Author Topic: Should we trust what bible says?  (Read 4618 times)

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Offline happycheeks

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Should we trust what bible says?
« on: June 23, 2012, 10:19:06 PM »
To what I have heard, the bible has many contradictions and errors. Apparently, the bible is the copies of what have been translated. How can we know what is true?
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2012, 10:33:41 PM »
The first step should be figuring out what those contradictions are. And if they are really contradictions.
And of course the definition of Bible.
By my defenition none exists today. The originals are gone so we can never verify if the current copies are ok. Any error that slipped in, is not 'the Bible'.
On top of that even a perfect translation (which is totally impossible imo) misses lots of depth. Possibly so much it can't be really called God's word anymore.
Example: The Hebrew OT is a color photo. The best English translation is black and white photo. Many are black and white drawings.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/bible-contradictions-(between-translations)/msg33656/#msg33656
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline happycheeks

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2012, 10:48:15 PM »
The first step should be figuring out what those contradictions are. And if they are really contradictions.
And of course the definition of Bible.
By my defenition none exists today. The originals are gone so we can never verify if the current copies are ok. Any error that slipped in, is not 'the Bible'.
On top of that even a perfect translation (which is totally impossible imo) misses lots of depth. Possibly so much it can't be really called God's word anymore.
Example: The Hebrew OT is a color photo. The best English translation is black and white photo. Many are black and white drawings.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/bible-contradictions-(between-translations)/msg33656/#msg33656

Thanks for the link. I wish the copies weren't gone. Maybe we should just ask God for the answers. I'm sure He can answer our queries.  :smile:
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2012, 12:44:17 AM »
I don't believe we have any single one "perfect" translation.  However, 99%+ of the oldest manuscripts agree.  Within that, God has preserved His written Word for us.  I believe we need to read the most accurate translations available, search within them, and ask for revelation of what the truth is within those scriptures and within God's mind and will.  In the process of things, more accurate translations will come.  At the same time, I believe we should not take the road to error of so many today, who dismiss the scriptures for their own imaginations.

 http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 12:51:41 AM by jabcat »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2012, 01:19:22 AM »
Quote
However, 99%+ of the oldest manuscripts agree.
ot all translations are based on the best manuscripts which are discovered only 'recently'. Even 100% perpect copies aren't a guarantee for 100% perfect translations.
Quote
In the process of things, more accurate translations will come.
I think that could be true. But I doubt 'lost in translation' can be totally avoided. A perfect English translation will be at least teh double size of what we have now. Half of it would be footnotes. For example see teh idiom thread. Alls sort of word games with double meanings. Names of people really having a (prophetic) meaning. Even letters having a double menaing in context. Full understanding of the ancient mindset Etc etc.
Sure even the worst translation will teach 'you' lots of things. But to get everything right...
The Sadduccee and Pharisees didn't get it right either and they surely were very much part of their own culture. So likely my expectations are to high. :winkgrin: (but still the best goal to persue I think)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2012, 02:43:36 AM »
Hi happy. :)
The Bible has been used for centuries as the authority on spiritual truth. I know from experience that if you earnestly pray for the Lord to open up your eyes to the truth He will, regardless of translation or "error". And you are definitely on the right track with your line of thought - go to God, He can and will answer your queries! (He's the only One who we can know for sure we got the right answer from.  :bigGrin:)

Blessings to you!
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline happycheeks

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2012, 06:45:12 PM »
Hi happy. :)
The Bible has been used for centuries as the authority on spiritual truth. I know from experience that if you earnestly pray for the Lord to open up your eyes to the truth He will, regardless of translation or "error". And you are definitely on the right track with your line of thought - go to God, He can and will answer your queries! (He's the only One who we can know for sure we got the right answer from.  :bigGrin:)

Blessings to you!

Yes you're so right :) God bless you too :)
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Offline Molly

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2012, 07:42:32 PM »
The Holy Spirit gives us the Bible in a relational database.  We are given a series of pointers that point to all the related items under a given query.  The Bible doesn't just say one thing and move on to the next.  It keeps repeating the same thing in many ways, forms, and illustrations. 

Thus, if you read one passage of scripture, the Spirit will point you to all other associated passages as they are relevant to your own personal learning curve.

It is a 'living' book.

Because of this, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a 'bad' translation of the Bible.

Impossible.

Even if a Bible mistranslates on purpose, like JW Bible on John 1:1, the Spirit will point you to all other related items which will prove to you that passage has been incorrectly translated.  They would have to rewrite the entire Bible to get away with purposeful mistranslations, and nobody is going to do that because they cannot.

God has written a book that cannot be forged.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 07:51:33 PM by Molly »

Offline lomarah

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2012, 08:04:15 PM »
YES Molly, AMEN!
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Offline shawn

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2012, 08:51:16 PM »
I think Happycheeks has a great question.  So, can I only obtain truth if I have a doctorate in theology with a minor in Greek and Hebrew?  How do I know what is truth and what isn't?  So is it our study that brings knowledge and wisdom?  There many scholarly men who study the Bible that I suspect don't know God more than anyone else.  We have doctrines that have survived centuries based upon their studies.  I would believe that they thought they knew and understood truth.  They had their trusted translation, study and insights.  What makes us so arrogant to think our study is any better than theirs?

Let me tell you a story.  For years, I suffered from religious arrogance, still do to a point...fight it daily.  I would try to share my multiple views with my mother in law.  She quietly listened.  She would smile, nod.  I felt that my knowledge was superior and I had a greater understanding of Scripture.  I felt I could "educate" her.  Fast forward...and recently I began sharing about UR.  Again she smiled, nodded, and then she spoke.  She said yes this what I know to be true.  Wha?  She knows this to be true?  How?  She isn't well studied.  She still reads out of the NIV...gasp!  How did she know?  She has an intimate relationship with Christ, and she is able to discern truth from fiction.  Relationship with Christ is first...number one...and everything else follows that.  All else is ego.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2012, 10:05:21 PM »
I think you made a very good point Shawn. The HS can teach from any book. I've even read muslims converted to Christianity. So my guess the quran is a great book for Christians too.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2012, 10:11:19 PM »
Truth can be gleaned from anywhere, WITH the HS. Yes. And truth will be overlooked without it. (Hence the Pharisees, modern day church system, etc.) I don't know much about the quran but I think I would stick to the Bible unless otherwise led by the Lord. Just my two cents...
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2012, 10:33:07 PM »
Why did God order/inspire to write down the Bible?
Why does the Bible warn about adding, removing or otherwise changing?
I also have a strong feeling Jesus was very well studied in both the written and oral teachings of His (OT) time.
I can accept there is a step beyond the written Bible. Even hundreds of steps beyond.
But calling the Bible some sort religous accessory? Nah, I don't think that right.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2012, 11:08:26 PM »
Yes Wings, the Bible is definitely the book to go to... my point and I think Molly's point, is that without the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth we don't have a great chance of discerning much of what the Bible is actually telling us. (IE Spiritual truth.) Like when Jesus said to the Pharisees, you study the scriptures because you think that in them you have life, but you will not come to Me. The Spirit is what gives life. And the Spirit is the teacher of the truth. The truth sets us free.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 11:19:21 PM by lomarah »
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2012, 11:41:58 PM »
I think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra.
But that doesn't say anything about the Bible itself. Neither did Jesus in any way was trying to minimize the OT. In fact He was teaching directly from it. Ok He was inpired. True. But there was nothing in Jesus teachings that claimed the Bible wasn't of great importance. He even said He came to explain the OT. Meaning that according to Jesus the OT was the real deal. Yes, millions, at that time misunderstood things. True. But still that doesn't mean that for that reason the OT should be viewed as a book that leads to error.
In NT times billions have been in error. Several reasons for that. But on eof them is most certainly (imo) bad translations.
Many, all?, agree satan mixes a lots of truth with a tiny bit of venom that causes disaster. Jesus used bread and leaven to explain how error can infect things. Aren't the wrongly translated words the leaven/poison?
Why all that fuss about satan? No problem with that guy. Just listen to his teachings. The HS has the abillity to correct every mistake.

Everyone his/her own thoughts but imo it's not what the Bible/Jesus teaches. Neither did Jesus teach the HS is  replacement for the written word.
Nope. By that I'm not saying the HS is useless, should be ignored, etc etc.
I'm just saying the written word and the HS are on the same team. They aren't replacing one another.
The HS is a great teacher of what is written down in the Bible.
The Book itself is a great tool exposing lying spirits that claim to be the HS. Meaning the person that recieved something in a vision/dream/etc can should verify with the written Bible. And for that a good translation is a big bonus.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2012, 11:53:12 PM »
I pretty much agree. :)
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Offline shawn

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2012, 12:37:53 AM »
Why did God order/inspire to write down the Bible?
Why does the Bible warn about adding, removing or otherwise changing?
I also have a strong feeling Jesus was very well studied in both the written and oral teachings of His (OT) time.
I can accept there is a step beyond the written Bible. Even hundreds of steps beyond.
But calling the Bible some sort religous accessory? Nah, I don't think that right.

And why do we have 1 book and numerous denominations?  Why one book and so much difference in opinion?  So that this small group of people could carry around the secret?  Because we are special?  We are in danger of the same arrogance and dogmatic thinking that has plagued the church.  Yet we are different?

I have already made these points with you before.  You know my stance about the Bible.  You can't possibly understand it beyond the natural points without relationship to Christ.  While God can use anything including the secular to speak to us, the Bible is the Holy inspired word of God.  I just disagree on how we are to approach understanding.  If we spent the hours and hours we pour over Greek, concordances, dissecting word after phrase...as do seeking his face...the church would be changed for the better.  Seek his face first, then forget everything man has taught you about the Bible, then take a fresh look.  Through the eyes of human study it looks one way...through the eyes of knowing God through relationship it looks very different.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2012, 01:03:34 AM »

I'm just saying the written word and the HS are on the same team. They aren't replacing one another.
The HS is a great teacher of what is written down in the Bible.
The Book itself is a great tool exposing lying spirits that claim to be the HS. Meaning the person that recieved something in a vision/dream/etc can should verify with the written Bible. And for that a good translation is a big bonus.

I like that summary.  It's balanced and covers a lot of territory. The Holy Spirit revealing and quickening what's written and said...testing all things, studying to show oneself approved, properly handling the Word of truth..seeking the Lord/yielding to Him.  IMO, all those things are "holding fast to that which is good".   :2c:
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 01:11:43 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2012, 01:54:19 AM »
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

--Mat 4:4


where was this written?  Here:


Deuteronomy 8:3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2012, 03:23:28 AM »
I think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra.
But that doesn't say anything about the Bible itself. Neither did Jesus in any way was trying to minimize the OT. In fact He was teaching directly from it. Ok He was inpired. True. But there was nothing in Jesus teachings that claimed the Bible wasn't of great importance. He even said He came to explain the OT. Meaning that according to Jesus the OT was the real deal. Yes, millions, at that time misunderstood things. True. But still that doesn't mean that for that reason the OT should be viewed as a book that leads to error.
In NT times billions have been in error. Several reasons for that. But on eof them is most certainly (imo) bad translations.
Many, all?, agree satan mixes a lots of truth with a tiny bit of venom that causes disaster. Jesus used bread and leaven to explain how error can infect things. Aren't the wrongly translated words the leaven/poison?
Why all that fuss about satan? No problem with that guy. Just listen to his teachings. The HS has the abillity to correct every mistake.

Everyone his/her own thoughts but imo it's not what the Bible/Jesus teaches. Neither did Jesus teach the HS is  replacement for the written word.
Nope. By that I'm not saying the HS is useless, should be ignored, etc etc.
I'm just saying the written word and the HS are on the same team. They aren't replacing one another.
The HS is a great teacher of what is written down in the Bible.
The Book itself is a great tool exposing lying spirits that claim to be the HS. Meaning the person that recieved something in a vision/dream/etc can should verify with the written Bible. And for that a good translation is a big bonus.

Paul said the word of God is the "sword of the Spirit". IMO- The Holy Spirit has a lot to do with this topic. The ideal being that it is the Holy Spirit that will guide us into all truth(as Jesus said).....teach us through the pitfalls of man's corruption.....put salt on it(the word) and us(the body) so that we can sort it out through fellowship and midrash. Certainly, no other spirit is behind the efforts to restore the truth of the "writings/scrolls"(biblos). Since Peter says these words are given to no individual man's private interpretation because the were "breathed" by the spirit through men set apart for that purpose..... and since Jesus says the Spirit will "bring all things to remembrance", I think the Spirit is the only means by which the word can be made pure(core intent- becoming like God through fellowship in the Spirit of Christ). IMO If there is no restoration of truth or unity of the faith possible, then the word of God is full of plainly told lies(not mistranslations) about itself and is a waste of time beyond its historical, literary and philosophical value.
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Offline shawn

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2012, 05:07:10 AM »
Terrific post Eaglesway.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2012, 08:18:32 AM »
A messenger (or, angel) carries a message and spirit to quicken to life according the that message.  The word is the container for its spirit.  The word is the body for the spirit.  Spirit is embodied in word.

All word:  dry up.
All spirit:  blow up.
Word and Spirit:  grow up.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2012, 09:01:31 AM »
Why did God order/inspire to write down the Bible?
Why does the Bible warn about adding, removing or otherwise changing?
I also have a strong feeling Jesus was very well studied in both the written and oral teachings of His (OT) time.
I can accept there is a step beyond the written Bible. Even hundreds of steps beyond.
But calling the Bible some sort religous accessory? Nah, I don't think that right.

And why do we have 1 book and numerous denominations?
We don't have one book. They all differ a little. I've even seen some translations that come in 2 or 3 flavors. One of them being the JW edition.

Quote
  Why one book and so much difference in opinion?  So that this small group of people could carry around the secret?  Because we are special?
Compared to the world Christianity is a secret. Only 1 in 7 are Christians (on various levels). Jesus speaks about things being hidden (parables). So yes things are hidden I would say. Anyway what's the alternative? No Bibles at all. Just wait for the HS to give you a vision?

Quote
I have already made these points with you before.  You know my stance about the Bible.
Which has changed a lot in a short time.

Quote
You can't possibly understand it beyond the natural points without relationship to Christ.
Totally off-topic and I think you are fully aware of that Shawn.

Quote
While God can use anything including the secular to speak to us, the Bible is the Holy inspired word of God.
But gives a zillion different opnions. You try to make it sub-standard.

Quote
I just disagree on how we are to approach understanding.
I honestly think you have never understood anything I wrote on this subject.

Quote
If we spent the hours and hours we pour over Greek, concordances, dissecting word after phrase...as do seeking his face...the church would be changed for the better.
I think know the world would have been a much better place with proper translations. Far less denominations and at least twice as much Christians.

Quote
Seek his face first, then forget everything man has taught you about the Bible, then take a fresh look.
Why do people seek His face? Isn't it because the written Bible inspired them to do so?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2012, 09:21:45 AM »
I think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra.
But that doesn't say anything about the Bible itself. Neither did Jesus in any way was trying to minimize the OT. In fact He was teaching directly from it. Ok He was inpired. True. But there was nothing in Jesus teachings that claimed the Bible wasn't of great importance. He even said He came to explain the OT. Meaning that according to Jesus the OT was the real deal. Yes, millions, at that time misunderstood things. True. But still that doesn't mean that for that reason the OT should be viewed as a book that leads to error.
In NT times billions have been in error. Several reasons for that. But on eof them is most certainly (imo) bad translations.
Many, all?, agree satan mixes a lots of truth with a tiny bit of venom that causes disaster. Jesus used bread and leaven to explain how error can infect things. Aren't the wrongly translated words the leaven/poison?
Why all that fuss about satan? No problem with that guy. Just listen to his teachings. The HS has the abillity to correct every mistake.

Everyone his/her own thoughts but imo it's not what the Bible/Jesus teaches. Neither did Jesus teach the HS is  replacement for the written word.
Nope. By that I'm not saying the HS is useless, should be ignored, etc etc.
I'm just saying the written word and the HS are on the same team. They aren't replacing one another.
The HS is a great teacher of what is written down in the Bible.
The Book itself is a great tool exposing lying spirits that claim to be the HS. Meaning the person that recieved something in a vision/dream/etc can should verify with the written Bible. And for that a good translation is a big bonus.

Paul said the word of God is the "sword of the Spirit". IMO- The Holy Spirit has a lot to do with this topic.
I never said the HS has no big place in all of this. Why did Paul waste his time writing his part of the Bible? He could have his time for more fruitful things. Or did Paul see great value in the written word? Why did the HS inspire all those persons that together wrote the Bible?

Quote
The ideal being that it is the Holy Spirit that will guide us into all truth(as Jesus said)
Didn't Jesus also teach the Scriptures are of great value?


Quote
.....teach us through the pitfalls of man's corruption.....put salt on it(the word) and us(the body) so that we can sort it out through fellowship and midrash. Certainly, no other spirit is behind the efforts to restore the truth of the "writings/scrolls"(biblos).
That's just the point EW. Restoring the truth isn't done by corrupted translations.  Assuming translations are inspired (I'm not so sure about that) and there are so many lying spirits could have been part of the process.

Quote
Since Peter says these words are given to no individual man's private interpretation
Thanks for making my point EW. Translating things wrong (on purpose) is private interpretation.


Quote
because the were "breathed" by the spirit through men set apart for that purpose..... and since Jesus says the Spirit will "bring all things to remembrance", I think the Spirit is the only means by which the word can be made pure(core intent- becoming like God through fellowship in the Spirit of Christ).
Ok, but that still doesn't say/mean anything goes translation wise.
Quote
IMO If there is no restoration of truth or unity of the faith possible, then the word of God is full of plainly told lies(not mistranslations) about itself and is a waste of time beyond its historical, literary and philosophical value.
I think the truth is restoring itself. Church is loosing it's grip, scholarship improves, and new (actually ancient) ways of looking at Scripture are gaining momentum.

EW remember that a few months back I wrote AND NOT OR?
That's what I'm trying to explain.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Should we trust what bible says?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2012, 09:32:47 AM »
Quote from: ww
I think know the world would have been a much better place with proper translations. Far less denominations and at least twice as much Christians.

Isn't it possible that this is the way God wants it?

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." John 12:40

He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.  Mat 13:11