was gehenna uses in Jesus Days to denote hell?

[sven]

iīve read condradicting stuff, some claim gehenna was used to denote hell even in Jesus days, others claim decades later. iīm not quite sure but both the Book of Enoch and 4./2. Esra use Tartarus to denote hell, is this true? others might have used Hades. what about Gehenna, are there any scriptures that the Rabbis called hell gehenna in this days?

one fact might be that the latin vulgata translates geenna with gehennam and Hades with Inferno, i think the roman-catholic and italian word for hell is inferno, so they didnīt understand gehenna to be hell.

[WhiteWings]

Tartarus is the place where the most wicked fallen angels/demons are kept.
Gehenna is a garbage dump in the Valley of Hinnom south west of Jerusalem. It was always burning and represents the place that is similar to what we consider to be hell.
Israel burned their children alive there as sacrifices to the idols Chemosh, Moloch and Baal. After returning from Babylon, the Jews used it as an open pit for a garbage dump for executed criminals, decaying food and human excrement. When it became full it was set on fire.

The Jews returned from Babylon before Jesus. So Gehenna was there before and during Jesus.

Hades is found eleven times only in the New Testament, and is rendered by the word Hell ten times, and once by the
word Grave. 1 Cor. 15:55. It is universally allowed by critics that Hades corresponds in meaning with Sheol; and this
is confirmed by the fact that the Septuagint, [note 1] which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptrues, made in
part about three hundred years before Christ, has rendered Sheol by the word Hades sixty times out of sixty-four
instances where it occurs. However, with regard to the meaning of the word, in the New Testament, it may be well to
have independent testimony.
[note 1: The Septuagint, or Seventy, sometimes written the LXX., is so called from the fact or tradition of its being the joint labor of
seventy learned Jews in the time of Ptolemy Philadelphus. It was in use in our Savior's time]
Meaning and usage of Hades. A theologian, equally learned as a scholar, judicious as a critic, and impartial as a
commentator, says of Hades, --
"In my judgment, it ought never in Scripture to be rendered Hell, at least in the sense wherein that word is universally
understood by Christians. It is very plain that neither in the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, nor in the New,
does the word Hades convey the meaning which the present English word Hell, in the Christian usage, always conveys
to our minds. The attempt to illustrate this would be unnecessary, as it is hardly now pretended by any critic that this is
the acceptation of the term in the Old Testament."[note 2]
[note 2: DR. CAMPBELL, "Preliminary Dissertations," Diss. Vi. Part ii. LE CLERC affirms that "neither Hades nor Sheol ever
signify in the Sacred Scripture the abode of evil spirits, but only the sepulchre, or the state of the dead." And this is also the
testimony of GROTIUS and other learned men. -- De Elingenda, inter Dissentientes Christianos, Sententia Liber. par. vii. See also
POOLE's "Continuators on Like," xvi. 19-30. These testimonies, which might be added to indefinitely, are enough to show that
Hades in the New Testament is simply the Greek form of what Sheol is in the Old; and therefore that "Hell" does not convey to the
people of this day the same idea which Hades conveyed to the people in the time of Christ. It is plain, too, that at the time our
translation was made, "Hell" in English did not bear the exclusive meaning it has now. The Apostle's Creed, so called, is proof of
this, when it says, that Christ after his crucifixion "descended into hell!" Surely the Protestant English Church did not mean to say
that Christ went into a place of endless woe. Therefore, as Prof. STUART says, "Hell, in this document, means the underworld, the
world of the dead, and so it has ben construed by the most intelligent critics of the English Church." It has been very correctly said
that "Hell, in its primitive signification, corresponded perfectly in meaning with Hades. It comes from the Anglo-Saxon, helan, to
cover or hide; hence the tiling or slating of a house is called, in Cornwall, helling to this day; and the covers of books in Lancashire
by the same name -- so the literal import of the original word Hades was formerly well expressed by it." CAMPBELL,
DODDRIDGE, CLARKE, PARKHURST, and others. I saw lately in an English newspaper, an account of an accident which
happened to a Slater, who "fell from the roof while engaged in helling it."]
And now let us turn to the New Testament, and we shall find that Hades, in its literal usage, is the equivalent of Sheol,
signifying,
I. The grave, the underworld, or place of the dead.

[sven]

yes, but i meant in the apocrypha, its important to get sure what Jesus meant, as far as i know the Book of Enoch and 2./4. Esra used Tartarus to denote hell, so if gehenna was never used before to denote hell, its very unlikely that Jesus meant hell when speaking of gehenna, i think the pharisees denoted hades to be hell.

so it would be interesting for me to get to know, when gehenna was first used to denote hell or purgatory in apocryph books or in jewish literature as for example the talmud.

