Anyone read Don Piper's "90 mins in heaven"?

[IceDash]

I read this book three time and I checked, it a true story, there nothing fake about it.

It's mean there is hell because some of his family in heaven is christian, so if you are not christian, bye-bye.

[jabcat]

Was Adam's fall more effective than Jesus' death and resurrection?

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/adam_succeeded_will_christ.pdf

[IceDash]

but did you read his story lately?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I read this book three time and I checked, it a true story, there nothing fake about it.

It's mean there is hell because some of his family in heaven is christian, so if you are not christian, bye-bye.

There may be a hell, but is it eternal, do you go bye bye "forever"?     

I've been down that road, the road contradicts biblical promises.   No offense, I am generalizing.

There is an increasing number of members joining that constantly post things about hell.  Nothing inherantly wrong with that, so that isn't my point here.  My point is that I sense the anxiety, I sense the fear and no matter what argument you can find out there on the internet and what book or video you can read that says there is a hell that lasts forever, it contradicts a very significant biblical instruction.

Even if you want to say that you find more information about an eternal hell than you do for Gods ultimate plan of restoration, it still contradicts.

What does it contradict?  It contradicts the instruction to not worry about anything.

Why do you need to worry about an eternal hell if the bible says to not worry about anything?   You can talk about Gods judgment, punishment, wrath, all day long, you can bring all the arguments you like, post all the links, talk about this guy and that guy, bring it on.

I'll not worry about it because God says do not worry about anything. 

[jabcat]

yes, i read it, i own the book.  i was responding to your statement about hell...i don't see his story as proving there's a hell...or absolutely that heaven is exactly as he describes, for that matter...i think we need to base our beliefs on spirit revealed scripture, not various people's many stories...some of which may be true, others not so much...scripture says no one has ascended there except for Jesus...

John 3:13 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven"

God's blessing, James.

[sven]

if there are so many people in heaven yet, why not David?

For David is not ascended into the heavens... Acts 2,34

i would't take this extra biblical stuff to serious

collosians 2,8

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[Andromeda_Organa]

I read this book three time and I checked, it a true story, there nothing fake about it.

It's mean there is hell because some of his family in heaven is christian, so if you are not christian, bye-bye.

Huh? Please explain the second sentence

[jabcat]

Fire, seems you've got a very good point wrt that scripture, but if we add this to it, seems it wraps it up/ties it all together for me...John 3:13 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven".  My  :2c:.

[ScarletWren]

I agree Jabcat.  Didn't Paul say that none of those that went before would be perfected before them?  I don't see the allusion about David's body and Christ's body.  There is much significance to Jesus' body no longer being in the tomb. Paul said that if Christ were not RAISED we were still in our sins.  What was raised?  He appeared in a body, BEFORE he ascended to the Father.  When he talked to Mary.  I totally don't think we are alive in ANY way after our physical death UNTIL the resurrection that we are raised in.  But it will SEEM like the next instant to us.

I did once believe and it was a strong hope, that we were spiritually in God's presence immediatley upon death, but now it seems too many problems are connected with that.  Our spirits return to God, but I believe that is speaking about the force from God that gives us breath.  God breathed into ADAM and he BECAME a living soul.  That seems opposite to saying that God put a soul into Adam's body.  I don't believe in pre-existence (other than Christ), or that our spirits float around in some heavenly realm.  Christ is the pattern son and no one else has attained that level.  My opinion.

[rosered]

  what Comes down is  Christ Body [ the True Church ] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.


Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

[ScarletWren]

I absolutely agree, Rose,  I can't say that I wasn't disappointed at first when I realized that Christ would reign through a body of sons, but that doesn't negate the fact that He appeared in a body to His disciples and His body was missing from the tomb.  Also, his sons will have a body after the fashion that was his.  

Is the physical to be completely gone, disappeared?  I am seeing more spiritual explanations than I used to.  But I think those who love delving into the spiritual forget that there are many leayers to scripture.  If we're just going to be melded into the mind of Christ, God, with no retention of us as individuals, what is the difference from hinduism (I think?) that says our goal is nirvana, absolute union with the universe?  God created the universe, it is physical.  I don't think it's going to disappear and I think we will have some aspect of a physical presence with which to enjoy it.

I do believe that Jesus Christ retains some physical aspect also.  What that aspect is in Him and us, I can't begin to appreciate, but I don't see a total elimination of physical things.

I guess that's where I get frustrated when folk on here keep telling some of us to think spiritually.  I see a perfect blending of the two, why was this vast universe necessary if we were only going to fill a small portion of it for a very infintesimal period of 'time'?

No matter what, I don't believe we will live in all realms as God can.  Time is necessary, otherwise you're just in some nirvana, I don't even want to not look forward to a time when I will visit with one person and then another.  How can you even describe moving without relating to time?  Physical and time go together.  I guess when and if God reveals to me how we can get along without time and some sort of physical capability, I will GET it.  Now, I sort of skim over the stuff  you guys post that goes too far out of my zone.

However, I do love y'all.

[Chris]

Fire, seems you've got a very good point wrt that scripture, but if we add this to it, seems it wraps it up/ties it all together for me...John 3:13 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven".  My  :2c:.

hey jabcat,

It's not "man" that ascends/descends. It's "the angels of God".  :thumbsup:

[Chris]

Fire, seems you've got a very good point wrt that scripture, but if we add this to it, seems it wraps it up/ties it all together for me...John 3:13 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven".  My  :2c:.

But how do you believe that contradicts? Thats what I dont understand, He that descended FIRST ascendeth and is He who fills all things and seated us with Christ in heavenly places. Does that mean we "ascendeth AS A MAN"?  :grin: Not at all, I know of no other who ascended AS A MAN whose FLESH saw no corruption, to me it proves who He was. Its Children OF the ressurection (of which HE is) aren't they like the angels who can no longer die.

Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, **Hereafter** ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Martha goes on about the ressurection at the last day and He had to point out that HE (Himself IS **THE** Resurrection) and HE is never PAST because He always IS. Knowing the POWER of **HIS** is the power of THE FIRST resurrection we (as Paul desire to know).

I dont look at it as dead bodies but that WE being DEAD already have **NO LIFE** in us with Him and that His life is to be MANIFESTED IN our MORTAL BODY, that death (this body OF it) is swallowed up IN LIFE (His) that we reign in life through Him. The hope is in seeing Him as He is and thats not "out of" this world but IN this world and reigning in life through Him in the "To day". Paul said when this tabernacle is dissolved WE HAVE a building as even God gives a body and its eternal in the heavens.

When Moses died his natural force was not abated nor his eye dim, what do they use to explain that away?  :grin:

LOL Didn't see that you already got to that.... I'm headed out the door to go home, so I will add some more when I get home. GREAT POSTS!!!  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

Fire, seems you've got a very good point wrt that scripture, but if we add this to it, seems it wraps it up/ties it all together for me...John 3:13 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven".  My  :2c:.

hey jabcat,

It's not "man" that ascends/descends. It's "the angels of God".  :thumbsup:

it that not what the Bride is in White ?Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.


Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
   as I see it the   marrige supper of the Lamb  , is where the  angels of God  sons of God  are   acending and descending 
  they are   seated  with Christ in heavenly places 
or cast out , Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.


Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.


Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:


Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.


Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.


   I sure could be all wrong here  though   :mblush:
I just wonder if the ascending and descending is about
   being  lifted up and than cast down angels /  messengers of God , it is the  tongue mouth /speech and  deeds or the lack there of  .
   there is alot of scriptures about this  very thing in the gospels  Paul was concerned for  this  being a castaway

Jhn 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
  strong's G2597 - katabainō καταβαίνω
descending

Part of Speech  verb

from G2596 and the base of G939


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to go down, come down, descend

a) the place from which one has come down from

b) to come down

1) as from the temple at Jerusalem, from the city of Jerusalem

2) of celestial beings coming down to earth

c) to be cast down

2) of things

a) to come (i.e. be sent) down

b) to come (i.e. fall) down

1) from the upper regions of the air

3) metaph. to (go i.e.) be cast down to the lowest state of wretchedness and shame

ascending  gr  305  anabainō
verb

from G303 and the base of G939

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) ascend

a) to go up
b) to rise, mount, be borne up, spring up

  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Fire, I'm not saying it's a contradiction, I see it as all going together...what I'm getting at is, I don't believe David, or anyone else has yet gone to heaven, except Jesus, Who came and then went back...and Rosie, IMO, that's what John 3:13 is saying...it's talking about Jesus...and to me, the following verses bare that out...13and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven. 14`And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, and then we know what 16 says...God, Son..

He's the only one that's gone to heaven...after He had come down here... That's what I understand...am I missing something?  Wouldn't be the first time :laughing7:. 

Just thought of this, so adding it...maybe there's another "dimension" (for lack of a better word) in which the "great cloud of witnesses" reside...but still not exactly where Jesus is, since according to scripture, He's the only one that's gone there  :dontknow:.

[jabcat]

You know, Fire, I don't take a real hard stand on that (or many things, for that matter).  There are things I believe and understand certain ways, but there's still so much to learn, and so many times I've been wrong, that I try to be careful what I get dogmatic on...limit my battles to just a few very basic things, you know? 

Soul sleep?  I wouldn't even use that term for what I believe right now.  I think there's scripture that indicates the dead know nothing, but also the scripture to which I alluded about the great cloud of witnesses...If that's people, then I'd have to say that right now I don't believe they are in what we call heaven, if nothing else, based on John 3:13...also, just the idea of I don't think people are either in heaven or corrective punishment ("hell") prior to the judgment...then people would be coming back from heaven and "hell" (without having been judged), getting judged, and then going back to where they already were  :mshock:.  I guess I believe in more of a holding/waiting state/location....perhaps where Jesus meant by "today, you will be with me in paradise"...don't some, including Jews believe paradise to be a "holding tank" of sorts?

So, just too many things yet to learn to argue too much about very many things  :thumbsup:.

[jabcat]

Amen!  :thumbsup:.

[Chris]

Fire, I'm not saying it's a contradiction, I see it as all going together...what I'm getting at is, I don't believe David, or anyone else has yet gone to heaven, except Jesus, Who came and then went back...and Rosie, IMO, that's what John 3:13 is saying...it's talking about Jesus...and to me, the following verses bare that out...13and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven. 14`And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, and then we know what 16 says...God, Son..

He's the only one that's gone to heaven...after He had come down here... That's what I understand...am I missing something?  Wouldn't be the first time :laughing7:. 

Just thought of this, so adding it...maybe there's another "dimension" (for lack of a better word) in which the "great cloud of witnesses" reside...but still not exactly where Jesus is, since according to scripture, He's the only one that's gone there  :dontknow:.

Hey Jabcat,

Not sure how much I can say right now cuz I'm at work and can't really be on the forum from here and I can't get online at home right now. But I used to believe just as you do and was totally convinced of it, too. (And I mean CONVINCED, just ask Fire.  :grin:)

Then other things started to gain my attention that ultimately made me reconsider.

When it says that "no man" (other that Christ) hath ascended, that is true, but it is not "man" who asceneded/descends. This I already mentioned, but did not show the connections to who "the angels of God" are, as they are indeed "men" as it relates to those who have been born of the spirit and are "the sons of God", even "the angels of God", as Paul himself was accepted and as we see in the book of Revelation when it speaks of "the angels of the churches" and even "the angels" who are doing the will of God, even executing judgment (which honor has been given unto the saints).

David DID NOT (not "is not") ascend, and as others have said I believe that this pertains to his body and the fact that "his" grave was NOT EMPTY. "he" was not the one of whom he prophesied. 

I believe that Christ's "bodily" resurrection was to PROVE "the resurrection of the dead" not to indicate to us that one day rotting flesh will begin to pop out of graves/tombs. God GIVES it a body (a sprititual body) as it pleases Him. And we know that if this earthly tabernacle (natural body) were dissolved that WE HAVE "an house not made with hands eternal in the heavens (a spiritual body).

Anyway, there is lots more to it, but I can't stay online from here. I don't even have my e-sword on my work pc anymore (so didn't quote scriptures, here.  :mshock:). But I do hope to get my internet connection issue resolved soon. And maybe I can add more to this topic later.  :happygrin:

Chrissie

[sven]

I totally don't think we are alive in ANY way after our physical death UNTIL the resurrection that we are raised in.

this is what i am 100% convinced of what the bible says, but there so many "new revelations" that you might get doubts

[jabcat]

Fire, I'm not saying it's a contradiction, I see it as all going together...what I'm getting at is, I don't believe David, or anyone else has yet gone to heaven, except Jesus, Who came and then went back...and Rosie, IMO, that's what John 3:13 is saying...it's talking about Jesus...and to me, the following verses bare that out...13and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven. 14`And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, and then we know what 16 says...God, Son..

He's the only one that's gone to heaven...after He had come down here... That's what I understand...am I missing something?  Wouldn't be the first time :laughing7:. 

Just thought of this, so adding it...maybe there's another "dimension" (for lack of a better word) in which the "great cloud of witnesses" reside...but still not exactly where Jesus is, since according to scripture, He's the only one that's gone there  :dontknow:.

Hey Jabcat,

Not sure how much I can say right now cuz I'm at work and can't really be on the forum from here and I can't get online at home right now. But I used to believe just as you do and was totally convinced of it, too. (And I mean CONVINCED, just ask Fire.  :grin:)

Then other things started to gain my attention that ultimately made me reconsider.

When it says that "no man" (other that Christ) hath ascended, that is true, but it is not "man" who asceneded/descends. This I already mentioned, but did not show the connections to who "the angels of God" are, as they are indeed "men" as it relates to those who have been born of the spirit and are "the sons of God", even "the angels of God", as Paul himself was accepted and as we see in the book of Revelation when it speaks of "the angels of the churches" and even "the angels" who are doing the will of God, even executing judgment (which honor has been given unto the saints).

David DID NOT (not "is not") ascend, and as others have said I believe that this pertains to his body and the fact that "his" grave was NOT EMPTY. "he" was not the one of whom he prophesied. 

I believe that Christ's "bodily" resurrection was to PROVE "the resurrection of the dead" not to indicate to us that one day rotting flesh will begin to pop out of graves/tombs. God GIVES it a body (a sprititual body) as it pleases Him. And we know that if this earthly tabernacle (natural body) were dissolved that WE HAVE "an house not made with hands eternal in the heavens (a spiritual body).

Anyway, there is lots more to it, but I can't stay online from here. I don't even have my e-sword on my work pc anymore (so didn't quote scriptures, here.  :mshock:). But I do hope to get my internet connection issue resolved soon. And maybe I can add more to this topic later.  :happygrin:

Chrissie

Chris, when you get time, tell me what you think I believe...maybe it will clarify it for me  :laughing7:.  Then, tell me what you believe that's different or the same.  As I've said, I don't believe I have all the answers to all the hows and possibilities, I just don't think folks are floating around in heaven yet...maybe somewhere else, maybe not "soul sleep", but I believe Jesus is the only one that's been to "heaven", based on what I noted before.  Also, another thought...no man has seen God.  Now, I understand, there may be some issues with the term 'man', so there's more of that discussion.  Anyway, if there are people in heaven, hasn't the judgment already occurred?  And I'm actually not opposed to that being a possibility...maybe there is a judgment right after death...that's just not what I understand right now.  Maybe tomorrow  :dontknow: :laughing7:.

[jabcat]

Also, regarding "spiritualizing"...personally, I think there's a definite place for it.  As long as it doesn't get so "spiritualized" that we've wandered away from what the scripture is actually saying, i.e., the scriptures in John, IMO, are obviously talking about Jesus.  Now, there may be other applications and connections to make spiritually, as long as we don't get so far away from the primary intent of the scripture that we lose its basic message as well.  My  :2c:. 

[Chris]

Fire, I'm not saying it's a contradiction, I see it as all going together...what I'm getting at is, I don't believe David, or anyone else has yet gone to heaven, except Jesus, Who came and then went back...and Rosie, IMO, that's what John 3:13 is saying...it's talking about Jesus...and to me, the following verses bare that out...13and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven. 14`And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, and then we know what 16 says...God, Son..

He's the only one that's gone to heaven...after He had come down here... That's what I understand...am I missing something?  Wouldn't be the first time :laughing7:. 

Just thought of this, so adding it...maybe there's another "dimension" (for lack of a better word) in which the "great cloud of witnesses" reside...but still not exactly where Jesus is, since according to scripture, He's the only one that's gone there  :dontknow:.

Hey Jabcat,

Not sure how much I can say right now cuz I'm at work and can't really be on the forum from here and I can't get online at home right now. But I used to believe just as you do and was totally convinced of it, too. (And I mean CONVINCED, just ask Fire.  :grin:)

Then other things started to gain my attention that ultimately made me reconsider.

When it says that "no man" (other that Christ) hath ascended, that is true, but it is not "man" who asceneded/descends. This I already mentioned, but did not show the connections to who "the angels of God" are, as they are indeed "men" as it relates to those who have been born of the spirit and are "the sons of God", even "the angels of God", as Paul himself was accepted and as we see in the book of Revelation when it speaks of "the angels of the churches" and even "the angels" who are doing the will of God, even executing judgment (which honor has been given unto the saints).

David DID NOT (not "is not") ascend, and as others have said I believe that this pertains to his body and the fact that "his" grave was NOT EMPTY. "he" was not the one of whom he prophesied. 

I believe that Christ's "bodily" resurrection was to PROVE "the resurrection of the dead" not to indicate to us that one day rotting flesh will begin to pop out of graves/tombs. God GIVES it a body (a sprititual body) as it pleases Him. And we know that if this earthly tabernacle (natural body) were dissolved that WE HAVE "an house not made with hands eternal in the heavens (a spiritual body).

Anyway, there is lots more to it, but I can't stay online from here. I don't even have my e-sword on my work pc anymore (so didn't quote scriptures, here.  :mshock:). But I do hope to get my internet connection issue resolved soon. And maybe I can add more to this topic later.  :happygrin:

Chrissie

Chris, when you get time, tell me what you think I believe...maybe it will clarify it for me  :laughing7:.  Then, tell me what you believe that's different or the same.  As I've said, I don't believe I have all the answers to all the hows and possibilities, I just don't think folks are floating around in heaven yet...maybe somewhere else, maybe not "soul sleep", but I believe Jesus is the only one that's been to "heaven", based on what I noted before.  Also, another thought...no man has seen God.  Now, I understand, there may be some issues with the term 'man', so there's more of that discussion.  Anyway, if there are people in heaven, hasn't the judgment already occurred?  And I'm actually not opposed to that being a possibility...maybe there is a judgment right after death...that's just not what I understand right now.  Maybe tomorrow  :dontknow: :laughing7:.

Hello Jabcat,

I don't believe that I was trying to tell you what you believe, so I am sorry if you got that impression. I was, however, addressing the belief that Jesus is the only one that's been to heaven, as you are stating here again that you believe. This is certainly connected to the belief in "soul sleep" that is also being discussed here. I was not inferring that "you" believe it by addressing it and the reasons why I do not believe in it anymore. Again, if I gave you the wrong impression then I apologize. I am already aware (as you said so even before) that these things are not ground in stone for you. So, once again, if you thought the inference was that I thought they were, I am sorry. That is not at all the case. I was simply trying to address the topic, not just you personally, even though my post was addressed to you because it was partly in response to your post. I will certainly try to be more careful about doing that in the future.

Chris

[jabcat]

Chris!  It's OK...not to worry...as I said, it would probably help clarify it for me, as well as I'd learn something from you summarizing what you're hearing me say as well as then add your own thoughts...I think it's a very complicated topic, with strong believers on either side, and me somewhere in the middle...please, share your thoughts...my apologies if you are wounded...share away  :thumbsup:!