Author Topic: The fourth word  (Read 16285 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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The fourth word
« on: July 18, 2010, 04:01:45 PM »

As you can see the fourth word (ath) is not translated. In fact the word is never translated in the whole Bible.
The word occurs in the many verses. Few examples:
Genesis 1:1, 1:27, 1:4, 4:1, 5:22, 14:4, 19:13, 37:23, 47:23
Exodus 18:20
Leviticus 6:4, 14:40
Judges 11:27
Isaiah 1:4, 6:1, 7:12, 19:14
Zechariah 6:8
Check it yourself with for example ISA2 or here
The word is consiting of the letters Aleph and Tav. The first and last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.
Quote from: Rabbi Dov Ber, The Magid of Mezritch
It is known in Kabbalistic literature that the letters of the Aleph-Beis were created first of all. Thereafter, by use of the letters , the Holy One , Blessed is He, created all the worlds. This is the hidden meaning of the first phrase in Torah, "In the beginning God created Aleph Tav"____ that is, God's first act was to create the letters from Aleph to Tav(Or Torah: see p. 35)
So God created the alphabet first. Alphabet = words = Jesus???
Quote from: Talmud Yoma 28b
Abraham observed the Torah from Aleph to Tav.
Aleph to Tav = Completely/Completion

Maybe the first verse should read:
WWGen 1:1 Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created The Word the heaven and the earth

Some say "In the beginning" is better translated as "First" or "At first".
Some Jewish scholars say the word "ath" is totally meaningless.

So: ath=alphabet, Jesus, Completion (or nothing)  :dontknow:

« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 11:36:25 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2010, 05:02:04 PM »
Oh, the little mystery word?

It's applied to adam, too, in Genesis 1.

Gen 1:27  So GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) manH120 in his own image,H6754



"word-Man"?  I like that...

Offline Molly

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2010, 05:17:39 PM »
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

--John 10




28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.


 --Gen 1




God uses the Word to create everything, but this is the first time he speaks to his created being.


In Genesis 2 and 3, we will see the creation talk back. :Sparkletooth:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2010, 06:04:29 PM »
John 21:7 (CLV)

That disciple, then, whom Jesus loved, is saying to Peter,
 
                                                                            "It is the Lord!"

Simon Peter, then, hearing that it is the Lord, girds on his overcoat (for he was naked) and cast himself into the sea.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2010, 06:28:08 PM »
 :cloud9: I'm wondering why it wasn't said, He is the Alpha and the Tav, then?  :dontknow: Interesting.....thanks for posting..... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2010, 08:02:40 PM »
That's simple Cardinal.

Alpha = First letter in the Greek alphabet.
Omega = Last letter in the Greek alphabet.

Alef = First letter in the Hebrew alphabet.
Tav = Last letter in the Hebrew alphabet.

So just  a OT/NT => Hebrew/Greek thing.


Greek



Hebrew (read right to left)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 08:06:37 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2010, 08:04:30 PM »
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)

For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)

Offline Molly

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2010, 08:22:58 PM »
You cannot receive a commandment of God without language.

This little word is a celebration of language, and the ability/gift to speak with our Creator.

All creation is done through language.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2010, 08:32:25 PM »
KJVRev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

If we "translate" this to Hebrew:

WWRev 1:8  I am Alef and Tav, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Now for even more fun translate the letter to their widely accepted meaning:

WWRev 1:8  I am Strength/leader/First and Convenant/seal, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Leader and Convenant.
First Convenant....

BTW in ancient Hebrew Tav looks like  a cross. Current Hebrew letters are very diffrent from the ancient version.

Just a thought :OhNo:
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 09:36:23 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2010, 08:33:36 PM »
All creation is done through language.
And language through breath.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 08:40:03 PM »
This implies though that the father was before the word. I would have thought that the father just existed throughout eternity with his son and the holy ghost. Because otherwise God would have created God.

And father glorify my name with the that I had before the foundation of the world.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2010, 08:45:00 PM »
imo a Son is by defenition younger thatn a father.

KJVJoh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

3439 monogenh,j monogenes {mon-og-en-ace'}
Meaning:  1) single of its kind, only 1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents) 1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

And the HS.... that's an other discussion because HS seems to be a "It"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2010, 08:53:31 PM »
I thought he meant son as in, lower in the chain of command, for he could have had a daughter, but choose to use the word son. That to me means under authority of the father, despite being God. But this is something to look for when reading, and praying for understanding.

I would rather the word to have existed with God from eternity, as this new idea can greatly reduce the power and significance of Jesus.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2010, 09:01:32 PM »
And the HS.... that's an other discussion because HS seems to be a "It"
I think HS is possibly the breath of Father.

KJVGen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

5397 hm'v'n> neshamah {nesh-aw-maw'}
Meaning:  1) breath, spirit 1a) breath (of God) 1b) breath (of man) 1c) every breathing thing 1d) spirit (of man)



KJVGen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

KJVIsa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

7307 x;Wr ruwach {roo'-akh}
Meaning:  1) wind, breath, mind, spirit 1a) breath 1b) wind 1b1) of heaven 1b2) quarter (of wind), side 1b3) breath of air 1b4) air, gas 1b5) vain, empty thing 1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation) 1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour 1c2) courage 1c3) temper, anger 1c4) impatience, patience 1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented) 1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse 1c7) prophetic spirit 1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals) 1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being 1e) spirit (as seat of emotion) 1e1) desire 1e2) sorrow, trouble 1f) spirit 1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts 1f2) rarely of the will 1f3) as seat especially of moral character 1g) spirit of God 1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy 1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning 1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power 1g4) as endowing men with various gifts 1g5) as energy of life 1g6) ancient angel and later Shekinah
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2010, 09:07:07 PM »
I thought he meant son as in, lower in the chain of command, for he could have had a daughter, but choose to use the word son. That to me means under authority of the father, despite being God. But this is something to look for when reading, and praying for understanding.

I would rather the word to have existed with God from eternity, as this new idea can greatly reduce the power and significance of Jesus.
You know, both are possible at the same time....
We know only 4 dimensions. But there are theories of 10 dimensions. Simply said when someone is in a 10 dimentional world they have always existed. Be everywhere at the same time time.

But even IF it reduces Jesus sigificane; if it's really what is written.....

PS This leans a bit toward Trinity a forbidden topic on this forum.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2010, 09:18:26 PM »
I don't think that is the same holy spirit we have.

The first man Adam is of the Earth Earthy

But the second man is the lord from heaven.

In the book of revelation there is a beast that has the 7 spirits of God. I belive there is more than just one spirit, but the holy spirit is the most majestic, being so highly referenced that Jesus said blaspemy against the son shall be forgiven but blasphemy against the spirit shall not be forgiven.

Concerning that scripture I now think that its talking about people who make a deliberate conceited effort to blaspheme the holy spirit, rather than temptation or just a couple mistake, but if seek forgiveness will be forgiven, but if not will have to endure some kind of punishment.

Epsitle john says

Testify in heaven Father son and holy ghost
These three are one


also holy ghost gives us eternal life in heavenly Jerusalem, Adam did not have eternal life but had to eat from the tree of life, which gave him eternal life upon the Earth.

I Pray that the father give you "another" (not himself?)

He that is in you will complete till the day of Christ

Some Christians hear the holy ghost talk to them, I don't know if any Universalist here has?


Offline micah7:9

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2010, 09:18:51 PM »
I find this very interesting and powerful, but I must ask, is Dr. Strong in error when he gives his meaning?
createdH1254 (H853) He shows it coupled
with created, but still it is      את  ayth (not ath)    
H853  את  ayth H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self
H226 אות 'ôth H225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal (literally or figuratively),
as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: - mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token
H225 אוּת 'ûth A primitive root; properly to come, that is, (impliedly) to assent: - consent.
I found the meaning  of male interesting sometime ago, but with that little word "ath-ayth" it has yet more to give.
I may be going wrong, any help would ne nice. I find your "fourth word find" very enlightening!
 Male H2145 (Gen.1:27) zâkâr From H2142; properly remembered, that is, a male
H2142 zâkar A primitive root; properly to mark (so as to be recognized), that is, to remember
I also found the meaning of the word "beginning" very interesting as it fills in the strenght of Col.1:17 for me
anyway.
Beginning  H7225 rê'shı̂yth  the first; (specifically a firstfruit; beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits)
(ICor. 15:20 and 23 Christ the firstfruits)
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2010, 09:23:59 PM »
Some Christians hear the holy ghost talk to them, I don't know if any Universalist here has?
Do you actually know anybody the HS talks to?
There are ET, ED and UR visions. The world is full of inspired teachings. Yet lots of things they saw/heard contradict.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2010, 09:32:31 PM »
I find this very interesting and powerful, but I must ask, is Dr. Strong in error when he gives his meaning?
createdH1254 (H853) He shows it coupled
with created, but still it is      את  ayth (not ath)
The whole point is that the word is not translated. Dr. Strong never gave an English word for it. The meaning is unknown.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2010, 09:42:18 PM »
No I don't know anyone, but I don't know that many people so i'm not the best person to ask.

But concerning visions etc, a lot of them could be misinterpretated. E.g a person has a image of people in pain in a fire, they are then convinced it means hell is real, but the true message might be that God is warning them to go and help people because they are perishing and are in pain. e.g my people perish because of lack of knowledge. Symbols mean different things to different people and sometimes God uses evil things for good. Hell fire for example how much of it causes damage we'll never know, but I do know it can motivate certain inviduals to go and preach the gospel, for if you notice the ET preachers seem to be the one's who are preaching the most and God might use these people to promote the gospel in other countries because of their zeal. But again we'll never know what would happen if the entire ET community stop believing in hell, what would happen? maybe they would do more works, or less. :dontknow:
Faith would say yes they would do more works, but only if they had enough of Christ within, which might be a a hard thing, for how many would, take up their cross? Numbers might dwindle and then they do less works. :dontknow:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2010, 09:50:45 PM »
What is all that stuff on H853? and H226, H225? Im just asking because many people look to Strongs work as a reliable source of information. There have probably been doctrines built on his work. I use Youngs as well didnt look in it(not unpacked yet.) I went to your reference, very nice. :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2010, 10:03:02 PM »
Thinktank,
 
1Jn 5:7  And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:8  For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. (ASV)

1Jn 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (KJV)

Do you see the difference ? Peace and Love Through Jesus
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2010, 10:04:03 PM »
If you look at the picture in the first post you will see that the word in the red box has no Strong number associated with it.
Mr. Strong never knew the meaning of the word and just skipped it. And as far as I understand it no one knows the meaning of the word.

Of course it's everybodies own choice but I would strongly suggest THIS free program. It's a small program and runs very well on old/slow PCs.
It's the most literal translation I know of. So literal that it's kinda unreadble (at first).
But perfect for word studies like this. It has Strong numbers linked to every word.
Or more precisely every known word.... :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2010, 10:06:45 PM »
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)

For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)

I believe you will find your "angels" created here.
Gen 2:1  And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The fourth word
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2010, 10:08:30 PM »
If you look at the picture in the first post you will see that the word in the red box has no Strong number associated with it.
Mr. Strong never knew the meaning of the word and just skipped it. And as far as I understand it no one knows the meaning of the word.

Of course it's everybodies own choice but I would strongly suggest THIS free program. It's a small program and runs very well on old/slow PCs.
It's the most literal translation I know of. So literal that it's kinda unreadble (at first).
But perfect for word studies like this. It has Strong numbers linked to every word.
Or more precisely every known word.... :laughing7:

Thanks. I will give it a whirl. :laughing7:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.