[WhiteWings]

2 Kings 23:10  And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.


Hinnom=Gehenna
So the word was in use for a long time before Jesus.

JEWISH VIEWS OF GEHENNA
Gehenna is the name given by Jews to Hell. Rev. H. N. Adler, a Jewish
Rabbi, says: "They do not teach endless retributive suffering. They hold
that it is not conceivable that a God of mercy and justice would ordain
infinite punishment for finite wrong-doing." Dr. Dentsch declares: "There
is not a word in the Talmud that lends any support to that damnable dogma
of endless torment." Dr. Dewes in his "Plea for Rational Translation," says
that Gehenna is alluded to four or five times in the Mishna, thus: "The
judgment of Gehenna is for twelve months;" "Gehenna is a day in which
the impious shall be burnt." Bartolocci declares that "the Jews did not believe
in a material fire, and thought that such fire as they did believe in
would one day be put out."

===> So the Jewish view is: Not eternal fire. Not literal fire.


Rabbi Akiba, "the second Moses," said: "The
duration of the punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months."
Adyoth 3: 10. some rabbis said Gehenna only lasted from Passover to Pentecost.
This was the prevalent conception. (Abridged from Excursus 5, in
Canon Farrar's "Eternal Hope." He gives in a note these testimonies to
prove that the Jews to whom Jesus spoke, did not regard Gehenna as of
endless duration). Asarath Maamaroth, f. 35, 1: "There will hereafter be no
Gehenna." Jalkuth Shimoni, f. 46, 1: "Gabriel and Michael will open the
eight thousand gates of Gehenna, and let out Israelites and righteous Gentiles."
A passage in Othoth, (attributed to R. Akiba) declares that Gabriel
and Michael will open the forty thousand gates of Gehenna, and set free the
damned, and in Emek Hammelech, f. 138, 4, we read: "The wicked stay
in Gehenna till the resurrection, and then the Messiah, passing through it
redeems them." See Stephelius' Rabbinical Literature.
Rev. Dr. Wise, a learned Jewish Rabbi, says: "That the ancient Hebrews
had no knowledge of Hell is evident from the fact that their language has
no term for it. When they in after times began to believe in a similar place
they were obliged to borrow the word 'Gehinnom,' the valley of Hinnom,' a
place outside of Jerusalem, which was the receptacle for the refuse of the
city-a locality which by its offensive smell and sickening miasma was
58
shunned, until vulgar superstition surrounded it with hob-goblins. Haunted
places of that kind are not rare in the vicinity of populous cities. In the
Mishna of the latest origin the word Gehinnom is used as a locality of
punishment for evil-doers, and hence had been so used at no time before
the third century, A. D."
From the time of Josephus onwards, there is an interval of about a century,
from which no Jewish writings have descended to us. It was a period
of dreadful change with that ruined and distracted people. The body politic
was dissolved, the whole system of their ceremonial religion had been
crushed in the fall of their city and temple; and they themselves scattered
abroad were accursed on all the face of the earth. Their sentiments underwent
a rapid transformation, and when next we see their writings, we find
them filled with every extravagant conceit that mad and visionary brains
ever cherished. Expos. Vol. 2. Art, Gehenna, II Ballou, 2d.
Before considering the passages of Scripture containing the word, the
reader should carefully read and remember the following:
IMPORTANT FACTS
1. Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, and ought
no more to be translated Hell, than should Sodom or Gomorrah.
See Josh. 15: 8; 2 Kings 17: 10; 2 Chron. 28: 3; Jer. 7: 31, 32;
19: 2.
2. Gehenna is never employed in the Old Testament to mean anything
else than the place with which every Jew was familiar.
3. The word should have been left untranslated as it is in some
versions, and it would not be misunderstood. It was not misunderstood
by the Jews to whom Jesus addressed it. Walter
Balfour well says: "What meaning would the Jews who were
familiar with this word, and knew it to signify the valley of
Hinnom, be likely to attach to it when they heard it used by
our Lord? Would they, contrary to all former usage, transfer
its meaning from a place with whose locality and history they
had been familiar from their infancy, to a place of misery in
another world? This conclusion is certainly inadmissible. By
what rule of interpretation, then, can we arrive at the conclusion
that this word means a place of misery and death?"
4. The French Bible, the Emphatic Diaglott, Improved Version,
Wakefield's Translation and Newcomb's retain the proper noun,
Gehenna, the name of a place as well-known as Babylon.
5. Gehenna is never mentioned in the Apocrypha as a place of
future punishment as it would have been had such been its
59 The Bible Hell
meaning before and at the time of Christ.
6. No Jewish writer, such as Josephus or Philo, ever uses it as the
name of a place of future punishment, as they would have done
had such then been its meaning.
7. No classic Greek author ever alludes to it and therefore it was
a Jewish locality, purely.
8. The first Jewish writer who ever names it as a place of future
punishment is Jonathan Ben Uzziel who wrote, according to
various authorities, from the second to the eighth century, A.D.
9. The first Christian writer who calls Hell Gehenna is Justin
Martyr who wrote about A. D. 150.
10. Neither Christ nor his apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but
only to Jews which proves it a locality only known to Jews,
whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners,
it would have been preached to Gentiles as well as Jews.
11. It was only referred to twelve times on eight occasions in all
the ministry of Christ and the apostles, and in the Gospels and
Epistles. Were they faithful to their mission to say no more
than this on so vital a theme as an endless Hell, if they intended
to teach it?
12. Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter
nor Jude ever employ it. Would they not have warned sinners
concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death?
13. Paul says he "shunned not to declare the whole counsel of
God," and yet though he was the great preacher of the Gospel
to the Gentiles he never told them that Gehenna is a place of
after-death punishment. Would he not have repeatedly warned
sinners against it were there such a place?
;nbsp
Dr. Thayer significantly remarks: "The Savior and James are the
only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John
Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men did not use
it once. Paul wrote fourteen epistles and yet never once mentions
it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote
the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelations, never
employs it in a single instance. Now if Gehenna or Hell really
reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account
for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its
meaning and believed it a part of Christ's teaching that they
should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead
of never using it at all; especially when we consider the
infinite interests involved? The Book of Acts contains the
60
record of the apostolic preaching,and the history of the first
planting of the church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces
a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In
all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles
of Jesus there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of
missionary effort these men of God, addressing people of all
characters and nations never under any circumstances threaten
them with the torments of Gehenna or allude to it in the most
distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this can any man
believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment and that
this is part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message
to the world? These considerations show how impossible it is
to establish the doctrine in review on the word Gehenna. All
the facts are against the supposition that the term was used by
Christ or his disciples in the sense of endless punishment. There
is not the least hint of any such meaning attached to it, nor the
slightest preparatory notice that any such new revelation was
to be looked for in this old familiar word."
14. Jesus never uttered it to unbelieving Jews, nor to anybody but
his disciples, but twice (Matt. 23: 15-33) during his entire
ministry, nor but four times in all. If it were the final abode
of unhappy millions, would not his warnings abound with
exhortations to avoid it?
15. Jesus never warned unbelievers against it but once in all his
ministry (Matt. 23: 33) and he immediately explained it as
about to come in this life.
16. If Gehenna is the name of Hell then men's bodies are burned
there as well as their souls. Matt. 5: 29; 18: 9.
17. If it be the name of endless torment, then literal fire is the
sinner's punishment. Mark 9: 43-48.
18. Salvation is never said to be from Gehenna.
19. Gehenna is never said to be of endless duration nor spoken of
as destined to last forever, so that even admitting the popular
ideas of its existence after death it gives no support to the idea
of endless torment.
20. Clement, a Universalist, used Gehenna to describe his ideas
of punishment. He was one of the earliest of the Christian
Fathers. The word did not then denote endless punishment.
21. A shameful death or severe punishment in this life was at the
time of Christ denominated Gehenna (Schleusner, Canon Farrar
and others), and there is no evidence that Gehenna meant
anything else at the time of Christ.

[sven]

thank you, but iīve read this stuff, but my problem is

Gehenna is the name given by Jews to Hell.

when did this happen?

and

He gives in a note these testimonies to
prove that the Jews to whom Jesus spoke, did not regard Gehenna as of
endless duration

did the Jews already in Jesus days consider Gehenna to be a place of punishment wether eternal or temporaly after death? Iīve read that Origenes said, that Gehenna is purgatory, it would be interesting how he came to this point of view, maybe from jewish writings?

In the Mishna of the latest origin the word Gehinnom is used as a locality of
punishment for evil-doers, and hence had been so used at no time before
the third century, A. D.

this iīve read also, but also statements saying the opposite, so i wanted to get sure

in the latin vulgata gehenna appears in the old testament in Joshua 15,8

ascenditque per convallem filii Ennom ex latere Iebusei ad meridiem haec est Hierusalem et inde se erigens ad verticem montis qui est contra Gehennom ad occidentem in summitate vallis Rafaim contra aquilonem

And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:

and Joshua 18,16

descenditque in partem montis qui respicit vallem filiorum Ennom et est contra septentrionalem plagam in extrema parte vallis Rafaim descenditque Gehennom id est vallis Ennom iuxta latus Iebusei ad austrum et pervenit ad fontem Rogel

And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel

[WhiteWings]

thank you, but iīve read this stuff, but my problem is

Gehenna is the name given by Jews to Hell.

when did this happen?

Gehenna is Hinnom. And that was written about in 2 Kings.  I don't know when 2Kings took place.... But long before Jesus.
Hell isn't a Jewish word so I don't understand how it can claim the Jews gave it that name.
Plus the article clearly states it temporary and not literally true.

He gives in a note these testimonies to
prove that the Jews to whom Jesus spoke, did not regard Gehenna as of
endless duration

did the Jews already in Jesus days consider Gehenna to be a place of punishment wether eternal or temporaly after death? Iīve read that Origenes said, that Gehenna is purgatory, it would be interesting how he came to this point of view, maybe from jewish writings?

IMO the Jews never saw it as a place of punishment. It was place of utter shame. Executed criminals where created there. No decent burial rites.

In the Mishna of the latest origin the word Gehinnom is used as a locality of
punishment for evil-doers, and hence had been so used at no time before
the third century, A. D.

this iīve read also, but also statements saying the opposite, so i wanted to get sure

Can't help you with that Sven. I can quote things but that's about it...

in the latin vulgata gehenna appears in the old testament in Joshua 15,8

From what I read on this board the vulgate isn't exactly seen as an perfect translation. (understatement)

[sven]

From what I read on this board the vulgate isn't exactly seen as an perfect translation.

in my view the vulgate is way better than the KJV or Luther, concerning the translation of ages, sometimes i get the impression both the KJV and Luther are translated from the vulgate, when the vulgata translates aion with saeculum, it seems both Luther and the KJV use "world", when the vulgate has aeternum for aion, they used eternal. the vulgate fits to the concordant version quite well.

for example hebrews 9,26

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (KJV)

alioquin oportebat eum frequenter pati ab origine mundi nunc autem semel in consummatione saeculorum ad destitutionem peccati per hostiam suam apparuit

since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest. (Concordant Literal Translation)

Hell isn't a Jewish word so I don't understand how it can claim the Jews gave it that name.

sure it isnīt a jewish word, you call it hell, the german word is quite similar, the romans and italians called it inferno, the problem is, what did the jews understand with gehenna? nowadays they use it for purgatory, there were jews in the past who believed in eternal torment as far as i know, the problem is, how did they call this place?

i donīt think Jesus talked about "hell", but i would be glad to have sure proof that for example gehenna as a place of afterlive punishment appeared in jewish literature, lets say not before 150 ad or later.

something like that, but iīve read other statements:

In the Mishna of the latest origin the word Gehinnom is used as a locality of
punishment for evil-doers, and hence had been so used at no time before
the third century, A. D.

Rabbi Akiba, "the second Moses," said: "The
duration of the punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months."

wikipedia says Rabbi Akiba lived in the time of Jesus, if for example in Jesus days, Gehenna was understand as purgatory, it would be a good prove for universalism, but if in Jesus days Gehenna was already understand as a place of eternal or temporaly torment, i wouldnīt be glad about.

[WhiteWings]

"lasts twelve months"

Those 3 words clearly tell me that person doesn't believe in a eternal hell.
So purgatory at best.
Elsewhere in my quotes 'the Jews' state they don't believe in literal fire either.
I found some of my quotes here: http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes/

If I understand UR correctly it teaches purgatory.
Temporary "hell". The difference is that IIRC the Catholic purgatory is real, but not so hot, real fire.
Personally I believe more in a spiritual type of fire.

About "aeternum" and "saeculum"
I can't find it right now but I did post something about those words.
The English word eternal comes from Latin that did not mean eternal but later got that meaning.
Something like that. If I find it I'll post it.

[WhiteWings]

http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity.html
Read all or search for aeternum.

We shall now consider its usage by Jerome in the Latin Vulgate Version. Those who maintain that the Greek ai�n signifies eternity or "for ever" would do well to consider very carefully Jerome's renderings from Greek into Latin. Out of about 130 occurrences of eon in the Greek New Testament, Jerome renders by seculum 101 times, while he uses aeternum 27 times. If by the latter word he meant eternity, he is very inconsistent.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/Time_4.html

Jerome's 'aeternum plus ultra' may be considered feasible only if we accept the probability that in his day 'aeternum' did not mean 'endlessness', otherwise to speak of a 'beyond' is a contradiction in terms which one is not prepared to ascribe to a scholar of Jerome's skill and devotion.

"As for the Latin Vulgate, over all, Jerome did an excellent job. His translation became a classic that
has been used ever since. However, we must confine our remarks here to the subject of "eternal" and
"everlasting," because it is through the Latin Vulgate (The Roman Catholic Bible) that we
inherited these words (eternal and everlasting) in the English Bible!
"When Jerome came to the Greek word aeonian (age-lasting), he had two Latin words to choose from
in its translation: seculum and aeternum. Both of these words had already been used in the Old Latin
version that he was correcting. And, in fact, these words were quite close in meaning to the Greek
aeonian. So Jerome used both words interchangeably.
There was just one problem. The Latin words had a double meaning, according to a footnote which
was found in Augustine's "City of God."
The words "eternal" and "eternity" from Latin eternus, aeternitas, are related to aevum, which
mans BOTH "unending time" and "a period of time;" for the second meaning, the commoner
(sic) word is aetas.
"This footnote was put in by modern Latin scholars to clarify the Latin terminology, because
Augustine was attempting to prove that aeternus and aeternitas in his

[WhiteWings]

That is not to say that these are not perfectly fine words, they are, but we must be
aware that the meaning of words change, and when words change to the very
opposite of what they meant hundreds or thousands of years ago, it behooves us to
take note of those changes as I am doing in this paper. The Latin aeternum and
eternalis (from which we get "eternal") never meant "endlessness" or "without
beginning and end" in the first century AD. Neither did the common use of the word
hell back in Old England, mean a place where living people are tortured in literal
everlasting fire.But make no mistake about it; the King James Bible is "Catholic" in many ways.
Anyone with a copy of the 1611 King James Bible knows that it contains the fourteen
books of the Apocrypha still retained by Catholic Bibles to this day. Protestants who
teach the "inerrancy" and "flawlessness" of the King James have a difficult time
explaining why fourteen whole books have been cut out of this "inerrant" Translation.
Those of us who try to teach the proper use of just two King James errors (hell &
eternal) are met with frightening opposition. Yet they drop FOURTEEN WHOLE
BOOKS from their own Bible without a blush.

The German theologian and historian Johann Christoph Doerderlin (1829-1888) writes: "In
proportion as any man was eminent in learning in Christian antiquity, the more did he cherish and
defend the hope of the termination of future torments." Later on, as when we read some of the
early Christian writings, we will find this statement to be true; the more learned a Christian was in
the Scriptures in the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, the more likely he or she was to see the
"Doctrine of the Restitution of All Things." Those such as Augustine, who said he hated the Greek
language, who read only the Latin Vulgate translation, began to be prone toward the "Doctrine of
Eternal Torment."
One of several reasons for this was because the Greek word "aion," which meant "age," was
translated into the Latin Vulgate as "aeternum" and "seculum." This was a serious mistake which
also corrupted our English translations. This error was instrumental in changing the doctrine of
the early Christians who believed that punishment was confined to "age." The Latin church, filled
with unconverted pagans, separated themselves from the original languages and secluded
themselves into the corrupted Latin Vulgate and began to teach what the pagan religions had
taught for centuries--eternal torment. I have much information about this. If you want to learn, I'll
be happy to send it to you.

In Ex. 15:18, where the KJV says: "The Lord shall reign forever and ever," the Septuagint shows, kurios basileuon ton aiona kai ap aiona kai eti, "The Lord is reigning the eon, and upon eon, and longer," and the Latin Vulgate, in aeternum et ultra, "into eternity and beyond." The Hebrew says, "Jehovah shall reign to the eon and beyond." Our conception of the English "forever and ever" allows for no time to be "beyond."

I hope this helps a bit in your search...

[sven]

i know this stuff, but thanks 

Jerome also didnīt believe in ET as far as I know, he said something like, the damned will be saved, but it must kept secret in order that people do not sin.

Anyone with a copy of the 1611 King James Bible knows that it contains the fourteen
books of the Apocrypha still retained by Catholic Bibles to this day. Protestants who
teach the "inerrancy" and "flawlessness" of the King James have a difficult time
explaining why fourteen whole books have been cut out of this "inerrant" Translation.

this is grotesque, do they really believe what they tell?