Author Topic: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)  (Read 2607 times)

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noname

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Introduction

In various threads I made statements that Paul's gospel is in contrast to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his 12 Apostles.
I also stated that Paul could not be an apostle as per the requirements for an apostle as given by Jesus himself.
Further, I said that Paul's teachings were rejected by the early church (pre 300AD), for around 300AD the Roman Catholic church was established from which most western churches descended, including Protestantism. Only when the Roman Catholic Church was established, Paul's letters were included in the Bible as "Scripture".
I also stated that Paul's teachings are not accepted as Scripture by the Eastern Orthodox churches. These churches are direct descendants of the apostolic churches in Jerusalem (i.e. the "Mother church") and Asia Minor (7 churches of Revelation) which were established by the 12 apostles long before the Roman Catholic Church.

I assume that we all are searching for the Truth, and nothing but the Truth, and based on this I present the most common contradictions between Paul's gospel and that of Jesus Christ and his 12 Apostles.

This is my attempt to provide proof from the Bible of the abovementioned statements:


Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)

Many Christians today believe we are not under the Law of Commandments anymore but we operate in a period of Grace. Paul even said that this also apply to Jewish Christians.


Point 1: Paul says the "new covenant" abolished the Law of Commandments:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. (Eph 2:14-16)

Also

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

Romans 3:28 ("man is justified by faith apart from observing the law").

Romans 4:5 ("To the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness").

Gal. 5:4 ("You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace").

Romans 7:6 ("Now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in a new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code").

Ephesians 2:8-9 ("For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.")


Point 2: What do the Prophets say about the Law and its relation to the new covenant?

Jeremiah on the New Covenant and relation to the Law:

 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
       "when I will make a new covenant
       with the house of Israel
       and with the house of Judah.
 32 It will not be like the covenant
       I made with their forefathers
       when I took them by the hand
       to lead them out of Egypt,
       because they broke my covenant,
       though I was a husband to [a] them, "
       declares the LORD.
 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
       after that time," declares the LORD.
       "I will put my law in their minds
       and write it on their hearts.

       I will be their God,
       and they will be my people. Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NIV)

This promise of a New Covenant toward the seed of Israel further in Jeremiah 31:35-37 is itself based upon the promise of God that "these ordinances" of the Law shall be "everlasting for all generations."

 21In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel. Exodus 27:21 (King James Version)

 3Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the LORD continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations. Leviticus 24:3 (King James Version)

Also see Ex 7:21; 30:21; Lev. 6:18; 7:36; 10:9; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 41; Num. 10:8; 15:15.)

Thus, for at least as long as humans have offspring, i.e., generations, the Law remains valid. We know this period will be at least until heaven and earth pass away. This is because on the Last Day when all are resurrected (Rev. 20:13-15) appears "a new heaven and a new earth." (Rev.21:1.)

Isaiah on the New Covenant and relation to the Law:

 1Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

In verse 1 Isaiah talks about God's servant, His elect (Messiah) and in verse 21 he says what the sevant (Messiah) will do with the Law:

 21The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. (Isaiah 42:1 and 21)


Point 3: What does JESUS himself say regarding the Law and the new covenant he is bringing?

Jesus told the rich young man that if you would "enter life," obey the Ten Commandments:
 
The Rich Young Man
 16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
 18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
   Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[a] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
 20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
 21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
 22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
 23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
 26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew19:16-26; Mark 10:17-31; Luke 18:18-26.)

Also:

25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
 28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. (Luke10:25-28)

If you violate the commandments, Jesus required severe repentance from such sin to avoid being sent to hell:
 
8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. (Matthew 18:8, Matthew 5:29, and Mark 9:42-48.)


Point 4: JESUS says that he has come to fulfill the Law, not to abolish, replace or diminish it:

The Fulfillment of the Law
 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:17 (NIV)

Further, JESUS says:

49But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. (John 7:49)


Point 5: Paul says that the "letter of the Law kills"

Paul insisted that the Law given Moses was a "ministration of death engraven on stones" because the "letter of the law kills," which now has "been done away" and "is abolished;" henceforth, instead, in the Lord we have "liberty."

2 Corinthians 3:6-17 (New International Version)
6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The Glory of the New Covenant
 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
 12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


Point 6: What does JESUS say about the "letter of the Law"?

18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.  Matthew 5:18 (NIV)


...more to follow...
Paul says the law was not given by God, but by angels, therefore we need not obey the Law.
(Galatians 3:17; 3:19-29, Gal. 4:8-9)

Jesus warns of false prophets coming in his name, one who says he is a Christian, has sign and wonders, and
preaches Christ, but he will be a "negator of the Law of Moses." (workers of "anomia")

« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 03:43:37 PM by noname »

Jerm

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2010, 04:40:04 PM »
Introduction

In various threads I made statements that Paul's gospel is in contrast to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his 12 Apostles.
I also stated that Paul could not be an apostle as per the requirements for an apostle as given by Jesus himself.
Further, I said that Paul's teachings were rejected by the early church (pre 300AD), for around 300AD the Roman Catholic church was established from which most western churches descended, including Protestantism. Only when the Roman Catholic Church was established, Paul's letters were included in the Bible as "Scripture".
I also stated that Paul's teachings are not accepted as Scripture by the Eastern Orthodox churches. These churches are direct descendants of the apostolic churches in Jerusalem (i.e. the "Mother church") and Asia Minor (7 churches of Revelation) which were established by the 12 apostles long before the Roman Catholic Church.

I assume that we all are searching for the Truth, and nothing but the Truth, and based on this I present the most common contradictions between Paul's gospel and that of Jesus Christ and his 12 Apostles.

Where did you find the above information noname because frankly it's bad history.  The Church accepted and used Paul's writings from the get go, not just after the "birth" of the Roman Catholic Church.  And I'm not sure what you mean when you say the Eastern Orthodox Church doesn't accept Paul's Letters.  If you mean historically speaking, again that's wrong because the Church universally accepted Paul's writings from the get go.  If you mean today, it's still wrong.  I have attended Eastern Orthodox services and Paul's writings are used and preached from.  In fact, almost every single Lectionary reading, both for Sundays and for the rest of the week, include passages from Paul's letters.

Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2010, 04:53:12 PM »
Quote
Point 1: Paul says the "new covenant" abolished the Law of Commandments:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. (Eph 2:14-16)

  Hi Noname ,
 glad you brought this  thread up  ,
 
  Just wanted to add that the Law of Moses  was of  the carnal  commands  not making the Spiritual Law perfect
  Jesus come to do that for us in His own flesh 
 that to me is the point Paul was making
 
  Faith without works is DEAD
  But the works of Faith in Jesus is  very much ALIVE in Christ Body / true Chruch
 
  this is the works of faith creating a clean conscience in those whom   could not get past the "guilt "    to  even approach God
  we have now an advocate  to the Father
  Paul states this clearly as do the other  apostles that Jesus Christ is the gift of Gods grace  and that the Cross is the mighty works of God  though  Jesus Christ  on our behalf ...
 
  4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. 6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:

 7 "Oh, what joy for those
      whose disobedience is forgiven,
      whose sins are put out of sight.
 8 Yes, what joy for those
      whose record the Lord has cleared of sin."

 
  see ,I do not understand this "type of reasoning"    in your presentation .
 

noname

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2010, 04:58:05 PM »
Introduction

In various threads I made statements that Paul's gospel is in contrast to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his 12 Apostles.
I also stated that Paul could not be an apostle as per the requirements for an apostle as given by Jesus himself.
Further, I said that Paul's teachings were rejected by the early church (pre 300AD), for around 300AD the Roman Catholic church was established from which most western churches descended, including Protestantism. Only when the Roman Catholic Church was established, Paul's letters were included in the Bible as "Scripture".
I also stated that Paul's teachings are not accepted as Scripture by the Eastern Orthodox churches. These churches are direct descendants of the apostolic churches in Jerusalem (i.e. the "Mother church") and Asia Minor (7 churches of Revelation) which were established by the 12 apostles long before the Roman Catholic Church.

