Tentmaker Forum

Someone stated that and linked me this article.  :bigGrin:

http://www.redeemer.com/news_and_events/articles/the_importance_of_hell.html

It's all the same. Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven blah blah *~*~~*~>...

I agree that the Biblical teachings about hell are important, but the interpretation that says there is no chance of liberation from hell is from, well, the pits of hell.

1. It is important because Jesus taught about it more than all other Biblical authors put together.
5x0=0 :laughing7:
But it makes me wonder why the others only preached love. Why did they 'forget' about ET? Noone can deny that's a very important concept. So perhaps their understanding was different form the author of the article.

QuoteWe must come to grips with the fact that Jesus said more about hell than Daniel, Isaiah, Paul, John, Peter put together. Before we dismiss this, we have to realize we are saying to Jesus, the pre-eminent teacher of love and grace in history, "I am less barbaric than you, Jesus--I am more compassionate and wiser than you." Surely that should give us pause! Indeed, upon reflection, it is because of the doctrine of judgment and hell that Jesus' proclamations of grace and love are so astounding.

That's an outright insult in the face of God/Jesus
They need endless torture to prove they can love. Like a father that has 2 sons. He burns one alive in front of the other son. When the 'fun' is over he hugs his son and says to him "To prove my love for you I burned you brother so that my hug feels extra good."

Hell is very important to those that believe they are saved from it.  Sadly/thankfully we are all going to hell - literally - it is called the grave (or urn if you are that way inclined)

Laughable :laughing7:

It amazes me there is a push to believe in hell as opposed to the teachings of Jesus  :dontknow:

Seeker I think it's also a matter of pride. (and self-hypnoses)
Just imagine you are a preacher that for 40 years preached hell and damnation 3 times a week.
Then he reads an UR book and can find faults in it arguing.
Do you think his next sermon starts with: "Sorry folks I was wrong for 40 years and forget all I said about hell."

Hi WhiteWings,

Rejecting all that the Bible teaches about hell and punishments after death is not the only approach to UR. For example, Jesus taught about hell per Mark 9:42-49. But the Roman school in the Early Church  corrupted the teaching by saying that nobody who enters hell and can escape hell. We may reject the Roman interpretation without rejecting the New Testament teaching.

I agree with you James.
We should never reject what's written in the Bible. But we should reject wrong interpretations.
Eternal torture with real fire and brimstone is so diffrent from temporary correction with something different from real fire that I wrote 'forget about hell'

FYI I believe many people, including me, are in for a bad time after death. So I surely don't reject any for of hell.

Sorry for the confusion.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2008, 09:02:41 PM
Seeker I think it's also a matter of pride. (and self-hypnoses)
Just imagine you are a preacher that for 40 years preached hell and damnation 3 times a week.
Then he reads an UR book and can find faults in it arguing.
Do you think his next sermon starts with: "Sorry folks I was wrong for 40 years and forget all I said about hell."

Carlton Pearson did it, I guess it goes about the motive of the heart.

Pay back justice demands well - payback - that sadly is the mindset of the majority.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2008, 09:02:41 PM
Seeker I think it's also a matter of pride. (and self-hypnoses)
Just imagine you are a preacher that for 40 years preached hell and damnation 3 times a week.
Then he reads an UR book and can find faults in it arguing.
Do you think his next sermon starts with: "Sorry folks I was wrong for 40 years and forget all I said about hell."

Plus, are you going to say that my mentors were wrong?  What about all of my heroes of the faith?  Everyone knows that all of my heroes of the faith are the only heroes of the faith worth speaking of in Church history?  There were no others!  Are you going to say that there was no Gospel preaching since the Reformation??  Plus, it's the only side of Church history that I've looked into, so there must be no other side to Church history.  Otherwise, the Christian bookstores would carry it!  (Pssst. Read Elhanan Winchester and Andrew Jukes :Sparkletooth:)

Hi SeekerSA,

How are you doing?:)

It looks like every shred of our past diologue is removed. Oh, well.:)

Blessings,

If something got pulled either today or yesterday, I don't know anything about it.  I've had a lot going on for about 3 days and have only been popping in for 3 or 4 minutes here and there.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 09, 2008, 11:51:36 PM
If something got pulled either today or yesterday, I don't know anything about it.  I've had a lot going on for about 3 days and have only been popping in for 3 or 4 minutes here and there.

