Answer this one, you heretic smarty pants’

[MacPherson]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

WELL?!!!!

[Paul Hazelwood]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

WELL?!!!!

What do you think the word condemned means here?

[MacPherson]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

WELL?!!!!

What do you think the word condemned means here?

Initially: Pronounced or proved guilty; "The condemned man faced the firing squad."

After reading Fireinfolding's answer:
Officially and strongly disapproved; "Condemned his behavior."

I knew this was a bogus question, so to speak. It's my initial knee jerk interpretation, that's the problem. More ingrained conditioning than I'd like to believe or admit to? Scary.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

WELL?!!!!

What do you think the word condemned means here?

Initially: Pronounced or proved guilty; "The condemned man faced the firing squad."

After reading Fireinfolding's answer:
Officially and strongly disapproved; "Condemned his behavior."

I knew this was a bogus question, so to speak. It's my initial knee jerk interpretation, that's the problem. More ingrained conditioning than I'd like to believe or admit to? Scary.

I understand.

The religious bias is that bringing up this verse is evidence for an eternal hell because thats what the vast majority of Christianity teaches a word like that "means".

Even though we can see that there is nothing in the defintion of condemned anywhere that says "doomed to eternal torment etc"

While a debate can rage on just what we are condemned to,  the word condemned in and of itself does not disprove universalism, only that the aspect of judgment for punishment exists in the bible.

[Andromeda_Organa]

this thread is confusing me.

[Paul Hazelwood]

LOL,

Sorry for the confusion,  Macpherson posts things playing devils advocate a bit so I was humoring him.

Basically the verse macpherson posted is used to say that God will not save all,  but the verse is not used by presenting it in the context of the proper definition of condemned.

Hope that helps   :happy3:

[reFORMer]

Jesus had just told them to go into all, not some, but all the world and preach the good news to every creature, not just certain chosen ones.  If some of those creatures were known beforehand by God to be going to an endless hell that "good" news would be a lie and God would be responsible for making us liars.  The text continues about how those who believe will be saved, that is, brought to a state of complete well-being, spirit, soul and body.  He also says who doesn't believe will be condemned.  That word condemned is made of two words, kata-krino, in Greek.  "Judgment" is to put things right.  In Mk 16:16 it is with kata meaning:  "down" -judgment.  So whoever doesn't believe is "put down to be put right."

An example of condemnation is when the ancient nation of Israel persisted refusing God's dealings for them to leave all other gods and be wed only to Himself.  So, they were condemned to go into captivity to Babylon.  After 70 years only 1 out of 7 priests were not assimilated, but returned to rebuild the house of God.  The nation never went back to serve idols.  That is what God's condemning work accomplished.  What condemnation means is:  "put down to be put right."

About this terrible reality in God, when comparing Adam and Jesus, He has elsewhere said, "...as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also, it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.  For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Rm 5:18-19, CLV)

Sometimes the judgement is in our favor.  So, those who walk uprightly may say with David:  "Judge me, O LORD..." (Ps 7:9, 26:1, 35:24, 43:1)  "Save me, O God, by thy name, and judge me by thy strength." (Ps 54:1)  How good it is that God is the judge of the fatherless and the widow! (Ps 10:18, 68:5)  Indeed, "He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor." (Ps 72:4)

The immature have a joyous expectation in the discipline they endure:  "Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.  The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way." (Ps 25:8-9)

[MacPherson]

LOL,

Sorry for the confusion,  Macpherson posts things playing devils advocate a bit so I was humoring him.

Basically the verse macpherson posted is used to say that God will not save all,  but the verse is not used by presenting it in the context of the proper definition of condemned.

Hope that helps   :happy3:

It seems like the sort of thing someone would use to dispel UR. As in there it is pointblank and irrefutable. Either saved or condemned. End of story.

[MacPherson]

this thread is confusing me.

That's because I'm acting as a fundamentalist.

[jabcat]

this thread is confusing me.

That's because I'm acting as a fundamentalist.

Andro---mainstream uses verses such as this to make the case for ET, without being able to look past the surface and explore the real meanings and the big picture.  For instance, they'll say "condemned" then automatically means "in hell for an eternity", when that's not what the verse actually says.  Also a biggie is "it's appointed unto man once to die, after that the judgment"...then they automatically add "and judgment is eternal hell", when again, that's not what the verse says.  Another part of our problem, IMO, is many/most of us have been taught to also think that way, so we can tend to automatically do the same thing, which is add to what's actually said/meant, from our preconceived notions.  That's why it's good to point out these type of things, so we can see and understand things more clearly minus the automatic, inaccurate reactions.  I know, because I still have that first knee-jerk reaction too, but I hope it keeps getting better  :thumbsup:.  God's blessing, James.

[sven]

condemned to (second) death which i believe is literal death (the wages of sin is death), death is the last enemy do be abolished, no contradiction to UR

[legoman]

Consider this verse:

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.


Hmm.  Was there a point in your life when you did not believe in God?  Then at that point in your life you were already "condemned"!  However if you believe now, then you are not condemned anymore, even though you were condemned.

As you can see, being "condemned" is a condition that can be rectified by acknowledging and believing Jesus.


Good thing everyone will acknowledge and confess Jesus eventually:

Romans 14:11 It is written:
   " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
   'every knee will bow before me;
   every tongue will confess to God.'

Clearly if one is bowing down and confessing Jesus is Lord, they believe in him.  Therefore all will eventually believe and be saved.  QED :happy3:

Cheers,
Legoman

[Texas Son]

In Acts Chapter 2, Peter gives his first sermon after receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. After his sermon there were those who were "pierced to the heart and said to Peter...'Brethren what shall we do?'"

Peter tells them they must "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Although we know that through Christ's death we have already be reconciled to God, (Romans 5:10) until we are baptized in Him, we have not been raised up with Him through His resurrection.

Colossians 2:13 "And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions"

The uncircumcised flesh is condemned. The person condemned has not been "made alive together with Him..." as long as the flesh, (not the foreskin, but the fleshly man of desire), has not been circumcised.

This goes to the heart of the question of what the "second death" is? Now that I understand that God has a plan to restore all things Himself, I understand that this "condemned person" must go through the that "circumcision" the hard way. This is the beauty of faith in this lifetime. If we are raised up with Christ through faith, He will make us "...alive together with Him."

[Zeek]

In Acts Chapter 2, Peter gives his first sermon after receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. After his sermon there were those who were "pierced to the heart and said to Peter...'Brethren what shall we do?'"

Peter tells them they must "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Although we know that through Christ's death we have already be reconciled to God, (Romans 5:10) until we are baptized in Him, we have not been raised up with Him through His resurrection.

Colossians 2:13 "And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions"

The uncircumcised flesh is condemned. The person condemned has not been "made alive together with Him..." as long as the flesh, (not the foreskin, but the fleshly man of desire), has not been circumcised.

This goes to the heart of the question of what the "second death" is? Now that I understand that God has a plan to restore all things Himself, I understand that this "condemned person" must go through the that "circumcision" the hard way. This is the beauty of faith in this lifetime. If we are raised up with Christ through faith, He will make us "...alive together with Him."

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[Pierac]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

WELL?!!!!

Now just match Mark 16:16 with Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Joh 6:65  And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

2Ti 2:10  For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Rom 9:16  So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

It's also important to note that Mark 16:16 is missing in many of our earlier Greek manuscripts thus [[Double brackets have been placed around this passage to indicate that most likely it was not part of the original text of the Gospel of Mark.]]

Paul

[legoman]

But wait wait... I always heard God doesn't send anyone to hell, we choose to go there ourself!  I mean God is not completely all powerful because our choice can always override God's will right?  And if someone rejects God, it would really be "hell" to "force" them into "heaven" right?  So God respects their choice to stay in hell.  That is real love.

:laughing7: Sorry I'm in a sarcastic mood this morning :winkgrin:

John 6:44 and John 6:65 (No one comes to Christ unless God drags them and enables them) should put an end to this idea that we can somehow take credit for where our final destination is - be it heaven or a mythical hell.

If people want to believe in a hell, fine, but don't try to claim that it is your free will choice that saves you from hell.  We can only see the truth and have our eyes opened by the good graces of God.

Cheers,
Legoman

[sheila]

   Philippians 2;10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,in heaven and  on earth,and under the earth, and
every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the GLORY
of God,the Father.

   Isaiih 45;23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered
in all integrity,a WORD that will not be revoked, Before me
every knee will bow, by me every tongue will swear. They will
say of me'In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength"

  All who have raged against Him, will come to him and be put to shame.But in the Lord ALL the descendants of Israel,
will be found righteous and will exult.

  1 John 1;9 if we confess our sins,he is faithful and just,
and will forgive us our sins,and purify us from all righteousness.
But if anybody does in,we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense-Jesus Christ, the righteous one. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours,BUT ALSO


                 FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD

  these scriptures show Father's intentions to save the whole world. Jesus  spoke of Father's intention's that through him
the world would be saved. John the baptist testified about Jesus," here is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world"

  Now, the only reply in dispute is the son of perdition or  man of sin being revealed...that going into everlasting cutting off.
Those spoken of as guilty of the 'unforgiveable" sin.

   The anti-Christ spirit is a spirit that denies Jesus and Fathers work of salvation for mankind. Satan[this spirit] that entered Judas..shows this 'son of perdtion' that is cut off forever.

   Satan is cutoff from working in man's corruptible body forever
he is not allowed into the heavenlies and will have no opportunity to corrupt or use man's flesh when they are given their incorrptible,immortal body..

  what spirit has been a manslayer from the beginning..who objects to the salvation of mankind,or the removal of sin from their flesh?

   we will receive the benefits of God and Jesus salvation work on our behalf. They have done it for us,what we were unable to do for ourselves..

   No objection or plan of anykind that the anti-christ spirit has
done in opposition to God,Jesus and their HOLY SPIRIT..
  will suceed.[even though they have the greater part of mankind convinced otherwise]

   In the revealing of Christ to us..and the Great Mystery of godliness and  ungodliness..the man of sin is revealed...
  his plan to lead mankind into death is exposed.

  there is the godly spirit[Holy] and the ungodly spirit[evil]
that have engaged in a tug of war over man's flesh/salvation.We know that God created man for
His spirit to dwell in. So who is this that dares to transgress and is the enemy?He that sins against God's HOLY spirit
and it's will and work?.

  who is it that has blinded the mind of unbeleivers,who is it that twists the word of God to man and lies?Misleading,
tempting and bringing death.

  when you come to terms with his identity..you will know who is CONDEMNED FOREVER AND WHO WILL GO...

    INTO EVERLASTING CUTTING OFF

    Sheila

[WhiteWings]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

WELL?!!!!

What after the condemned that after a while on the BBQ start to believe.....?

[WhiteWings]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

From Merriam-Webster (only quote the more relavant meanings)

2 : to declare the guilt of : make manifest the faults of : attest to the guilt of *his words condemn him*
3 a : to pronounce a judicial sentence against : sentence to punishment or to suffering or loss : 5 archaic   : to pronounce or find guilty
synonyms see CRITICIZE

I read nothing about eternal.... In fact not even what teh punishment is.

[Seth]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

WELL?!!!!

Belief leads to the baptism of the Spirit. The baptism of the spirit saves us from our wicked works and our slavery in iniquity. Whoever does not believe and receive that baptism will be judged (condemnation is not implied by the Greek word krino) as noted in this thread. As legoman pointed out people are judged by being in slavery to sin (ie "judged already"). The parable of the prodigal son reveals that judgment. As Romans 5 says, "by faith we access grace." As Paul says (I think it is in Titus) "the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men TEACHING (paiduo- chastising) us to live Godly lives in this present age." Those who do not believe and recieve spiritual baptism are still in slavery and therefore are in judgment already. Someday, all will be subdued to the kingdom when God is all in all and they have confessed that Jesus is their Lord.

[Tim B]

Guys, this is actually REALLY, REALLY easy to answer: Mark 16:9-20 is not even in the earliest and most reliable New Testament documents/manuscripts. The reality is: Mark 16:9-20 got added in later, but was not part of the original Gospel of Mark. Heck, even Bible's that support ET realize this.

Go here to check it out (it's the little message in bold right before verse 9): http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016&version=31

[Doc]

Man, if 11 verses were added to the end of Mark, it makes you wonder what else has been added...  :sigh:

[WhiteWings]

Man, if 11 verses were added to the end of Mark, it makes you wonder what else has been added...  :sigh:

This: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6283.msg66286#msg66286

[Doc]

Man, if 11 verses were added to the end of Mark, it makes you wonder what else has been added...  :sigh:

This: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6283.msg66286#msg66286

So, everything in the long quote box has been added?

[SPOKENFOR]

lol! The title of this thread alone tickles me. Why is it such a bad thing that God would have a plan to save the world..and why is it so hard to believe? Why do people get so angry about that? wow...