GRACE (which JUSTIFIES) is INFINITELY more POWERFUL and ABUNDANT than SIN, ...does not "fit" to well, into your
BAD NEWS message, does it brother, Theo? :pitiful:
So let's face it bro, ...you shall persist in rejecting that [GRACE] which you seek to embrace... and bring the WORLD that GOD SO LOVES, ...an INCOMPLETE, UNVICTORIOUS and Sorrow filled excuse of a message you name as "the gospel", ...in the stead of the JOY which permeates the true message, of the COMPLETE VICTORY of the Cross of
JESUS CHRIST... the SAVIOR of the WORLD --
1 John 4:14 :bgdance:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2010, 05:12:43 AM
Hi Theo. I'd like to ask if you could see the possibility of everything that is not of God, will be condemned and destroyed - but with the end result being repentance, cleansing, and finally reconciliation and redemption?
At this point I have no problem with that other than all the scriptures that address eternal punishment. I have to wonder how it is that the original Christians (prior to second century) were able to add all those verses to scripture. I think the other Christians would be able to recognize a forgery and either reject them or warn against them.
Quote
Maybe don't get stuck on "you think everybody and everything's already OK, and I can't buy that". See, I don't either.
Fair enough.
QuoteI just believe God has a process, a plan for the ages in which all that's not of Him is judged, destroyed, corrected, but then all gathered together in Jesus - through faith in Him, when every knee eventually bows and every tongue confesses. If one can get past the "but what about consequences, judgment, punishment", etc., and say "yes, those exist"...but what's the purpose, what's God's ultimate plan, and what's the end result? If one can get to that point, then there are a couple hundred scriptures I could share with you that will then make a whole lot of sense and reconcile to the fact of a loving God, who will rescue His creation. James.
Share away.
(Theo)
Quote
Just as Christ said, "When I am lifted up I will draw all men to me." There is action in the verb "draw." A response is required. much like a magnet draws mettle, the metal moves to the magnet. Christ was on that cross, to which we move when we repent.
And you are correct, every knee and head will react to the Lordship of Jesus. Voluntary in this life or forced to in the next. Now it is an option, in the next life it will be mandatory.
(CHB) The right word here is DRAG not draw.
And you know this HOW?
elkuw {hel-koo'-o} Meaning: 1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel. [Universal Bible Society]
(CHB
QuoteI think when all is said and done that everyone will bow the knee voluntarily and no one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3) Middle of verse. "that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit".
If your remark demonstrates your understanding of that verse,... (And I am not saying it is wrong, just have a question)... does that mean that all the false teaching of denominationalsim comes from the Holy Spirit from the mouths of men who say "Jesus is Lord?"
(CHB)
QuoteCan metal resist the power of a magnet?
Yes. aluminum, gold , Silver, plenty of etceteras. That was not my point. Sinners are not gold, silver, and Aluminum,. they are the dross metals in my illustration. (I didn't make that very clear did I? Sorry). My point was that the drawing power of Jesus on the cross is similar to the drawing power of a magnet to dross metals. I should not have used the generic term "metal."
Quote from: Theo Book on March 19, 2010, 11:54:17 AM
(CHB) The right word here is DRAG not draw.
And you know this HOW?
elkuw {hel-koo'-o} Meaning: 1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel. [Universal Bible Society][/quote]Can't find it right now but there is a article on that topic. Somewhere...... anyone?
Anyway all the (possible) meanings from UBS seems God is drawing. Can man resist God?
Quote(CHBQuoteI think when all is said and done that everyone will bow the knee voluntarily and no one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3) Middle of verse. "that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit".
If your remark demonstrates your understanding of that verse,... (And I am not saying it is wrong, just have a question)... does that mean that all the flase teaching of denominationalsim comes from the Holy Spirit from the mouths of men who say "Jesus is Lord?"
No. They come from the
lack of HS because they are teachings of man.
QuoteYes. aluminum, gold , Silver, plenty of etceteras. That was not my point. Sinners are not gold, silver, and Aluminum,. they are the dross metals in my illustration.
Saints are silver/gold.
Sinners are also silver. Poluted silver. Father will refine/wash out all dirt/sin from the silver/gold...
KJVMal 3:2-3But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver
Quote from: Theo Book on March 19, 2010, 11:54:17 AM
Quote from: CHBThe right word here is DRAG not draw.
And you know this HOW?
elkuw {hel-koo'-o} Meaning: 1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel. [Universal Bible Society]
http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/179Not the article I mentioned earlier but perhaps of some use.
QuoteWe differ, however, on the particulars of this word draw. This Greek word helkuo means "to draw," literally or figuratively (Strong's #1670). When speaking of physical things, the Greek word means "to drag" (John 18.10; Acts 16.19; 21.30; James 2.6).
Quote from: Theo Book on March 19, 2010, 11:32:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2010, 05:12:43 AM
Hi Theo. I'd like to ask if you could see the possibility of everything that is not of God, will be condemned and destroyed - but with the end result being repentance, cleansing, and finally reconciliation and redemption?
At this point I have no problem with that other than all the scriptures that address eternal punishment. I have to wonder how it is that the original Christians (prior to second century) were able to add allo those verses to scripture. I think the other Christians would be able to recognize a forgery and either reject them or warn against them.
Quote
Maybe don't get stuck on "you think everybody and everything's already OK, and I can't buy that". See, I don't either.
Fair enough.
QuoteI just believe God has a process, a plan for the ages in which all that's not of Him is judged, destroyed, corrected, but then all gathered together in Jesus - through faith in Him, when every knee eventually bows and every tongue confesses. If one can get past the "but what about consequences, judgment, punishment", etc., and say "yes, those exist"...but what's the purpose, what's God's ultimate plan, and what's the end result? If one can get to that point, then there are a couple hundred scriptures I could share with you that will then make a whole lot of sense and reconcile to the fact of a loving God, who will rescue His creation. James.
Share away.
I don't believe "all of those verses" are spurrious, I believe much of it is translation and traditions of men that often make the Word of God of no effect. With all the exposure you've had, I'd guess you're probably already familiar with things like aion vs. eternal, and that hell is a mistranslation - that there is punishment, corrective punishment, temporal punishment, etc., but that "eternal hell" is not in the scriptures. I've already "shared away" with what I believe. Where are you at this point? Are you really hearing anything, in rejection/disprove mode, just honestly not sure? Lest
anything's not just one more thing we
think, in the end, God has to reveal to us. James.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 19, 2010, 11:54:17 AM
And you know this HOW?
elkuw {hel-koo'-o} Meaning: 1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel. [Universal Bible Society]
God draws men in the same way a soldier draws his sword and a fisherman draws in his net.
Does the sword decide if it wants to be drawn or not? Does the net decide if it wants to be drawn or not?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 18, 2010, 04:58:28 AM
And you are correct, every knee and head will react to the Lordship of Jesus. Voluntary in this life or forced to in the next. Now it is an option, in the next life it will be mandatory.
Scripture doesn't say they are
forced to bow in the next life. It just says they will. They do it willingly.
But think about what you are saying. If you say God won't force anyone to come to him in this life, why would He force anyone to bow in the next life? God doesn't need false praise, and that is all a forced confession/bowing would be.
Scripture in fact says all will willingly bow to God, swearing allegiance, confessing openly, and they will do it joyfully and with praise:
Isaiah 45:23 [NASB] I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will
swear allegiance.
Rev 5:13 And
every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Meaning for
confess G1843:
1) to confess
2) to profess
a) acknowledge
openly and
joyfullyb) to one's honour: to
celebrate, give
praise to
c) to profess that one will do something, to
promise,
agree, engage
This is no forced confession. God does not want a false confession.
(WhiteWing)
QuoteCan man resist God?
Always. Unless you think God is not the Holy Spirit????
Acts 7:51 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
Rom 13:2 "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God.."
Theo,
A general thought. There are layers in Bible. Some are very hard to understand. But the top layer imo just says things in a simple way. None of the layers contradict. Many/most of Jesus' audience were simple people. Because Jesus isn't some second hand carsalesman He speaks clear words. Words that can be understood without a 10 year study. I also think Jesus didn't teach everything in the NT at the same place.
We jump around in the Bible between various books to prove things. But is that needed? Is that how Jesus did spread the word? People that heard a sermon of Jesus often heard Him for the first and last time. They couldn't cross check between all of Jesus's speeches. To me it seems that would like teaching half truths.
Unless Jesus just means what He said. No hidden twist and references. Just plain, honest truth.
Revelation 5:13: "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"'
I can read it in no other way as very honest worship. Nothing near this verse indicates (part of) the mentioned people are lying to save their skin. So this, imo, proves the drawing was very effective.
(SteveW)
Quote
Thanks for the background Theo and I have to say, I do really appreciate the tone of your posts. They aren't inflammatory at all and really foster honest sharing.
I think I am understanding your argument better now and here is my off the cuff response.
1. I don't believe you can treat God's interaction with Adam like you do the other old testament covenants. God said to Adam "you will surely die". Yet obviously the ramifications for Adam of his sin applied to not only him but to all of his offspring for as long as there were men. Regardless of the terms actually explained to Adam, this was the consequence. It was a universal (for all men) consequence and no man is exempt from it.
I use the illustration of separation of covenants to offset the damage done by those who teach "inheritance of original sin, from Adam." There is no such doctrine in scripture.
As for it being a covenant with Adam, the meaning of the word translated covenant includes "arrangement, instruction," etc.
I do believe God had an understanding that he had given "Instruction" to Adam. And I do believe God explained to Adam the difference between obedience and disobedience. AND I do believe God had made clear to Adam, consequences for disobedience. That has all the marks of a covenant. I do not make it a test of fellowship, I simply express why God did nothave to warn Adam of any eternal consequences for what went on in the garden. It was not part of Adam's understanding because it never came up in their conversations. And the reason it did not come up in their conversations is the simple fact, if Adam obeyed, he alread "lived forever" under the arrangement already agreed to. It did not require an understanding of eternal consequences and eternal life. He knew no other kind.
I think each covenant was a growth of the [previous one because each covenant had deeper requirements that the previous one. For example, God made a covenant with Abraham, which covered two testaments, but his covenant with Abraham's children through Isaac, and Jacob, was limited to Jacob's children, through the law of Moses.
(Steve)
Quote2. Christ is contrasted specifically to Adam and His work is painted as specifically contradicting the consequences of Adam's action. "The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification" (Rom 5). Paul doesn't make a distinction here. He doesn't say the judment of death followed Adam's sin and the judgment of eternal damnation followed the sin of not believing on Christ. I think it is clear he has one judgment in mind. What that judgment is (death or eternal torment) is what we are debating.
Hmmm???
o.k. where to start???
"Contradicted" I think is not applicable here, because Christ did not "speak against" so much as he corrected the results in order for all men to avoid the consequences of living in a sincursed world.
The judgment did not follow "one sin," but rather the sin of one, Adam, which included the sin of Eve [Gen 5:2] who first did the deed. She was deceived [I Tim 2:14] and followed information that contradicted earlier instruction from God. Adam chose to fall with her rather than to live a life of solitary living, which he had alread tasted once. This directly addressses the doctrine of "original sin" because Eve committed the first sion, and the OSDoctrine claims sin is inherited through the father because Adam sinned first. It is of course theological speculation anyway, but proved untrue here.
(SteveW)
Quote
3. When portraying the final judgment John makes no distinction between the covenants. In Rev 20 the sea and death and hades give up their dead and they are all judged, without regard to what covenant they were under.
Do not put too much into the silence of scripture. John told that which he was inspired to write, by the Holy Spirit. He was not covering any covenant but the covenant of Grace.
And when Paul made reference to events under the law, it was always as a reference to prove a point he was establishing as from God. It never had to do wioth old testament characters sharing in the new covenant consequences.
(SteveW)
Quote
Then death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire and if anyone's name is not in the book of life they are thrown into the lake of fire. Whatever this means there is absolutely nothing to indicate that it is all the dead.
Nothing to indicate it was all, nor not all. I think I would allow its meaning to be determined by the covenant in which it was presented, and by the judgment.
(SteveW)
Quote4. The Bible doesn't indicate separate judgments for separate covenants. It indicates an ultimate judgment for all.
O.K. Reference please, for my information.
(SteveW)
Quote5. Ergo, the idea of God not warning anyone until the time of Christ of the ultimate consequences of Adams sin (if they were eternal torment and not death) for all man kind, not just those who died since the time of Christ, is a hard pill to swallow.
True. But it is not on my board, but it is on this one. THAT is what first drew me to question the issue.
It is an article found at http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
titled:THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE Doctrine of Endless Punishment BY THOMAS B.
