Author Topic: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill  (Read 1704 times)

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Offline JulieTang84

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Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« on: November 25, 2013, 02:22:13 AM »
Thou Shall Not Kill

The sixth of the ten commandments in the King James Version reads, "Thou shall not kill." whereas, the New International Version translates it, "Thou shall not murder."

Clearly there is  difference between premeditated murder and killing someone in self defense and Scripture supports this because, neither accidental killing (Numbers 35:22-25) nor justifiable homicide (Ex. 22:2) are a breaking of the sixth commandment. Neither killing in war nor capital punishment are necessarily forbidden in this commandment since God required both in certain cases (Ex.21:12).

The following Scripture uses both MURDER and SLAY and different words pertain to both:

Num 35:19
The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer:  Strongs h7523 רָצַח  ratsach   when he meeteth him, he shall slay:  Strongs  h4191  מוּת    muwth him.

So which Hebrew word is used in Exodus 20:13?

Thou shalt not  kill.  Strongs h7523 רָצַח ratsach

We can see that the Hebrew word 'ratsach' matches the SAME word used for MURDER in Numbers 35:19

So the actual translation fitting the context is, "You shall not murder."

Both Jesus and John the Baptist never condemned the Centurion or the Soldier for carrying a sword which may called upon to take a life. In fact Jesus was amazed at the centurions faith.

Mat 8:8
The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.

Mat 8:9
For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

Mat 8:10
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.


Jesus was amazed at the centurions faith, not aghast at his job.

John had a similar opportunity

Luk 3:14
Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely—be content with your pay."


By no means am I saying that killing someone is okay. Life is precious and should be protected at all costs. Sometimes a life might need to be taken in order to save others. Father has made it clear that this is not Murder.

It is my prayer that I never have to take a human life. Father knows that I pray also for the wisdom and strength to do what I must in any situation.

Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2013, 07:42:02 AM »
So the actual translation fitting the context is, "You shall not murder."

Hi Julie,
As we have discussed before, I disagree with your conclusion, though not all of what you say. For example, I do believe "murder" is the right translation. That however, I believe, does not mean that followers of Christ should either kill OR murder their enemies.

Quote
Both Jesus and John the Baptist never condemned the Centurion or the Soldier for carrying a sword which may called upon to take a life. In fact Jesus was amazed at the centurions faith.

Mat 8:8
The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.

Mat 8:9
For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

Mat 8:10
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.


Jesus was amazed at the centurions faith, not aghast at his job.

John had a similar opportunity

Luk 3:14
Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely—be content with your pay."

This is all true. Jesus was not aghast at anything because he had the wisdom of his Father. Those centurions were serving a purpose on earth which was to kill Jesus himself. To kill the innocent Lamb who died for the world. Without the centurions, Jesus would not have died at all.

However, even as centurions exist for their purpose, I believe the Sons of God exist for their purpose. So as Peter was defending Jesus, the Lord told him to put down his sword and not to live by it. I believe that God is setting his people up as an example for the world, not to fit or follow the pattern of that world, even if God USES that world for his own purpose.

That is why I do not believe that Christ's faithful should have any part in war, or capital punishment, or killing people generally. I believe that the hands of the Sons of God should only bring life and light and let God judge the world by the sword if he sees fit.

I am just providing my own outlook on it.

Quote from: JulieTang
By no means am I saying that killing someone is okay.

I totally agree. Although, as we discussed before, God has created the authorities of this world to discipline the ungodly, most severely if necessary, which is why we have armies today. However, I do not engage in the practice because in the scripture we are told to let GOD himself judge the world and let us focus on what is within the faithful.

 :HeartThrob:

Offline JulieTang84

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2013, 03:02:48 PM »
Hi Julie,
As we have discussed before, I disagree with your conclusion, though not all of what you say. For example, I do believe "murder" is the right translation. That however, I believe, does not mean that followers of Christ should either kill OR murder their enemies.

Ahhhh, I see where perhaps the contention is.  :HeartThrob:

I agree with you. We are to LOVE our enemies, not Kill them as you say. I believe whenever emotions such as hate or revenge comes to the fore, then is not any subsequent death more along the lines of murder.

Emotions must be kept out of the picture. Hate most of all. I believe this comes down a conscious heart decision. Freedom is never free and whatever freedom we have to love, live and raise families has been paid for with much blood.

What I have always struggled with is at what cost is a human life. Is it one for one? Like is it fair to take a life to save a life? What about one to ten?  Death should always be the last option, but an option just the same. In such instances, an assailant is not an enemy, just a lost blind soul hell bent on destroying his/her own and taking as many with them as they can. Their act is premeditated. Stopping them with deadly force is not.

Jesus said inasmuch: whatever you do for these little ones you do for me. Could it be at the judgment seat, Jesus will say: Blessed are you whom I gave so little, yet you put your lives on the line daily for the likes of these as he stretches his hand and indicates the masses.

Spiritually speaking though, I believe that total unrestricted, unconditional LOVE  :HeartThrob: will remove the want for destruction more than any threat of retaliation.

Love Julie :HeartThrob:   
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2013, 07:01:10 PM »
Quote from: JulieTang
I agree with you. We are to LOVE our enemies, not Kill them as you say. I believe whenever emotions such as hate or revenge comes to the fore, then is not any subsequent death more along the lines of murder.

Emotions must be kept out of the picture. Hate most of all.

Where we might not be connecting in understanding is the very idea of love and hate. We Westerners have a very emotion based concept of love and hate. To the ancient world, including the NT world of 2,000 years ago, to hate an enemy was a matter of what you DO rather than what you feel.

For example, the John 3:16 verse, when translated correctly says this: "For God, in this way, loved the world: that he gave his only begotten son." Love was in what God DID rather than what he felt. That is how he hated Esau, not in emotional hate, but that he chose Jacob instead.

Hating our enemies is in what we DO to them, including killing them.

Quote from: JulieTang
What I have always struggled with is at what cost is a human life. Is it one for one? Like is it fair to take a life to save a life? What about one to ten?  Death should always be the last option, but an option just the same.

In such instances, an assailant is not an enemy, just a lost blind soul hell bent on destroying his/her own and taking as many with them as they can. Their act is premeditated. Stopping them with deadly force is not.

I think death is not only an option, it is the way of the world. My thoughts on it are that I wish to practice love rather than to bring death. I rather let God judge the world by the authorities he set in place, and devote my hands to a different kind of war: the pulling down of strongholds.

All the things you mentioned above are the world's business and I leave them to it. I would rather, Lord willing, the assailant take me instead. But because I don't know how to use weapons, because I have rejected all instruments of death, I can only leave the world to its devices and focus on a different battlefield.


Quote from: JulieTang
Jesus said inasmuch: whatever you do for these little ones you do for me. Could it be at the judgment seat, Jesus will say: Blessed are you whom I gave so little, yet you put your lives on the line daily for the likes of these as he stretches his hand and indicates the masses.

We can only wonder what he will say. But I do believe that those who live by the sword in hand will be judged by the sword that proceeds from his mouth.

Offline JulieTang84

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2013, 07:29:35 PM »
I agree with all that you said Seth  :friendstu:

What you said about "doing" vs "feeling" was excellent and I have read the likes of this before. Hate in Fathers view is "Loved Less"

Yet, doing is where it is at. The same goes with LOVE. I have no right to say that I  :HeartThrob:  LOVE :HeartThrob:  anyone unless I am prepared to lose my life trying to protect them. I do not believe giving my life as a sacrifice will benefit those left behind; however, if Father will call me home when He wishes.

Father knows me well enough to know that I would / could never forgive myself if anything happened to any whom I love, whilst there is anything that I could have done to prevent their life from being taken. Yes, Loving someone has a HUGE responsibility, one that I have long been acutely aware of.

Jesus gave his life to DEFEAT Satan, not to appease him. One last point. Guns are only as deadly as the person squeezing the trigger. Automobiles kill more people a year many times over than guns. Something as simple as a coffee cup can be deadly in the time of need, just as ones bare hands. If we just stop for a moment and look about us, there are very few things that could not be used with deadly INTENT.

Knowing this is very important as we live in a world that is in a very sorry need of Love  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2013, 07:44:49 PM »
Quote from: JulieTang
Yet, doing is where it is at. The same goes with LOVE. I have no right to say that I  LOVE  anyone unless I am prepared to lose my life trying to protect them.

I do not believe giving my life as a sacrifice will benefit those left behind; however, if Father will call me home when He wishes.


Father knows me well enough to know that I would / could never forgive myself if anything happened to any whom I love, whilst there is anything that I could have done to prevent their life from being taken. Yes, Loving someone has a HUGE responsibility, one that I have long been acutely aware of.


Jesus gave his life to DEFEAT Satan, not to appease him. One last point. Guns are only as deadly as the person squeezing the trigger. Automobiles kill more people a year many times over than guns. Something as simple as a coffee cup can be deadly in the time of need, just as ones bare hands. If we just stop for a moment and look about us, there are very few things that could not be used with deadly INTENT.


Knowing this is very important as we live in a world that is in a very sorry need of Love 

Yes, and my whole message is that we should not love one by hating another. In other words, love your enemies. Meaning, even if you emotionally love them, don't hate them by killing. This is why I let the world be judged by God. He uses the hate of the world to judge the world, and did this all the way through the Bible.

A good example is Nebbuchadnezzar. To judge Israel, God said that the Babylonian king was was his servant, in the sense that Israel would fall into his captivity.

But that doesn't mean I want to BE Nebbuchadnezzar. I'd rather let God use the world to judge the world and keep my hands clean of blood to devote them to works of love instead.

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2013, 08:12:36 PM »
 
  Well said , Seth and agree with you !
  I believe that   though King Nebs     trials and humility  he  learned  to worship God in Spirit and truth after he was changed   and given a heart of a beast to  a clean heart    !
 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour: 


Dan 5:19   And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him: whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down. 

 Dan 5:20   But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him: 


 Dan 5:21   And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.     

 the Lord  does this   to destroy Babylon [pride ] in mankind    I am convinced that King Neb was one of those horns [powers of the beast ]  Kings of the earth   at one time , before God   cut him down and changed his heart
 
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 


 Rev 17:8   The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 
 Rev 17:9   And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 


 Rev 17:10   And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 


 Rev 17:11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 


 Rev 17:12   And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 


 Rev 17:13   These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast


 Rev 17:14   These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 


 Rev 17:15   And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 


 Rev 17:16   And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.    Rev 17:17   For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled


 Rev 17:18   And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. 


 Dan 4:11   The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth: 


 Dan 4:12   The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it. 


 Dan 4:13  I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven; 
 Dan 4:14   He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches: 
 Dan 4:15   Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth: 
 Dan 4:16  Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.  


 Dan 4:17   This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Offline JulieTang84

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2013, 08:14:00 PM »
Yes, and my whole message is that we should not love one by hating another. In other words, love your enemies. Meaning, even if you emotionally love them, don't hate them by killing. This is why I let the world be judged by God. He uses the hate of the world to judge the world, and did this all the way through the Bible.

A good example is Nebbuchadnezzar. To judge Israel, God said that the Babylonian king was was his servant, in the sense that Israel would fall into his captivity.

But that doesn't mean I want to BE Nebbuchadnezzar. I'd rather let God use the world to judge the world and keep my hands clean of blood to devote them to works of love instead.


Wow this is a great baring of souls. Seth we are so close brother.