No, not that. I haven't visited since the category removal in the spring.

WhiteWings, I'm sorry that you feel that your in for a bad time after death. Of course, we don't believe that the bad times have to last literally forever. And there are no eternal issues that Jesus cannot take care of before we die.

Blessings,

willieH: Howdy...  :happygrin:

Quote from: B_T on August 09, 2008, 02:06:13 AM
It's all the same. Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven blah blah *~*~~*~>...

"Importance of "HELL" my a__  :sigh:

Sorry, but "HELL" is somewhat of a pet peeve of mine... It is hardly IMPORTANT, and has NOTHING to do with LIFE, which IS the GOSPEL...

I just watched a TV program about Carlton Pearson the other nite... In it one of the quoted evangelists, and former "friend" of Carlton, said WORD FOR WORD, just what B_T quoted above... :rolleye:

FYI... especially for "lurkers" (guests and non-posting members)...  might I note the following:

JESUS "spoke" the word GEHENNA on a TOTAL of 4 occasions, ...and the word HADES on a TOTAL of 3 occasions... a TOTAL of 7 days or occasions, ...out of over 1200+ days of ministry...

Which amounts to ONCE, every 172 days, or, twice a year... did He bother to mention either of these words...  To me, this could hardly be considered a FOCUS... and if it was really, "IMPORTANT"... He would have spoken MUCH more often about this possible "destination"...

When one speaks of something, once every SIX MONTHS... it is shown to have a very small place on ones agenda...  Something so "IMPORTANT"... would not only be mentioned MUCH MORE often than once every SIX MONTHS... but the writings which came forth from CHRIST's Apostles would also REFLECT this "IMPORTANT" teaching as well, would it not?

Two of the New Testament "heavyweight writers" as far as content and measure  goes... Paul and John, did NOT MENTION this "destination" ...at ALL!   

Neither is it (HELL) found in the Book of ACTS... Which is an EARLY dialogue of the GOSPEL going out to the World... and is not found in JUDE either... 

WHY?  If this teaching of "HELL" is so "ALL IMPORTANT", and it is to be the DESTINATION of MOST... why was it IGNORED by these "IMPORTANT" Apostles?   :dontknow:

I'll tell you WHY... Because it is a LIE... and it is NOT a DESTINATION at all... it is NOW... in THIS LIFE that we experience GEHENNA FIRE AND HADES... it is NOW in THIS LIFE that we experience many forms of TORMENTS,  ...MENTAL dispairs, disfunctions and disappointments, ...PHYSICAL afflictions and diseases,  ...and most of all SPIRITUAL hurt, including various separations from one another and especially OUR CREATOR!  And finally, it is in THIS LIFE that both FORMS of DEATH (1st & 2nd) occur (Spiritual and Natural) ...only IN FAITH shall we rise above these assaulting TORMENTS, in the HOPE of our SALVATION from them...

Concerning the uses of "HELL" outside of the Gospel accounts:

Only the Books of

(1)  TARTARUS 2 Peter 2:4 which ONCE uses Tartarus (not Hades or Gehenna),  ...
(2)  GEHENNA James 3:6 ONCE (which refers to the tongue as Gehenna fire),  ...and
(3)  HADES  Revelation 1:18 / 6:8 / 20:13-14  (which must use it, as CHRIST REVEALED has the keys to HADES [the grave] and death...)

There is no other mention beyond the GOSPELaccounts, ...of Hades and/or Gehenna than these...

It certainly was NOT an agenda of "IMPORTANCE" to the followers of CHRIST...

Here is a little breakdown of Hades, and Gehenna... believe what you will...

Of the 3 mentions of HADES, they were ALL found in SYMBOLIC or PARABOLIC orations... NONE were LITERAL,  ... nor did any of these even refer to LITERAL scenarios... 

1. (Mt 11:23 / Lk 10:15) 2 accounts of the same occasion, and were not concerned with INDIVIDUALS nor a potential "Eternal DESTINATION" for INDIVIDUALS...

2. (Mt 16:18) ...Also was not referring to an "Eternal DESTINATION"

3. (Luke 16:23) This is within a parable, which does not mention HEAVEN, GOD, or ETERNITY...

Nor does it note the RICH MAN as negative in any way... (He just "got the breaks" in life)... It is also not noted that he (the rich man) did anything negative to Lazerus or anyone else... It IS noted that they both DIED, but the DEATH they DIED is not indicated to be the NATURAL death... It is better noted to be SPIRITUAL death...

This parable is NOT speaking of an Eternal DESTINATION which INDIVIDUALS are "going to" at all! ...it is speaking of the SPIRITUAL condition in which both of these are found, and one -- Lazerus is in the "bosum" of Abraham (not Heaven)... which is the "bosum" of FAITH... 

This parable is simply denoting the IMPASSIBLE (except by REVELATION of GOD),  CHASM or GULF between BELIEVING and NOT BELIEVING... showing that an UNBELIEVER doesn't believe in either the OLD (Moses/Torah) or NEW (Jesus) testaments which contain FAITH...

In the Bosom of Abraham, is Lazerus comforted by FAITH... The RICH MAN was addressed by CHRIST in the NT, as was LAZERUS, they were both REAL characters, and there is no coincidence that BOTH were mentioned in this parable.

The RICH MAN asked CHRIST what he might do to have Eternal life... and was found unwilling to give up his "riches"...  and was the illustration that LOVE of, and TRUST in RICHES prevents FAITH and prevents that one from entering into the Kingdom of God... a parabolic  illustration of the pathway to DEATH!  (Mk 10:17-25)

LAZERUS on the other hand was a common man that found FAITH and was the illustration of the RESURRECTION teaching, given by CHRIST... a parabolic illustration of the pathway to LIFE!  (John 11:11-45)



Of the 4 mentions of GEHENNA, ...Again,

1. (Matt 5:22,29 / Mark 9:43, 45, 47) 2 accounts, same occasion... At the end of the account in Mark it says EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE... and that SALT is GOOD!  ...At the end of the oration in Matthews account CHRIST speaks of LOVING and FORGIVING enemies!

2. (Matt 10:28 / Luke 12:5) same occasion... This passage, after mentioning Gehenna... says that SPARROWS are not even OUTSIDE the concern of GOD... and that MEN are of MUCH more value than are Sparrows to God!  That FIRE tests our lives is part of the PROCESS of SALVATION (1 Cor 3:11-15)  To observe that FIRE as NATURAL is to NOT observe it as SPIRITUAL...

3. (Matt 23:15 & 33) same occasion... these verses are speaking of JUDGMENT, not an ETERNAL "destination"...

4. (Matt 18:9)... This passage is clearly NOT speaking about Gehenna as a DESTINATION, rather is about a PROCESS, ... It is speaking about removing EVIL from the use of the body you have in the NATURAL for GOOD...

If it is speaking of Gehenna as a NATURAL or LITERAL entity,  ...we are then to be LITERALLY cutting off hands & feet, poking out eyes... etc.   And NO ONE has been found LITERALLY following this instruction, so in essence, ...we would ALL be doomed, ...How ridiculous is this viewpoint! :rolleye: 

However one might look upon these notations of "HELL"... they are to be understood in SPIRIT... and are NOT in any way LITERAL... nor are they NOTED to be ETERNAL DESTINATIONS for MEN...

GOD so LOVED the WORLD... And is NOT WILLING that ANY PERISH, and NEVER WILL be WILLING...

GOD, nor CHRIST ever changes... GOD still LOVES the WORLD, and ALWAYS WILL, ...LOVE the WORLD...

CONCLUSION...  HELL has no "IMPORTANCE"... neither is it a place that is ETERNAL, nor is anyone DESTINED to "go there"...  We live IN IT... and IT is DESTINED for DESTRUCTION, not the BELOVED Creatures of GOD...

