Author Topic: The fourth word  (Read 14263 times)

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Offline willieH

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2010, 11:46:22 PM »
I believe you will find your "angels" created here.
Gen 2:1  And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;

6635 ab'c' tsaba' {tsaw-baw'} or (fem.) ha'b'c. tseba'ah {tseb-aw-aw'}
Meaning:  1) that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host 1a) army, host 1a1) host (of organised army) 1a2) host (of angels) 1a3) of sun, moon, and stars 1a4) of whole creation 1b) war, warfare, service, go out to war 1c) service

Strongs Exhaustive Concordance Lexicon (though it is a wonderful and useful tool) ...is NOT the "end all" of word meanings... and in this presentation you (IMO) are ignoring that the word TSABA primarily has to do with WAR

WAR is an element in which PARTICIPANTS in it,  ...DIE.   Angels do NOT DIE... Neither are they associated with the PHYSICAL CREATION... other than as used by YHVH to convey His WORD to that PHYSICAL realm.

The "HOST" [TSABA] in primary application in this text has to do with WAR, ...and is an ARMY prepared (beforehand, via the DECLARATION of YHVH already noted, END to BEGINNING -- Isaiah 46:10)  for WAR which was to manifest, by "beginning" in Genesis/creation... and "ending" at the Last Day.  

As Gen 2:4 -- IN the CONTEXT -- immediately notes the GENERATIONS [all] of the EARTH, in the DAY ["now"] they were created... which would be INVOLVED during that "DAY" ("now")... IN that "WAR"...

The Heavenly Angels are not IN this WAR... they are ministers of the message of GOD to those, within the actual battle... the actual participants in the "WAR" (MEN) are they which the word "TSABA" addresses... and which are amidst the "WAR" ...and are the CASUALTIES of it.

No Heavenly "ANGEL" has ever been a casualty of this WAR... but ALL MEN, ...are casualties of it.

The Context of the WAR and it's 2 primary participants which DIE (almost immediately) [Gen 2:17 -- Gen 3:1-7], have to do with Humanity, not with "angels" in the Heavenly realm.

"ANGELS" are messengers, be they human or Heavenly.  

A "messenger" is simply one that is concerned with delivering a "message", and the "message" is which has to do with WORDS...

So those who are "messengers", are the conveyors of WORDS which are CONVEYED... Once the WORDS are conveyed, they immediately become part of MEMORY [live] ...or... they are FORGOTTEN [die]...  

Just as you SPEAK, and the words of your VOICE (if memorable and contain LIFE), remain as a MEMORY, but the PHYSICAL essence of them in their moment, such as volume, timbre, pronunciation, texture, etc... disappears...  

NOW is the moment of the PHYSICAL existence of spoken words... and either they are RETAINED and LIVE in MEMORY, or they DIE in FORGETFULNESS...  

Via MEMORY do words retain  "life" past the "moment in NOW" in which they are PHYSICALLY SPOKEN or manifest...

Via FORGETFULNESS, do words, ...DIE...

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 12:21:40 AM by willieH »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2010, 11:55:58 PM »
Why the semi colon?
Reads easier that way.... ?
Without it may sound like The Word is the name of God.
That's interpretation. And shouldn't have done that....

Anyware there are no punctuation marks of any kind in the OT and NT.
Isnt it?
To my best knowledge no. Placing a comma can change the entire meaning of the verse....

Riddle of the comma,,,,,,,  :laughing7:
Look at the comma and how the meaning of the verse changes. (first variation has no comma)

#1 "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#2 "Truly I say to you , today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#3 "Truly I say to you today , you shall be with Me in Paradise"

Variation #1 is just very unclear.
Variation #2 "I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise today"
Variation #3 "I'm telling you right now (today) that you will be in paradise with me"
I meant, ISNT The Word, the name of God?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2010, 11:57:34 PM »
I think it's the name of Jesus...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2010, 12:07:22 AM »
I think it's the name of Jesus...

Isnt God a title?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2010, 12:11:13 AM »
 :cloud9: This is hard to put into words.....but I'm going to throw out some thoughts here. First of all, to me it's the first declaration of, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and Jesus (the man) was that Word (which is Spirit and eternal) MADE flesh (Jesus).

This would explain why He proclaimed He was the Alpha and the Omega (which would have been Tav in the original), speaking as the Spirit man/manna from heaven.

Creating or birthing something, is a feminine nature. Planting the seed is masculine in nature. The Spirit that is the Word, does both. There is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus, not because there's either/or, but because there is both.

God IS a Spirit, who has a soul, and He is one with 'her'. He displayed both father and mother aspects of the Godhead, just as we in the natural display both aspects of father and mother because we were made in THEIR image.

He was able to display both, because He possessed His (virgin) soul, the enemy had nothing in Him, and as such, they (Spirit and soul, male and female) were one flesh. The bridal "tent" was named Jesus, a temporary covering of natural flesh, not yet glorified.

A tent is a temporary dwelling place, a PATTERN OF THE TRUE, as Hebrews tells us. The tabernacle or tent in the wilderness, was a pattern of a MAN, with both outer (flesh) and inner (virgin soul/heart of the Father) garments.

The seed was planted in the flesh of Mary, the Spirit thru Elizabeth came and watered it with her salutation. The "seed" responded by leaping within her (raised up, grew). The pressure to bring to birth (birth pangs) came from Herod, which caused them to have to run to Egypt to hide.

One plants, another waters, but God gives the increase. All 3 of these are something HE does, not us. We have no authority to go into the heart of man (their Holy of Holies) at this time, only the Spirit of Christ, the firstfruits does.

This is what is going to be different about this last dispensation, in that we will thru the change that is coming in fullness, be able to minister to God (in man, their Holy of Holies), while those who did not come in as firstfruits unto the Lamb and God, will only minister to man (outer court realm). It's the difference between the Levitical and Melchisedek or sons of Zadok, ministries.

Christ Jesus was the physical representation of the heart/soul of the Father, as well as the Spirit/authority of Him. This is why He was nuturing and loving to some, and yet chastized some severely.

He honored His Father and Mother, which fulfilled the first commandment with promise, that His days might be long upon the earth. His days were cut short in the flesh, but perfect and therefore neverending, in the Spirit.

He left father and mother and cleaved unto His wife, giving Himself for her, that they might become one, and He might, as the Jewish wedding custom, take her "home" to His Father's house. He would never take "home" a "woman/soul" who was not a virgin. Which is why He saves/delivers our soul, making "her" white as snow. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline willieH

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2010, 12:17:07 AM »
Seems to me that the 4th "word" here,  ...preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"...  :dontknow:

Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:
It's Hebrew, so read from right to left. Then it no longer preceeds.

Without changing word order:
In the begining created God: The Word, the heavens and the earth

Good point, bro WW, and I agree to this,  ...but if you would, ...consider this:

Actually the word translated "created" into English -- #H1254 -- BARA -- can and does mean "DISPATCHED".  Something "dispatched" was already in existence... 

I also imply and maintain, that this realm, IS the LIVING KNOWLEDGE contained in the Heart of YHVH God and is an OUTWARD manifestation of that knowledge contained in His Heart.

In no way can I resolve the idea that the WORD of YHVH was "created" by Him, ...and prior to the "creation" of His WORD (just prior to the Physical creation), ...there was NO COMMUNICATION which came forth from YHVH, for His "WORD" had yet to be "created". :mnah:

It makes more sense to me, that the WORD which contains the Knowledge of Good and Evil... was within Him, yet to become OUTWARD... thus... the REVELATION of the knowledge was SECRET and UNREVEALED to any existent entity... which included the Sons of YHVH (which we are), as well as the ANGELIC population and any other existent populations of which we are not aware.

I think the notion of the "Creation" of the WORD, is dispelled within the Parable of the Lost Son -- Luke 15:11-32 -- This parable proposes that The SON was WITH the Father PRIOR to going to the "far country"... and as the "inheritance" was being DISCUSSED, ...they were COMMUNICATING with WORDS...

It is more reasonable (at least for me), to consider that the WORD of YHVH which has ALWAYS BEEN in Him and utilized BY HIM... was utilized in DISPATCHING the PHYSICAL Creation from a non-existent state to an existent state... via the POWER contained IN the WORD, which as with all other aspects of the unchanging YHVH God, ...has always been, and is without BEGINNING.

The WORD is noted as being GOD in -- John 1:1-3 -- The Scriptures also note that the WORD and YHVH are unchanging entities -- Mal 3:6 -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 --- 

If YHVH "created" His "WORD"... then the WORD is a "creation" and CANNOT be considered, GOD.   

REASON also dictates that the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH as contained WITHIN Him... is also composed of WORDS... and that the WORDS of YHVH are an inseparable portion of Himself, are and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN [without beginning] -- within His HEART.

I Hope that you understood what I just said... If not ,please propose that which was unclear, and I will try to reword my thoughts...

:Peace:

...willieH   :boyheart:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2010, 12:23:01 AM »
 :cloud9: Hard to put into words, isn't it, Willie? I agree with you've said.....and would only add that the Word that was hidden was Father's heart, which was hidden so as not to put "her" to shame, which is why righteous Joseph was of a mind to hide Mary, so as not to put her to shame.

Wisdom is put to shame by carnally minded men, whose heart is of our their father, the devil, and so only want to rape (forced authority) and murder "her". Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AM »
Actually the word translated "created" into English -- #H1254 -- BARA -- can and does mean "DISPATCHED".  Something "dispatched" was already in existence...  
Jewish scholars  believe bara is creating out of nothing. I never have seen the meaning of dispatched. I've checked BARA/H1254 is 3 lexicons. They are all basicly the same and none does mention 'dispatch'. (not claiming I own all lexicons)

1254 arB bara' {baw-raw'}
Meaning:  1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat


Quote
In no way can I resolve the idea that the WORD of YHVH was "created" by Him, ...and prior to the "creation" of His WORD (just prior to the Physical creation), ...there was NO COMMUNICATION which came forth from YHVH, for His "WORD" had yet to be "created". :mnah:
Firstly it doesn't say 'just prior'.
It just as wel could be 99999 zillion ages.
Plus something cretaed right now can also have lived eternally if put in the right dimension....

Question: Do Father, Son and HS have the same age?

Quote
It makes more sense to me, that the WORD which contains the Knowledge of Good and Evil... was within Him, yet to become OUTWARD...
So at that point Jesus was born/begotten.

Quote
REASON also dictates that the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH as contained WITHIN Him... is also composed of WORDS... and that the WORDS of YHVH are an inseparable portion of Himself, are and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN [without beginning] -- within His HEART.
There is a difference between words and The Word. The whole 4th word is little riddle of Father.
Anyway I think we are not going to agree (as usual); maybe for further understanding we should check out the other verses I listed in my first post. They also contain that same word. (untranslated) Maybe something is to learn there...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 07:39:38 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2010, 12:45:47 AM »
:cloud9: Hard to put into words, isn't it, Willie? I agree with you've said.....and would only add that the Word that was hidden was Father's heart, which was hidden so as not to put "her" to shame, which is why righteous Joseph was of a mind to hide Mary, so as not to put her to shame.

Wisdom is put to shame by carnally minded men, whose heart is of our their father, the devil, and so only want to rape (forced authority) and murder "her". Blessings....
I'll stop raping for today.....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2010, 12:49:04 AM »
Seems to me that the 4th "word" here,  ...preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"...  :dontknow:

Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:
It's Hebrew, so read from right to left. Then it no longer preceeds.

Without changing word order:
In the begining created God: The Word, the heavens and the earth

Good point, bro WW, and I agree to this,  ...but if you would, ...consider this:

Actually the word translated "created" into English -- #H1254 -- BARA -- can and does mean "DISPATCHED".  Something "dispatched" was already in existence... 

I also imply and maintain, that this realm, IS the LIVING KNOWLEDGE contained in the Heart of YHVH God and is an OUTWARD manifestation of that knowledge contained in His Heart.

In no way can I resolve the idea that the WORD of YHVH was "created" by Him, ...and prior to the "creation" of His WORD (just prior to the Physical creation), ...there was NO COMMUNICATION which came forth from YHVH, for His "WORD" had yet to be "created". :mnah:

It makes more sense to me, that the WORD which contains the Knowledge of Good and Evil... was within Him, yet to become OUTWARD... thus... the REVELATION of the knowledge was SECRET and UNREVEALED to any existent entity... which included the Sons of YHVH (which we are), as well as the ANGELIC population and any other existent populations of which we are not aware.

I think the notion of the "Creation" of the WORD, is dispelled within the Parable of the Lost Son -- Luke 15:11-32 -- This parable proposes that The SON was WITH the Father PRIOR to going to the "far country"... and as the "inheritance" was being DISCUSSED, ...they were COMMUNICATING with WORDS...

It is more reasonable (at least for me), to consider that the WORD of YHVH which has ALWAYS BEEN in Him and utilized BY HIM... was utilized in DISPATCHING the PHYSICAL Creation from a non-existent state to an existent state... via the POWER contained IN the WORD, which as with all other aspects of the unchanging YHVH God, ...has always been, and is without BEGINNING.

The WORD is noted as being GOD in -- John 1:1-3 -- The Scriptures also note that the WORD and YHVH are unchanging entities -- Mal 3:6 -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 --- 

If YHVH "created" His "WORD"... then the WORD is a "creation" and CANNOT be considered, GOD.   

REASON also dictates that the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH as contained WITHIN Him... is also composed of WORDS... and that the WORDS of YHVH are an inseparable portion of Himself, are and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN [without beginning] -- within His HEART.

I Hope that you understood what I just said... If not ,please propose that which was unclear, and I will try to reword my thoughts...

:Peace:

...willieH   :boyheart:

Great post willie  :thumbsup:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2010, 12:51:43 AM »
:cloud9: Hard to put into words, isn't it, Willie? I agree with you've said.....and would only add that the Word that was hidden was Father's heart, which was hidden so as not to put "her" to shame, which is why righteous Joseph was of a mind to hide Mary, so as not to put her to shame.

Wisdom is put to shame by carnally minded men, whose heart is of our their father, the devil, and so only want to rape (forced authority) and murder "her". Blessings....
I'll stop raping for today.....

 :sigh: ? Did you think I was talking about YOU???  :dontknow: It was a general statement of principle, ONLY.

I don't have words to express it, but I think you're both right. He was eternal, but different in form perhaps? Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2010, 01:00:35 AM »
You said that ath was mentioned also in this verse

Zechariah 6:8



This is better than an episode of columbo, ok maybe not columbo, but sherlock homes perhaps.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2010, 01:50:37 AM »
The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, C.A. Briggs Oxford Press.

I believe that Willie H. seen it properly.

The word is in many more places as well.
According to this Lexicon page 84 it is called " the mark of the accusative"(disignating)
prefixed as a rule only to nouns that are difinite.

Gen 1:1  In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853)
Gen 4:1  And AdamH121 knewH3045 (H853)
Gen 8:8  Also he sent forthH7971 (H853
Gen 29:27  FulfilH4390 herH2063 week,H7620 and we will giveH5414 thee(H853)

There is just so much yet to see! 
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2010, 05:21:29 AM »
Quote from: ww
=Tav= Cross, mark, convenant


The 'mark' is a cross?


3And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
 4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

--Eze 9




"a mark"

H8420
תּו
tâv
tawv
From H8427; a mark; by implication a signature: - desire, mark.



Ezekiel 9:6
Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.




Genesis 4:15
And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.


« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 05:26:01 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2010, 05:35:49 AM »
Quote from: willieH
In no way can I resolve the idea that the WORD of YHVH was "created" by Him, .

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 2The same was in the beginning with God.


--John 1



"the Word"

G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.



In the beginning was the mind of God...




14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

--John 1

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2010, 07:30:44 AM »
Quote from: ww
=Tav= Cross, mark, convenant
The 'mark' is a cross?
I'm just reading those things. It at least looks like  a cross.... :winkgrin:

http://aviel-8.xanga.com/729513109/the-hebrew-letter-tav-a-sign-seal-mark-and-the-tzlav-cross-of-messiah/
http://www.fact-index.com/p/ph/phoenician_alphabet.html

Something I just found when looking for a alphabet picture for you:
Aleph Tav
Herald of Messiah
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2010, 07:54:54 AM »
 I found that letter "X" TAV in the Phoenician alphabet.
It is also found in Aramaic Syriac Arabic. The Aramaic is very close the Hebrew.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2010, 08:41:06 AM »
 :cloud9: WW, wasn't it you who posted something about the nails and the tav, not long ago?  :dontknow:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2010, 08:54:36 AM »
I found that letter "X" TAV in the Phoenician alphabet.
It is also found in Aramaic Syriac Arabic. The Aramaic is very close the Hebrew.
In the message just above your is a picture. It loads very slowly so perhaps you missed it.
Hebrew and Arabic come from the same alphabet.
Also read this (click here)
But things changed during the Jewish captivity. The way their letters look and for example the names of their months. Abib --> Nisan

New picture added
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 09:03:39 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2010, 08:59:59 AM »
:cloud9: WW, wasn't it you who posted something about the nails and the tav, not long ago?  :dontknow:

Passover.
Blood placed on the doorpost.
In Hebrew a word with the meaning "the sign" or "the seal" is used for that 'action'
The Hebrew word has 3 letters.
Alef = Leader
Vav = Nail
Tav = Cross

Leader nailed to the cross.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2010, 10:32:05 AM »
If someone wants a list with all 7269 verses with Alef-Tav in it ask.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2010, 07:59:42 PM »
 :cloud9: Yes, that was it....good stuff.  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline willieH

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2010, 09:12:08 PM »
willieH: Hi WW...  :happy3:

Thanks for your reply!  :thumbsup:

Actually the word translated "created" into English -- #H1254 -- BARA -- can and does mean "DISPATCHED".  Something "dispatched" was already in existence... 

Jewish scholars  believe bara is creating out of nothing. I never have seen the meaning of dispatched. I've checked BARA/H1254 is 3 lexicons. They are all basicly the same and none does mention 'dispatch'. (not claiming I own all lexicons)

FIRST --- Even the JEWISH scholars are not expert on the exact meanings of the ANCIENT Hebrew words  -- BARA #H1254 -- appears in -- Ez 23:47 -- and is translated "DISPATCH"...  :dontknow:

SECOND --- Then, try Strongs Lexicon which DOES note within the definition of the word BARA ---  "dispatch"... and then look up the above Scripture in the KJV, which notes this definition translated into english... :nod:

In no way can I resolve the idea that the WORD of YHVH was "created" by Him, ...and prior to the "creation" of His WORD (just prior to the Physical creation), ...there was NO COMMUNICATION which came forth from YHVH, for His "WORD" had yet to be "created". :mnah:

Firstly it doesn't say 'just prior'.
[1] It just as wel could be 99999 zillion ages.
[2] Plus something cretaed right now can also have lived eternally [3] if put in the right dimension....

[1] ---  Something that IS CREATED = generated -- (1) -- has a beginning -- (2) -- cannot be considered GOD (for it is a created entity, therefore, NOT the creator) -- (3) --  Scripture notes that ALL things that were MADE were made by the "WORD" [Col 1:16 - John 1:3]... this cannot be true if the WORD itself was "MADE"...  :dontknow:

[2] --- Something "eternal" has no point of "generation/beginning"... I believe that ALL things which emerge from YHVH are ETERNAL for they have emerged from the ETERNAL!  That might sound confusing, but it is my belief that we have ALWAYS BEEN... the only thing that was "created" and had "beginning" was TIME and all manifestations IN IT...  I also believe that the entire history of MANKIND, is the LIVING knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, which is OUTWARDLY expressed in LIVING TERMS (we are alive, doing good and evil)... and which shall remain as a reference (knowledge) but CEASE as a manifestation (living progression)... 

Futhermore... In conjunction with this, I believe that we as Sons of God, are "gods" for Scripture notes this to be so -- John 10:34 -- Psalm 82:6 -- having ALWAYS existed and were present at "creation" -- Job 38:7 -- Luke 15:11-32 -- and became participants as GOD declared us to be... in the DECLARATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, which was within YHVH, and IS being EXPRESSED in LIVING terms via His Children...

This is WHY, YHVH stands inert as EVIL is done... for it must be REVEALED to its FULLEST temporal extent, and in its FULLEST temporal capacities...  :sigh: ...that GOOD might dwarf it in the ETERNAL realm in which JOY and LIFE abide forever.  :bgdance:  GOD is longsuffering this revelation -- Rom 9:22-23 -- that in REVEALING EVIL, ...the majesty of JOY can be known by all.  :cloud9:

[3] ---  :omg: This is nothing but your conjecture... Upon what basis do you assert that putting something in the "right dimension" shall determine it to be in an ETERNAL state?  Please define what you think is this, "right dimension"?  :dunno:

Question: Do Father, Son and HS have the same age?

FIRST --- the "Father, Son Holy Spirit" are emergent of YHVH God, which has no "age"... for "ages" are concerned with TIME, and TIME and all within TIME, are created entities (see Gen 1)

SECOND --- You are welcome to your present perception, and I hold no aught against you for it, for we all are (or should be) in the learning process...

But in my present observation, which is substanciated by the Scriptures, ...these are NOT 3 individual/separate beings... they are 3 manifestations of the SAME being -- YHVH God...  Just as your words are not a "separate person" from yourself...

YHVH continuously and SPECIFICALLY notes Himself ALONE, as GOD in the OT, and that NO OTHER can claim to hold the position of "GOD" -- Isaiah 43:10-11 -- Ex 20:1 --

His continuing literally uncountable usages of --  "I, me, mine, He, Him, my" etc.. -- in referring to HIMSELF, more than display a SINGULAR entity which JESUS CHRIST is also subject to -- 1 Cor 15:28

That we are made in HIS (not their) IMAGE... and that there is ONE sentient PERSON (not three) in each of us, also testifies to this truth. :nod:

It makes more sense to me, that the WORD which contains the Knowledge of Good and Evil... was within Him, yet to become OUTWARD...

So at that point Jesus was born/begotten.

JESUS the "man" (human being) was "begotten"... and WAS thoroughly human, just as are we... able to be TEMPTED, and able to DIE... both of which occured (as it does with each of us) within His experience... which are TWO THINGS that cannot happen to "GOD"! 

JESUS the "man" had a beginning... and was "MADE" -- Heb 2:9

The WORD which was the "WILL" of the FULLNESS of DIVINITY which "DWELLED" in His heart, and which He followed, manifest in action and taught from, was ETERNAL (without beginning) which was a manifestation IN HIM, of YHVH God, who was and IS, ...HIS GOD as well as ours --->

Eph 1:3 -- Blessed be the GOD and Father OF our Lord JESUS CHRIST...

REASON also dictates that the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH as contained WITHIN Him... is also composed of WORDS... and that the WORDS of YHVH are an inseparable portion of Himself, are and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN [without beginning] -- within His HEART.

There is a difference between words and The Word. The whole 4th word is little riddle of Father.

I agree... but "THE WORD" has ALWAYS existed in the heart of YHVH and IS GOD... as the Scripture notes: 

John 1:1 -- THIS statement is the TRUTH... for it IS a firm statement made in "THE WORD" about "THE WORD".

I have thoroughly enjoyed this discovery of yours WW, as well as the discussion of this thread... however...

There is NOTHING that cannot be REVEALED... that you consider this to be a "riddle" is your present perception, which in the LEARNING process, can change... 

I remain in the position I have already noted... that the WORD IS GOD and that it has NO BEGINNING or point of "creation"... and that it is an OUTWARD manifestation of YHVH God,  ...which said DIETY -- fully permeated -- Col 2:9 -- JESUS CHRIST -- "the man" -- 1 Tim 2:5

Anyway I think we are not going to agree (as usual);

You have set up this barrier bro.   :sigh:

Presupposing that we shall not agree ("as usual")... as long as you begin any conversation with me, immersed in this presupposition... then it WILL manifest during our conversation... It is our duty as seekers of the TRUTH, to remain open, irregardless of whom God has placed before us in conversation... to LEARN and be inspired to research.  :dontknow:

You are welcome to percieve as you do...  :happygrin:

As for me, ...I maintain that NO ONE is "right" except GOD, and he to whom GOD reveals that which is RIGHT... Until such happens in either of our life experiences in our encounters with the WORD... then we shall remain VEILED to what is "RIGHT"... which does not mean we are "WRONG", it means we are VEILED...  :dontknow:

That you and I do not "agree" on any given point, does not matter to me.  What matters to me is that I find the TRUTH... even though I dearly welcome agreement with my brothers and sisters, it is secondary to the TRUTH.  I spent 25 years in the system, DISAGREEING with HELL and ANNHILATION... yet fearing they might be true... I shall no longer EVER be engaged with this or any other FEAR in any capacity...

maybe for further understanding we should check out the other verses I listed in my first post. They also contain that same word. (untranslated) Maybe something is to learn there...

I completely agree with you, WW! 

It is our duty to research... and I shall look forward to further discovery concerning this mysterious word.  :thumbsup:

See there?  We agreed on something! :boogie: ...its a start, no?  :dontknow:

...willieH  :icon_king:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2010, 09:52:31 PM »
Is there is no relevence to this post regarding the 4th word? Someone, it seems found some translation for it, did they not?
 
The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, C.A. Briggs Oxford Press.

I believe that Willie H. seen it properly.

The word is in many more places as well.
According to this Lexicon page 84 it is called " the mark of the accusative"
prefixed as a rule only to nouns that are difinite. There are about 2 pages
of info on the 4th word.

Gen 1:1  In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853)
Gen 4:1  And AdamH121 knewH3045 (H853)
Gen 8:8  Also he sent forthH7971 (H853
Gen 29:27  FulfilH4390 herH2063 week,H7620 and we will giveH5414 thee(H853)

There is just so much yet to see!  And Thank you Willie H.  :Sparkletooth:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2010, 10:27:23 PM »
FIRST --- Even the JEWISH scholars are not expert on the exact meanings of the ANCIENT Hebrew words
Maybe, but Dr. Strong agrees with them and personally I never have seena  lexicon that disagree.


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  -- BARA #H1254 -- appears in -- Ez 23:47 -- and is translated "DISPATCH"...



KJVEze 23:47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.

KJVEze 23:47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and make them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.

Could just as wel mean they cut off the stones of a rock...?

KJVGen 1:1 n the beginning God dispatched the heaven and the earth.
KJVGen 1:21 And God dispatch great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
KJVJos 17:15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and dispatch for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.

To my best knowledge the complete list of bara verse:
Gen. 1:1,21,27
Gen. 2:3f
Gen. 5:1f
Gen. 6:7
Exod. 34:10
Num. 16:30
Deut. 4:32
Jos. 17:15,18
1 Sam. 2:29
Ps. 51:12
Ps. 89:13,48
Ps. 102:19
Ps. 104:30
Ps. 148:5
Eccl. 12:1
Isa. 4:5
Isa. 40:26,28
Isa. 41:20
Isa. 42:5
Isa. 43:1,7,15
Isa. 45:7f,12,18
Isa. 48:7
Isa. 54:16
Isa. 57:19
Isa. 65:17f
Jer. 31:22
Ezek. 21:24,35
Ezek. 23:47
Ezek. 28:13,15
Amos 4:13
Mal. 2:10



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SECOND --- Then, try Strongs Lexicon which DOES note within the definition of the word BARA ---  "dispatch"... and then look up the above Scripture in the KJV, which notes this definition translated into english... :nod:
I did. I can only conclude dr. Strong doesn't agree with the KJV translators. Otherwise he would have added dispatched to his list.



[1] ---  Something that IS CREATED = generated -- (1) -- has a beginning -- (2) -- cannot be considered GOD (for it is a created entity, therefore, NOT the creator) -- (3) --  Scripture notes that ALL things that were MADE were made by the "WORD" [Col 1:16 - John 1:3]... this cannot be true if the WORD itself was "MADE"...  :dontknow:

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[2] --- Something "eternal" has no point of "generation/beginning"...
We will never agree on this but imo it's possible. You think in 3 dimentions. There are more. I'll try to explain one simple on as an example.
We know heigth, length, width. If you draw a line you can walk forward an backward on it.
The other dimension is time. We can only go forward on it. Now imagine that we could go back in time. Then you could go back and meet King David. Anyway there are 5 more dimensions. In our 4 dimensions you are totally 100% correct.
But if God add dimension....  :2c:

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Futhermore... In conjunction with this, I believe that we as Sons of God, are "gods" for Scripture notes this to be so -- John 10:34 -- Psalm 82:6 -- having ALWAYS
Can't find always but indeed the were present.
Their presence only proves the allready existed. 1 year? 1 zillion years? 1 hour?


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Question: Do Father, Son and HS have the same age?

FIRST --- the "Father, Son Holy Spirit" are emergent of YHVH God, which has no "age"... for "ages" are concerned with TIME, and TIME and all within TIME, are created entities (see Gen 1)
That's just avoiding the question. I'm sure you know what I mean even if you don't like the word age/time.

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SECOND --- You are welcome to your present perception, and I hold no aught against you for it, for we all are (or should be) in the learning process...
Ha! an all knowing teacher....

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But in my present observation, which is substanciated by the Scriptures, ...these are NOT 3 individual/separate beings... they are 3 manifestations of the SAME being -- YHVH God...  Just as your words are not a "separate person" from yourself...
So the answer is "the same age"

Quote
YHVH continuously and SPECIFICALLY notes Himself ALONE, as GOD in the OT, and that NO OTHER can claim to hold the position of "GOD" -- Isaiah 43:10-11 -- Ex 20:1 --

His continuing literally uncountable usages of --  "I, me, mine, He, Him, my" etc.. -- in referring to HIMSELF, more than display a SINGULAR entity which JESUS CHRIST is also subject to -- 1 Cor 15:28
Like the plural Elohim

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That we are made in HIS (not their) IMAGE
That proves nothing. Does it exclude we are created in the image of angels?
If yes there can be other exclusions.


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There is a difference between words and The Word. The whole 4th word is little riddle of Father.

I agree... but "THE WORD" has ALWAYS existed in the heart of YHVH and IS GOD... as the Scripture notes:
Ok then I just say it differently. Just as the man/human Jesus was made, The Word was also made. Regardless if both were or weren't allready existing (in another form)

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John 1:1 -- THIS statement is the TRUTH... for it IS a firm statement made in "THE WORD" about "THE WORD".
I said my thing on that. Let's not go further with this illegal topic. Imo it has nothing to do with the topic. IF Trinity exists then we still have no proof it always existed. At least I didn't find any.

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There is NOTHING that cannot be REVEALED... that you consider this to be a "riddle" is your present perception, which in the LEARNING process, can change...
Firstly that's just the way I speak. Secondly I don't master the English as well as people who have lived 65 years in an English speaking country....

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I remain in the position I have already noted...
I already knew that before your first reply becaue I'm well aware of your favorite word "IS"  :winkgrin:


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that the WORD IS GOD and that it has NO BEGINNING or point of "creation"
Never claimed that.


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Anyway I think we are not going to agree (as usual);

You have set up this barrier bro.   :sigh:
IS that true willie :angel4:

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Presupposing that we shall not agree ("as usual")... as long as you begin any conversation with me, immersed in this presupposition... then it WILL manifest during our conversation...
Come on willie I've read enough posts of you to know fairly well how you think about certain issues.
But I repent and think that you possible agree that Kermit the frog created God. :icon_jokercolor:


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It is our duty as seekers of the TRUTH, to remain open, irregardless of whom God has placed before us in conversation... to LEARN and be inspired to research.  :dontknow:
Vanity is a sin. So I tried to avoid that sin by assuming you would not agree with me. :icon_king:

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As for me, ...I maintain that NO ONE is "right" except GOD, and he to whom GOD reveals that which is RIGHT...
And since I get zero backup from above I have to do discern (is right wrong) the truth myself.


Quote
That you and I do not "agree" on any given point, does not matter to me.
It's just that such discussions are pointless.
It's just like trying the convince Hitler that Jews are superior to Germans :happy3:

Quote
maybe for further understanding we should check out the other verses I listed in my first post. They also contain that same word. (untranslated) Maybe something is to learn there...

I completely agree with you, WW!
It takes less thatn a minute to look every occurence of any word.
Hebrew/Greek/English
Alef-Tav, the 4th word, is  7269 times in the OT. If you want the verse numbers ask.



Quote
See there?  We agreed on something! :boogie: ...its a start, no?  :dontknow:
I should leave that bottle of Bacardi closed. I'm starting to read strange things :help:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...