There is no hate in me whatso ever. I can honestly say this before you and Father. Just Love!!!! 24/7


I cannot love someone more than another spiritually. All are equal. But we must never forget that we are children of LOVE. I liken this to the parable of the talents of Silver. One servant buried his silver in fear of losing it (NOT SAYING THIS IS YOU!!!!!!!!!) Being part of the world in my mind is being totally concerned about one thing and that is SELF. When you give the SELF away, all that is left is LOVE.


Now, should one be so deviod of Love that they choose to destroy as many of Fathers Children (my brothers and sisters) as they can, then this is truly heart-breaking. How could anyone have such a low value of themselves. This is Fathers doing, not mine, but it changes nothing. With all what Father has given me, I MUST stop / prevent in anyway possible up to and including "killing" (but hopefully not) There is no HATE, just a deep sorrow and a much deeper LOVE. A LOVE for the assaliant and for all involved. Father knows my heart well enough to know that I believe every person has a foundation of Christ, no matter how deep it is buried.


This is not an easy subject to discuss, never has been. Once again I will say, I absolutey KNOW that the more love we can put ithe world, the less anger there will be. Darkness has no association with light. I am not a fear full person, in fact I have been called fearless. But LOVE is always the ANSWER, never hate.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2013, 08:39:57 PM »

  Well said , Seth and agree with you !
  I believe that   though King Nebs     trials and humility  he  learned  to worship God in Spirit and truth after he was changed   and given a heart of a beast to  a clean heart    !
 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour: 


Hi Rose, yes exactly!

God is using the world and turning them over to their works to be judged by their own works. But to his Christ followers he is saying: You keep your judgment within the church, I will handle the world.

Christ's followers do make war, but a different kind of war. I don't carry a sword in my hand, but one that proceeds from my mouth. Every time someone sees our words and is set free, we have torn down a stronghold.

Offline JulieTang84

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2013, 09:12:11 PM »

Let's be sure to recognize that all credit goes to Father. The guard thank the Holy Spirit for her strength.


Security Guard calmly takes down gunman at New Life Church

http://wizbangblog.com/content/2007/12/10/security-guard-calmly-takes-down-gunman-at-new-life-church.php
This is an amazing article about the security guard who took out the gunman at New Life Church in Colorado Springs yesterday. While the other two guards stood with their guns drawn, frozen, it was Jeanne Assam who calmly took control of the situation and killed the gunman, preventing him from killing countless others. From the Denver Post:

Larry Bourbonnais, a combat-tested Vietnam veteran, said it was the bravest thing he's ever seen.Bourbonnais, who was among those shot by a gunman Sunday at New Life Church, watched as a security guard, a woman later identified as Jeanne Assam, calmly returned fire and killed the shooter.

"She just started walking toward the gunman firing the whole way," said Bourbonnais, who was shot in the arm. "She was just yelling 'Surrender,' walking and shooting the whole time."

Bourbonnais, 59, had just finished up a hamburger in the cafeteria on the sprawling church campus when he heard gunfire, he recalled.

He headed in the direction of the shots as frightened people ran past him looking to escape to safety.

"Where's the shooter? Where's the shooter?" Bourbonnais kept yelling, he recalled.

Near an entryway in the church, Bourbonnais came upon the gunman and an armed male church security guard who was there with his gun drawn but not firing, he said.

Bourbonnais said he pleaded with the armed guard to give him his weapon.

"Give me your handgun. I've been in combat, and I'm going to take this guy out," Bourbonnais recalled telling the guard. "He kept yelling, 'Get behind me! Get behind me!' He wouldn't hand me his weapon, but he wouldn't do anything."

There was an additional armed security guard there, another man, who also didn't fire, Bourbonnais said.

...Assam, 42, turned a corner with a drawn handgun, walked toward the gunman and yelled "Surrender!" Bourbonnais said.

The gunman pointed a handgun at Assam and fired three shots, Bourbonnais said. She returned fire and just kept walking toward the gunman pressing off round after round.

After the gunman went down, Bourbonnais asked the Assam, a volunteer security guard with the church, how she remained so calm and focused.

Bourbonnais said she replied:
"I was asking the Holy Spirit to guide me the entire time."



Father was with her the whole way, giving her the strength and courage to do what had to be done.

This is all I am saying. It is not MURDER, it is not fueled by HATE.

So Seth.... How does this sit with "You keep your judgment within the church, I will handle the world?"

There was no judging, just DOING what needed to be done.

I cannot explain this any better. This guard did NOT MURDER, she acted in accordance to the LOVE in her heart; the LOVE that she knew required ACTION.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2013, 09:17:44 PM »
Quote
Father was with her the whole way, giving her the strength and courage to do what had to be done.

This is all I am saying. It is not MURDER, it is not fueled by HATE.

So Seth.... How does this sit with "You keep your judgment within the church, I will handle the world?"

There was no judging, just DOING what needed to be done.

I cannot explain this any better. This guard did NOT MURDER, she acted in accordance to the LOVE in her heart; the LOVE that she knew required ACTION.

I don't think the guard murdered anyone either. She killed. That was her purpose.

God has set up those authorities to judge those who break laws of the world. Christ's followers need not worry about that because they do the works commanded by Christ which are works of Love. So his faithful do not need to worry about coming under the judgment of those who carry the swords.

However, I don't know how to use a weapon of death because I let God handle the world and I do not judge them. I am only able, Lord willing, to repay evil with good, to do good to those who do evil. If that security guard quit her job, she would be replaced by another. That is how the world works.

Like I said before, though the world may be USED by God for judgement, I am, Lord willing, not OF this world and my hands are not in use for killing. I leave that judgment to God and let vengeance be his and his alone.

Offline JulieTang84

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2013, 09:34:34 PM »
 This brave woman called on the power of the Holy Spirit, yet you call her OF THIS WORLD!!  :sigh:

Father reads hearts Seth and he works in many ways that sre higher than yours and mine.

I feel you have a greater disdain for the weapon than Love and Gratitude for any who put their lives in danger, protecting those who cannot protect themselves.

I wonder what Jesus will say, what did the Two guards who froze do on that fateful day?

Nothing will not be the best answer.

The guard will surely say, prayed and did what she was given to do.

Are you saying that you choose not, places you in better standing? Gosh I hope not.

This has clearly ran its course .

I pray always for strength and wisdom, just like this woman. If and when Father calls on me, I hope I am not found wanting. No I do not carry a gun.

Love you bro, we are just in different places in this.

Love Julie.
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2013, 09:42:13 PM »
This brave woman called on the power of the Holy Spirit, yet you call her OF THIS WORLD!!  :sigh:

Hi Julie,
I only say what my own course is, and what I recommend. Many people call upon the power of the Holy Spirit. Many Muslims pray as they kill, and Jews pray as they kill, and Americans pray as they kill. But I have seen too many images of broken, bleeding children in war to have any part in the function of a weapon to draw blood. That's my path and I am simply explaining why I choose that path.


Quote
I feel you have a greater disdain for the weapon than Love and Gratitude for any who put their lives in danger, protecting those who cannot protect themselves.

I have nothing but love for those people.


Quote
I wonder what Jesus will say, what did the Two guards who froze do on that fateful day?

Editing to reflect your intended meaning:

Jesus may very well ask: "Did any of you do everything in your power to be sacrificed in their place? Did any of you offer "take me instead" at least once before firing the weapon?"

I love you too Julie. Peace.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 09:56:47 PM by Seth »

Offline JulieTang84

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 09:50:53 PM »
Peace and love to you to Seth. I messed up and said YOU.I corrected it as soon as I seen it.

Thank you for not taking any of this personally.  ::HeartThrob:

I have the utmost respect for you.

Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline Seth

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Re: Did Father say: Thou shall not kill
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2013, 10:12:10 PM »
No problem Julie. Peace to you. :HeartThrob: