Folks who believe in eternal torment will make this statement from time to time, and I just wanted to know what you all think about it. Thanks.
I believe its where Satan and his demons are, fallen angels are the demons.
Not sure if there's a specific passage that says that Hell was created for the devil and his angels. The only passage that I can think of that approximates something in that ballpark is Matthew 25's sheep and goats parable. Just means the devil and his angels are only subject to age-lasting corrections, per Matthew 25:46. Not sure where this fits in some people's eschatology since I'm still in search of my own, but perhaps this is why the devil is loosed for a little season at the end of the thousand years in Revelation 20.
Fallen angels surround the city and fire falls from heaven and there's a resurrection and people are condemned based on the things that are written in the books prior to being cast into the Lake of Fire, according to the most common interpretation of the last verse of Revelation 20. For some people, the fire prepared for the devil and his angels is what happened to Jerusalem in 70AD when it was burned down. Others would possibly lean towards the fires of the incident described by Ezekiel 38 and 39 that [some would say] predates the thousand years, when the weapons of the Russian/Iranian lead army that they attempt to use on Israel basically explode in their faces because of God's intervention. Others may make the Matthew 25 fires out to be synonymous with the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20.
I personally believe that being a judgment of works that it's contemporary and ongoing and reflects more a state of existence after the Pronouncements of God rather than a futuristic event. Because St. Peter's epistle, as well as Jude's, indicates that they're bound now. So, where people enter into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels would likely be either a metaphorical or spiritual reality when people are selfish, which is what the sheep/goat parable is a judgment of, or it's selfish people being scorched by the effects of war. Proverbs says that one's gift makes a way for one, so based upon that, and based upon a hundred other passages of Scripture (seriously) there appears to be a way in which generous people -- very generous -- are lead by the Holy Spirit around, away from, or through calamity without the smell of smoke being on their clothes.
Minimally, the fire prepared for the devil and his angels is the fear and isolation that accompanies being a stingy person. I'm basing this on a lot of Scriptures, plus the justice and consistency of God. If people are entering the fire prepared for the devil and his angels because of what they didn't do for Christ's brethren, and those are the only crimes mentioned in the indictments against the people partaking of that judgment -- although there's lots of other types of sinners that God could have chosen to judge with that particular fire had He simply decided to -- then it's very likely that those are the reasons and stories unknown to us for why the devil and his angels are likewise being considered cursed and sent into this fire. I'm leery of getting dogmatic with details when it comes to parables, but the particular crimes seem to be detailed to us for a reason -- whatever form this fire takes for the nations that are involved in this judgment.
If I were to fall back on a dark ages understanding of this, because of all of the grayness in all of the interpretations that I've seen thus far on this parable, then: this could be the place where the devil and his angels are allowed to torment the nations that are given over to them for a time through all of the different kinds of evils that befall whole nations, though not necessarily each individual in a nation, because of the peculiarity of it being a parable relating to the condemnation of nations that didn't do right by Jews and/or Christians (which ever is your preferred immediate implication of Christ's statement in this indictment about His brethren not being treated right). Some nations escaped the evils of 70AD and the following centuries.
And on the futurist interpretation of prophecy, some nations are conspicuously unmentioned or only hinted at, which could mean they're counted among the sheep while these disasters are befalling the rest of the world that is mentioned in Bible prophecy. I can't entirely discount the dark ages scenario on this sheep/goats parable of it's being a context where the devil and his angels get to virtually do what they want with selfish nations that turn away from atrocities to others. The story of Job with Job falling into the hands of the devil and what's said in Daniel about fallen angels being over nations come to mind along these lines.
Except that nowhere in scripture is the devil called a fallen angel, and so this simply says that the 'adversary' has 'messengers'.
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 04, 2008, 01:50:59 PM
Except that nowhere in scripture is the devil called a fallen angel, and so this simply says that the 'adversary' has 'messengers'.
Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Because the Hebrew says "Heylel" AKA Helel son of Shahar
The KJV followed Jerome's lead from the Vulgate - an early-5th-century translation of the Bible into Latin from Greek (note: NOT from the original Hebrew). In Jerome's translation - "Lucifer" occurs in Isaiah 14:12-14 as a translation of the Greek word heosphorus ("dawn-bearer"), an epithet of Venus. The actual Hebrew text says הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), meaning "Helel son of Shahar."
Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.
Helel was the god of the morning star and his father was Shahar, god of the dawn. Some translations of Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard Version translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word Ben as son and the Hebrew word Shahar as "of the morning."
In Isaiah, this title is specifically used, in a prophetic vision, referring the king of Babylon's pride and to illustrate his eventual fate by referencing Babylon's own mythological accounts of the planet Venus' fall from grace from among the gods.
There is just centuries of Christian tradition (non-biblical) attached to the subject and the obvious meaning gets totally lost in the translation.
Ezek 28:2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.
The problem some people have when it comes verses like these is that they have trouble distinguishing poetic language from literal language. When they see something like:
Ezek 28:14-15 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
They jump from the subject previously defined (that being Tyre) to a literalistic definition of a guardian cherub. They think the answer must be "It's Satan". But then the literalistic approach falls apart in the next verse:
Ezek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
It no longer works to say that Satan was expelled from heaven because of his widespread trade and violence. In context it is impossible to make these verses refer to Satan. There are no Biblical statements which identify Satan as a guardian cherub, that is only a result of the reader inserting their preconceived ideas into the verse.
The chapters around the references used by those who support the Lucifer myth (in both Isaiah and Ezekiel) are prophecies dealing with other nations. Many with the same kind of poetic language. For instance:
Ezek 31:2-9 "Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his hordes: "'Who can be compared with you in majesty? 3 Consider Assyria, once a cedar in Lebanon, with beautiful branches overshadowing the forest; it towered on high, its top above the thick foliage...8 The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it, nor could the pine trees equal its boughs, nor could the plane trees compare with its branches-- no tree in the garden of God could match its beauty. 9 I made it beautiful with abundant branches, the envy of all the trees of Eden in the garden of God. (NIV)
Now maybe one could read these verses and say that again we have a reference to Satan. But that kind of creative exegesis would just lead to other problems - such as who are those which envy the mighty tree in Eden.
Now when the above information is presented someone may say "yes the prophecy is about Babylon or Tyre but it is also about the power which is behind their kingdoms, and that is Satan". But should we ignore all we know about Biblical interpretation so that we can keep a myth about Lucifer that no one prior to the second century had any idea of? A myth which no New Testament author even vaguely referred too?
Some supporters of the Lucifer myth point these verses in Isaiah 14:
You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (NIV)
It is suggested that this is referencing Satan since these ambitions clearly exceed the reach of any human ruler. But of course - they exceed the reach of Satan also. Besides, delusions of grandeur are not uncommon among earthly rulers. We must remember that these and other verses are filled with poetic language.
Quote from: firstbornHelel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.
And what exactly do you think the religion of satan is? Remember the head of the horrible statue in Daniel 2? The head represented Babylon--the mind of satan. The Babylonian religion is alive and well to this day.
Do you really think some random man, even a king, can lay low the nations? Nations is translated 'gentiles.'
So are the gentiles laid low because of a man or because of a dark spiritual force?
QuoteEzek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
And exactly how do you think satan operates in this world? Remember Jesus and the moneychangers? What are we told? Money is
the root of all evil. The root of our tree is Christ. But the root of this tree is satan, represented by his spiritual currency--money.
Quoteso that we can keep a myth about Lucifer that no one prior to the second century had any idea of? A myth which no New Testament author even vaguely referred too?
When did satan become a myth? I must have missed that, especially because he becomes more apparent in the world every day. Wait till you see what's coming next! He'll make a believer of you, yet.
QuoteYou said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (NIV)
It is suggested that this is referencing Satan since these ambitions clearly exceed the reach of any human ruler. But of course - they exceed the reach of Satan also. Besides, delusions of grandeur are not uncommon among earthly rulers. We must remember that these and other verses are filled with poetic language.
Making himself like the Most High, making himself higher than God, --this is exactly what satan hopes to achieve. And, he inspires his followers to think they can achieve this, too.
...ye shall be as gods...But, it takes a rebellion to be as gods, and, if the rebellion succeeds, you are now higher than God because you've beaten him. That's the thinking involved. It's shameful and sick but it's real.
One thing has to be clear here--satan knows God is real, but the men following satan don't. They are just looking for an easy vehicle to power, and, for that, they have sold their souls.
Matthew 16
26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 04, 2008, 02:15:13 PM
The problem some people have when it comes verses like these is that they have trouble distinguishing poetic language from literal language. When they see something like:
If taken literaly then it also means hell is not creted for mankind....
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 04, 2008, 03:01:11 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 04, 2008, 02:15:13 PM
The problem some people have when it comes verses like these is that they have trouble distinguishing poetic language from literal language. When they see something like:
If taken literaly then it also means hell is not creted for mankind....
Hell was created for satan and his angels. Angels can be men.
Matthew 25:41 is the verse you all are looking for. Devil there is literally "traducer" and angels are "messengers". It's so hard not to default back to the things ingrained in us and not automatically picture this evil being and 1/3 of heaven's fallen army at his side . . .but that's a misconception of truth.
for one, if hell is for the devil . . . as we've been taught, who was it that was tempting Jesus? Why doesn't he "stay" in hell? And how then can this "hell" be thrown into the lake of fire in the end?
Unless it's not speaking about the kind of hell our ancestors have taught us. Perhaps this hell brings us back to the consuming fire of God to our traducing minds and the messages our mind births out. Which would then lead you to the fact that even Jesus had a carnal mind that would tempt him but he took captive those thoughts and returned in power to complete the will of the Father for us, and in us.
Quotefor one, if hell is for the devil . . . as we've been taught, who was it that was tempting Jesus? Why doesn't he "stay" in hell?
Hell is just prepared. That doesn't mean it's in use yet.
QuoteHell was created for satan and his angels. Angels can be men.
Matthew 8:28-29 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
This verse speaks of several devils. Strong translates devils in this verse as 'under control of a demon'
So those devils/demons must be part of the messenger/angel catagory then.
Humans do not have the power to possess others.
Ok it could be argued that demons and mankind both are a sub-groups of angels.
But then what is the whole creation in Genesis about?
That seems to tell God created men out of mud. That was not enough so He blew His life into that mud.
Why was that needed if the angels already where alive?
"The first Adam" seems to the beginning of a part of creattion that never existed before.
And even if that group was/is nothing more than a converted (fallen) angel sub-group God choose to give that group a whole new name.
Why speak throughout the Bible about mankind/children clearly meaning the 'Adam group' and then suddenly confuse things by putting the Adams in another group. Why not put the demons in the Adam group. The Adam group certainly is the most mentioned group in the Bible.
:2c:
1And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
--Gen 19
Angels eat?
"angel"
H4397
מלאך
mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.
An angel is also an ambassador--
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
--Eph 6
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:11:13 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 04, 2008, 01:50:59 PM
Except that nowhere in scripture is the devil called a fallen angel, and so this simply says that the 'adversary' has 'messengers'.
Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Neither the "devil"
nor "satan"
nor "angel" ...is mentioned in this quoted passage... :dontknow:
The CONTEXT mentions the King of Babylon as the one addressed, not the "devil"... :yes:
peacE...
willieH :angel5:
willieH: Hi brother B... :hithere:
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 04, 2008, 02:15:13 PM
Ezek 28:2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.
The problem some people have when it comes verses like these is that they have trouble distinguishing poetic language from literal language. When they see something like:
Ezek 28:14-15 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
They jump from the subject previously defined (that being Tyre) to a literalistic definition of a guardian cherub. They think the answer must be "It's Satan". But then the literalistic approach falls apart in the next verse:
Ezek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
It no longer works to say that Satan was expelled from heaven because of his widespread trade and violence. In context it is impossible to make these verses refer to Satan. There are no Biblical statements which identify Satan as a guardian cherub, that is only a result of the reader inserting their preconceived ideas into the verse.
The chapters around the references used by those who support the Lucifer myth (in both Isaiah and Ezekiel) are prophecies dealing with other nations. Many with the same kind of poetic language. For instance:
Ezek 31:2-9 "Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his hordes: "'Who can be compared with you in majesty? 3 Consider Assyria, once a cedar in Lebanon, with beautiful branches overshadowing the forest; it towered on high, its top above the thick foliage...8 The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it, nor could the pine trees equal its boughs, nor could the plane trees compare with its branches-- no tree in the garden of God could match its beauty. 9 I made it beautiful with abundant branches, the envy of all the trees of Eden in the garden of God. (NIV)
Now maybe one could read these verses and say that again we have a reference to Satan. But that kind of creative exegesis would just lead to other problems - such as who are those which envy the mighty tree in Eden.
Now when the above information is presented someone may say "yes the prophecy is about Babylon or Tyre but it is also about the power which is behind their kingdoms, and that is Satan". But should we ignore all we know about Biblical interpretation so that we can keep a myth about Lucifer that no one prior to the second century had any idea of? A myth which no New Testament author even vaguely referred too?
Some supporters of the Lucifer myth point these verses in Isaiah 14:
You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (NIV)
It is suggested that this is referencing Satan since these ambitions clearly exceed the reach of any human ruler. But of course - they exceed the reach of Satan also. Besides, delusions of grandeur are not uncommon among earthly rulers. We must remember that these and other verses are filled with poetic language.
Wow Byron! I'm impressed! Well done! :goodpost:
Nice research and well noted! :bigGrin:
peacE...
willieH :angel5:
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 08:09:28 PM
Angels eat?
I honestly don't know.
I think they do not need to eat to survive but can eat if that pleasures them.....?
Genesis 19:13 For we (=angels) will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
In verse 13 the angels say they are going to destroy the city.
In verse 24 God is doing the destruction. Or should I simply read "angels by the command/authority of God"
Do humans have the skills to make it rain fire and brimstone?
Do angles have that skill?
Where it humans given special skills for this task?
The angels are real messengers. They have come with the purpose to tell when exactly the destruction takes place. That info come from God Himself ofcourse.
When Jesus is born there are also angels. They also come with a clear message concerning the birth of Jesus.
Nine months before there was also an angel that came to foretell the Holy pregnacy.
What I'm trying to say here is that whenever I see the word angel in the Bible an important message is 'carried' from Father to humankind.
But if humankind are angels too; what is their message? Most of are deaf and blind to the word/excistance of Father/Son/HS
QuoteDo angels eat?
Of course, angel food cake.
Quote from: WWIn verse 24 God is doing the destruction. Or should I simply read "angels by the command/authority of God"
Do humans have the skills to make it rain fire and brimstone?
Do angles have that skill?
I don't know. Get on my bad side and find out. :gangel:
Regarding the 'we,' I think of it more as the 'ĕlôhîym, or all those who are in alignment with God's will.
These angels["men"] do have some special powers of their own, though. They are able to blind the evil men trying to jump their bones.
10But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. --Gen 19
Now pass the cake.
Okay, that hit my funny bone when I saw it.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
Money is the root of all evil.
The Bible doesn't say from cover to cover that money is the root of all evil. It says that the love of money. You can commit that sin without a dime in your pocket! It's either the Amplified Bible, or I'll have to find the particular translation later, but there's one of the mainstream translations that'll insert as a parenthetical statement that a wrong relationship to the material realm is the root of all evil. Materialism isn't having a lot of things. The most materialistic people I've ever known lived on the streets and barely had their entire body clothed. Materialism is an attempt to use a material object or service to meet a spiritual need. A lot of people pray materialistic prayers to get a spouse rather than spiritual prayers to get a spouse, and then wonder through their tears and amazement at their heavenly Father just letting them sit there and sulk for 55 years with no one in their lives. Money is absolutely wonderful. It's one of the easiest and best ways to serve God when you've got Scriptural priorities. You absolutely can't obey half of what Jesus taught without it. Jesus presupposed heirs of the Abrahamic Covenant and all of it's benefits in what He taught.
If someone wants your coat, let 'em have that Brioni vest as well!
When you have a party, get the whole neighborhood in there and make sure that the street folks are included!
When I was naked, you clothed Me. When I was in prison, you visited Me (by implication, you didn't let distance be a barrier to that when you knew I had a need).
Go into all of the world and preach the Gospel and make disciples of all nations. (You need your own jet in today's world for that to avoid losing your clothes half the time, to reach more destinations since airlines don't go anywhere any more, and 'cause it's cheaper than flying the commercial taverns.)
Whoever gives a cup of water, even if only in the name of a disciple won't lose their reward.
I could go on. It's blasphemy to say that God created nice things for the devil's crowd. Money is sanctified by the Word and prayer. And Christ went to the Cross to cover every area of our lives, spirit, soul, body....and financial (2Corinthians 8:9 must be read in the context of the chapter that it's in and in the context of the following chapter. The context of 2Corinthians 8:9 is the receiving of an offering.) For a second witness on 2Corinthians 8:9 consider the 54th chapter of Isaiah immediately following the 53rd chapter.
If money is sinful here, then it's sinful in heaven and God's the biggest sinner of all for making streets several feet thick out of gold of the highest quality.
It says in Job, Ecclesiastes, James 5, and several other places that God has the wicked gathering it together so that He can give it to the righteous. The financial revival in the Scriptures always precedes the revelation of the Universal Restoration. That's it's Biblical chronology. That follows the patterns of Scripture even over into what I've been studying out of the 7th letter of the book of Revelation corresponding with the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th bowl. We have a better covenant established upon better promises than the one that said what it said in Deuteronomy 8:18. Deuteronomy 8:18 is God's pattern: power to get wealth, then the Covenant's established in the earth. The wealth wasn't created for gangsters and we're not the godlier for not having it. Psalm 112 is the Biblical profile of the rich and righteous. Jesus intended to make that rich young ruler wealthier than Solomon, but he walked away....but,
Barnabas eventually caught on and history says he was the prosperity preacher of their day. Constantine introduced poverty [and vows of poverty] to the Church, not Jesus.
That was a great post, Martin. You should keep writing on that. You're presenting it in a way that I've never heard before.
Yes, I understand, it's a matter of who your master is, though. And for far too many, it's money [which they equate with power].
Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
I was not sure if this is a verse either. Its just that sometimes when I talk to fellow believers who also believe in ET, and the topic of hell comes up this will be talked about. For example when the topic is about "God not being willing that any should perish" for example. They will then say, God didn't even create hell for people, its for the devil and other fallen angels. Sort of an attempt to make people feel better about hell and to make God look better or something.
Quote from: martincisneros on November 05, 2008, 02:04:39 AM
Okay, that hit my funny bone when I saw it.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
Money is the root of all evil.
The Bible doesn't say from cover to cover that money is the root of all evil. It says that the love of money.
This is another literalists KJV reading as loving money is NOT the root of all evil which should be obvious if you think it through. A better rendering in our language would simply be "Loving money leads to all kinds of trouble". Does anyone really think Adam and Eve wanted a bunch of money? Is that what the serpent tempted them with? Sheeesh!
As far as the "love" of money goes, there's nothing wrong with loving prosperity, as God wills us to do so.
I do believe the word "love" in that verse is in the essence of "worship". One who "loves money" to the point where it becomes the root of all evil, actually makes it his god. In fact, it would be the worship of Mammon, which Jesus said that one could not worship simultaneously with God.
BTW the word "evil" comes from the German "ubel", which literally means "uppity", or even "stuck up", or pehaps even "proud". Today we have given that word a more diabolical and sinister definition than it once had. So therefore the love of money would definitely make one "stuck up" or even proud. And of course the rich can influence people with it by exploiting the basic needs of the poor.
Chuck
Again though - the Greek "evil" in this verse (Kakos) just means "bad" as in troublesome, injurious, pernicious, destructive, baneful. So again "The love of money is the cause of all sorts of calamity". It's so simple (as is the "Lucifer" passage) but for some reason people take a simple verse and make it a sweeping all encompassing literal description for the actual "cause of all evil" in the world. Absolutely that is just false, that's not what it says. It just says if you covet you will "pierce yourselves through with many sorrows". :sigh:
If money was/is the root of evil God wouldn't have blessed so many of the 'good guys' in the Bible with large wealth...
I have a study i have been working on for sometime.
The chronology of the adversary.
I don't know where the inspiration came from.
Please keep in mind i am not a scholar.
Would it fit in this thread.?
"the greatest compliment you can give satan, is, he does not exist!." paraphrased.
Live spelled backward.
k
Kevin,
I have no idea it fits here because I don't know the contents.
In this thread or another thread.... I would like to read it.
I think there is an ever greater comment for satan.
He exits and steals 95% of the souls out of teh hands of Father/Son/HS and they can do nothing to stop him. => ET
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 05, 2008, 01:35:33 PM
Again though - the Greek "evil" in this verse (Kakos) just means "bad" as in troublesome, injurious, pernicious, destructive, baneful. So again "The love of money is the cause of all sorts of calamity". It's so simple (as is the "Lucifer" passage) but for some reason people take a simple verse and make it a sweeping all encompassing literal description for the actual "cause of all evil" in the world. Absolutely that is just false, that's not what it says. It just says if you covet you will "pierce yourselves through with many sorrows". :sigh:
Byron,
You're right about the Greek word "kakos" meaning destructive, etc. That it's translated "evil" is arbitrary, like I said, evil eventually took on that kind of definition, quite possibly as a slang use of the word. Much in the same way "gehenna" has been translated as "hell". "Kakos" should no doubt be translated as "diabolical", or like you said, "destructive".
Click on the link below to see Gary's article on the Etymology of the word "Evil".
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-EtymologyOfTheWordEvil.html (http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-EtymologyOfTheWordEvil.html)
I can think of many English words that took on new meanings in the last century, even though those meanings don't comply with the word's etymology. "Queer" is one word that comes to mind here. Originally it merely meant "odd" or even "peculiar", without the homosexual connotations that it has today.
Gary does have a teaching on the modern use of English words that in old times were not used by the definitions that they are used today.
Chuck
Quote from: ChuckK3 on November 05, 2008, 07:52:13 PM
Gary does have a teaching on the modern use of English words that in old times were not used by the definitions that they are used today.
Do you have link to that document? Or a name?
BTW Kakos is also an evil giant from Greek mythology:
http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GiganteKakos.html
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 05, 2008, 08:04:22 PM
Quote from: ChuckK3 on November 05, 2008, 07:52:13 PM
Gary does have a teaching on the modern use of English words that in old times were not used by the definitions that they are used today.
Do you have link to that document? Or a name?
BTW Kakos is also an evil giant from Greek mythology:
http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GiganteKakos.html
White Wings,
Go to the Tentmaker bookstore. There are a lot of teachings on cassette tapes or CD.
The teachings I have in mind you might want to check out are:
A Bible Study
A Word About The Word
Bible Problems
Bible Translations
English Bible History
There's also an MP3 CD with just about all of Gary's teachings for the same price as about 5 cassettes.
Chuck
Quote from: Kevin on November 05, 2008, 07:27:53 PM
I have a study i have been working on for sometime.
The chronology of the adversary.
I don't know where the inspiration came from.
Please keep in mind i am not a scholar.
Would it fit in this thread.?
"the greatest compliment you can give satan, is, he does not exist!." paraphrased.
Live spelled backward.
k
I'd like to see it Kevin. Please post it.
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 05, 2008, 01:35:33 PM
Again though - the Greek "evil" in this verse (Kakos) just means "bad" as in troublesome, injurious, pernicious, destructive, baneful. So again "The love of money is the cause of all sorts of calamity". It's so simple (as is the "Lucifer" passage) but for some reason people take a simple verse and make it a sweeping all encompassing literal description for the actual "cause of all evil" in the world. Absolutely that is just false, that's not what it says. It just says if you covet you will "pierce yourselves through with many sorrows". :sigh:
What if your love of money is causing that kind of calamity on others? For instance,what if you are starting wars which are going to kill people and destroy their lives just so you can be richer? Isn't that the very definition of evil?
willieH: Hi Kevin... Welcome to TM :welcome:
Quote from: Kevin on November 05, 2008, 07:27:53 PM
"the greatest compliment you can give satan, is, he does not exist!." paraphrased.
Live spelled backward.
k
I don't think anyone can Biblically argue that "satan" doesn't exist... the thing that CAN be argued is "what" ..."satan"... actually ...
IS...
In ENGLISH, the word "LIVE" is coincidently "EVIL" spelled backward... But this is not prevalent in and amongst the myriads of other languages on the Earth...
Much as the ENGLISH word "DOG" is "GOD" spelled backwards, ...is hardly SPIRITUALLY significant... :dontknow:
Or that "WOW" is "MOM" ...upside down - eh? ... :laughing7:
peacE...
willieH :angel5:
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2008, 03:33:17 AM
Quote from: Kevin on November 05, 2008, 07:27:53 PM
I have a study i have been working on for sometime.
The chronology of the adversary.
I don't know where the inspiration came from.
Please keep in mind i am not a scholar.
Would it fit in this thread.?
"the greatest compliment you can give satan, is, he does not exist!." paraphrased.
Live spelled backward.
k
I'd like to see it Kevin. Please post it.
Me too! I'd love to see this study of yours on the "chronology of the Adversary", Kevin... :dontknow:
peacE...
willieH :angel5:
Quote from: ChuckK3 on November 05, 2008, 07:52:13 PM
Click on the link below to see Gary's article on the Etymology of the word "Evil".
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-EtymologyOfTheWordEvil.html (http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-EtymologyOfTheWordEvil.html)
I can think of many English words that took on new meanings in the last century, even though those meanings don't comply with the word's etymology. "Queer" is one word that comes to mind here. Originally it merely meant "odd" or even "peculiar", without the homosexual connotations that it has today.
Gary does have a teaching on the modern use of English words that in old times were not used by the definitions that they are used today.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: firstbornHelel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
And what exactly do you think the religion of satan is?
What do you think it is?
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
Remember the head of the horrible statue in Daniel 2? The head represented Babylon--the mind of satan. The Babylonian religion is alive and well to this day.
But satan is not the formal name of any person. It's just a term which means adversary. People are called "adversaries" throughout scripture - including Peter. It's the exact same word. It just means 'opposer'.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
Do you really think some random man, even a king, can lay low the nations? Nations is translated 'gentiles.'
So are the gentiles laid low because of a man or because of a dark spiritual force?
World conquering nations are not random men or Kings. The most high gives domination to whosoever He wills and trust me - history has proven they indeed laid low all the other nations. Remember Rome? That big gold headed dude is not and entity named 'opposer'. "He" represents the four world dominating Kingdoms.
Quote from: firstbornEzek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
And exactly how do you think satan operates in this world? Remember Jesus and the moneychangers? What are we told? Money is the root of all evil. The root of our tree is Christ. But the root of this tree is satan, represented by his spiritual currency--money.
If this is referring to the
pre-Adamic, prehistoric first sin/rebellion in 'heaven' then who is 'satan' trading with? Is he dealing drugs to rebellious angels/future demons? Are they beating up the good angels for interfering? ("you were filled with violence")? I'm not following your reasoning about this.
Quote from: firstbornso that we can keep a myth about Lucifer that no one prior to the second century had any idea of? A myth which no New Testament author even vaguely referred too?
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
When did satan become a myth? I must have missed that, especially because he becomes more apparent in the world every day. Wait till you see what's coming next! He'll make a believer of you, yet.
I believe there are many adversaries in the world. Which "he" (adversary) are you referring to?
Quote from: firstbornYou said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (NIV)
It is suggested that this is referencing Satan since these ambitions clearly exceed the reach of any human ruler. But of course - they exceed the reach of Satan also. Besides, delusions of grandeur are not uncommon among earthly rulers. We must remember that these and other verses are filled with poetic language.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
Making himself like the Most High, making himself higher than God, --this is exactly what satan hopes to achieve. And, he inspires his followers to think they can achieve this, too.
...ye shall be as gods...
But, it takes a rebellion to be as gods, and, if the rebellion succeeds, you are now higher than God because you've beaten him. That's the thinking involved. It's shameful and sick but it's real.
Jesus said "You are gods" no rebellion needed. It was king Nebuchadnezzar who said "Look at this mighty kingdom I have built for my glory by my power". God's response is basically "No, I give it to whomsoever I will".
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
One thing has to be clear here--satan knows God is real, but the men following satan don't. They are just looking for an easy vehicle to power, and, for that, they have sold their souls.
Matthew 16
26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Sounds like more western folklore. Where in scripture does anyone 'sell their soul to the devil'?
willieH: Hi Byron! :cloud9:
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 06, 2008, 02:44:21 PM
Quote from: firstbornHelel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
And what exactly do you think the religion of satan is?
What do you think it is?
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
Remember the head of the horrible statue in Daniel 2? The head represented Babylon--the mind of satan. The Babylonian religion is alive and well to this day.
But satan is not the formal name of any person. It's just a term which means adversary. People are called "adversaries" throughout scripture - including Peter. It's the exact same word. It just means 'opposer'.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
Do you really think some random man, even a king, can lay low the nations? Nations is translated 'gentiles.'
So are the gentiles laid low because of a man or because of a dark spiritual force?
World conquering nations are not random men or Kings. The most high gives domination to whosoever He wills and trust me - history has proven they indeed laid low all the other nations. Remember Rome? That big gold headed dude is not and entity named 'opposer'. "He" represents the four world dominating Kingdoms.
Quote from: firstbornEzek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
And exactly how do you think satan operates in this world? Remember Jesus and the moneychangers? What are we told? Money is the root of all evil. The root of our tree is Christ. But the root of this tree is satan, represented by his spiritual currency--money.
If this is referring to the pre-Adamic, prehistoric first sin/rebellion in 'heaven' then who is 'satan' trading with? Is he dealing drugs to rebellious angels/future demons? Are they beating up the good angels for interfering? ("you were filled with violence")? I'm not following your reasoning about this.
Quote from: firstbornso that we can keep a myth about Lucifer that no one prior to the second century had any idea of? A myth which no New Testament author even vaguely referred too?
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
When did satan become a myth? I must have missed that, especially because he becomes more apparent in the world every day. Wait till you see what's coming next! He'll make a believer of you, yet.
I believe there are many adversaries in the world. Which "he" (adversary) are you referring to?
Quote from: firstbornYou said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (NIV)
It is suggested that this is referencing Satan since these ambitions clearly exceed the reach of any human ruler. But of course - they exceed the reach of Satan also. Besides, delusions of grandeur are not uncommon among earthly rulers. We must remember that these and other verses are filled with poetic language.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
Making himself like the Most High, making himself higher than God, --this is exactly what satan hopes to achieve. And, he inspires his followers to think they can achieve this, too.
...ye shall be as gods...
But, it takes a rebellion to be as gods, and, if the rebellion succeeds, you are now higher than God because you've beaten him. That's the thinking involved. It's shameful and sick but it's real.
Jesus said "You are gods" no rebellion needed. It was king Nebuchadnezzar who said "Look at this mighty kingdom I have built for my glory by my power". God's response is basically "No, I give it to whomsoever I will".
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2008, 02:58:39 PM
One thing has to be clear here--satan knows God is real, but the men following satan don't. They are just looking for an easy vehicle to power, and, for that, they have sold their souls.
Matthew 16
26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Sounds like more western folklore. Where in scripture does anyone 'sell their soul to the devil'?
:goodpost: Brother B... I enjoyed it thoroughly! :happyclap:
QuoteBut satan is not the formal name of any person. It's just a term which means adversary. People are called "adversaries" throughout scripture - including Peter. It's the exact same word. It just means 'opposer'
Jesus isn't calling Peter 'satan.' Jesus is speaking to a spirit that is speaking through Peter, just as he spoke to demons within people directly before he exorcised them. Satan can enter into men and speak through them. The spirit, the demon, is not the man.
QuoteJesus said "You are gods" no rebellion needed. It was king Nebuchadnezzar who said "Look at this mighty kingdom I have built for my glory by my power". God's response is basically "No, I give it to whomsoever I will".
The rebellion happened in the garden, and then, they were kicked out of the garden, lest they live forever.
But once outside, the rebellion continues, which god will you serve? Will you serve God or mammon?
QuoteSounds like more western folklore. Where in scripture does anyone 'sell their soul to the devil'?
Satan offers Jesus the whole world if only he will bow down and worship him. That is a transaction being offered. You buy the world with your soul. You get the world but satan gets your worship and your soul. So how do you profit? Jesus asks. Some variation of that transaction is offered to men every day of the week.
QuoteWorld conquering nations are not random men or Kings. The most high gives domination to whosoever He wills and trust me - history has proven they indeed laid low all the other nations. Remember Rome? That big gold headed dude is not and entity named 'opposer'. "He" represents the four world dominating Kingdoms.
The important thing about that horrible image of a man in Daniel 2 is that it is one body. It has head, chest, loins, arms, legs--and it represents one.
The head of gold is Babylon. Babylon never went away. It is the head of the horrible image. It is the mind of satan. The last kingdom, Rome, never went away. It is still here with us with feet that are part iron and part clay.
That is the enemy. The image of a man enervated by the power of satan, acting as one body.
It has no redemptive qualities and is fitted for total destruction.
But we have the mind of Christ.
QuoteBut satan is not the formal name of any person. It's just a term which means adversary. People are called "adversaries" throughout scripture - including Peter. It's the exact same word. It just means 'opposer'
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2008, 12:57:16 AM
Jesus isn't calling Peter 'satan.' Jesus is speaking to a spirit that is speaking through Peter, just as he spoke to demons within people directly before he exorcised them. Satan can enter into men and speak through them. The spirit, the demon, is not the man.
Peter had a carnal mindset (a goal of preserving Jesus' physical life) and so was operating as an adversary to God's plan. That's the reality of it. If you believe that Peter became demon possessed for that moment, I guess that's your right to do so. Men are called 'adversary' in many places and it's the same word translated 'satan' in other places. It's a case where church tradition has created an entire culture based on a faulty premise.
QuoteJesus said "You are gods" no rebellion needed. It was king Nebuchadnezzar who said "Look at this mighty kingdom I have built for my glory by my power". God's response is basically "No, I give it to whomsoever I will".
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2008, 12:57:16 AM
The rebellion happened in the garden, and then, they were kicked out of the garden, lest they live forever.
I was addressing 'Lucifer's fall' and so you must believe in a pre-garden rebellion in 'heaven' by a great arcangel named satan, right? My question is - how did he become prideful and corrupt through widespread trade and violence in heaven? That doesn't make any sense. It was the Babylonian king who said "I will be like the most high" a sentiment similar to Nebuchadnezzar's. The Isaiah and Ezek. passages have nothing to do with a fallen arcangel except in church tradition.
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2008, 12:57:16 AM
But once outside, the rebellion continues, which god will you serve? Will you serve God or mammon?
So I was right! Eve did it for the money :sigh:
QuoteSounds like more western folklore. Where in scripture does anyone 'sell their soul to the devil'?
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2008, 12:57:16 AM
Satan offers Jesus the whole world if only he will bow down and worship him. That is a transaction being offered. You buy the world with your soul. You get the world but satan gets your worship and your soul. So how do you profit? Jesus asks. Some variation of that transaction is offered to men every day of the week.
Daniel 10:17 Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation. 18 O thou king,
the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour: 19 And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him: whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down. 20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, F46 he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him
Evil, carnal (ie: satanic/adversarial) thoughts lie and promise you the world, but they can't deliver! See the above for the ID of the ONLY one who has that ability and power. Don't believe the father of lies when he promises something :happygrin: (It's most likely a lie)
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 05, 2008, 01:52:47 PM
If money was/is the root of evil God wouldn't have blessed so many of the 'good guys' in the Bible with large wealth...
You are correct! It is a fact that people are ignorant when they confess that money is the root of evil.
In fact, it is the love of 'fill in the blank if it is not God' is the root of all evil. Money can be and has been idol for many, and they fear unjustly having it because they are unaware or fearful of their attachment to it because some wingnut or corrupt wealthy individual who just wants to steal from them, that "money is the root of all evil."
That means, we can be good stewards of worldly wealth without ever loving it or having it be our master. For those who are faithful, He blesses with much. It sure is a blessing from God to be wealthy in everything, because every good and perfect gift comes from our Father.
Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:52:04 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 05, 2008, 01:52:47 PM
If money was/is the root of evil God wouldn't have blessed so many of the 'good guys' in the Bible with large wealth...
You are correct! It is a fact that people are ignorant when they confess that money is the root of evil.
In fact, it is the love of 'fill in the blank if it is not God' is the root of all evil. Money can be and has been idol for many, and they fear unjustly having it because they are unaware or fearful of their attachment to it because some wingnut or corrupt wealthy individual who just wants to steal from them, that "money is the root of all evil."
That means, we can be good stewards of worldly wealth without ever loving it or having it be our master. For those who are faithful, He blesses with much. It sure is a blessing from God to be wealthy in everything, because every good and perfect gift comes from our Father.
1And it shall come to pass,
if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
2And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
3Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
4Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
5Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
6Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
7The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
8The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
9The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.
10And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.
11And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
12The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
13And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:
14And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
15
But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
16Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field...
--Deut 28
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 08, 2008, 02:51:23 AM
Men are called 'adversary' in many places and it's the same word translated 'satan' in other places.
I checked some verses.
When the root word is translated "The advesary" it always seems to point to Satan, Devil, Superhuman
Without the word "the" it points towards a human unless the verse context show different. => 1 Peter 5:8
Quote<4567> Satana/j (Satanas)
Meaning: the adversary, Satan, i.e. the devil
Origin: of Heb. or. 7854
Usage: Satan(35), Satan's(1).
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
2 Thessalonians 2:9 hat is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
Quote<476> avnti,dikoj (antidikos)
Meaning: an opponent, adversary
Origin: from 473 and 1349
Usage: adversary(1), opponent(3), opponent at law(1).
Lamentations 4:12 The kings of the earth did not believe, Nor did any of the inhabitants of the world, That the adversary and the enemy Could enter the gates of Jerusalem.
Psalm 108:12 Oh give us help against the adversary, For deliverance by man is in vain.
Quote<07854> !j'f' (satan) (966b)
Meaning: adversary, also the name of the superhuman adversary of God
Origin: of unc. der.
Usage: accuser(m)(1), adversary(8), Satan(18).
1 Kings 11:14 Then the LORD raised up an adversary to Solomon, Hadad the Edomite; he was of the royal line in Edom.
2 Samuel 19:22 David then said, "What have I to do with you, O sons of Zeruiah, that you should this day be an adversary to me?
1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Quote<06696b> rWc (tsur) (849a)
Meaning: to show hostility to, treat as foe
Origin: a prim. root
Usage: adversary(1), attack(1), harass(2).
Exodus 23:22 .... then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
QuoteSo I was right! Eve did it for the money
Eve did it for whatever advantage satan was offering her at the time--
ye shall be as gods.That sounds good to her--but God has already told Adam, and Adam has told her, that they will die in the day they eat from that tree--and she chooses to listen to the lies of satan, instead.
Do you really think Eve got this idea about being as gods out of her own head? Where would she get that understanding herself? She was totally clueless and deceived. But, that part was true. The problem was the price that would have to be paid for that was too high--death.
QuoteSounds like more western folklore. Where in scripture does anyone 'sell their soul to the devil'?
That is the deal that satan makes--all of this [world] will be yours if you will only bow down and worship me. Bowing down to satan is losing your soul. Jesus asks, What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? So it is a type of transaction--your soul for the world.
QuotePeter had a carnal mindset (a goal of preserving Jesus' physical life) and so was operating as an adversary to God's plan. That's the reality of it. If you believe that Peter became demon possessed for that moment, I guess that's your right to do so. Men are called 'adversary' in many places and it's the same word translated 'satan' in other places. It's a case where church tradition has created an entire culture based on a faulty premise.
There are other cases where Peter acts in opposition to Jesus, but Jesus does not call him 'satan.' Peter denies Jesus (satan is going to sift you). Peter cuts off the ear of the centurion--Jesus reverses the action by healing it. But only once does Jesus call Peter 'satan'---and that is when satan speaks through Peter to tempt Christ not to go to the cross. Jesus is not speaking to Peter, he's speaking to Satan.
21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. --Mat 16
This is a spirit which is entering Peter, as it entered Judas later.
3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.--Luke 22
From Kevin:
At this time I believe satan, adversary, etc. is a spirit, and not a physical being.?
A spirit that can influence, take over a being, a human for a time.
I am not getting stuck on the translation or the word description or the O.T or N.T. examples.
And I do not doubt is a hierarchy, a leader, and the followers in this principality.
That being said, written,
In concept, how does the members of the forum see this question:
Is this a spirit, or a being?
In the "keep it simple" mode:
Kevin
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2008, 01:10:24 PM
QuotePeter had a carnal mindset (a goal of preserving Jesus' physical life) and so was operating as an adversary to God's plan. That's the reality of it. If you believe that Peter became demon possessed for that moment, I guess that's your right to do so. Men are called 'adversary' in many places and it's the same word translated 'satan' in other places. It's a case where church tradition has created an entire culture based on a faulty premise.
Quote23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. [/i]
--Mat 16
This is a spirit which is entering Peter, as it entered Judas later.
3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
--Luke 22
Quote from: Kevin on November 08, 2008, 07:08:26 PM
From Kevin:
At this time I believe satan, adversary, etc. is a spirit, and not a physical being.?
A spirit that can influence, take over a being, a human for a time.
I am not getting stuck on the translation or the word description or the O.T or N.T. examples.
And I do not doubt is a hierarchy, a leader, and the followers in this principality.
That being said, written,
In concept, how does the members of the forum see this question:
Is this a spirit, or a being?
In the "keep it simple" mode:
Kevin
When this subject comes up (satan) I like to shoot down the obvious myths, the fallen angel concept ect. When we understand that the serpent was created by God for His purpose then I believe we are much closer to the truth than the 'great rebellion in heaven' theory. It's important to UR doctrine because "satan's" rebellion in heaven is really at the heart ET doctrine.
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 09, 2008, 06:28:37 AM
When this subject comes up (satan) I like to shoot down the obvious myths, the fallen angel concept ect. When we understand that the serpent was created by God for His purpose then I believe we are much closer to the truth than the 'great rebellion in heaven' theory. It's important to UR doctrine because "satan's" rebellion in heaven is really at the heart ET doctrine.
Is it really that simple? Or better said: How can we know?
If the serpent was created for a purpuse (I see some verses pointing toward that) why does that automaticly mean there was no war in heaven?
Perhaps the war in Heaven was just as much predesigned/forseen as the actions of the snake?
That war can have some part in God master plan. Just as an example without the war satan would be alone. But now 1/3 of the angels have (also) fallen.
I'm
not trying to turn this in another "what is an angel" thread.
I'm just trying to explain that perhaps we are given to little info to know. For example teh Bible is mainly about earth. But I think another Bible could be filled with events/information about Heaven.
But with the 1/3 of the angel's thing people take the book of the Revelation and try to apply it to past events to prop up a theory which there is really no basis for. "Heavenlies" = High Places. That's where the conflict was, not in God's perfect transcendent domain.
Heven Strong's Concordance: "Sky",
Me: more than one, level.
Simple: nothing in this forum is., and that is good.
The Spirit of Truth teaches.
I am somewhat sure my head would explode if it was filled with all the answers.
All in due time.
Reminds me, ' I am wandering', this short story is very long, I'll make it very short.
2 times, when in spiritual battle with 2 different people at different times,
they glared that deep evil piercing look, like they really had me cornered, and said,
" Where is your god now"? I did not reply, did not feel I had to,
In my spirit, I heard, " He will be right on time".
k
they glared that deep evil piercing look, like they really had me cornered, and said,
" Where is your god now"? I did not reply, did not feel I had to,
In my spirit, I heard, " He will be right on time".
Later on I saw, heard it in "Megeto", sp.
k
Quote from: Kevin on November 11, 2008, 07:23:15 PM
they glared that deep evil piercing look, like they really had me cornered, and said,
" Where is your god now"? I did not reply, did not feel I had to,
In my spirit, I heard, " He will be right on time".
Later on I saw, heard it in "Megeto", sp.
k
I know that look. I always seem to be caught up in some spiritual battle or another but most times I'm too clueless to even know it until it becomes obvious. And, that's the way it becomes obvious--that 'deep evil piercing look.' Then, I am whoa! where did that come from? lol
Tell us more, Kevin.
Thanks for the reply,
I have 9 years of this type of stories. This part of my spiritual journey started in 1999. One morning.
I woke up, after a good drunk, early in the morning, something like 4 a.m. And said.
"God I will never turn my back on You, please take everything out of my life that is not You."
Then had 3 more beers, and passed out. I will or can't ever forget that a.m. And
that is where the journey started. And everything I had aquired by deception, world stuff, was taken
out of my life, took 3 years, and I still barely had a clue what was going on!
absolutly everything that was not of God, Jesus, the one and Only Holy Spirit, was taken out of my
life.
Off to Home Depot, gota hole in the back door, dogs dug through it at the abobe, trailer, out on a ranch,
I am temp. staying at. Back in a while.
willieH: Hi Kevin... :hithere:
Quote from: Kevin on November 05, 2008, 07:27:53 PM
I have a study i have been working on for sometime.
The chronology of the adversary.
I don't know where the inspiration came from.
Please keep in mind i am not a scholar.
Would it fit in this thread.?
"the greatest compliment you can give satan, is, he does not exist!." paraphrased.
Live spelled backward.
k
Hey Kevin... are you going to post your "chronology of the Adversary" study? I'm really curious about your take on this subject! :JCThink:
peacE...
willieH :drummer: