Author Topic: The Hebrew Word "Forever"  (Read 1610 times)

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Tim B

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The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« on: September 14, 2009, 07:44:53 AM »
Psalm 9:5 (Young's Literal Translation)

 5Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.

AND

here (according to searchgodsword.com):

Ge 27:33 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Hebrew]
Then Isaac trembled violently, and said, "Who was he then that hunted game and brought it to me, so thatI ate of all of it before you came, and blessed him? Yes, and he shall be blessed ."

(Although, if you look at the Hebrew on www.scripture4all.com it says the word "od", in this verse, means "unto.")

It's got like a trillion different translations though:

 Strong's Number:  5704
Original Word   Word Origin
    עד       properly, the same as (05703) (used as prep, adv or conj)
Transliterated Word   Phonetic Spelling
    `ad       ad  [or "od", it would seem]
Parts of Speech   TWOT
    N/A       1565c
 
Definition
     prep
as far as, even to, until, up to, while, as far as
of space
as far as, up to, even to
in combination
from...as far as, both...and (with 'min' - from)
of time
even to, until, unto, till, during, end
of degree
even to, to the degree of, even like conj
until, while, to the point that, so that even
It's used in such verses as these:

Translated Words
 KJV (99) - as long, ; as yet, 99; by, ; hitherto, ; how long, ; when, ;

NAS (235) - account, 1; afar, 1; after, 1; all the way, 1; along, 1; before, 3; beside, 1; beyond, 1; both, 1; completely, 1; either...or, 1; equal, 1; even, 24; even including, 1; exceedingly, 3; extremely, 1; far, 1; forever, 66; forevermore, 1; here, 2; how many, 2; including, 1; like, 2; little while, 1; long, 25; momentary, 1; never, 2; only, 1; or, 9; over, 1; over there, 1; point, 1; reaching, 1; since, 1; so long, 1; still, 1; there, 1; threatened, 1; till, 3; time, 1; toward, 1; unfathomable, 1; until, 43; until the when, 1; utterly, 3; very, 2; violently, 1; when, 1; while, 7; while i was still, 1; within, 1; without, 2; yet, 1; ...

How do some of these even remotely relate to "forever"??

Does anybody have any deeper understanding behind this word? Honestly, it's pretty ridiculous to have THAT many translations for that ONE word.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 07:54:38 AM by Tim B »

Tim B

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2009, 08:13:30 AM »
"Unto" seems to the definition that makes the most sense. But, it still leaves certain passages unanswered, or open ended.

What does, for instance, "to the age and unto ["ad"/"od"]" mean?

That's how it's phrased in such verses as:

Psalm 9:5 (Young's Literal Translation)

 5Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever/"unto".


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2009, 08:51:35 AM »
Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.

Strange. If they are blotted out for ever then mentioning an age is useless.
That found be like: eternal + 50 years

How about?
Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and even including (part of) the next age
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Tim B

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2009, 05:21:43 PM »
Also, blotted out can't be taken too literally, as how else will such a man be judged according to his deeds? It'd be kind of hard if he was blotted out and couldn't it make it to the court ruling. lol

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2009, 06:31:09 PM »
I think blotted out means 'no grace' for a while.
(book of life)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 06:35:49 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Tim B

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2009, 06:56:00 PM »
I think blotted out means 'no grace' for a while.
(book of life)

Hmm, that's interesting. I've never heard of that meaning before, but then again, I've never really heard of any meaning for it before. I just thought it meant erased.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2009, 07:22:07 PM »
It was just my thought. Nothing from official sources....

If I check a leading dictionary like Merriam-Webster it indeed means ereased (from a book).

But other sources:
Obliterate, wipe out of existence or memory[/color], as in At least one Indian nation was blotted out as the pioneers moved west, or The trauma of the accident blotted out all her memory of recent events. This idiom, first recorded in 1516, uses the verb to blot in the sense of making something illegible by spotting or staining it with ink. The New Testament has it (Acts 3:19): "Repent ye ... that your sins may be blotted out."

So "blotted out" means "removed from"
KJV is full of italics. Added words to improve readability. I think the verse you quoted needs some italics.
Below 3 verses from YLT and my interpretation of them.

YLTPsalm 9:5  .... Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.
YLTPsalm 69:28  They are blotted out of the book of life, And with the righteous are not written.
YLTRevelation 3:5 ....shall be arrayed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the scroll of the life....

WWPsalm 9:5 You have removed their name from the book of life for this age and (part of) the next age.
WWPsalm 69:28 Their name is removed from the book of life, but the names of the righteous are not.
WWRevelation 3:5 ... shall be dressed in white, and I won't remove his name from the book of life.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 07:06:16 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Tim B

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2009, 07:43:38 PM »
It was just my thought. Nothing from official sources....

If I check a leading dictionary like Merriam-Webster it indeed means ereased (from a book).

But other sources:
Obliterate, wipe out of existence or memory[/color], as in At least one Indian nation was blotted out as the pioneers moved west, or The trauma of the accident blotted out all her memory of recent events. This idiom, first recorded in 1516, uses the verb to blot in the sense of making something illegible by spotting or staining it with ink. The New Testament has it (Acts 3:19): "Repent ye ... that your sins may be blotted out."

So "blotted out" means "removed from"
KJV is full of italics. Added words to improve readability. I think the verse you quoted needs some italics.
Below 3 verses from YLT and my interpretation of them.

YLTPsalm 9:5  .... Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.
YLTPsalm 69:28  They are blotted out of the book of life, And with the righteous are not written.
YLTRevelation 3:5 ....shall be arrayed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the scroll of the life....

WWPsalm 9:5 You have removed their name from the book of life for this age and (part of) the next age.
WWPsalm 69:28 Their name is removed from the book of life, but the names of the righteous are.
WWRevelation 3:5 ... shall be dressed in white, and I won't remove his name from the book of life.

I think you've got the right idea. Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (REB) seems to get closer to the mark (than YLT):

Psalms 9:5 (REB)
Thou hast rebuked the nations, Thou hast destroyed the lawless one, Their name, hast thou wiped out, to times age-abiding and beyond.

Although it's funny it translates "for eon" as "times age-abiding". It's not plural, so there's really no reason to say "times". It's clearer to just say "for the age." 

So, it seems that the word, at the most should be translated "beyond." I see no honest reason to translate it as forever unless you're trying to support a doctrine.

Offline Doc

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2009, 01:36:46 AM »
I thought this one was odd, too.

Psa 13:1 (KJV)  How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?

H5331 ("for ever") here according to Strong's is:

נצח    נצח
netsach  nÍtsach
neh'-tsakh, nay'-tsakh
From H5329; properly a goal, that is, the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (that is, to the most distant point of view): - alway (-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever (more), perpetual, strength, victory.

"Forever" was an odd translation of this word also...
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2009, 01:59:34 AM »
 :cloud9: I like that. That word and the scripture there are describing the light of the Kingdom behind the veil, which is what hides the face of the Father from us. The journey from outer to the most holy is the description of the bright 'object' traveled towards in the 'distance'. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Tim B

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2009, 06:57:03 PM »
I thought this one was odd, too.

Psa 13:1 (KJV)  How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?

H5331 ("for ever") here according to Strong's is:

נצח    נצח
netsach  nÍtsach
neh'-tsakh, nay'-tsakh
From H5329; properly a goal, that is, the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (that is, to the most distant point of view): - alway (-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever (more), perpetual, strength, victory.

"Forever" was an odd translation of this word also...

Rotherham's Emphasized seems to do a better job in translating:

Psalms 13:1: How long, O Yahweh, wilt thou wholly forget me? How long wilt thou hide thy face from me?

In the original, the Hebrew text has something along the lines of "permanence how long?" Since the idea of "permanence" is connected with "how long" it doesn't seem to suggest anything about forever (asking "forever, how long?" seems kind of redundant). Something more along the lines of "how long will thou completely/absolutely/etc. forsake me?" makes sense though.

Plus, it would seem that, in such a case, David wasn't truly forsaken, but he certainly felt like it. So this is more along the lines of David making his feelings known about the situation, but not the reality of the situation.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2009, 07:16:20 PM »
This verse can be broken down in two parts the way I read it.
a] A statement of David that God does abandon people (sometimes)
b] A question about how long that abandoning is gonna last.

It's important to see those two parts seperately.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Tim B

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2009, 07:47:09 PM »
This verse can be broken down in two parts the way I read it.
a] A statement of David that God does abandon people (sometimes)
b] A question about how long that abandoning is gonna last.

It's important to see those two parts seperately.


Thanks WW!

And on part B, I think, according to Romans: it won't be forever.

Have they stumbled so far as to fall? God forbid!  :thumbsup:

Offline sven

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2009, 12:57:35 PM »
as far as I know, the ancient hebrews had no word that mean't eternal in the modern sense of "endless"

The Hebrew words that are claimed to mean eternal are "olam", "ad" and "nezach", maybe some others also

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hebrew Word "Forever"
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2009, 01:30:07 PM »
as far as I know, the ancient hebrews had no word that mean't eternal in the modern sense of "endless"
Olam is like a period with a unknow duration. It's end is hidden behind the horizon.
Stricktly speaking that end could be infinitly far away IMO.
Only God knows that endpoint. But elsewhere in the Bible approx. endpoints are given.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...