Should we trust what bible says?

[WhiteWings]

I think know the world would have been a much better place with proper translations. Far less denominations and at least twice as much Christians.

Isn't it possible that this is the way God wants it?

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." John 12:40

He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.  Mat 13:11

I can't of course in no way prove that's how He (not) likes it to be. The verse you quoted and similar verses seem to say so.
But even then it's odd. First God is blinding the OT Jews. He sends Jesus who starts teaching with the aid of the HS. During His ministry the blinding seems to stay in full effect.
Jesus leaves and sends another Comforter. And at the same time God continues His blinding, hardening and binding to disobedience.
So on one hand we have Jesus teaching how perfect the Bible is and behind the scenes (most of) humanity is told it's all nonsense, because that's what blinding basicly means.

Anyway following that reasoning everyone is right in every situation.
Some say the HS only approach is being blinded.
Others say the opposite. While other are somewher in between. Viewed from that angle nothing can be discussed. It even makes this forum a waste of time because qouting verses potentially is just proving how blinded 'you' are.

 

[Molly]

I think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra

The scriptures about the HS leading us into all truth have to do predominantly with the Bible because the truth contained in the Bible is the first thing God wants us to know.  Everything else [how we live our lives, what we see in the world around us, etc] falls out from that.

1 Thessalonians 2:13: "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.



Didn't the HS write the Bible?

2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..


"given by inspiration of God"

G2315
θεόπνευστος
theopneustos
theh-op'-nyoo-stos
From G2316 and a presumed derivative of G4154; divinely breathed in: - given by inspiration of God.

[jabcat]

I'd like to say yes, God wants certain people blinded.  But He also wants certain people to see.  All for an overall, ultimate good [perfect] purpose.  We've had many bad translations.  Through it all, the thread of truth has remained.  IMO, it's getting clearer.  I believe God is showing more in recent years - building to something?  Is it possible He may be wanting more people to see, and for those that do, to see more clearly?

To me, saying translations, word meanings, etc., don't matter, doesn't make sense.  Of course we need the Holy Spirit to enlighten us - in whatever we do. I don't know that I've ever really seen anyone on this forum dispute that.  But this analogy comes to mind.  I can stand in the middle of traffic and say I'm trusting the Holy Spirit to deliver me.  Or, I can take the Holy Spirit's leading, and get my rear end out of the middle of the road.  Same thing.  I can read a JW version, or a version from the 1600's that said "thou shalt commit adultery", and teach others it doesn't matter as well - and have a more blinded view of things.  Or I can use what the Spirit is giving us now and seek and learn - along with praying for guidance/revelation, being open to His leading - and hopefully be led into things that are His will for me to see.

To whom much is given, much is required.

Keep the baby.

[Molly]

Anyway following that reasoning everyone is right in every situation.
Some say the HS only approach is being blinded.
Others say the opposite. While other are somewher in between. Viewesd from that angle bothing can be discussed. It even makes this forum a waste of time because qouting verses potentially is just proving how blinded 'you' are.

No it doesn't mean everyone is right.  In any given disagreement, only one is right or both are wrong.

We work very hard at trying to get it right, even if only partially right.  But we are given the hope that eventually we will get it all right if God allows.

And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.  Heb 6:3

[jabcat]

I really think (besides your statement of "there's no bad translation, Molly" - are you sure you don't want to re-think that?   ) Tony and Molly are actually very much on the same page.  I believe there's much agreement there.  I may be mistaken, as apparently some others took it a bit differently - but I also thought Eaglesway's post was basically saying the same thing - the scriptures are important, understanding them/seeing them clearly is important - just that the Spirit's revealing of them [quickening] is vital.  With perhaps some exception,  I really think (given some minor variance) several folks are actually saying the same things...

[Molly]

lol.  I say that from experience [no bad translation] because it was the JW's trying to force me to believe that John1:1 KJV version was mistranslated and really said 'the word was a god' [no caps] that drove me into my first study of the Greek language.

So how can that be a bad thing?

[WhiteWings]

I think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra

The scriptures about the HS leading us into all truth have to do predominantly with the Bible because the truth contained in the Bible is the first thing God wants us to know.

Doesn't that mean God wants us to read what He (trough the HS) inspired. And not the twist "the church" gave to the true Bible?

I'm not even sure the HS will really add things that are not in the Bible. Unlocking and/or showing greater depth aren't adding things. It's more like cleaning that glass darkly a bit more.

[WhiteWings]

Anyway following that reasoning everyone is right in every situation.
Some say the HS only approach is being blinded.
Others say the opposite. While other are somewher in between. Viewesd from that angle bothing can be discussed. It even makes this forum a waste of time because qouting verses potentially is just proving how blinded 'you' are.

No it doesn't mean everyone is right.  In any given disagreement, only one is right or both are wrong.

Besides intelectual capacity etc, having a wrong translation is at least part of those mistakes.

[jabcat]

lol.  I say that from experience [no bad translation] because it was the JW's trying to force me to believe that John1:1 KJV version was mistranslated and really said 'the word was a god' [no caps] that drove me into my first study of the Greek language.

So how can that be a bad thing?

I see that more as God working all things together for good, or even "what satan intended for evil, God intended for good" - rather than, the JW translation (just for instance - I believe there's many more) is a good translation/not a bad one.

I certainly don't know it all, don't claim to.  But I strongly believe it's important to be as accurate as we can and as God gives it to be.  Not that we don't see through a glass darkly, or often misunderstand, or need revelations, etc....but it just looks like to me that He's clearing some things up for us.  Maybe it has to do with the coming harvest, I don't know.  Or, on the other hand, when every eye sees Him in His full glory, I think that will clear things up pretty quickly, too!   

[Molly]

I think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra

The scriptures about the HS leading us into all truth have to do predominantly with the Bible because the truth contained in the Bible is the first thing God wants us to know.

Doesn't that mean God wants us to read what He (trough the HS) inspired. And not the twist "the church" gave to the true Bible?

I'm not even sure the HS will really add things that are not in the Bible. Unlocking and/or showing greater depth aren't adding things. It's more like cleaning that glass darkly a bit more.

The church as it exists today is  an incubator for babies, and a way for more mature Christians to communicate with each other.   Thanks to youtube and internet, radio and tv,  we can attend hundreds of different churches simultaneously these days and pick out what feeds us.

It's all about feeding his sheep.  Lots of food around--everywhere.

[jabcat]

Doesn't that mean God wants us to read what He (trough the HS) inspired. And not the twist "the church" gave to the true Bible?

I'm not even sure the HS will really add things that are not in the Bible. Unlocking and/or showing greater depth aren't adding things. It's more like cleaning that glass darkly a bit more.

In my humble opinion, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

[jabcat]

Thanks to youtube and internet, radio and tv,  we can attend hundreds of different churches simultaneously these days and pick out what feeds us.

It's all about feeding his sheep.  Lots of food around--everywhere.

I agree.  However, I also don't know that there's ever been a time when there's so much 'garbage' so readily available to be consumed and spread around like manure.  Sometimes I personally find it very disheartening to see things that are being taught.  There are a LOT of whispering voices of deceit - many within the "church".

That's why we're to test all things, search, seek, and yes, above all, be in close relationship with the Lord, loving Him, living in Him, being open to and seeking His leading. 

[Molly]

Anyway following that reasoning everyone is right in every situation.
Some say the HS only approach is being blinded.
Others say the opposite. While other are somewher in between. Viewesd from that angle bothing can be discussed. It even makes this forum a waste of time because qouting verses potentially is just proving how blinded 'you' are.

No it doesn't mean everyone is right.  In any given disagreement, only one is right or both are wrong.

Besides intelectual capacity etc, having a wrong translation is at least part of those mistakes.

Sure.  But if God wants me to know it, he will eventually give it to me.  I can read 10 or 20 different translations online today including the original, and I often do, but, it's up to him whether I understand any of it.

I still remember the day I could first read Paul without my eyes rolling back in my head.

It was like a miracle. rofl

[Molly]

Thanks to youtube and internet, radio and tv,  we can attend hundreds of different churches simultaneously these days and pick out what feeds us.

It's all about feeding his sheep.  Lots of food around--everywhere.

I agree.  However, I also don't know that there's ever been a time when there's so much 'garbage' so readily available to be consumed and spread around like manure.  Sometimes I personally find it very disheartening to see things that are being taught.  There are a LOT of whispering voices of deceit - many within the "church".

That's why we're to test all things, search, seek, and yes, above all, be in close relationship with the Lord, loving Him, living in Him, being open to and seeking His leading.

Lots of garbage, too, yes.  That's where the HS comes in.

[jabcat]

Lots of garbage, too, yes.  That's where the HS comes in.

Yes.  It also brings up the point though, that sometimes folks claiming to be full of/led by the Holy Spirit, either discount the scriptures in many ways, or twist them to their own imagination and/or personal gain.  (I know you don't disagree with this) but that's one reason I believe it's important to have the written Word (as accurately translated as we can get it) as a standard by which to check things and go by - all the while, looking to the Holy Spirit to bring the truth/understanding/reality of it to us.  As has been said many times - they work together. 

[Molly]

Lots of garbage, too, yes.  That's where the HS comes in.

Yes.  It also brings up the point though, that sometimes folks claiming to be full of/led by the Holy Spirit, either discount the scriptures in many ways, or twist them to their own imagination and/or personal gain.  (I know you don't disagree with this) but that's one reason I believe it's important to have the written Word (as accurately translated as we can get it) as a standard by which to check things and go by - all the while, looking to the Holy Spirit to bring the truth/understanding/reality of it to us.  As has been said many times - they work together.

well, you say 'accurately translated' and I agree with that goal but in some cases this is not as easy as it looks.    Certainly in the case of the word 'Hell' or 'forever' you can point at something definitive and say this was not accurately translated, but beyond simple word definitions you are getting into an area that can be easily disputed as to which translation is better.  There are people here who love certain translations that I cannot even read.

Bottom line: 

God works with each one of us personally.
HS guides us into all truth.

But getting from point A to point B is different for different people.  Jesus, who is the author and perfector of our faith, will get us there because that is his job. lol

[WhiteWings]

well, you say 'accurately translated' and I agree with that goal but in some cases this is not as easy as it looks.    Certainly in the case of the word 'Hell' or 'forever' you can point at something definitive and say this was not accurately translated, but beyond simple word definitions you are getting into an area that can be easily disputed as to which translation is better.

Sure translations have their limits. I think that's one point we agree on because both of us quote very often from concordances to show alternative word meanings.

It's for that reason I wrote many times (not on this thread) that it's impossible to translate between languages and retaining all depth. Add to the fact that everything needs to be understood with a 2000 year old Jewish mindset. Even harder to translate. That's why I'm so fond on "my" idiom and LoF threads and all sort of, lets call it, cultural threads (like real life wedding feasts). I know some/many will see that as an attempt to promote Judadism. That's not what I'm trying to do. Likely my views don't fit in a single denomination but if I must pick one it likely would be a Messanic one.

To summarize my points:
- Perfect translations will never exist; but I see room for improvement.
- Cultural understanding/setting is very important.
- I'm in now way trying to minimize/ridicule the part HS had, has, and will have in all of this.
- Anchor points (Scripture) are needed because satan is an expert in playing tricks on the mind.

[lomarah]

well, you say 'accurately translated' and I agree with that goal but in some cases this is not as easy as it looks.    Certainly in the case of the word 'Hell' or 'forever' you can point at something definitive and say this was not accurately translated, but beyond simple word definitions you are getting into an area that can be easily disputed as to which translation is better.

Sure translations have their limits. I think that's one point we agree on because both of us quote very often from concordances to show alternative word meanings.

It's for that reason I wrote many times (not on this thread) that it's impossible to translate between languages and retaining all depth. Add to the fact that everything needs to be understood with a 2000 year old Jewish mindset. Even harder to translate. That's why I'm so fond on "my" idiom and LoF threads and all sort of, lets call it, cultural threads (like real life wedding feasts). I know some/many will see that as an attempt to promote Judadism. That's not what I'm trying to do. Likely my views don't fit in a single denomination but if I must pick one it likely would be a Messanic one.

To summarize my points:
- Perfect translations will never exist; but I see room for improvement.
- Cultural understanding/setting is very important.
- I'm in now way trying to minimize/ridicule the part HS had, has, and will have in all of this.
- Anchor points (Scripture) are needed because satan is an expert in playing tricks on the mind.

 

I love the idioms and cultural understandings that you've posted too, I find them very enlightening. :)

[eaglesway]

I think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra.
But that doesn't say anything about the Bible itself. Neither did Jesus in any way was trying to minimize the OT. In fact He was teaching directly from it. Ok He was inpired. True. But there was nothing in Jesus teachings that claimed the Bible wasn't of great importance. He even said He came to explain the OT. Meaning that according to Jesus the OT was the real deal. Yes, millions, at that time misunderstood things. True. But still that doesn't mean that for that reason the OT should be viewed as a book that leads to error.
In NT times billions have been in error. Several reasons for that. But on eof them is most certainly (imo) bad translations.
Many, all?, agree satan mixes a lots of truth with a tiny bit of venom that causes disaster. Jesus used bread and leaven to explain how error can infect things. Aren't the wrongly translated words the leaven/poison?
Why all that fuss about satan? No problem with that guy. Just listen to his teachings. The HS has the abillity to correct every mistake.

Everyone his/her own thoughts but imo it's not what the Bible/Jesus teaches. Neither did Jesus teach the HS is  replacement for the written word.
Nope. By that I'm not saying the HS is useless, should be ignored, etc etc.
I'm just saying the written word and the HS are on the same team. They aren't replacing one another.
The HS is a great teacher of what is written down in the Bible.
The Book itself is a great tool exposing lying spirits that claim to be the HS. Meaning the person that recieved something in a vision/dream/etc can should verify with the written Bible. And for that a good translation is a big bonus.

Paul said the word of God is the "sword of the Spirit". IMO- The Holy Spirit has a lot to do with this topic.

I never said the HS has no big place in all of this. Why did Paul waste his time writing his part of the Bible? He could have his time for more fruitful things. Or did Paul see great value in the written word? Why did the HS inspire all those persons that together wrote the Bible?

The ideal being that it is the Holy Spirit that will guide us into all truth(as Jesus said)

Didn't Jesus also teach the Scriptures are of great value?

.....teach us through the pitfalls of man's corruption.....put salt on it(the word) and us(the body) so that we can sort it out through fellowship and midrash. Certainly, no other spirit is behind the efforts to restore the truth of the "writings/scrolls"(biblos).

That's just the point EW. Restoring the truth isn't done by corrupted translations.  Assuming translations are inspired (I'm not so sure about that) and there are so many lying spirits could have been part of the process.

Since Peter says these words are given to no individual man's private interpretation

Thanks for making my point EW. Translating things wrong (on purpose) is private interpretation.

because the were "breathed" by the spirit through men set apart for that purpose..... and since Jesus says the Spirit will "bring all things to remembrance", I think the Spirit is the only means by which the word can be made pure(core intent- becoming like God through fellowship in the Spirit of Christ).

Ok, but that still doesn't say/mean anything goes translation wise.

IMO If there is no restoration of truth or unity of the faith possible, then the word of God is full of plainly told lies(not mistranslations) about itself and is a waste of time beyond its historical, literary and philosophical value.

I think the truth is restoring itself. Church is loosing it's grip, scholarship improves, and new (actually ancient) ways of looking at Scripture are gaining momentum.

EW remember that a few months back I wrote AND NOT OR?
That's what I'm trying to explain.

WW in this post, I responded to a statement you made.... "I think the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with this topic".

Really, a very simple statement at that point in the thread :o)   

As to all the areas in which we agree. Excellent.

I was not addressing anyone's (yours or mine or anyone elses) entire belief system on a point by point basis. You made a simple statement. I gave a direct response in a spirit of conversation. We have made each others points well, if that is of any value.

The Holy Spirit and the written word are INTRINSICALLY RELATED and inseparable.

[shawn]

Lots of garbage, too, yes.  That's where the HS comes in.

Yes.  It also brings up the point though, that sometimes folks claiming to be full of/led by the Holy Spirit, either discount the scriptures in many ways, or twist them to their own imagination and/or personal gain.  (I know you don't disagree with this) but that's one reason I believe it's important to have the written Word (as accurately translated as we can get it) as a standard by which to check things and go by - all the while, looking to the Holy Spirit to bring the truth/understanding/reality of it to us.  As has been said many times - they work together.

I would agree.  Having translations that are as accurate as possible is indeed important.  I just don't believe God is limited by our translations.  I don't believe God throws his hands up and says...welp they are reading the NIV...I can't work with that.  It boils down to me trusting God more than my ability to choose the correct translation.  I just have learned to trust him more than I trust me.  I have studied my way into all sorts of beliefs.  I have let pastors lead me into paths of confusion.  Today, I have one source of peace and that is understanding that God gives me for today.  I know it's different now, and I can't quite put words to why.  What I know is that I don't have perfect understanding.  What I also know is that I don't need perfect understanding to seek his face, and to trust Christ as the perfecter of my faith.  I know what God has revealed to me about himself.  And against that I compare all information.  That sorts through truth from fiction.

[eaglesway]

Shawn said......... "I would agree.  Having translations that are as accurate as possible is indeed important.  I just don't believe God is limited by our translations.  I don't believe God throws his hands up and says...welp they are reading the NIV...I can't work with that. "

Ohhhhhhh No! hahahahahah  LOLOLOL hehheh.... man thats so funny cuz it is so true 

[jabcat]

I'm not sure I can say this without without sounding argumentative.  There's much agreement, so please see this as digging a little more, even myself having a question or two about the following that I'm not certain about.

The Spirit leads us into all truth.  Yes, the scriptures say that, so I must believe it.  However, it's puzzling, because I don't believe any of us as individuals have all truth.  And certainly, does it appear humanity as a whole has all truth?  Maybe so, if it could all be sifted through, the best kept, and synthesized to make one belief system.  But right now, it appears so scattered - so many views, so much blindness.

So let's ponder that maybe up until now, God has led us into all the truth He wants us to have - up to this point.  Let's also consider He may be opening up new information/clarity every day for us now, beginning to open doors of Godly knowledge that is progressive - perhaps leading up to a next phase of His Plan - the harvest perhaps.  Still, all "testable" by His written Word (I'm not talking about wild imaginations).

Given all that, if people are encouraged, and we're individually satisfied to, just keep reading whatever translations are popularly available - either older versions with all their "hells and forevers" - or newer/distorted versions with their "mushy gospel" generalizations/feel-good doctrines - how responsibly are we "handling the word of truth"?  (2 Tim. 2:15).  What I mean by this is, if God is opening new doors of understanding, cleaning off the dark glass just a little more for us, offering more clarity;  not "just" through the leading of His Spirit relationally (WHICH IS VITAL!), but also by giving us new information, people who study out that information AS LED BY THE SPIRIT and share it with us - shouldn't we embrace that?  I'd suggest it's played a role in many of us having had our veil lifted just a little bit and come into the understanding of UR, etc. - some of those "aha" moments, where someone said "gehenna means X, not Y", and the Holy Spirit quickened that to us and shocked us in a good way :).

Related question;  through the past 1500 years of Christendom, how many understood Ultimate Reconciliation?  Flip side;  how many believed that the Bible, God, His Spirit, all supported Eternal Torment - because that's what their available translation of the scriptures taught!?   Flip to today;  what percentage of Christendom still believes in ET, in large part because that's still what their "sanctioned/beloved" particular translation teaches (and by extension, their pastor, their fellow church members, their personal "world" around them)?   Don't we believe people are negatively affected by error?

Would we say none of those people were or are led by the Spirit?  Or couldn't we conclude that maybe the Holy Spirit is leading us into truth, by giving us some new tools and information to use, as His Plan unfolds?  Not either/or (study or Spirit), but BOTH - as He leads.  Disclaimer;  I believe it's possible He may lead one to be a "scholar" and dig out these things and share them with us for our own growth and understanding, while He leads another to sit quietly before Him, gazing at His face - or some to do both, as He leads!  In that regard, maybe that's where not judging each others' motives, or not attempting to fit everyone else into our particular mold comes into play (God help me). 

"Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord's help, they will stand and receive his approval."  Romans 14:4

Blessings.

[lomarah]

AND A HEARTY AMEN TO THAT SIR JAB!!! 

[shawn]

Jabcat,

I think you were just nailing it with that post.  I think you answered all your own questions right there.  I doubt we disagree on any of it.  I do believe it's important to have translations that are as accurate as possible.  I do believe some are built for more scholarly activities within the faith, and I believe that can be very helpful...especially amongst the babes in Christ.  Many of those have not acquired the ability to discern spiritually but can discern naturally.  That is where I was when I was led to book by Martin Zender.  I believe God used the studies of Zender to lead me here.

So, if I have ever given the impression I don't believe study, translations or any of the like is important then I gave the wrong impression.  I will say though that I have become disenchanted with the thought that I can ever reason out God through proper study of His word without relationship being first.  For me, it's all about the priority and the focus.  My focus today is relationship, prayer, meditation, taking health to the sick, loving my neighbor, gratitude, practicing faith etc.  If I keep my eyes on discovering the truth about God's nature in these things FIRST, then my studies of the Bible are fruitful.  If I neglect the former for the later, and think I can find God through study...then like times past I will be greatly disappointed. 

So today, I think we should ask ourselves this question.  Where is my faith?  Is my faith in the translation?  In my proper dissection of the Bible?  Or is my faith in Christ to perfect me?  In that we find much liberty to grow and move within the faith, and not become distracted with earning our way to understanding.     

So, it's not that I disagree on translational accuracy being important.  I question the motive.  I question the heart behind the furvor.  Are we walking by faith or self reliance?  Do we truly believe Christ is the perfecter of our faith?  Or do we still hang onto the belief that we need to get it right, have our ducks in a row, and earn a bit of this understanding by being zealous in our studies?  In that we will see the difference between faith and pride.  That is the understanding the Lord has given me today.

[jabcat]

 

 

Still some things to ponder, but maybe it's a little clearer. 

If anyone has any further thoughts on the Spirit leading us into all truth?  I'm wondering if that may include an ongoing process, including various things (including Spirit-led study, for instance) - not just that we always "somehow know" (even though that often happens with His guidance)...

Kind'a like the idea though that God can and does miraculously heal and "out of the blue" bless us, but sometimes, He leads us to the right doctor or sends the right person across our path at just the right time, etc...