THAYER
His use of references to God NOT warning old testament covenanteers, is still used on this board as an introductory reason to disbelieve "eternal torment." I consider "If the introductory source is in error, the result may well be also." The introductory source is very well in error, so I proceed with a view that the resultant doctrine may well be also.
As I have stated on several occasions, I do not claim to know very much, and test all things whether they are of God. since most of my study over the past fifty years has been on Trinity oriented issues, I know very little about USAL other than my debates with Gary and Laird years ago.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 19, 2010, 02:44:22 PM
Theo,
A general thought. There are layers in Bible. Some are very hard to understand. But the top layer imo just says things in a simple way. None of the layers contradict. Many/most of Jesus' audience were simple people. Because Jesus isn't some second hand carsalesman He speaks clear words. Words that can be understood without a 10 year study. I also think Jesus didn't teach everything in the NT at the same place.
We jump around in the Bible between various books to prove things. But is that needed? Is that how Jesus did spread the word? People that heard a sermon of Jesus often heard Him for the first and last time. They couldn't cross check between all of Jesus's speeches. To me it seems that would like teaching half truths.
Unless Jesus just means what He said. No hidden twist and references. Just plain, honest truth.
Revelation 5:13: "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"'
I can read it in no other way as very honest worship. Nothing near this verse indicates (part of) the mentioned people are lying to save their skin. So this, imo, proves the drawing was very effective.
Your argument sounds reasonable on the surface. I till think on it and get back to you at some point, on this one.
Quote from: legoman on March 19, 2010, 02:09:23 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 19, 2010, 11:54:17 AM
And you know this HOW?
elkuw {hel-koo'-o} Meaning: 1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel. [Universal Bible Society]
God draws men in the same way a soldier draws his sword and a fisherman draws in his net.
Does the sword decide if it wants to be drawn or not? Does the net decide if it wants to be drawn or not?
I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 19, 2010, 02:42:36 PM
(WhiteWing)QuoteCan man resist God?
Always. Unless you think God is not the Holy Spirit????
Acts 7:51 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
Rom 13:2 "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God.."
Having the ability to resist and devise a way in your heart is not inherant to the ability to overcome Gods intention.
Clay resists being formed, that is why the potter has to put pressure in the right places and the right ways.
While it may be said that we can always resist, scripture tells us the nature of things.
Ro 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Pr 16:9 . A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Quote from: Theo Book
I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.
Look at what you are saying here. You were drawn to her because of her innocence. Because nature is beautiful, you are drawn to it. You see neither one of these things starts with you. It is the same with us and God. We are drawn to him because of who and what he is and his influence. Don't you see here we are not the instigators he is.
I want to pose a question to you. If you believe that most will suffer in hell for all eternity, who paid that debt for us? If burning in hell is our punishment why isn't Jesus there now paying that debt. Some one would have to be willing to take our place in hell in order for us to stay out of it, wouldn't thay? Jesus died and was resurrected, no more no less. Wouldn't someone have to pay for our eternal burning if that is our punishment? That debt has not been paid for anyone. If eternal hell is our punishment then we are all destined to go there, wouldn't you say?
CHB
willieH: Hi CHB... :cloud9:
Quote from: CHB on March 19, 2010, 05:50:22 PM
Quote from: Theo Book
I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.
Look at what you are saying here. You were drawn to her because of her innocence. Because nature is beautiful, you are drawn to it. You see neither one of these things starts with you. It is the same with us and God. We are drawn to him because of who and what he is and his influence. Don't you see here we are not the instigators he is.
I want to pose a question to you. If you believe that most will suffer in hell for all eternity, who paid that debt for us? If burning in hell is our punishment why isn't Jesus there now paying that debt. Some one would have to be willing to take our place in hell in order for us to stay out of it, wouldn't thay? Jesus died and was resurrected, no more no less. Wouldn't someone have to pay for our eternal burning if that is our punishment? That debt has not been paid for anyone. If eternal hell is our punishment then we are all destined to go there, wouldn't you say?
CHB
Big amen on this, sis... :thumbsup:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 19, 2010, 05:21:15 PM
Having the ability to resist and devise a way in your heart is not inherant to the ability to overcome Gods intention.
Clay resists being formed, that is why the potter has to put pressure in the right places and the right ways.
While it may be said that we can always resist, scripture tells us the nature of things.
Ro 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Pr 16:9 . A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Good post :thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on March 19, 2010, 05:50:22 PM
Quote from: Theo Book
I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.
Look at what you are saying here. You were drawn to her because of her innocence. Because nature is beautiful, you are drawn to it. You see neither one of these things starts with you.
THAT was my point. "If I be lifted up "I" will draw" all men "unto me." This is not a "dragging," it is a drawing.
QuoteIt is the same with us and God. We are drawn to him because of who and what he is and his influence. Don't you see here we are not the instigators he is.
I want to pose a question to you. If you believe that most will suffer in hell for all eternity, who paid that debt for us? If burning in hell is our punishment why isn't Jesus there now paying that debt. Some one would have to be willing to take our place in hell in order for us to stay out of it, wouldn't thay? Jesus died and was resurrected, no more no less. Wouldn't someone have to pay for our eternal burning if that is our punishment? That debt has not been paid for anyone. If eternal hell is our punishment then we are all destined to go there, wouldn't you say?
CHB
Wrong!
But I won't convince you in one small post. I do have a question for you though.
Why did Jesus die for us if we are only going to perish after we get to heaven? Why suffer all that stuff he suffered if our salvation is only for a breath of time?
(legoman)
Quote
Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
I thought USalv didn't believe in eternal salvation.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:52:33 AM
(legoman)Quote
Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
I thought USalv didn't believe in eternal salvation.
Ummm, I'm not sure what you mean here?
Believers in Christian UR understand that all will be saved eventually, and will live on endlessly with God; all will be made immortal, and God will be all in all.
Quote from: legoman on March 20, 2010, 03:41:13 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:52:33 AM
(legoman)Quote
Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
I thought USalv didn't believe in eternal salvation.
Ummm, I'm not sure what you mean here?
Believers in Christian UR understand that all will be saved eventually, and will live on endlessly with God; all will be made immortal, and God will be all in all.
Yes, I understand that part. The part I don't understand is, there are so many arguments made on USAL boards that "aiwna" means for an age, not eternally, yet the same language is used to describe eternal life as is used to describe everlasting punishment.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Look now at the Greek words that apply to this conundrum.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into [aiwnion = accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life [aiwnion = accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal.
The punishment phase will last just as long as the salvation phase, or both will end at the same time.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 03:55:36 PM
Quote from: legoman on March 20, 2010, 03:41:13 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:52:33 AM
(legoman)Quote
Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
I thought USalv didn't believe in eternal salvation.
Ummm, I'm not sure what you mean here?
Believers in Christian UR understand that all will be saved eventually, and will live on endlessly with God; all will be made immortal, and God will be all in all.
Yes, I understand that part. The part I don't understand is, there are so many arguments made on USAL boards that "aiwna" means for an age, not eternally, yet the same language is used to describe eternal life as is used to describe everlasting punishment.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Look now at the Greek words that apply to this conundrum.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into [aiwnion = accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life [aiwnion = accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal.
The punishment phase will last just as long as the salvation phase, or both will end at the same time.
OK first of all, did you even contemplate the scriptures I posted previously that say everyone will bow and swear allegiance to God? Does scripture contradict scripture? You are running from point to point here. You claimed people are forced to bow to God, but scripture plainly says otherwise. All will swear allegiance to God, all will worship Him and praise Him joyfully, willingly. Follow? Now if that is so (and it is), how can some be sent into punishment for eternity? Are they praising God joyfully while they are in hell? Are you beginning to see the cracks in
your doctrine yet?
Secondly, Matthew 25:46 has been addressed many times on this forum and in various articles on tentmaker and elsewhere. Perhaps you should search it out a bit more. The error you make here is the same error other opponents of UR make:
You assume "aionion" is referring to a duration; ie. if it doesn't mean eternal it must mean temporary, right? Not so fast. Aionion means neither eternal nor temporary. Now there is debate on this, but in general, it means something along these lines:
- pertaining to eons
- continuing through eons
- relating to eons
- age-abiding/age-enduring
Now specifically on Matt 25:46.
The life is pertaining to eons, and the punishment is pertaining to eons. Does this mean when the eons end, that the life ends? NO, because elsewhere we are ALSO told that we are given immortality, and death is defeated, therefore ultimately no one will ever be dead permanently and all will be resurrected (all are made alive in Christ).
As for the punishment, it is also pertaining to the eons. But how do we know it stops when the eons are done? Because no where does the bible speak of endless punishment. It only ever speaks of punishment pertaining to eons or for eons. The punishment is not "immortal" or "endless".
Now some might argue and say God is also described as "aionion" or eonian. Does this mean God "dies" when the eons end? No of course not. Again it only means God pertains and relates to these eons we live in right now. But He also transcends them because He created the eons, and also He is immortal and endless.
Peace out...
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:38:05 AM
Quote from: CHB on March 19, 2010, 05:50:22 PM
Quote from: Theo Book
I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.
Look at what you are saying here. You were drawn to her because of her innocence. Because nature is beautiful, you are drawn to it. You see neither one of these things starts with you.
THAT was my point. "If I be lifted up "I" will draw" all men "unto me." This is not a "dragging," it is a drawing.
QuoteIt is the same with us and God. We are drawn to him because of who and what he is and his influence. Don't you see here we are not the instigators he is.
I want to pose a question to you. If you believe that most will suffer in hell for all eternity, who paid that debt for us? If burning in hell is our punishment why isn't Jesus there now paying that debt. Some one would have to be willing to take our place in hell in order for us to stay out of it, wouldn't thay? Jesus died and was resurrected, no more no less. Wouldn't someone have to pay for our eternal burning if that is our punishment? That debt has not been paid for anyone. If eternal hell is our punishment then we are all destined to go there, wouldn't you say?
CHB
Wrong!
But I won't convince you in one small post. I do have a question for you though.
Why did Jesus die for us if we are only going to perish after we get to heaven? Why suffer all that stuff he suffered if our salvation is only for a breath of time?
Drag or draw, we will get there one way or the other. His drawing and draging is much stronger than I.
Don't know what you are talking about when you say we will perish after we get to heaven? Where did you get that idea? Also, our salvation will never end but ages and time will, that is where the difference is.
In Matt. 25 Jesus is talking about the kingdom which was promised to the Israelites. This kingdom has a beginning and an end. When all is in all then time will end and so will the kingdom. Jesus is speaking about this time frame. Do you remember that Jesus said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24).
How do you reconcile Jesus statement about everlasting punishment which was directed at Israel with what Paul said about "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED"?
(Rom. 11:25-27) "For I would not, brethern, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:.. {it doesn't say here that they will turn away on their own}...For this is my covenant unto them, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS". It doesn't say "when they get rid of their sins".
You said I was wrong but didn't tell me where and how I was wrong.
CHB
(TB)
QuoteI don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.
(CHB)Look at what you are saying here. You were drawn to her because of her innocence. Because nature is beautiful, you are drawn to it. You see neither one of these things starts with you.
(TB)THAT was my point. "If I be lifted up "I" will draw" all men "unto me." This is not a "dragging," it is a drawing.
(CHB) It is the same with us and God. We are drawn to him because of who and what he is and his influence. Don't you see here we are not the instigators he is.
Wait a minute. back up and reread the post. I already pointed it out to you, I will try again with brackets. "If I [Jesus] be lifted up, I[Jesus] will draw all men [you, me, all others] to me [Jesus]. Do you see it? HE draws US. I think we are in agreement here.
(CHB)
QuoteI want to pose a question to you. If you believe that most will suffer in hell for all eternity, who paid that debt for us? If burning in hell is our punishment why isn't Jesus there now paying that debt.
I think that's more than "a" question. I'll try to make it clear this time. First, I do not think in superlatives, like "most," because I think it will pretty well even out. I think the uses of numbers and superlatives in scripture is to catch our attention, because even scripture tells us the number of the saved is so inclusive it has not been numbered -
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
(CHB)
QuoteSome one would have to be willing to take our place in hell in order for us to stay out of it, wouldn't thay?
Only if YOU were put in charge of guilt and penalties. God said that the blood of Jesus was sufficient to pay the ransom for all. Nothing has ever been said in scripture about anyone taking anyone else's place in the punishment. That was never the price for sin.
Death is the wages of sin, and Jesus "tasted of death for every man." THAT was sufficient.
(CHB)
QuoteJesus died and was resurrected, no more no less. Wouldn't someone have to pay for our eternal burning if that is our punishment? That debt has not been paid for anyone. If eternal hell is our punishment then we are all destined to go there, wouldn't you say?
I shall try to clarify the issue.
Death is the wages of sin, announced to the living for the purpose of giving the living time to repent. some will, some won't. The decision is theirs.
Death carries two meanings in scripture; separation of man's soul from his body is first; separation of man's soul from God, is second. This is covered in scripture by reference to first and second death.
The blood of Jesus is the blood of the covenant under which we live. THAT value has been stipulated, accomodated, and paid. That blood covers all the sins of men from the beginning. All other covenants have always looked forward to the cross of Christ. OUR
covenant looks back to that same cross.
God is a God of antitheses. God of love, God of vengeance; God of mercy, God of jealousy. All aspects of God have their opposite in that same God. AND all his creation is a creation of opposites. Order, Chaos; Beauty, ugliness; rich, poor; old, young; light, dark; etc. cursing, blessing; Punishment, reward.
(TB) Wrong!
But I won't convince you in one small post. I do have a question for you though.
Why did Jesus die for us if we are only going to perish after we get to heaven? Why suffer all that stuff he suffered if our salvation is only for a breath of time?
(CHB) Don't know what you are talking about when you say we will perish after we get to heaven? Where did you get that idea? Also, our salvation will never end but ages and time will, that is where the difference is.
In Matt. 25 Jesus is talking about the kingdom which was promised to the Israelites. This kingdom has a beginning and an end. When all is in all then time will end and so will the kingdom. Jesus is speaking about this time frame. Do you remember that Jesus said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24).
How do you reconcile Jesus statement about everlasting punishment which was directed at Israel with what Paul said about "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED"?
(Rom. 11:25-27) "For I would not, brethern, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:.. {it doesn't say here that they will turn away on their own}...For this is my covenant unto them, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS". It doesn't say "when they get rid of their sins".
You said I was wrong but didn't tell me where and how I was wrong.[/quote]
Right! Sorry 'bout that! I had to go to the hospital to bring my wife home. My mind has been slightly divided for a month now. I really do apologize.
You are correct, Paul does tell us "all Israel will be saved," But he tells us also who it is that constitutes "all Israel.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
When the Jews refused to hear, God gave them a spirit of slumber, brought in the Gentiles by the gospel of Christ, and made them children of Israel by faith of Abraham.
"All Israel will be saved" is a reference to the fact all who have the faith in God like Abraham's faith, will be counted for the seed.
Rom 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Gal 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
Quote from: Theo
Only if YOU were put in charge of guilt and penalties. God said that the blood of Jesus was sufficient to pay the ransom for all. Nothing has ever been said in scripture about anyone taking anyone else's place in the punishment. That was never the price for sin.
Death is the wages of sin, and Jesus "tasted of death for every man." THAT was sufficient.
There you go!!!! Amen. The wages of sin is DEATH not an everlasting tormenting state.
If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus tasted death for every man, please tell me, what are people going to hell for?
I won't get into Covenants much, although I will say I am not under any Covenant, the Covenants were for Israel, not Gentile as you quoted in your post.
Quote from: Theo Book
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises
Sorry about your wife being in the hospital. Both of you are in my prayers.
CHB
(Theo)
Quote
Only if YOU were put in charge of guilt and penalties. God said that the blood of Jesus was sufficient to pay the ransom for all. Nothing has ever been said in scripture about anyone taking anyone else's place in the punishment. That was never the price for sin.
Death is the wages of sin, and Jesus "tasted of death for every man." THAT was sufficient.
(CHB)There you go!!!! Amen. The wages of sin is DEATH not an everlasting tormenting state.
If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus tasted death for every man, please tell me, what are people going to hell for?
I won't get into Covenants much, although I will say I am not under any Covenant, the Covenants were for Israel, not Gentile as you quoted in your post.
(Theo)
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises
Under the covenant of grace, there are no gentiles and jews; all are one in Chrtist Jesus.
(CHB)
Sorry about your wife being in the hospital. Both of you are in my prayers.
CHB
Thank you. You are very gracious.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 --
As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just
AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall
ALL shall made alive
IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says
ALL will be made alive in Christ, NOT
All in Christ will be made alive.
Theo, you change the order of the words and the meaning of the verse.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says nothing of the kind concerning "losing".
Quote
G5618 hosper hoce'-per
from G5613 and G4007;
just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse.
EXACTLY LIKE in adam ALL die , SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says nothing of the kind concerning "losing".
Quote
G5618 hosper hoce'-per
from G5613 and G4007;
just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse.
EXACTLY LIKE in adam ALL die , SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.
Quote from: legoman on March 21, 2010, 03:08:38 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
(theo)QuoteAll who are in christ are the seed of Abraham[/b][/color]; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
(legoman)1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says ALL will be made alive in Christ, NOT All in Christ will be made alive.
Theo, you change the order of the words and the meaning of the verse.
Fair assessment.
Consider John 1:1 in which the natural Greek word order is changed to make proper grammatical sense in translated English.
So also, as Apes and monkeys are not covered in the covenant of Christ's blood because theya re not "in Adam; so also, those who are not "IN CHRIST" are not covered in the blood of the covenant, which is the blood of Christ. We get into Christ by being baptized into Christ. All God's children will be saved IN CHRIST. But they must be "IN CHRIST" to become a child of God.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says nothing of the kind concerning "losing".
Quote
G5618 hosper hoce'-per
from G5613 and G4007;
just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse.
EXACTLY LIKE in adam ALL die , SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.
The verse does not contain the words "all who are not in christ" so why then should I consider that they are?
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says nothing of the kind concerning "losing".
Quote
G5618 hosper hoce'-per
from G5613 and G4007;
just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse.
EXACTLY LIKE in adam ALL die , SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.
I think we can find that apes and monkeys do not apply to this passage, and considering that will not change the meaning. Apes and monkeys are addressed in a general way in another passage.
Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Does ALL have the context of ALL of a certain nature here? I do not believe it does.
Because it is speaking of all creation.
Ro 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 04:33:04 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says nothing of the kind concerning "losing".
Quote
G5618 hosper hoce'-per
from G5613 and G4007;
just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse.
EXACTLY LIKE in adam ALL die , SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.
The verse does not contain the words "all who are not in christ" so why then should I consider that they are?
Fair question. If you are married (I can say this because I don't know you) and you are standing there talking to your wife, and I approach you in a panic, and tell you your wife was just killed when a bus fell off a bridge into the river below and drowned, you would know I was wrong because she is right there with you engaged in conversaton with you.
But, since the news report concluded "All were killed" I assumed that meant everybody in the world, not just those in the bus, because after all, he did say "all."
No, my friend, when we are told "all will be saved in Christ" that means all who are NOT in Christ will NOT be saved.
Consider it.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says nothing of the kind concerning "losing".
Quote
G5618 hosper hoce'-per
from G5613 and G4007;
just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse.
EXACTLY LIKE in adam ALL die , SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.
I think we can find that apes and monkeys do not apply to this passage, and considering that will not change the meaning. Apes and monkeys are addressed in a general way in another passage.
Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Does ALL have the context of ALL of a certain nature here? I do not believe it does.
Because it is speaking of all creation.
Ro 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
I think that is a reach. paul "preached to the whole creation" but I think he means "all men." I don't think he preached the gospel of Christ to chipmonks and squirrels.
But back to the issue; ONLY those "IN Christ" will be saved, of all those under the new covenant.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:44:22 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 04:33:04 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says nothing of the kind concerning "losing".
Quote
G5618 hosper hoce'-per
from G5613 and G4007;
just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse.
EXACTLY LIKE in adam ALL die , SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.
The verse does not contain the words "all who are not in christ" so why then should I consider that they are?
Fair question. If you are married (I can say this because I don't know you) and you are standing there talking to your wife, and I approach you in a panic, and tell you your wife was just killed when a bus fell off a bridge into the river below and drowned, you would know I was wrong because she is right there with you engaged in conversaton with you.
But, since the news report concluded "All were killed" I assumed that meant everybody in the world, not just those in the bus, because after all, he did say "all."
No, my friend, when we are told "all will be saved in Christ" that means all who are NOT in Christ will NOT be saved.
Consider it.
I understand the analogy, but that analogy is not scripture so it does not apply to that verse. You are declaring what it means and since that verse is not worded how you are talking I have no reason to consider it. Give me a scriptural reason to reword the verse as you are doing.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:47:42 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says nothing of the kind concerning "losing".
Quote
G5618 hosper hoce'-per
from G5613 and G4007;
just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse.
EXACTLY LIKE in adam ALL die , SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.
I think we can find that apes and monkeys do not apply to this passage, and considering that will not change the meaning. Apes and monkeys are addressed in a general way in another passage.
Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Does ALL have the context of ALL of a certain nature here? I do not believe it does.
Because it is speaking of all creation.
Ro 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
I think that is a reach. paul "preached to the whole creation" but I think he means "all men." I don't think he preached the gospel of Christ to chipmonks and squirrels.
But back to the issue; ONLY those "IN Christ" will be saved, of all those under the new covenant.
This is part of the issue, you brought up monkeys and apes as an attempt to prove a verse means what you say it means, I did not.
So do you think the restitution of all things means only people as well? Please provide the scriptural support that we need to infer that "all things" somehow means "just humans".
You think this verse means just men
Ro 8:22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 05:04:46 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:44:22 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 04:33:04 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says nothing of the kind concerning "losing".
Quote
G5618 hosper hoce'-per
from G5613 and G4007;
just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse.
EXACTLY LIKE in adam ALL die , SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.
The verse does not contain the words "all who are not in christ" so why then should I consider that they are?
Fair question. If you are married (I can say this because I don't know you) and you are standing there talking to your wife, and I approach you in a panic, and tell you your wife was just killed when a bus fell off a bridge into the river below and drowned, you would know I was wrong because she is right there with you engaged in conversaton with you.
But, since the news report concluded "All were killed" I assumed that meant everybody in the world, not just those in the bus, because after all, he did say "all."
No, my friend, when we are told "all will be saved in Christ" that means all who are NOT in Christ will NOT be saved.
Consider it.
I understand the analogy, but that analogy is not scripture so it does not apply to that verse. You are declaring what it means and since that verse is not worded how you are talking I have no reason to consider it. Give me a scriptural reason to reword the verse as you are doing.
Just did.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 05:11:03 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:47:42 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 03:58:06 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
The verse says nothing of the kind concerning "losing".
Quote
G5618 hosper hoce'-per
from G5613 and G4007;
just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse.
EXACTLY LIKE in adam ALL die , SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.
Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.
I think we can find that apes and monkeys do not apply to this passage, and considering that will not change the meaning. Apes and monkeys are addressed in a general way in another passage.
Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Does ALL have the context of ALL of a certain nature here? I do not believe it does.
Because it is speaking of all creation.
Ro 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
I think that is a reach. paul "preached to the whole creation" but I think he means "all men." I don't think he preached the gospel of Christ to chipmonks and squirrels.
But back to the issue; ONLY those "IN Christ" will be saved, of all those under the new covenant.
This is part of the issue, you brought up monkeys and apes as an attempt to prove a verse means what you say it means, I did not.
So do you think the restitution of all things means only people as well? Please provide the scriptural support that we need to infer that "all things" somehow means "just humans".
You think this verse means just men
Ro 8:22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
And women.
man.
The whole creation does not "expect" anything. Man does. The whole creation could care less about "sons ofGod." Man cares.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
The whole creation is not vain. Man is vain. And only man has hope. The horse certainly does not say "I Hope that dumb farmer hasn't forgotten the oats again."
Reason and will are not about the whole creation, they are about man.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
And the whole creation will not be delivered into liberty as children of God. Man will.
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 09:21:02 PM
The whole creation does not "expect" anything.
You are unable to make that determination in the absolute sense. Just because you cannot communicate with a rock does not mean it is not alive in some sense.
Even the most dense object known to man is comprised of moving particles. We as humans have been given a different existance and are gifted to have the responsibility to take care of creation. Taking care of things means that they have a certain value.
Under certain circumstances scripture says that the rocks cry out. If you think that everything interacts with God the same then you will not see this possibility.
The word creation from the ancient greek is not specific enough to mankind to assert it must only apply to humans.
QuoteG2937 ktisis ktis'-is
from G2936;
original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or
figuratively):--building, creation, creature, ordinance.
QuoteThe horse certainly does not say "I Hope that dumb farmer hasn't forgotten the oats again."
I do not believe the horse would express being hungry in that way and I have not said it would. but to say a living creature or creation has no way in the absolute sense to goan over imperfection denies that scripture says ALL THINGS will be restored not specifically referencing just human beings.
I have no reason to define scriptural words to refer to less things when the wording does not dictate that at all.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 21, 2010, 11:50:36 PM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 09:21:02 PM
The whole creation does not "expect" anything.
You are unable to make that determination in the absolute sense. Just because you cannot communicate with a rock does not mean it is not alive in some sense.
Even the most dense object known to man is comprised of moving particles. We as humans have been given a different existance and are gifted to have the responsibility to take care of creation. Taking care of things means that they have a certain value.
Under certain circumstances scripture says that the rocks cry out. If you think that everything interacts with God the same then you will not see this possibility.
The word creation from the ancient greek is not specific enough to mankind to assert it must only apply to humans.
QuoteG2937 ktisis ktis'-is
from G2936;
original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or
figuratively):--building, creation, creature, ordinance.
QuoteThe horse certainly does not say "I Hope that dumb farmer hasn't forgotten the oats again."
I do not believe the horse would express being hungry in that way and I have not said it would. but to say a living creature or creation has no way in the absolute sense to goan over imperfection denies that scripture says ALL THINGS will be restored not specifically referencing just human beings.
I have no reason to define scriptural words to refer to less things when the wording does not dictate that at all.
I see no scripture that says "God is NOT a spider" but I do not believe God is a spider. I do not bleieve God is a tree, in whose image the mighty Oak was made.
I do know God said of his creation, I command all MEN everywhere, to repent." He did not say this, at least in the book address to men, of trees, and rocks, and spiders, and horses.
Beyond that, I do not know.
Quote
I see no scripture that says "God is NOT a spider" but I do not believe God is a spider. I do not bleieve God is a tree, in whose image the mighty Oak was made.
Sure, but the spider is creation,. so are you and everything that exists. I have not argued what God is or isn't, but that the definitions of words do not cause me to determine that "creation" means "just humans". That is my main point, not so much as an argument, but to point out why I do not see things the same way you do.
Quote
I do know God said of his creation, I command all MEN everywhere, to repent." He did not say this, at least in the book address to men, of trees, and rocks, and spiders, and horses.
I have not raised the issue that trees, rocks, need to repent. The resitution of all things has more implications than just the idea of repentance. To me there is more to creation and life interacting with the almighty than just humans.
Quote
Beyond that, I do not know.
fair enough
Thought I would give my :2c: on this subject of God reconciling all things.
(Col. 1:16&20) For by him were all things created,.. {I assume that means all things including the bugs}.. that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,.. {doesn't leave anything out}..whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, ALL things were created by him, and for him.
(Verse 20) And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to RECONCILE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
These two verses tell me that ALL THINGS big, small, no matter where they are, will be reconcilled, saved. If all things were made for him why would he destroy any of it?
(Isaiah chapter 11) Talks about the cow and the bear feeding together, a child shall play on the hole of the asp and a weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
(Verse 9) "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea".
Even animals are agressive and kill so why wouldn't God reconcile them also?
(Verse 11) "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand AGAIN THE SECOND TIME to recover the remnant of his people".
(John 6:45) "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father cometh unto me". This says All will be taught and EVERY MAN that hears will come to me. A good UR verse.
From these verses it sounds like when Christ is in the earth that animals will still be here. I cannot say what will exist after all is in all but from what I understand all of God's creation will exist even after Christ returns to earth. IF all things were created for him I can't imagine him destroying any of his creation.
CHB
Quote from: Theo Book on March 21, 2010, 11:03:41 AM
Quote from: willieH on March 21, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on March 20, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.
This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning: Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
KJV1Co 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
The way I read it Theo.
Statement #1: 100% died in Adam.
Statement #2: 100% shall (eventually) be made alive in Christ.
Statement #3: The making alive is in groups (progressive perhaps)
Statement #4: A list showing the order of the groups. Christ, firstfruits, those in Christ at His coming
If the total of statement #4 isn't 100% then that group comes later.
KJVRev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the
first resurrection:
That's one group. A first group means there is at least also a second group.
KJVRev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
And that's the group that wasn't included in statement #4
:2c:
Quote from: CHB on March 22, 2010, 07:42:38 PM
Thought I would give my :2c: on this subject of God reconciling all things.
(Col. 1:16&20) For by him were all things created,.. {I assume that means all things including the bugs}.. that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,.. {doesn't leave anything out}..whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, ALL things were created by him, and for him.
Well my friend, look again at your prooftext to see what it really says. EVERYONE overlooks the key word that serves as a limiting parameter in this passage.
Col 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
This is speaking of the new creation, not the original, because God alone created heaven and earth, Jesus was not there.
Look at two things, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens MONOS [alone]; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
That word "monos" is translated "alone." Look at what Jesus says when incorporating this word in describing his relationship with his Father..."Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me monos [alone]: and yet I am ouk monos [not alone], because the Father is with me." [John 16:32] Jesus said that when he and the Father are together, they are "ouk monos;" God said he MONOS [alone] created all things. The creation in which Jesus took part is the NEW CREATION, not the original.
Look at the language used when Holy Spirit discusses the new creation;
2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are gegonen [become] new."
And look at the words used in John 1:3 "All things through it ginomai [became]; and without it ginomai [became] not one thing that ginomai [has become].[Grk interlinear.][For "it" instead of "him" see the first several English translations in history;
TYNDALE BIBLE (1525)
John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and the worde was god.
2 The same was in the beginnynge with god.
3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothinge that was made.
GREAT BIBLE (1539)
1 In the begynnyng was the worde, and the worde was wyth God: and God was the worde. 2 The same was in the begynnyng wyth God. 3 All things were made by it, and wythout it, was made nothyng that was made.
GENEVA BIBLE (1560)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the worde, and the worde was with God, and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothing that was made.
BISHOP'S BIBLE (1568)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and God was that word. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothing that was made.
The first English translation to use "him" in place of "it" was the Catholic Duay Rheims:
RHEIMS BIBLE (1582)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and God was the word. 2 This was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was made nothing. That which was made
And the King James followed the Rheims.
KING JAMES BIBLE (1611)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
As for "ginomai" meaning created, it is never so translated in the new testament, but is used as in Luke 23:12 "And the same day Pilate and Herod ginomai [were made] friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves."
It is the new creation under consideration in col 1:16, and in John 1:3.
Now, back to Col 1:16, "whether they be" is a limiting parameter telling us which specific "all things" are under consideration. "Whether they be" thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers. NOTHING else is under consideration in this passage. When Jesus preached his very famous sermon on the mount, as recorded in Mat chapters 5 through 7, he was laying the foundation for the new earth, "a new and living way." When he entered heaven, at his ascension, all thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers had to move down one position to accomodate his new position in heaven, it constituted a "new heaven." "In Christ All things have become new."
Quote
(Isaiah chapter 11) Talks about the cow and the bear feeding together, a child shall play on the hole of the asp and a weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
(Verse 9) "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea".
Even animals are agressive and kill so why wouldn't God reconcile them also?
Because they are not made in his image. [Ecc 3:21] "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"
I do not know answers, only questions, including my own beliefs. I continually read and study to comprehend all that God has revealed, and try to compensate between sometimes seemingly competing concepts. I am not set in stone as to my core believfs, but to change them I need more thn sound bites that I like to hear. And I do like what I am seeing on this board. I just do not change in the blink of an eye. It is too important to me.
Hi Theo,
I think this new creation you are talking about is us becoming a new creature, that is the old man being changed to a new person.
This Word..{Jesus Christ}..you are referring to was WITH God in the beginning of the creation of the world (John 1:2) The same was in the beginning WITH God.
(John 1:3) speaking of the Word,..{Jesus Christ}..says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". This verse ties in with (Col. 1:16) & (Psalms 33:6) "By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth". (Heb. 11:3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed BY THE WORD of God. (1Peter 3:5) For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the WORD of God the heavens were of OLD.
(1John 1:1-2) That which was from the BEGINNING, which we have heard, WHICH WE HAVE SEEN WITH OUR OWN EYES, which we HAVE LOOKED UPON, and our hands have handled, of the WORD OF LIFE.
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto yopu that eternal life, which was WITH THE FATHER, and was manifested unto us;).
Jesus was this WORD, that I see as being the creator of ALL THINGS.
You said that in Colossians it was only talking about thrones, powers, dominions, principalities. I see it as saying he created ALL THINGS, including the powers of heaven and earth.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 23, 2010, 05:19:18 PM
Hi Theo,
I think this new creation you are talking about is us becoming a new creature, that is the old man being changed to a new person.
This Word..{Jesus Christ}..you are referring to was WITH God in the beginning of the creation of the world (John 1:2) The same was in the beginning WITH God.
(John 1:3) speaking of the Word,..{Jesus Christ}..says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". This verse ties in with (Col. 1:16) & (Psalms 33:6) "By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth". (Heb. 11:3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed BY THE WORD of God. (1Peter 3:5) For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the WORD of God the heavens were of OLD.
(1John 1:1-2) That which was from the BEGINNING, which we have heard, WHICH WE HAVE SEEN WITH OUR OWN EYES, which we HAVE LOOKED UPON, and our hands have handled, of the WORD OF LIFE.
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto yopu that eternal life, which was WITH THE FATHER, and was manifested unto us;).
Jesus was this WORD, that I see as being the creator of ALL THINGS.
You said that in Colossians it was only talking about thrones, powers, dominions, principalities. I see it as saying he created ALL THINGS, including the powers of heaven and earth.
CHB
John certainly had the vocabulary and the Holy Spirit inspiration necessary to say he was referencing the beginning of creation, if that was indeed the "beginning" he was talking aobut.
The Holy spirit inspired New Testament writers to reference the "beginning of creation" when it was applicable.
Mark 10:6 But from the [arxees ktisews] beginning of the creation God [epoieesen] made them male and female.
Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the [arxees ktisews] beginning of the creation which God [ektisen] created unto this time, neither shall be.
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the [arxees ktisews] beginning of the creation.
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the [ee arxee tees ktisews tou theou] beginning of the creation of God;
Mark, Peter, and yes, even John had already had experience referencing the "beginning of creation." They already knew from prior authorship and from inspiration, how to express "arxees ktisews" if the beginning of creation is what they want to express.
But John made two changes when he wrote his gospel.
1). He wrote [en arxee] and left off [ktisews] which he had previously expressed, because he now has a different [arxee] in mind.
It is the same [arxee] he references in John 15:27 "And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from (the) [arxees] beginning."
It is the same [arxee] he references in John 16:4 "But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at (the) [arxees] beginning, because I was with you."
John is here recording Jesus own testimony. Do you really think Jesus doesn't know how to reference "arxees ktisews?" Or do you really think John is not being inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what he means to express?
2) Remember back up the page, in Mark 10:6, the reference to "made?" He "made them male and female." "Made" in that reference is [epoieesen].
Compare it with John 1:3 and you will see it is not the same meaning. John 1:3 records "All things were [egeneto] made by him; and without him was not any thing [egeneto] made that was [gegonen] made.
Egeneto and gegonen both derive from ginomai, which means to become, as in "Herod and Pilate were made friends, for they had been at enmity before that day."
John is not saying the same thing in 1:1-3 that he expresses elsewhere in his writings, and that Mark and Mathew expresses in their writings and he knows the difference.
1Jn 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
What does scripture teach you about... What was from the beginning?
We need to compare both John 1:1 with 1 John 1:1
John 1:1 – "In the beginning was the Word." 1 John 1:1 – "What was from the beginning, what we have heard."
Notice that in John what is from the beginning is the word, and in 1 John what is from the beginning is something that they heard (a message) .
Look closely...
1 John 2:7 – "Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard."
In 1 John 1:1 what was from the beginning is something that they heard, here in 1 John 2:7 the old commandment is what they have had from the beginning, (sound familiar?) and the old commandment is the "WORD" that they what? Heard! The same as in 1 John 1:1.
So, What commandment is John speaking about?
John is speaking about what Jesus called the greatest commandment, ( Mark 12:29-30 ) the commandment of love which God gave the Hebrews from the beginning. The message of love that the proclamation of the Kingdom of God brings with it.
How do we know for sure that this is the message and/or the commandment that they heard from the beginning? Because John tells you so in 1 John 3:11 and 1 John 3:23:
"For this is the message you have HEARD from the BEGINNING: we should love one another."
"And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another."
Loving one another is how the world will know that we are followers of God's Christ.
John 13:30 – "This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
According to Paul (Romans 13:9), the law of love is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law and it is the Law in the coming Kingdom of God which the Messiah has come to proclaim.
John is both in John 1 and 1john1 talking about a message heard from the beginning, not the beginning of time.
Paul
Amen and Amen, Paul.