Quote from: martincisneros on August 09, 2008, 11:25:56 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2008, 09:02:41 PM
Seeker I think it's also a matter of pride. (and self-hypnoses)
Just imagine you are a preacher that for 40 years preached hell and damnation 3 times a week.
Then he reads an UR book and can find faults in it arguing.
Do you think his next sermon starts with: "Sorry folks I was wrong for 40 years and forget all I said about hell."

Plus, are you going to say that my mentors were wrong?  What about all of my heroes of the faith?  Everyone knows that all of my heroes of the faith are the only heroes of the faith worth speaking of in Church history?  There were no others!  Are you going to say that there was no Gospel preaching since the Reformation??  Plus, it's the only side of Church history that I've looked into, so there must be no other side to Church history.  Otherwise, the Christian bookstores would carry it!  (Pssst. Read Elhanan Winchester and Andrew Jukes :Sparkletooth:)

Quote from: martincisneros on August 09, 2008, 11:25:56 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 09, 2008, 09:02:41 PM
Seeker I think it's also a matter of pride. (and self-hypnoses)
Just imagine you are a preacher that for 40 years preached hell and damnation 3 times a week.
Then he reads an UR book and can find faults in it arguing.
Do you think his next sermon starts with: "Sorry folks I was wrong for 40 years and forget all I said about hell."

Plus, are you going to say that my mentors were wrong?  What about all of my heroes of the faith?  Everyone knows that all of my heroes of the faith are the only heroes of the faith worth speaking of in Church history?  There were no others!  Are you going to say that there was no Gospel preaching since the Reformation??  Plus, it's the only side of Church history that I've looked into, so there must be no other side to Church history.  Otherwise, the Christian bookstores would carry it!  (Pssst. Read Elhanan Winchester and Andrew Jukes :Sparkletooth:)

I don't understand your reply Martin. I'm not even sure you reply to me or just quotes me; but I'll try to give a general reply that may cover what you asked.
I think it's safe to assume everyone sees Jesus as the number one mentor followed by His Apostles.
And look around how many interpretations there are of the words written down. Even if you just take KJV without any Greek Hebrew there is enough difference to start a wars about (see the history of Europe)
My point is that they all had the same teacher. They all had the same book. But their conclusions where different. So the fault is at the students not the teachers.
I have no idea who you heroes are but I'm sure you picked them very carefully after reading 1000's of pages about their idea's.
Others did the same, and came up with other heroes. I can't speak for you, so I only speak for me, I think the majority of believers really think they understood the Bible correctly. So no matter how wrong their believe is very honest and from the heart. Now imagine you preached 40 years from your heart and someone proves to you you where wrong at certain critical points. Would you openly admit that as a preacher? Especially if that means you no longer 'fit' in that church and so lose your job.
Maybe you will admit it but I doubt many will. Just look at daily life. All kind of discussions about things that are not even worth the breath speaking the words.
But admit you are wrong.... That can be very hard.

Bit more clear now?

First a very personal question to WillieH: Do you like smilies and colors :)

QuoteConcerning the uses of "HELL" outside of the Gospel accounts:

I know even less I feared. I always thought the whole NT was the Gospel....

QuoteWHY? If this teaching of "HELL" is so "ALL IMPORTANT", and it is to be the DESTINATION of MOST... why was it IGNORED by these "IMPORTANT" Apostles?

And... did God 'forgot' to mention it in the OT for thousands of years?
Or where the rules changed? The fire was originally created for the devil and his angles. From Christ onwards also for sinners? Mmm, that would also mean there is no eternal life before Jesus...  :Chinscratch:

QuoteI'll tell you WHY... Because it is a LIE... and it is NOT a DESTINATION at all... it is NOW... in THIS LIFE that we experience GEHENNA FIRE AND HADES... it is NOW in THIS LIFE that we experience many forms of TORMENTS, ...MENTAL dispairs, disfunctions and disappointments, ...PHYSICAL afflictions and diseases, ...and most of all SPIRITUAL hurt, including various separations from one another and especially OUR CREATOR! And finally, it is in THIS LIFE that both FORMS of DEATH (1st & 2nd) occur (Spiritual and Natural) ...only IN FAITH shall we rise above these assaulting TORMENTS, in the HOPE of our SALVATION from them...

Can you clarify that for me Willie?
Are you saying we are now suffering the age-during punishment? If so the some 'people' need to live thousands of years.
To play the Hitler card again. He had a good life until near his death. What was his age-during punishment?

Quote from: james.goetz on August 09, 2008, 11:47:18 PM
Hi SeekerSA,

How are you doing?:)

It looks like every shred of our past diologue is removed. Oh, well.:)

Blessings,

Hi James

Yes it is in the basement archives.  You and I disagreed on the concept of temporal punishment.  I dismiss any form of punishment but that is where I am at.  The arguments for temporal is again based upon essentially one passage in Matthew (too lazy to look it up) and is very much IMO an introduction to UR for the die hard ET folk.

My POV is just too radical for many but there are folk that think like me and folk that you appeal to.  At best what we share here are no more than opinions of our truth(s).  To each his own.

If we both help folk out of the dogma of lies, then PTL.

Blessings to you too

willieH: Hi WW...  :giveheart:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2008, 10:14:09 AM
First a very personal question to WillieH: Do you like smilies and colors :)

Now what would make you think that? :mock: ....  :boyheart: :girlheart: :grin: :bigGrin: :Sparkletooth: :winkgrin: :happygrin: :laughing7: :icon_king: :icon_queen: :icon_flower: :icon_joker: ....  :pointlaugh:

All kidding aside, ...I have been cutting DOWN on my use of the smilies as some get riled by them (:rolleye:)... but colorizations and caps are used to EMPHASIZE what I am saying...  You do it your way, I do it mine...

Can I ask YOU a personal question?  Why DON'T you use these things?

seeing this is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion, I will post my comments on that which IS RELEVANT in the next post!  Seeya then! :hithere:

willieH: Hi WhiteWings...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: willieHConcerning the uses of "HELL" outside of the Gospel accounts:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2008, 10:14:09 AMI know even less I feared. I always thought the whole NT was the Gospel....

In order to propose the GOSPEL... you must define what GOSPEL means WW... the 2 words translated GOSPEL in the NT are Euaggelion (#G2098) and Euaggelizo (#G2097).  These 2 words are derived from the roots AGGELOS (#G32)meaning messenger, and EU (#G2095) meaning GOOD

The "GOSPEL", therefore is a message which is GOOD... No portion of it is otherwise.

The NT is the 2nd witness of GOD... it is found to be the SPIRITUAL witness, for the order of GOD is that the NATURAL comes FIRST, ...then THE SPIRITUAL... (1 Cor 15:46)

The OT message (witness/testimony) was full of LAW, Fear, Vengence, Slaughter, Wrath, etc... (which are ALL related to one another), and is the message of MAN in His NATURAL state, and GOD longsuffering man IN that state... (1st ADAM/DEATH)

The NT message (witness/testimony) is full of GRACE, Forgiveness, Peace, Reconciliation, etc... (which are ALL related to one another) and is GOD redeeming MAN from his NATURAL state (which leads to death), INTO the SPIRITUAL (which leads to LIFE)...  (Last ADAM/LIFE)

In my observation (spent 25yrs in the "religious" system of Christianity), The biggest problem in Christianity, is that they have carried on, in the RELIGION of the Pharisees... as they try to deliver the GOSPEL to the WORLD... and thus, they fail... for their message is STILL found to be NATURAL, ...full of FEAR, VENGENCE and WRATH... teaching MORE shall be PUNISHED forever, instead of RECONCILED forever... which is reserved for THEM, which are FEW by comparison...

There is GOSPEL teaching throughout the entire NT if you understand its meanings in the SPIRIT...  If its meanings take you OUTSIDE of the SPIRIT, back to LAW and VENGENCE and PUNISHMENTS... then your observation is yet in the CARNAL...

Quote from: willieHWHY? If this teaching of "HELL" is so "ALL IMPORTANT", and it is to be the DESTINATION of MOST... why was it IGNORED by these "IMPORTANT" Apostles?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2008, 10:14:09 AMAnd... did God 'forgot' to mention it in the OT for thousands of years?
Or where the rules changed?

The "rules" never changed... MAN is the one which CHANGES... The 2 Testimonies or witnesses (OT / NT) are found to be the NATURAL witness, preceeding the SPIRITUAL...

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2008, 10:14:09 AMThe fire was originally created for the devil and his angles. From Christ onwards also for sinners? Mmm, that would also mean there is no eternal life before Jesus...  :Chinscratch:

In order to answer this, we must define "WHAT and/or WHO are the "devil and 'his angels"

To begin with the "devil" is NOT a being, and is never defined as such in the Word... It is the NATURAL ADVERSITY that is IN MAN... which man uses to DISOBEY the command of GOD...  ALL men have been found using this "adversity"... therefore ALL are entered into it (the Lake of FIRE... which is NOW)

"ANGELS" are messengers... so the "devil and ITS angels" is the message of ADVERSITY which is that GOD shall DESTROY most of HIS BELOVED Creation, and the "ANGELS" are the "deliverers" of that message to the WORLD...

Quote from: willieHI'll tell you WHY... Because it is a LIE... and it is NOT a DESTINATION at all... it is NOW... in THIS LIFE that we experience GEHENNA FIRE AND HADES... it is NOW in THIS LIFE that we experience many forms of TORMENTS, ...MENTAL dispairs, disfunctions and disappointments, ...PHYSICAL afflictions and diseases, ...and most of all SPIRITUAL hurt, including various separations from one another and especially OUR CREATOR! And finally, it is in THIS LIFE that both FORMS of DEATH (1st & 2nd) occur (Spiritual and Natural) ...only IN FAITH shall we rise above these assaulting TORMENTS, in the HOPE of our SALVATION from them...

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2008, 10:14:09 AMCan you clarify that for me Willie?
Are you saying we are now suffering the age-during punishment? If so the some 'people' need to live thousands of years.

What would you like me to clarify WW?  No offense (I really mean this) dear WW, ...but your questions appear to me, unspecific, and obscure... I will try to decrypt this one as best as I am able... If I am off the mark, RE-WORD it, and I'll try again!  :cloud9:

Most observers of the Bible are completely OBSESSED with PUNISHMENT, and fail to see that a PROCESS of the POTTER in which He is forming the CLAY is aflight... (Jer 18:4). 

IN that process, MARRING occurs BY the POTTER, ...PURPOSELY, to display the difference between that which is COMPLETE (finished/redeemed man--healed) and that which is INCOMPLETE (deficient/disobedient man--suffering)

Punishment is not what we are "SUFFERING"... if that were so, then JESUS CHRIST was "punished" for doing NOTHING WRONG (Heb 2:10)

We are SUFFERING because it is part of the PROCESS of PERFECTION... and we FOLLOW JESUS in that "suffering", unto perfection (completion)

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2008, 10:14:09 AMTo play the Hitler card again. He had a good life until near his death. What was his age-during punishment?

Sorry, brother, but I am not amongst the "punishment" -- "age during" crowd...

Hitler was a case like all cases, which I am NOT in position to JUDGE... It is God's affair to handle the case of Hitler... and there is MUCH PURPOSE in what Hitler DID, otherwise, GOD would not have brought him forth...

Look at Romans 9:17... the surface observation of the life of PHARAOH concerning the JEWS was that He was a terrible, awful, enslaving, brutal, evil taskmaster...

But the WORD of GOD says, that GOD raised up PHARAOH to do what he did!  Whattupwidat?

Well, its called the BIG PICTURE... and only GOD has a view of this BIG PICTURE we call the History of the Human Race...  We only see a small portion of the events in that BIG PICTURE, and are even MORE miniscule in most cases as to our contribution to the total of that BIG PICTURE...

However, my dear brother (sister?)... without our contributions, however small they may appear, ...the BIG PICTURE would be an INCOMPLETE BIG PICTURE -- eh?  :dontknow:

QuoteWhat would you like me to clarify WW?  No offense (I really mean this) dear WW, ...but your questions appear to me, unspecific, and obscure... I will try to decrypt this one as best as I am able... If I am off the mark, RE-WORD it, and

No offence taken. Firstly because I don't believe you wanted to offend and secondly because my knowledge is so small it can't be offended....

Any here it goes again.
You say we live in the lake of fire right now.
I assumed we are judges after death and then goto heaven or into the lake for a (short) while to be corrected.
And the correction's primary goal is to understand the love/words/wishes of God. Right?
Back to Hitler now. Yes we aren't the ones to judge. I can agree with that. I know very little about teh teachings of Jesus but still I feel pretty sure 'kill 6 miljon' wasn't part of that teaching. And certainly not of "Thou shalt not kill'
Humanity lives in the corrective lake of fire right now. I think it's safe to say we (humanity) made a big mess of the world. So we didn't understand/care about the word of God.
When we die. What happens then? I mean at some point of time men must come to complete understanding.

I hope I'm a bit clear. :newb: :hithere: :hihat: :ty: :grave: :teaching: :friendstu: :tease: :banana:

willieH: Hello my friend WhiteWings!  :happygrin:

Quote from: willieHWhat would you like me to clarify WW?  No offense (I really mean this) dear WW, ...but your questions appear to me, unspecific, and obscure... I will try to decrypt this one as best as I am able... If I am off the mark, RE-WORD it, and

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2008, 12:06:39 AMNo offence taken. Firstly because I don't believe you wanted to offend and secondly because my knowledge is so small it can't be offended....

I'm glad you were not offended, and thanks for taking time to reword your question!  :cloud9:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2008, 12:06:39 AMAny here it goes again.
You say we live in the lake of fire right now.
I assumed we are judges after death and then goto heaven or into the lake for a (short) while to be corrected.
And the correction's primary goal is to understand the love/words/wishes of God. Right?

It is the belief of most Christianity that the LAKE of FIRE is (1) a DESTRUCTIVE entity and (2) that it is found at the END of THIS LIFE... at some unknown moment in the future (at the end of TIME)

I do not subscribe to either of these thoughts... I believe the correction of MEN is done both INDIVIDUALLY and COLLECTIVELY... we are INDIVIDUAL parts of the COLLECTIVE BODY of CHRIST...

The "LAKE of FIRE" is THIS LIFETIME... in which ALL EVIL which is in need of correction, appears...

The CORRECTION is done by the WORD of GOD (2 Tim 3:16) before TIME comes to its end...

Part of the Corrective process is suffering... and part of the Corrective process is JUDGMENT... (Is 26:9)

Correction is done in and of, all facets of MEN born in ADAM...

That Correction is JESUS CHRIST... who is revealed in each man, INDIVIDUALLY... and ALL, ...COLLECTIVELY.

Time shall exist until the LAST DAY in which both RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT take place... (John 6:44 / 12:48)...

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2008, 12:06:39 AMBack to Hitler now. Yes we aren't the ones to judge. I can agree with that. I know very little about teh teachings of Jesus but still I feel pretty sure 'kill 6 miljon' wasn't part of that teaching. And certainly not of "Thou shalt not kill'
Humanity lives in the corrective lake of fire right now. I think it's safe to say we (humanity) made a big mess of the world. So we didn't understand/care about the word of God.

As far as Hitler is concerned... to disassociate GOD from what he did is (in my observation) an erroneous position.

1st, and foremost, ...Hitler was GOD's creation... and
2nd, GOD knew beforehand ALL that Hitler would do, but brought him forth, nevertheless...
3rd, GOD also put in TIME/ERA proximity, ALL the 6 million lives that Hitler took...
4th, GOD created the method of execution -- FIRE...
5th, Even though GOD knew these events would transpire, He did NOTHING to prevent them, nor did He intervene during their administration...

So, as I see it, GOD could have eliminated ANY of the above (there are actually other facts, just too lazy to recount them...  :mblush:), and Hitler would not even be a story that you and I would be discussing!

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2008, 12:06:39 AMWhen we die. What happens then? I mean at some point of time men must come to complete understanding.

In the process of Resurrection and Judgment, ALL shall find reconciliation... within reconciliation is the understanding of the Big Picture given to all, as YHVH God, is shown to be Eternally, ...ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:28)

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2008, 12:06:39 AMI hope I'm a bit clear. :newb: :hithere: :hihat: :ty: :grave: :teaching: :friendstu: :tease: :banana:

:laugh:  Clear as a fog in London... Just Kiddin!  :pointlaugh:

Thanks for taking time to clarify... If you have not understood this reply, feel free to question me further...  :cloud9:

Hi SmileyMasterW  :hithere:

I think I understood you correctly.
It's just a bit hard to believe for me.
I keep reading every letter in the Bible with a wordly view.
With the human justice system.
I know that's  :thumbdown:. But I can't separate  Bible and earth (yet)

:icon_flower:

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

Hope you are having a great day!  :bgdance:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2008, 02:51:20 PM
Hi SmileyMasterW  :hithere:

I think I understood you correctly.
It's just a bit hard to believe for me.
I keep reading every letter in the Bible with a wordly view.
With the human justice system.
I know that's  :thumbdown:. But I can't separate  Bible and earth (yet)

:icon_flower:

No apology is necessary for "where you are" at this point in time my friend...  :friendstu:

It's okay to be where you are upon your pathway dear WW... God takes us all on our individual journeys which start at different times, and progress at different paces, but eventually, ...always lead back to Himself...

No one knows it all... but in my 32yrs of study, I have come to believe that logic must be applied to the LOVE of God as we teach it, that REASON shall be found by the listener...

One of the biggest REASONS that Christianity is rejected (aside from God's will in each case)... is that the threats of such things as ...HELL and Torment in the Lake of Fire, do NOT make REASONABLE sense, to an unbeliever... when proposed as actions of a "God of LOVE"...

For even an unbeliever KNOWS what LOVE IS...

I can speak of the LOVE of CHRIST to an athiest or agnostic... and even though to them the Bible appears to speak of Horrors... the only way they shall give any creedence to that presentation, is if it matches up to what they KNOW to be LOVE... If it doesnt... then they see that presentation as hypocritical, foolish, and illogical... and the message falls upon deaf ears, as IT SHOULD.

But when the teaching makes SENSE and is shown to be PRODUCTIVE as opposed to DESTRUCTIVE... then REASON begins its entrance into the teaching...  :thumbsup:

I have been involved in several discussion forums over the last 8yrs and have encountered many athiests and agnostics...  The biggest positive that has resulted from those discussions is this... they say, almost to a word...

"If I were to BELIEVE there is a GOD... which I do not... HE would be the one that YOU speak of... which is NOT the one that Christianity speaks of...  Your "GOD" is only one who does LOVE... and THAT is the evidence that would be necessary for me to BELIEVE He exists"...

If we present GOD to be the cosmic BULLY that (most of) Christianity proposes He is... (hell, lake of fire, vengence, etc) then only because of FEAR of CONSEQUENCE does He gain followers, rather than because He has shown Himself to be as He claims HE IS... LOVE!  :HeartThrob:

Hi Willie

There are all kind of atheists. Even the type that believes in God. Sound weird doesn't it?
A friend of my. A very kindhearted fellow believes there is a God.
But he wants to be an Atheist because:
a] He doesn't want to be in company of a God that casts people in hell.
b] He doesn't want to be in company of a God that allows believing massmurders in Heaven.

I told him the UR view on a]. He accepts that. He never really believed in litteral fire.
However b] is a still a stumbling block for him.

I'm not really looking for an explanation on those points because I know the position of many on this board on the above topics.
I just wanted to point out there are many things that keep people away from God.
Many accept He exists. They also sorta accept He is loving (but like me can't understand my many babies had to be drowned during the flood). But they hate His justice system.

The UR view for me personally makes me having a more positive view about God.
But... flood....destruction of Sodom and Gomorra...etc
I fully accept there where very bad people. But why why kill a baby?
Most likely God has 50 billion good reasons for that. But if I don't know or understand them then it stirs up trouble in our relationship....

Anyway I bought some new hiking boots and gonna look for that narrow path


:Egyptdance2: :beerburp:

Your guys emoticons make me giggle.  :laughing7: