Author Topic: Should we trust what bible says?  (Read 4783 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2012, 10:40:18 PM »
I'm thinking maybe His giving clearer insight into more what the earliest manuscripts say, is part of the Spirit "leading us into all truth"...? 

Offline Molly

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2012, 10:56:23 PM »
Jabcat,

I think you were just nailing it with that post.  I think you answered all your own questions right there.  I doubt we disagree on any of it.  I do believe it's important to have translations that are as accurate as possible.  I do believe some are built for more scholarly activities within the faith, and I believe that can be very helpful...especially amongst the babes in Christ.  Many of those have not acquired the ability to discern spiritually but can discern naturally.  That is where I was when I was led to book by Martin Zender.  I believe God used the studies of Zender to lead me here.

So, if I have ever given the impression I don't believe study, translations or any of the like is important then I gave the wrong impression.  I will say though that I have become disenchanted with the thought that I can ever reason out God through proper study of His word without relationship being first.  For me, it's all about the priority and the focus.  My focus today is relationship, prayer, meditation, taking health to the sick, loving my neighbor, gratitude, practicing faith etc.  If I keep my eyes on discovering the truth about God's nature in these things FIRST, then my studies of the Bible are fruitful.  If I neglect the former for the later, and think I can find God through study...then like times past I will be greatly disappointed. 

So today, I think we should ask ourselves this question.  Where is my faith?  Is my faith in the translation?  In my proper dissection of the Bible?  Or is my faith in Christ to perfect me?  In that we find much liberty to grow and move within the faith, and not become distracted with earning our way to understanding.     

So, it's not that I disagree on translational accuracy being important.  I question the motive.  I question the heart behind the furvor.  Are we walking by faith or self reliance?  Do we truly believe Christ is the perfecter of our faith?  Or do we still hang onto the belief that we need to get it right, have our ducks in a row, and earn a bit of this understanding by being zealous in our studies?  In that we will see the difference between faith and pride.  That is the understanding the Lord has given me today.

I hear you.  But, you are still saying [or maybe you're not, correct me if you're not] that what works for you is going to work for me.

I'm a different person with different needs, talents, desires, abilities.  God recognizes that.  So, he will design a plan to bring me into the truth that is different than the one he designs for you.

I read and like the KJV the best.   I understand their mistranslation problems on Hell now, because I am here.  But, I'm not here because I ever had any problem with Hell, or any thought about UR.  I'm here because some stranger invited me here through pm from another board [I never found out who it was, maybe it was an angel].   And, I'm still here because I'm always learning things here that I find satisfying and enjoyable.   But I could care less about Hell because I knew Jesus before I came here and there was never any thought in my mind that he would ever be anything other than just, merciful, kind, and loving.  So, what I've learned here about that is just icing on the cake.  I didn't come here or stay here for that reason.  Nor would I have come here for that reason.

But, the point is, he brings us all to where he wants us, by treating us as individuals.  We are free in him to become more of what we already are because he made us what we are in the first place.

Obviously translation issues are important to me because I spend a lot of time looking at Greek and Hebrew.  But that is something I was led to do by HS, and it works for me.  It is not something that will work for everyone.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 11:05:56 PM by Molly »

Offline shawn

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2012, 11:07:15 PM »
Nope not at all Molly.  I'm saying we all need to look at our motives.  We need to be aware of pride which hinders and binds understanding and growth.

Offline shawn

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2012, 11:07:38 PM »
I'm thinking maybe His giving clearer insight into more what the earliest manuscripts say, is part of the Spirit "leading us into all truth"...?

Yes, I do believe that to be part of the equation.

Offline Molly

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2012, 11:16:12 PM »
Nope not at all Molly.  I'm saying we all need to look at our motives.  We need to be aware of pride which hinders and binds understanding and growth.

But, see, you are talking to yourself here.  You have this motive thing, this pride thing.

I don't have that problem.  It is not an issue for me.  So don't project it onto me.

What I'm saying is--don't tell me what to do because of something that is your problem.

He treats us all as individuals, and if that is something you have a problem with, he will deal with you over it.

In other words, I'm happy to listen to your story, but don't accuse me of having the same problem.

I have my own problems lol.

Offline shawn

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2012, 11:48:30 PM »
Nope not at all Molly.  I'm saying we all need to look at our motives.  We need to be aware of pride which hinders and binds understanding and growth.

But, see, you are talking to yourself here.  You have this motive thing, this pride thing.

I don't have that problem.  It is not an issue for me.  So don't project it onto me.

What I'm saying is--don't tell me what to do because of something that is your problem.

He treats us all as individuals, and if that is something you have a problem with, he will deal with you over it.

In other words, I'm happy to listen to your story, but don't accuse me of having the same problem.

I have my own problems lol.

I don't believe I was ever speaking to you directly.  And don't we all share our individual experiences with Christ to others?  I'm sure some people battle with the things I battle with, and others do not.  Why are you threatened by my experiences and opinions?

Offline Molly

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2012, 11:58:40 PM »
Nope not at all Molly.  I'm saying we all need to look at our motives.  We need to be aware of pride which hinders and binds understanding and growth.

But, see, you are talking to yourself here.  You have this motive thing, this pride thing.

I don't have that problem.  It is not an issue for me.  So don't project it onto me.

What I'm saying is--don't tell me what to do because of something that is your problem.

He treats us all as individuals, and if that is something you have a problem with, he will deal with you over it.

In other words, I'm happy to listen to your story, but don't accuse me of having the same problem.

I have my own problems lol.

I don't believe I was ever speaking to you directly.  And don't we all share our individual experiences with Christ to others?  I'm sure some people battle with the things I battle with, and others do not.  Why are you threatened by my experiences and opinions?
You are talking to me directly because you are saying, 'we all need to....we need to...'

So that would include me.  I don't feel threatened by your experience.   I respect your experience.  I find it interesting.  I enjoy what you have to say.  It is very different from mine, though.  I don't 'need to..'

It would be like me saying, we all need to learn Greek and Hebrew.  I could say it, but obviously, we don't.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 12:04:24 AM by Molly »

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2012, 01:04:49 AM »
Jab I agree with your progressive revelation post.  God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.  We know what we know when we know it because He has it that way.  I see all of creation and this exercise in futility a grand story, that is meant to teach us to not crave evil things, so that when we are elohim and are ruling greater things than a bank account, a mortgage, and 2 car payments, we will be wise stewards, and just rulers. 

I believe that people have the religion they have because God wants it that way.  Or at least He works with mans perversion for the telling of the grand story.  So when we see ET, and all the other "wrong" doctrines, its part of the learning process for us as a race of future rulers to learn that we don't want that way.  That its not good.  I use this example a lot, but  :bdh:

God ordered Moses to fashion the cherubim on the ark, even when He said don't make any graven images of anything.  Then the Israelites fall into worshipping the cherubim.  God knowing the end from the beginning knew they would worship them, really anyone with an outside perspective would probably expect them to worship the gold images, seeing that they just came out of Egypt, the land of idols.

Anyway, He left the choice there between false religion, and the true worship, in Spirit.  The outcome of false worship was death.  These things happened for our examples.  Then idol worship came back in the same time as the doctrine of ET.  The cycle was repeating itself.  Almost like it had to happen that way.  The similarities between the different phases of the church are pretty remarkable.

Tabernacle in wilderness/ Early pure church going from house to house
Solomons temple filled with idolatry/ Institutional Church RCC idolatry
Post exile reformation from idolatry-->pharisees, Post dark ages reformation from RCC/idolatry--> pharisees

Offline jabcat

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2012, 01:26:55 AM »
Good post, thanks.   :nod:

Offline shawn

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2012, 03:39:00 AM »
Nope not at all Molly.  I'm saying we all need to look at our motives.  We need to be aware of pride which hinders and binds understanding and growth.

But, see, you are talking to yourself here.  You have this motive thing, this pride thing.

I don't have that problem.  It is not an issue for me.  So don't project it onto me.

What I'm saying is--don't tell me what to do because of something that is your problem.

He treats us all as individuals, and if that is something you have a problem with, he will deal with you over it.

In other words, I'm happy to listen to your story, but don't accuse me of having the same problem.

I have my own problems lol.

I don't believe I was ever speaking to you directly.  And don't we all share our individual experiences with Christ to others?  I'm sure some people battle with the things I battle with, and others do not.  Why are you threatened by my experiences and opinions?
You are talking to me directly because you are saying, 'we all need to....we need to...'

So that would include me.  I don't feel threatened by your experience.   I respect your experience.  I find it interesting.  I enjoy what you have to say.  It is very different from mine, though.  I don't 'need to..'

It would be like me saying, we all need to learn Greek and Hebrew.  I could say it, but obviously, we don't.

If you don't believe you ever deal with pride issues, and your motives for things of faith are always pure...and you have never tried to earn understanding...then no my statements don't apply to you.  With that said, the Bible doesn't tell us to learn Greek and Hebrew...it does tell us to examine ourselves.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 03:56:31 AM by shawn »

Offline Molly

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2012, 06:24:04 AM »
If we look at a learning curve of time versus knowledge, I have forever on the X axis.  Why would I get prideful when I have so much time ahead of me that the corresponding knowledge must be near infinite?  I've only taken the first few steps.

I realize I do throw opinions around like popcorn at a movie theatre but that is because I find opinions useful for integration, understanding, and debate.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 06:31:38 AM by Molly »

Offline shawn

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2012, 04:14:15 PM »
If we look at a learning curve of time versus knowledge, I have forever on the X axis.  Why would I get prideful when I have so much time ahead of me that the corresponding knowledge must be near infinite?  I've only taken the first few steps.

I realize I do throw opinions around like popcorn at a movie theatre but that is because I find opinions useful for integration, understanding, and debate.

Sounds like a good attitude to have...wish I had the pride thing licked. 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 04:54:41 PM by shawn »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2012, 08:07:39 PM »
I'm thinking maybe His giving clearer insight into more what the earliest manuscripts say, is part of the Spirit "leading us into all truth"...?

Restoration, Renewal, Revelation

Even in the poorer translations, KJV for example- the math for "ultimate universal reconciliation/salvation of all" is there. I did not start pressing into translation issues until after I had already clearly defined the salvation of all in the cumulative revelation of Eph 1:9-11; Col.1 16-21; 1 Cor 15; Romans 11;Romans 8; Rev.5:13; Phil 2:10,11; John 2; etc, etc, etc

I think it so awesome that we hav the means to flush these things out ourselves because of the internet, which has become to the gospel today sort of what Greek and Latin were to the gospel in the early church- a nearly worldwide platform for the dissemination of the truth.

In every age, even in the first hundred years (this is clear from all the epistles & John's revelation) believers hav had to seek, press, and dig to stay in and grow in the truth. There hav always been deceivers, "false epistles as if from us", false apostles, false doctrines, etc, etc..... this will not change to the age.
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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2012, 07:52:43 AM »
 Another element (already touched on here under the reference to God partially blinding some for a season) is the operation of the cherub and cheruba in guarding the way to the tree of life lest some attain to it without appropriate preparation so it becomes a curse.  It's for everybody's benefit you don't get the keys to the car until you're of age and qualify.  The growing up of the Words of Life in us is a Tree of Life.  The flaming sWords turning every direction create pain and distraction, the flame illuminating with dissimulating light.  The animal natures, the faces of the Cherubim, are carnal identities that relate to more or less pressure to be provided to our being in the world in order to keep us --what Paul refers to as knowing "there is no good thing in me; that is, my flesh,"-- keeping that out of deathlessness.

I have to take into account God saying He purposely hides things, that, "It is the glory if God to hide a thing, and the glory of kings search them out."  In over 40 years, in various circumstances I have made known many of the features of the Concordant Literal Translation and only once did someone pursue and buy a copy.  I had made one for the Bookstore I ran to be in a ring binder and gave it to him at cost.  Most of the people I've talked to about the version say they believe in Scripture over other aspects of working out our relationships with God and each other (which of themselves are more important but) because without it we would be adrift in a sea of subjective-ism.  So how come they have no interest?  No other translation even begins to come close to revealing the features of the original texts as CLT does!  I can only suppose there is some spiritual power preventing them from entering in, a power of darkness that holds them bound so they don't seek out the book of the LORD and live.  We're not talking about just reading something like other books.  Sometimes I prime myself and read a science-fiction novel to get flowing in reading.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.  Reading books, like a good commentary to study Scripture while we read the Word, is commendable.  But, whether we find it distasteful and just not fun, or a spirit of sloth or ennui, even something unidentified:  there are powers that prevent people from taking the Word into themselves.

Most of us don't yet know the Bible enough to know what we're trusting is hearsay or Scripture.  Doubly bad, we don't know that we don't know this.  As we continue on we should increase in or knowledge of the Word and we'll find our reliance on it to not be misplace.  Much of the idea there's some kind of warfare between the letter of the word and the spirit of the word is due to lack of experience. 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 08:53:30 PM by reFORMer »
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2012, 08:55:00 AM »
I have to take into account God saying He purposely hides things, that, "It is the glory if God to hide a thing, and the glory of kings search them out."  In over 40 years, in various circumstances I have made known many of the features of the Concordant Literal Translation and only once did someone pursue and buy a copy.  I had made one for the Bookstore I ran to be in a ring binder and gave it to him at cost.  Most of the people I've talked to about the version say they believe in Scripture over other aspects of working out our relationships with God and each other (which of themselves are more important but) because without it we would be adrift in a sea of subjective-ism.  So how come they have no interest?  No other translation even becomes to come close to revealing the features of the original texts as CLT does!  I can only suppose there is some spiritual power preventing them from entering in, a power of darkness that holds them bound so they don't seek out the book of the LORD and live.
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2012, 06:38:37 PM »
I actually meant to post this here, but as I usually am pressed for time when blogging, I got two threads mixed up in my head and posted it in "what bible is good to use".

I may get slammed for this opinion, but I will give it anyway. I do believe the Concordant is an excellent scholarly work with much to recommend as an additional viewpoint and resource, but I do not believe it is a superior translation. There may be some other, more natural reasons it is not catching on.

 Here are some examples  why.

Look at the first chapter of Ephesians in the CLV. Why use the word "laud" instead of "praise". "Laud" is an 18th century word. It is no more accurate a rendering of the greek than a contemporary synonym for it, such as "praise".

The CLV is not rendering the original thoughts into readable language as well as some other translations and IMO it also injects theology into some of its renderings as many of them do.

 For instance, rendering "katabole" as "disruption", may be a theological reflection. In the 11 times the word occurs in the NT there is only one instance where it is not coupled with "of the world"(as in "foundation of the world"), this one time is in Hebrews 11:11, speaking of Sarah and the miracle in which she "conceived seed"(kjv). Did she really "disrupt seed?"(see Heb. 11:11 CLV). If katabole must mean disruption, why is it used in relationship to the conception of Isaac in the womb of Sarah? I understand that such bias is inevitable, but I do not believe the CLV is any less in need of comparative analysis than the NASB or the KJV.

Another example....

In Eph 1 verse 10, translating "pleroma" into "complement" for "complement of eras" as opposed to "fulness" or "completion" of eras kind of baffles me. The other usages of the word "pleroma"(17, NT) all indicate fulness, filling, or perhaps secondarily, completion. The choice of wording, "complement" is unfortunate and confuses the original thought- IMO of course. Again in verse 23, I think the use of the word "complement" for "pleroma", is confusing, and actually inappropriate (being an errant translation) within the context of the original speakers thoughts.

which is His body, the complement(pleroma) of the One completing the all in all."
(Eph 1:23)CLV

which is His body, the fullness(pleroma) of Him who fills all in all.
(Eph 1:23)NASB

I think fulness is clearly a better translation, since it "conveys the meaning in the mind of the speaker" to "the mind of the contemporay reader". IMO this is the goal of all translation.

And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full(pleroma) of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
(Mar 8:20)KJV

And when I break the seven cakes of bread for the four thousand, how many hampers filled(pleroma) with fragments do you pick up?And they are saying to Him, "Seven."
(Mar 8:20)CLV

In Mark 8:20 "pleroma" is "filled" in the CLV. Why change it to "complement" in Ephesians 1:10 & 23?

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
(Rom 13:10)KJV

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
(Rom 13:10)NASB

the love to the neighbour doth work no ill; the love, therefore, is the fulness of law.
(Rom 13:10)YLT

Love is not working evil to an associate. The complement, then, of law, is love."
(Rom 13:10)CLV

Which of these is the least effective translation? Clearly to me it is the CLV, which seems to use "associate" and "complement" for some reason like, 'just to be different".

Yet the second is like it: 'You shall be loving your associate as yourself.'
(Mat 22:39)

In contemporary English an associate is somebody you choose to be associated with. A neighbor is not someone you choose, they are surrounding you and they may be welcome as such or not, but we are to treat them as we would like to be treated.

For me, using "associate" accomplishes no informative purpose....is no more accurate a translation.... and unecessarily sacrifices BOTH literacy and literalness, making the reading unwieldy and strange. Nothing wrong with strangeness if it has a correct purpose. To me it smacks of scholarly self indulgence, and I don't mean that unkindly, I just mean it looks to me like this translation has not been subjected to enough objective criticism.

On the other hand, I love that they used the greek word "ecclesia"(vs 22) instead of translating it to church. I wish many other words were dealt with in this way- words like ecclessia that hav no proper english equivalent, are better just left and defined in context and liner notes.

IMO.... because it is more difficult to read, and sometimes unnecessarily so, I think there are some reasons besides spiritual darkness why the CLV will hav difficulty catching on. Literacy need not be  totally sacrificed for literalness, and it should never be unnecessarily sacrificed. In my opinion the CLV has need of improvement on that level, if it is to become a "communicator" rather than an eclectic selection by scholars.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 06:42:02 PM by eaglesway »
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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2012, 08:00:13 AM »
Because of mistranslations or lack of knowledge, some have assumed that the Bible has contradictions. For example, at Matthew 20:29, it says that Jesus was "going out of Jericho", whereas Luke records Jesus as "getting near to Jericho".(Luke 18:35) A contradiction ? No. Why ?

Many are unaware that during Jesus time, there were two Jerichos. On this, Joseph P. Free writes: "Archaeology, however, has thrown additional light on this apparent discrepancy. Early in the twentieth century A.D., excavations were made at Jericho by Ernest Sellin of the German Oriental Society (1907-1909). The excavations showed that the Jericho of Jesus' time was a double city . . . The old Jewish city was about a mile away from the Roman city. In the light of this evidence, it is possible that Matthew is speaking of the Jewish city which Christ had left, whereas Luke is speaking of the Roman, at which Christ had not yet arrived. Thus, on His way from the old to the new city, Christ met and healed the blind Bartimaeus."-Archaeology and Bible History, 1964, p. 295.

Many have taken the stand that the Bible is not the word of God or contradictory. James Barr (1924 -2006) once Oxford Hebrew professor, said that "the proper term for the Bible would be Word of Israel, Word of some leading early Christians." (The Bible in the Modern World )  There is, however, sound evidence that the Bible is God's word. What are some examples of the Bible's accuracy, that we can trust this "book" ?

Anatomy: The Bible accurately says that 'all the parts' of a human embryo are "in writing." (Psalm 139:13-16; New World Translation) The brain, the heart, the lungs, the eyes - these and all the other body parts are 'written down' in the genetic code of the fertilized egg in the mother's womb. Contained in this code are internal timetables for the appearance of each of these parts in proper order. This fact about the development of the human body was recorded in the Bible almost 3,000 years before James Watson and Francis Crick discovered the genetic DNA code in 1953. How was it possible for the Bible, to have pointed toward a genetic code long before it's discovery in the twentieth century ? Because it was inspired of God, who is called "the source of life" at Psalms 36:9.

Because the King James Bible reads: "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them", at Psalms 139:16, this causes a failure to grasp the vivid meaning of what David wrote.

The New World Translation accurately reads of Psalms 139:16: "Your eyes saw even the embryo of me ("embryo of me", Hebrew golem, meaning "an unformed mass, i.e. as the embryo", Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, H1564), and in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed and there was not yet one among them."

Astronomy: Some 2,700 years ago, long before people in general knew that the earth is round, the prophet Isaiah wrote: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth." (Isaiah 40:22; New World Translation) The Hebrew word chugh here translated "circle," may also be rendered "sphere." (A Concordance of the Hebrew and Chaldee Scriptures, by B. Davidson) Then, too, "the circle" of the earth's horizon is clearly seen from outer space and sometimes during high-altitude airplane travel.

Also, Job 26:7 says that God is "hanging the earth upon nothing." This is now well known, for astronomers now know that the earth has no visible means of support and is spherical or round like a "circle". How could the Bible present this over 1000 years even before Pythagoras asserted that the earth was round in about 500 B.C.E. though most believed it was flat ? Because the Creator, Jehovah God, revealed this to his servants and has been preserved for those who are serious about learning who the true God is, through his word, the Bible.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2012, 06:29:57 PM »
Good post jaareshiah  :thumbsup:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline sheila

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2012, 07:07:37 PM »
 WELL, THE BIBLE IS THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD..AND ONLY HE CAN INTERPRET IT FULLY

  AND ACCURATELY. ALSO IN THE SCRIPTURES THERE IS A REFERENCE TO

   ' 'THE LYING PENS OF THE SCRIBES'

     I REALIZED A LONG TIME AGO..THAT EVEN IF I LIVED A 1000YRS. TWICE OVER..I WOULD NOT

  UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY WITHOUT HIM TEACHING ME  AND TELLING ME;HOW HE MEANS

  IT,HOW HE WILL FULFILL IT.HOW TO APPLY IT ETC

  JESUS SAID,'YE SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES DILIGENTLY,FOR IN THEM YE THINK YE HAVE ETERNAL

 LIFE,YET YE REJECT ME"