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Offline Eduard

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Kolasis
« on: February 20, 2013, 01:59:04 PM »
Do we know of any Greek texts where kolasis clearly means pruning, corrective punishment instead of torture as the ETers claim?
Micah 7:7

But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

Offline rosered

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2013, 02:16:03 AM »
Do we know of any Greek texts where kolasis clearly means pruning, corrective punishment instead of torture as the ETers claim?
Dear Eduard , I just now found this and saw no one answered , This made me search and look again and I remembered a  prime example in the old testament  on the pruning , cutting off    its King Nebuchadnezzer in Daniel  4 on the  pruning and chastening  I believe     the new testament Greek is referring too    , this King   full of pride and   self was  forever changed  in the end from the beginning
 
 here  is the Greek  Word  found in two places and the root  Greek word also found in two places     
 
 
Act 4:21 So when they had further threatened them , they let them go , finding nothing how they might punish2849 them, because of the people: for all [men] glorified God for that which was done .
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished2849 :
Strong's G2849 - kolazō
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings

2) to curb, check, restrain

3) to chastise, correct, punishment

4) to cause to be punished

Strong's G2851 - kolasis    above is the root word   of this greek  word
1) correction, punishment, penalty

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment2851: but the righteous into life eternal.
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment2851. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Dan 4:15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and [let] his portion [be] with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
Dan 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it;


yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and [let] his portion [be] with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;
Dan 4:26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.
 












Dan 4:31 While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, "O King Nebuchadnez'zar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you, 

and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field; and you shall be made to eat grass like an ox; and seven times shall pass over you, until you have learned that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will."


Dan 4:33 Immediately the word was fulfilled upon Nebuchadnez'zar. He was driven from among men, and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles' feathers, and his nails were like birds' claws.At the end of the days

I, Nebuchadnez'zar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives for ever; for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; 

Dan 4:37 Now I, Nebuchadnez'zar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven; for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to abase.
 

 
 I hope this helps   some 
 it was good to look at them  again , Thanks for your  question  :HeartThrob:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Eduard

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 02:28:52 PM »
That was great :thumbsup:
Micah 7:7

But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

Offline rosered

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2013, 06:57:02 PM »
That was great :thumbsup:
       God  bless you Eduard ,
 
   I think the UR   message is this  ,  even though the tree was hewn down  and destroyed , it had a new   "tree"  / life  come up from the roots ,  a  King whom now  glorified God
  many places mankind is referred to as trees
   and Jesus is the tree of Life to me , because He is the Wisdom of God sent to mankind  , whose leaves are  for the  healing of nations     ,  where as the fig tree  leaves  only covered  the nakeness originally .
 
  :winkgrin:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline JBerton

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2013, 07:55:56 PM »
In my mind, torture and torment are two different words.  I often see them used interchangeably, but I define torture as something that serves no purpose but to afford sadistic pleasure for the torturer, and is therefore evil.  They way I see it in the scriptures, torment seems to suggest more of an anguish which serves to motivate us towards correction.  We are often tormented in many different ways.  Sometimes we suffer mental anguish when we make a poor decision, and at other times we suffer physical pain when we have an accident due to human error.  Torture, on the other hand, is inflicted by someone else upon us, and is unjust and inhumane.  Torture does not define the love of God.  Torment (anguish) is used by God to correct us, either here in this life, or in the figurative, spiritual "lake of fire."  That's the way I see it. :2c:
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Offline urpilgrim

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2013, 09:18:33 PM »
Borrowed from a friend on FB 
"The only word in the Gospels for "punishment" with regard to God punishing evildoers is "kolasis," which according to Aristotle, who knew Greek word meanings better than anybody who ever walked the planet, said that "kolasis" is the kind of punishment which "is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer," which means it is for the betterment or improvement of the person being punished. This is contrasted with "timoria," which Aristotle said is the kind of punishment which is "inflicted in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction." (Rhet. 1369b13).

 The Gospels reveal a God who never punishes to gratify Himself, but rather punishes to heal and help the evildoers improve and be restored. William Barclay, who was professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at Glasgow University and the author of many Christian commentaries and books, including a translation of the New Testament and the very popular Daily Study Bible Series, traces the word "kolasis" back, through Plato, to an original term used to describe the pruning of trees back to allow fuller and healthier growth. Revenge motives are "timoria," and only gratify the lust for an eye for an eye payback. But "kolasis" motives are always looking for a way to restore and repair that which is lost and broken.

 In his Commentary on Matthew 10.2, Origen, my favorite early church father, explained the "the weeping and gnashing of teeth" of those in fiery judgment as a form of repentance and sort of anger of the sinners against themselves, while in the furnace they are being purified. The Lord is the great physician with His motive for His surgical punishments always being restorative "kolasis." God's modus operandi is always to overcome evil with good. Loving well is the best revenge! Even the Lord's punishments are healing. Halleleujah!"
 Richard Murray
If believing that God is loving enough, powerful enough, and wise enough to save ALL of His creation makes me a heretic, then sign me up!

Offline rosered

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2013, 09:24:27 PM »
In my mind, torture and torment are two different words.  I often see them used interchangeably, but I define torture as something that serves no purpose but to afford sadistic pleasure for the torturer, and is therefore evil.  They way I see it in the scriptures, torment seems to suggest more of an anguish which serves to motivate us towards correction.  We are often tormented in many different ways.  Sometimes we suffer mental anguish when we make a poor decision, and at other times we suffer physical pain when we have an accident due to human error.  Torture, on the other hand, is inflicted by someone else upon us, and is unjust and inhumane.  Torture does not define the love of God.  Torment (anguish) is used by God to correct us, either here in this life, or in the figurative, spiritual "lake of fire."  That's the way I see it. :2c:
 

 Great observation   !!!     agreed !
torment is failure to  me  :winkgrin:

Strong's G929 - basanismos βασανισμός
Transliteration
basanismos
 Pronunciation

bä-sä-nē-smo's (Key)

 
Part of Speech
masculine noun

 Root Word (Etymology)

From βασανίζω (G928)
 
TDNT Reference
1:561,96
 Vines
View Entry
 
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to torture, a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal2) torment, torture

a) the act of tormenting

b) the state or condition of those tormented


Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 6 AV — torment 6 Thayer's Lexicon (Help)

Concordance Results Using KJV Strong's G929 - basanismos

Strong's Number G929 matches the Greek βασανισμός (basanismos), which occurs 6 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
Page 1 / 1 (Rev 9:5 - Rev 18:15)
Rev 9:5 And 2532 to them 846 it was given 1325 that 3363 0 they should 615 0 not 3363 kill 615 them 846, but 235 that 2443 they should be tormented 928 five 4002 months 3376: and 2532 their 846 torment929 [was] as 5613 the torment929 of a scorpion 4651, when 3752 he striketh 3817 a man 444.



Rev 14:11 And 2532 the smoke 2586 of their 846 torment929 ascendeth up 305 for 1519 ever 165 and ever 165: and 2532 they have 2192 no 3756 rest 372 day 2250 nor 2532 night 3571, who 3588 worship 4352 the beast 2342 and 2532 his 846 image 1504, and 2532 whosoever 1536 receiveth 2983 the mark 5480 of his 846 name 3686.



Rev 18:7 How much 3745 she hath glorified 1392 herself 1438, and 2532 lived deliciously 4763 , so much 5118 torment929 and 2532 sorrow 3997 give 1325 her 846: for 3754 she saith 3004 in 1722 her 846 heart 2588, I sit 2521 a queen 938, and 2532 am 1510 no 3756 widow 5503, and 2532 shall see 1492 no 3364 sorrow 3997.



Rev 18:10 Standing 2476 afar 3113 off 575 for 1223 the fear 5401 of her 846 torment929, saying 3004 , Alas 3759, alas 3759, that great 3173 city 4172 Babylon 897, that mighty 2478 city 4172! for 3754 in 1722 one 3391 hour 5610 is 2064 0 thy 4675 judgment 2920 come 2064 .


Rev 18:15 The merchants 1713 of these things 5130, which 3588 were made rich 4147 by 575 her 846, shall stand 2476 afar 3113 off 575 for 1223 the fear 5401 of her 846 torment929, weeping 2799 and 2532 wailing 3996
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 09:33:41 PM by rosered »
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline rosered

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2013, 09:27:53 PM »
Borrowed from a friend on FB 
"The only word in the Gospels for "punishment" with regard to God punishing evildoers is "kolasis," which according to Aristotle, who knew Greek word meanings better than anybody who ever walked the planet, said that "kolasis" is the kind of punishment which "is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer," which means it is for the betterment or improvement of the person being punished. This is contrasted with "timoria," which Aristotle said is the kind of punishment which is "inflicted in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction." (Rhet. 1369b13).

 The Gospels reveal a God who never punishes to gratify Himself, but rather punishes to heal and help the evildoers improve and be restored. William Barclay, who was professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at Glasgow University and the author of many Christian commentaries and books, including a translation of the New Testament and the very popular Daily Study Bible Series, traces the word "kolasis" back, through Plato, to an original term used to describe the pruning of trees back to allow fuller and healthier growth. Revenge motives are "timoria," and only gratify the lust for an eye for an eye payback. But "kolasis" motives are always looking for a way to restore and repair that which is lost and broken.

 In his Commentary on Matthew 10.2, Origen, my favorite early church father, explained the "the weeping and gnashing of teeth" of those in fiery judgment as a form of repentance and sort of anger of the sinners against themselves, while in the furnace they are being purified. The Lord is the great physician with His motive for His surgical punishments always being restorative "kolasis." God's modus operandi is always to overcome evil with good. Loving well is the best revenge! Even the Lord's punishments are healing. Halleleujah!"
 Richard Murray
  yes ,    a judge not unless you be judged   sererio    !
 weeping to me is because they fail the test and gnashing of teeth is when the anger of the soul wants revenge in the beastly carnal nature"   to harm "[mark of the beast ] types
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline JBerton

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2013, 11:33:37 PM »
I have often said lately that "weeping and gnashing of teeth" does not describe someone being burned in a literal fire, as the ET's believe.  That would be more like "screaming and thrashing about."  Weeping and gnashing of teeth sounds to me like deep sorrow and regret.  And I can certainly see anger in that scenario too.    :2c:
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Offline lomarah

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2013, 11:39:09 PM »
Maybe they are gnashing their teeth because they're mad at Father for saving buddhists, muslims, homosexuals and catholics? 

 :laughing7:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline JBerton

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2013, 11:44:22 PM »
Maybe they are gnashing their teeth because they're mad at Father for saving buddhists, muslims, homosexuals and catholics? 

 :laughing7:

 :laugh:

Maybe they are weeping because they have to spend eternity with those low-lives. :LH:
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Offline lomarah

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2013, 12:07:19 AM »
 :LH:  :msealed:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2013, 01:00:51 AM »
I've really never known a spiritually reborn believer, ET or otherwise,  who wouldn't be happy over any sort of lost sheep being found and cleaned up by the Good Shepherd and brought into the fold.  They probably do exist here and there, but I've known thousands of ET believers.    :dunno2:

Offline rosered

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2013, 01:09:51 AM »
I have often said lately that "weeping and gnashing of teeth" does not describe someone being burned in a literal fire, as the ET's believe.  That would be more like "screaming and thrashing about."  Weeping and gnashing of teeth sounds to me like deep sorrow and regret.  And I can certainly see anger in that scenario too.    :2c:

  Thanks , I got the  idea from these two scriptures  , of it being more of   anger ,

 a soulish emotion    to bite and devour  [beastly nature ] and not of the Spirit of God

weeping in dissapointment and , failure     of loss     


  we are to eat Christ Body and drink His blood that we have LIFE in us 

Psa 35:16 With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.


Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.  

  and another great example to me   
is this one 


    in this For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 


 Gal 5:14   For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 


 Gal 5:15   But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 
 Gal 5:16  [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh


 Gal 5:17   For the flesh lusts  against the Spirit,


 and the Spirit against the flesh:

and these are contrary the one to the other:

so that you cannot do the things that you would. 

 
  I have always tried to compare scripture to   other scriptures , its the only way I can grasp   some things    honestly  :sigh:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline rosered

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2013, 01:31:24 AM »
I've really never known a spiritually reborn believer, ET or otherwise,  who wouldn't be happy over any sort of lost sheep being found and cleaned up by the Good Shepherd and brought into the fold.  They probably do exist here and there, but I've known thousands of ET believers.    :dunno2:
     Hi Jab ,
 I   was writing this when you wrote   and have to  agree ,    alot of Eters     do not understand the     concept God is Love , they   see God as more of  a destroyer
 
  I remember seeing that too  when I first read the Bible and was taught this "fear "   God in pulpits 

   But after reading how even King Neb was saved by destroying his fleshy mind  / kingdom     only to restore him to a blessed state of  usefulness to God   , I see it even more as a merciful God and   saviour    to each individual    according to His own will and desire   
   King Neb suffered  loss   , and was  changed   and  restored  as a vessel  of honor   after  passing over him seven times   

  the irony of it is he judged  7 times to turn up the furnace     and that what he got  back in judgment   the same fire  in His own soulish flesh the Woman who sits
   also he was King of Babylon    ,   and Babylon is destroyed   by the beast  heart      for its  was Gods will to do this      and burn her flesh with fire   within  King Nebuchadnezzer   !!
 
 Dan 4:16   Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

 Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
 
 
Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
 
   This is how I can see the Word of God    being for all time the SAME  WORD  IN POWER , of was , and is and will be  ,  this King as an example and I see Revaelation as a key/unveiling  that unlocks many mysteries to the Bible / Word of God
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline sheila

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2013, 05:11:48 PM »
interesting side  Tor[ah] =learning,instruction....tor-ment....=learning instruction of mind.............

......such as scripture such as this...turn such a one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh.....

    that he be taught Not to blaspheme=painful lessons we learn from

Offline JBerton

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Re: Kolasis
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2013, 10:01:47 PM »
I've really never known a spiritually reborn believer, ET or otherwise,  who wouldn't be happy over any sort of lost sheep being found and cleaned up by the Good Shepherd and brought into the fold.  They probably do exist here and there, but I've known thousands of ET believers.    :dunno2:
     Hi Jab ,
 I   was writing this when you wrote   and have to  agree ,    alot of Eters     do not understand the     concept God is Love , they   see God as more of  a destroyer
 
  I remember seeing that too  when I first read the Bible and was taught this "fear "   God in pulpits 

   But after reading how even King Neb was saved by destroying his fleshy mind  / kingdom     only to restore him to a blessed state of  usefulness to God   , I see it even more as a merciful God and   saviour    to each individual    according to His own will and desire   
   King Neb suffered  loss   , and was  changed   and  restored  as a vessel  of honor   after  passing over him seven times   

  the irony of it is he judged  7 times to turn up the furnace     and that what he got  back in judgment   the same fire  in His own soulish flesh the Woman who sits
   also he was King of Babylon    ,   and Babylon is destroyed   by the beast  heart      for its  was Gods will to do this      and burn her flesh with fire   within  King Nebuchadnezzer   !!
 
 Dan 4:16   Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

 Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
 
 
Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
 
   This is how I can see the Word of God    being for all time the SAME  WORD  IN POWER , of was , and is and will be  ,  this King as an example and I see Revaelation as a key/unveiling  that unlocks many mysteries to the Bible / Word of God

Awesome Rose!
 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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