Author Topic: The fourth word  (Read 15875 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2010, 10:10:14 PM »
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)

For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)

Why would the angels need to be "created"?  Only things in the Creation need to be "created" for they have beginning...

It is an assumption that the angels were "created"...  :dontknow:

We, in the "finite arena" do not comprehend the ETERNAL one, as we might "suppose" speculations of it...

I believe the angels are ETERNALLY emergent of YHVH, not necessitating beginning, just as YHVH does not need or have or necessitate, a beginning...

...willieH   :cloud9:

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13147
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2010, 10:15:14 PM »
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)

For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)

I believe you will find your "angels" created here.
Gen 2:1  And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;
6635 ab'c' tsaba' {tsaw-baw'} or (fem.) ha'b'c. tseba'ah {tseb-aw-aw'}
Meaning:  1) that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host 1a) army, host 1a1) host (of organised army) 1a2) host (of angels) 1a3) of sun, moon, and stars 1a4) of whole creation 1b) war, warfare, service, go out to war 1c) service

I'm not very sure but I would edge to sun, moon, stars, planets.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13147
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2010, 10:18:27 PM »
I just notice the plural "their host"

IMO that means host of heaven and host of earth.
Then host almost sounds like "inhabitants"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8432
  • Gender: Female
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2010, 10:21:28 PM »
I find this very interesting and powerful, but I must ask, is Dr. Strong in error when he gives his meaning?
createdH1254 (H853) He shows it coupled
with created, but still it is      את  ayth (not ath)    
H853  את  ayth H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self
H226 אות 'ôth H225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal (literally or figuratively),
as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: - mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token
H225 אוּת 'ûth A primitive root; properly to come, that is, (impliedly) to assent: - consent.
I found the meaning  of male interesting sometime ago, but with that little word "ath-ayth" it has yet more to give.
I may be going wrong, any help would ne nice. I find your "fourth word find" very enlightening!
 Male H2145 (Gen.1:27) zâkâr From H2142; properly remembered, that is, a male
H2142 zâkar A primitive root; properly to mark (so as to be recognized), that is, to remember
I also found the meaning of the word "beginning" very interesting as it fills in the strenght of Col.1:17 for me
anyway.
Beginning  H7225 rê'shı̂yth  the first; (specifically a firstfruit; beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits)
(ICor. 15:20 and 23 Christ the firstfruits)
Peace and Love Through Jesus

 :cloud9: Here's another interesting thought for you on firstfruits; since beginning means firstfruits, you could read it this way....

In the firstfruits, God created the heaven/spirit and the earth/soul. Earth is feminine in nature because it takes the seed, and as such mirrors the soul.

And if you "take it up a notch", in the firstfruits that is Christ, God created the heaven (a new Spirit) and the earth (a virgin soul). Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2010, 10:21:46 PM »
Thinktank,
 
1Jn 5:7  And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:8  For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. (ASV)

1Jn 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (KJV)

Do you see the difference ? Peace and Love Through Jesus


Excellent, that's what I mean. There is holy ghost in heaven and also spirit on the Earth.
and Adam was Earth, spirit and blood.
But the second adam is (lord from heaven)Father, the word and holy ghost, who now gives us a spirit of adoption (the holy ghost who contains the father, son) that we may also be the sons of the most high God.

Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the father also.

As believers we are made in the heavanly image, no longer of the earth (spirit,water and blood), but are as the angels of heaven(Father, word Holy ghost), but Jesus said do not take them from the world, but keep them here that they may believe on me.




Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8432
  • Gender: Female
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2010, 10:27:46 PM »
 :cloud9: I don't consider myself a "universalist" but I do believe in the salvation of all because that's what the Word says. And the Holy Ghost does speak to people today, me included. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2010, 10:28:42 PM »
Thinktank,
 
1Jn 5:7  And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:8  For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. (ASV)

1Jn 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (KJV)

Do you see the difference ? Peace and Love Through Jesus


Excellent, that's what I mean. There is holy ghost in heaven and also spirit on the Earth.
and Adam was Earth, spirit and blood.
But the second adam is (lord from heaven)Father, the word and holy ghost, who now gives us a spirit of adoption (the holy ghost who contains the father, son) that we may also be the sons of the most high God.

Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the father also.

As believers we are made in the heavanly image, no longer of the earth (spirit,water and blood), but are as the angels of heaven(Father, word Holy ghost), but Jesus said do not take them from the world, but keep them here that they may believe on me.




You did not understand...the KJV is MIS translated.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13147
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2010, 10:30:16 PM »
Here's another interesting thought for you on firstfruits; since beginning means firstfruits
Or

"In the beginning" = Barasheet =
=Tav= Cross, mark, convenant
= Yod = Arm, hand, my hand, my effort, my work
= Shin = Teeth, consume, destroy
= Aleph = Ox, Bull, The first, Ultimate strength, God
= Resh = First/highest person
= Bet = House/tent

Last two letters combined: Bet+Resh = Son of
Son of God to destroy by his own hand the cross

Last two letters not combined
Head of the house to destroy by his own hand the cross

"In the beginning" = Barasheet = "The Son of God will be destroyed by His own hand on de cross"

KJVRev 13:8 ....... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8432
  • Gender: Female
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2010, 10:33:21 PM »
 :cloud9: Yes, describing Christ as the firstfruits....resh means firstfruits also.  :thumbsup: It's where Rosh Hashana comes from, the Jewish New (resh) year. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13147
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2010, 10:38:25 PM »
You did not understand...the KJV is MIS translated.
If I look it up in ISA the mistranslation is an understatement... :sigh:

From the Christian Bible.
1 John 5:

7 Then there is the Spirit that is continually testifying, because the Spirit is the Truth.

8 So there are three that are continually testifying: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these all three are the same thing

KJV1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The blue is not in the original text.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2010, 10:41:15 PM »
 Quote from Cardnial:  "Here's another interesting thought for you on firstfruits; since beginning means firstfruits, you could read it this way....

In the firstfruits, God created the heaven/spirit and the earth/soul. Earth is feminine in nature because it takes the seed, and as such mirrors the soul.

And if you "take it up a notch", in the firstfruits that is Christ, God created the heaven (a new Spirit) and the earth (a virgin soul). Blessings..."

Yes, earth is a mother, we know that because she gave birth to man/adam. I took it up a notch in my mind when I was given to see that the heavens and the earth is Christ. Thats why Col. 1 impresses me so much. Hey, maybe why that fourth letter cannot be translated is because HE IS...I AM. We are all in Christ now (Gen.1:1) and we must come out to become Christ in us 1Cor.1:6. Oh! there is so much, so much! Glory! Some one correct me should these things be going wrong. Peace and Love Through Jesus
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2010, 10:42:36 PM »
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)

For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)

Why would the angels need to be "created"?  Only things in the Creation need to be "created" for they have beginning...

It is an assumption that the angels were "created"...  :dontknow:

We, in the "finite arena" do not comprehend the ETERNAL one, as we might "suppose" speculations of it...

I believe the angels are ETERNALLY emergent of YHVH, not necessitating beginning, just as YHVH does not need or have or necessitate, a beginning...

...willieH   :cloud9:
Very well put. You friend are a blesssing to me. :thumbsup: :happygrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2010, 10:43:51 PM »
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)

For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)

Why would the angels need to be "created"?  Only things in the Creation need to be "created" for they have beginning...

It is an assumption that the angels were "created"...  :dontknow:

We, in the "finite arena" do not comprehend the ETERNAL one, as we might "suppose" speculations of it...

I believe the angels are ETERNALLY emergent of YHVH, not necessitating beginning, just as YHVH does not need or have or necessitate, a beginning...

...willieH   :cloud9:
:thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2010, 10:44:13 PM »
I believe you will find your "angels" created here.
Gen 2:1  And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;

6635 ab'c' tsaba' {tsaw-baw'} or (fem.) ha'b'c. tseba'ah {tseb-aw-aw'}
Meaning:  1) that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host 1a) army, host 1a1) host (of organised army) 1a2) host (of angels) 1a3) of sun, moon, and stars 1a4) of whole creation 1b) war, warfare, service, go out to war 1c) service


Whitewings


Gen 1:1 Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created ath  the heaven and the earth


Notice here, that in the begining God created Ath =something the heaven and the earth.

Ok but here it says Gen 2:1  And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;

Notice anything?
The first verse implies creating something and the second chapter says that creation is finished.
The Earth finished, check, heavens finished, check, Host finished uh, what?

it's like saying here is the bluerpints for my engine, and car body

Then the factory builds the engine, car body and says hey here's your wheels that you didn't order.

So maybe ath means host?

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2010, 10:46:50 PM »
You did not understand...the KJV is MIS translated.
If I look it up in ISA the mistranslation is an understatement... :sigh:

From the Christian Bible.
1 John 5:

7 Then there is the Spirit that is continually testifying, because the Spirit is the Truth.

8 So there are three that are continually testifying: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these all three are the same thing

KJV1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The blue is not in the original text.
Thanks, its Thinktank that needs to see that :grin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2010, 10:48:22 PM »

As you can see the fourth word (ath) is not translated. In fact the word is never translated in the whole Bible.
The word occurs in the following verses:
Genesis 1:1, 1:27, 1:4, 4:1, 5:22, 14:4, 19:13, 37:23, 47:23
Exodus 18:20
Leviticus 6:4, 14:40
Judges 11:27
Isaiah 1:4, 6:1, 7:12, 19:14
Zechariah 6:8
Check it yourself with for example ISA2 or here
The word is consiting of the letters Aleph and Tav. The first and last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

Seems to me that the 4th "word" here,  ...preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"...  :dontknow:

Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2010, 10:49:20 PM »
I dont think, ath means host. :sigh:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2010, 10:52:02 PM »

As you can see the fourth word (ath) is not translated. In fact the word is never translated in the whole Bible.
The word occurs in the following verses:
Genesis 1:1, 1:27, 1:4, 4:1, 5:22, 14:4, 19:13, 37:23, 47:23
Exodus 18:20
Leviticus 6:4, 14:40
Judges 11:27
Isaiah 1:4, 6:1, 7:12, 19:14
Zechariah 6:8
Check it yourself with for example ISA2 or here
The word is consiting of the letters Aleph and Tav. The first and last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

Seems to me that the 4th "word" here,  ...preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"...  :dontknow:

Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:
I like that,  and that makes me think that creating is still going on.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13147
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2010, 10:53:11 PM »
Seems to me that the 4th "word" here,  ...preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"...  :dontknow:

Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:
It's Hebrew, so read from right to left. Then it no longer preceeds.

Without changing word order:
In the begining created God: The Word, the heavens and the earth
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 11:02:09 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2010, 10:58:10 PM »
Why the semi colon?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13147
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2010, 11:04:15 PM »
Why the semi colon?
Reads easier that way.... ?
Without it may sound like The Word is the name of God.
That's interpretation. And shouldn't have done that....

Anyware there are no punctuation marks of any kind in the OT and NT.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2010, 11:08:55 PM »
Seems to me that the 4th "word" here,  ...preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"...  :dontknow:

Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:
It's Hebrew, so read from right to left. Then it no longer preceeds.

Without changing word order:
In the begining created God: The Word, the heavens and the earth

This is still only a theory though and scholars need to work out what "ath" means, for as willie said it could preceed creation and could be just a simple word like, "and".

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13147
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2010, 11:13:17 PM »
Scholars have figured it out millenia ago...

The (still) don't know what the words means.
But among Jewish scholars it accepted that the symbolic meaning is that in means that every thing is created from words. And that the alphabet was created before anything else.

The Hebrew that translates as "that" is known. (and it's not the 4th word)

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2010, 11:18:43 PM »
Why the semi colon?
Reads easier that way.... ?
Without it may sound like The Word is the name of God.
That's interpretation. And shouldn't have done that....

Anyware there are no punctuation marks of any kind in the OT and NT.


Isnt it?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13147
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2010, 11:31:22 PM »
Why the semi colon?
Reads easier that way.... ?
Without it may sound like The Word is the name of God.
That's interpretation. And shouldn't have done that....

Anyware there are no punctuation marks of any kind in the OT and NT.
Isnt it?
To my best knowledge no. Placing a comma can change the entire meaning of the verse....

Riddle of the comma,,,,,,,  :laughing7:
Look at the comma and how the meaning of the verse changes. (first variation has no comma)

#1 "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#2 "Truly I say to you , today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#3 "Truly I say to you today , you shall be with Me in Paradise"

Variation #1 is just very unclear.
Variation #2 "I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise today"
Variation #3 "I'm telling you right now (today) that you will be in paradise with me"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...