I assume that we all are searching for the Truth, and nothing but the Truth, and based on this I present the most common contradictions between Paul's gospel and that of Jesus Christ and his 12 Apostles.

Where did you find the above information noname because frankly it's bad history.  The Church accepted and used Paul's writings from the get go, not just after the "birth" of the Roman Catholic Church.  And I'm not sure what you mean when you say the Eastern Orthodox Church doesn't accept Paul's Letters.  If you mean historically speaking, again that's wrong because the Church universally accepted Paul's writings from the get go.  If you mean today, it's still wrong.  I have attended Eastern Orthodox services and Paul's writings are used and preached from.  In fact, almost every single Lectionary reading, both for Sundays and for the rest of the week, include passages from Paul's letters.
history is relative...it depends on the writer...we can argue about it all day, I'll give you some references...and then you'd say BUT yes I have these references...I can tell you the Orthodox churches only regard Paul's writings as "edifying", the one's I've visited anyway, and you'll say the oppposite...I can give you references to Bonhoeffer, Bercot...early church fathers like Clemet, Cyprian...Tertullian...again, you'll give me other references.
Fact is the early Ephesians rejected Paul and Jewish Christians appealed to the Jerusalem church for a verdict against him as he was speaking against the Law

why don't you comment on the contradictions of Paul vs Jesus as I've shown above?
let's make this a Biblical discussion shall we...not a "carnal" one...for as I hear, our "carnal nature is evil" and so I'd like to discuss Biblical matters...can we agree on that?

any comment on the obvious contradictions?

Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2010, 04:59:27 PM »
 
  the Carnal command  made one know their sin  
 but  do we stop there ?
   no, we go on into the Spiritual command "love one another as I have loved you " this is Jesus Command  and it was set  even  from the begining ,  yet men used this command  carnally and lorded over the  less fortunate  where we see Pride was the error  and covetness
  become the big problem as well as IDOLTARY ..
 
 They served/ worshipped  one another and not God for greedy gain
  

  Jesus come to save the lost  and Judge to judges ,  the hearts of men ..
 
  Paul never strays from that same concept  

 
  
 
 

noname

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2010, 05:01:09 PM »
Quote
Point 1: Paul says the "new covenant" abolished the Law of Commandments:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. (Eph 2:14-16)

  Hi Noname ,
 glad you brought this  thread up  ,
 
  Just wanted to add that the Law of Moses  was of  the carnal  commands  not making the Spiritual Law perfect
  Jesus come to do that for us in His own flesh 
 that to me is the point Paul was making
 
  Faith without works is DEAD
  But the works of Faith in Jesus is  very much ALIVE in Christ Body / true Chruch
 
  this is the works of faith creating a clean conscience in those whom   could not get past the "guilt "    to  even approach God
  we have now an advocate  to the Father
  Paul states this clearly as do the other  apostles that Jesus Christ is the gift of Gods grace  and that the Cross is the mighty works of God  though  Jesus Christ  on our behalf ...
 
  4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. 6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:

 7 "Oh, what joy for those
      whose disobedience is forgiven,
      whose sins are put out of sight.
 8 Yes, what joy for those
      whose record the Lord has cleared of sin."

 
  see ,I do not understand this "type of reasoning"    in your presentation .
 
rosered,
this is what you believe, sure...this is not what Jesus said
as I said to Jerm...do not look past all the contradictions because you love Paul so much, look at what is written...compare...is that the same gospel?

Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2010, 05:07:59 PM »
Quote
why don't you comment on the contradictions of Paul vs Jesus as I've shown above?
let's make this a Biblical discussion shall we...not a "carnal" one...for as I hear, our "carnal nature is evil" and so I'd like to discuss Biblical matters...can we agree on that?

any comment on the obvious contradictions?

  Sure thing Noname ,
  I would love to discuss  these things openly
  for all to conscider  these  statements and so called counterdictions of Paul  when  speaking of Jesus words only ..
 
 I love the Lord  and because Paul is part of the Body of Christ 
 I find it  rude on your part to even speak such a way  to any of us  trying to understand your point of view
 
 be civil and we can learn and grow in truth and  grace
 
  what say you ? :icon_flower:
 
   

noname

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2010, 05:13:12 PM »
Quote
why don't you comment on the contradictions of Paul vs Jesus as I've shown above?
let's make this a Biblical discussion shall we...not a "carnal" one...for as I hear, our "carnal nature is evil" and so I'd like to discuss Biblical matters...can we agree on that?

any comment on the obvious contradictions?

  Sure thing Noname ,
  I would love to discuss  these things openly
  for all to conscider  these  statements and so called counterdictions of Paul  when  speaking of Jesus words only ..
 
 I love the Lord  and because Paul is part of the Body of Christ 
 I find it  rude on your part to even speak such a way  to any of us  trying to understand your point of view
 
 be civil and we can learn and grow in truth and  grace
 
  what say you ? :icon_flower:
 
   
rosered,
I'm not being rude...maybe a bit too blunt...
please consider the verses I quoted by Paul about the Law, and those I quoted by Jesus about the Law...print it out...cut it up, put it next to each other...you will see that they do not say the same thing...

Paul says the Law is abolished...gone, old news
Jesus said NO WAYS! the Law will NEVER dissapear until the last generation...just as God said to Moses all that time ago...just as the prophets said all that time ago
do you find these verses the same, different...or totally opposite?

Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2010, 05:14:24 PM »
Quote
Jeremiah on the New Covenant and relation to the Law:

 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
       "when I will make a new covenant
       with the house of Israel
       and with the house of Judah.
 32 It will not be like the covenant
       I made with their forefathers
       when I took them by the hand
       to lead them out of Egypt,
       because they broke my covenant,
       though I was a husband to [a] them, "
       declares the LORD.
 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
       after that time," declares the LORD.
       "I will put my law in their minds
       and write it on their hearts.
       I will be their God,
       and they will be my people. Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NIV)

This promise of a New Covenant toward the seed of Israel further in Jeremiah 31:35-37 is itself based upon the promise of God that "these ordinances" of the Law shall be "everlasting for all generations."

 21In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel. Exodus 27:21 (King James Version)

 3Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the LORD continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations. Leviticus 24:3 (King James Version)

 
   heh heh
   this law is still in effect for some Noname  is it not ??

 from this stand point   , we can see that this first covenant is   forever  
as long as   people exists and seek Gods will...
 
but
  some have  gone on into  a place where Gods will is being done  perfectly
  by Gods Spirit and Truth
  this is   Gods doings
  not men and what they "think" is Gods will or righteous in Gods sight
  do you understand what I am saying here ?
 
 peace  :icon_flower:

noname

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2010, 05:17:27 PM »
but
  some have  gone on into  a place where Gods will is being done  perfectly
  by Gods Spirit and Truth
  this is   Gods doings
  not men and what they "think" is Gods will or righteous in Gods sight
  do you understand what I am saying here ?
 
 peace  :icon_flower:
sorry...I do not understand

Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2010, 05:23:18 PM »
Quote
rosered,
I'm not being rude...maybe a bit too blunt...
please consider the verses I quoted by Paul about the Law, and those I quoted by Jesus about the Law...print it out...cut it up, put it next to each other...you will see that they do not say the same thing...

Paul says the Law is abolished...gone, old news
Jesus said NO WAYS! the Law will NEVER dissapear until the last generation...just as God said to Moses all that time ago...just as the prophets said all that time ago
do you find these verses the same, different...or totally opposite?

  I am so glad you said this in a way I understand you noname
  , I will be blunt too  , ok
 and am not offended at all. :thumbsup:

   and I totally agree with the last generation  being fulfilled
   the  LAST generation
 
  This would be the  genertaion of vipers  that under the Law of Moses  would die without mercy under two or three withnesses  , by their own words they have judged themselves , that is how Righteous Jesus is
 and Paul warns them  of the same things  devouring one another  same as in the wilderness  when Moses set the  brazen Serpent  on the pole to look up to and Live , Jesus reperents the same thing  these days  ,
 
   the new creatures in Christ is the Promise of the new Covenant  

  we become in the   royal Law   , love one another as I have loved you and  gave myself for you ..  

  I will be more specific   with your counterdictions  noname
  as  time permits
  blessings
 
 
 
 

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2010, 05:25:50 PM »
Quote
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. (Eph 2:14-16)


No contradiction,  the law applies to us spiritually now concerning our heart.



Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2010, 05:30:56 PM »
but
  some have  gone on into  a place where Gods will is being done  perfectly
  by Gods Spirit and Truth
  this is   Gods doings
  not men and what they "think" is Gods will or righteous in Gods sight
  do you understand what I am saying here ?
 
 peace  :icon_flower:
sorry...I do not understand
 well noname you have "bound me "  by not allowing any of Pauls writings to mean anything to you
  SO   I will use Jesus Word to make those points and show whwere Paul is not only in complete agreement with Jesus  but also reveals those mysteries   that have been hidden from the ages  till now
  and we can bank on them  
 promises of God
   Paul did believe in Jesus and that Jesus and the Father we with him
 
   Jesus said  this Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
 
  this is what Paul   does  
 Do you see Paul in or out of the Body of Christ ?
 
 
  And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.  


 Jhn 14:14   If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].  


 Jhn 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.  


 Jhn 14:16   And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;  


 Jhn 14:17   [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.  

 Jhn 14:18   I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.  

 hope this was more clear  noname

noname

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2010, 05:31:36 PM »
Quote
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. (Eph 2:14-16)


No contradiction,  the law applies to us spiritually now concerning our heart.



Paul...again..this is a statement by paul...Jesus NEVER says these kinda things...He also never said that the law was "crucified in his flesh"...neither does any other apostle speak about these things

Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2010, 05:53:47 PM »
Quote
Point 4: JESUS says that he has come to fulfill the Law, not to abolish, replace or diminish it:

The Fulfillment of the Law
 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:17 (NIV)

Further, JESUS says:

49But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. (John 7:49)


Point 5: Paul says that the "letter of the Law kills"
 it was proven By Jesus  himself that the letter of the Law KILLS
 
 What do you think the Cross represents  but  ignorance  of men
  killing in Gods name  His  SON !
 
 for blasphemy   NO LESS  Keeping thew letter of the Law that kills
 
  Jesus made an open show it
  forgive them Father for they know not what they do ...

noname

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2010, 05:57:57 PM »
Jhn 14:17   [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.  

 Jhn 14:18   I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.  

 hope this was more clear  noname
beautiful passage that!

you forgot to leave this out:

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

 25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 16:12-14 (New International Version)

 12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

from the above passages it is clear that the Holy Spirit will not act on His own, but speak the words Jesus did as Jesus spoke the words of the Father...all will bring the same message Jesus did

Paul almost NEVER quoted Jesus ie the Father ie the Holy Spirit...again, that's why I say his message is not of Jesus





Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2010, 05:58:20 PM »
  Jesus also gae them the parable of the letter of the Law that kills  the Christ
 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence [him] when they see him.  


 Luk 20:14   But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.  


 Luk 20:15   So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed [him]. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?  


 Luk 20:16   He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard [it], they said, God forbid.  

 Luk 20:17   And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?  


 Luk 20:18   Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.  


 Luk 20:19   And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
 
 
  Paul just confirmes even more how Jesus words are TRUE !

noname

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2010, 06:03:59 PM »
 it was proven By Jesus  himself that the letter of the Law KILLS
 
????
Jesus speaking....
18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.  Matthew 5:18 (NIV)

Please rosered, you're making a lot of statements and personal beliefs...when you have a point to prove and say Jesus said this and prove that...please back it up with His words...feel free to quote the Revelation of Jesus Christ to John his apostle...that book was written after the ressurection when things were still NOT "accomplished". Jesus clearly tells us in that book how all things would come to an end...

noname

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2010, 06:08:33 PM »
 Jesus also gae them the parable of the letter of the Law that kills  the Christ
 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence [him] when they see him.  


 Luk 20:14   But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.  


 Luk 20:15   So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed [him]. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?  


 Luk 20:16   He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard [it], they said, God forbid.  

 Luk 20:17   And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?  


 Luk 20:18   Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.  


 Luk 20:19   And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
 
 
  Paul just confirmes even more how Jesus words are TRUE !
?
I'm sorry...I fail to pick up any reference to your stated "the letter of the Law that kills  the Christ"...could you please indicate where that is written?

do you remember what Jesus said about the Pharisees who crucified Him?
he said that they do NOT apply the Law but only give an outward appearance of it...and bind the people with unecessary "traditions of men"

Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2010, 06:14:24 PM »
 it was proven By Jesus  himself that the letter of the Law KILLS
 
????
Jesus speaking....
18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.  Matthew 5:18 (NIV)

Please rosered, you're making a lot of statements and personal beliefs...when you have a point to prove and say Jesus said this and prove that...please back it up with His words...feel free to quote the Revelation of Jesus Christ to John his apostle...that book was written after the ressurection when things were still NOT "accomplished". Jesus clearly tells us in that book how all things would come to an end...
 LOL  
 
  OK  no name ,
  Jesus  did fulfill and is fulfilling the LAW IN HIS BODY  NOW as  in the open show of  the Law  of moses
 
  and as far as Paul is concerned He always pointed the Jesus Christ and  Him  crucified  , unless  the  cross is of no effect to some
  and  spit in the  face of grace  still trying to save themselves by the self rightous  acts of dead works .
 
 
 the law of Moses  " the letter of the Law killed  by  witnesses  who were truthful or men were liars ?
 
  that is what Killed Jesus liars
 Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Mat 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, [yet] found they none. And said, This [fellow] said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
 
 
   mens hearts are evil  the carnal mind is an emnity agains the Spirit of the Living God
 
  its facts written thought  scriptures  noname  :icon_flower:
 

Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2010, 06:17:57 PM »
 Jesus also gae them the parable of the letter of the Law that kills  the Christ
 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence [him] when they see him.  


 Luk 20:14   But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.  


 Luk 20:15   So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed [him]. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?  


 Luk 20:16   He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard [it], they said, God forbid.  

 Luk 20:17   And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?  


 Luk 20:18   Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.  


 Luk 20:19   And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
 
 
  Paul just confirmes even more how Jesus words are TRUE !
?
I'm sorry...I fail to pick up any reference to your stated "the letter of the Law that kills  the Christ"...could you please indicate where that is written?

do you remember what Jesus said about the Pharisees who crucified Him?
he said that they do NOT apply the Law but only give an outward appearance of it...and bind the people with unecessary "traditions of men"
  exactly
  making themselves to be as God and they decided who was  saved and who  was put to death , the outward appearace was  judging the flesh in which never pleases God
 
   it is by faith  , Jesus preached big time on Faith believing as did Paul  also  pointing to Jesus Christ  and the grace of God that saved him from the law of sin and death   !

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2010, 06:37:57 PM »
Quote
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. (Eph 2:14-16)


No contradiction,  the law applies to us spiritually now concerning our heart.



Paul...again..this is a statement by paul...Jesus NEVER says these kinda things...He also never said that the law was "crucified in his flesh"...neither does any other apostle speak about these things


Yes, Jesus speaks of these things, that is why he spoke of murdering without actually physically killing someone.


Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2010, 06:41:10 PM »
 
  So you do not think that the   Jesus Christ  in the Spirit and those found in  Christ are fulfilling the law  to the End ?  noname
  how do you see the Law being fulfilled than  , by our works and not of the  truth  and  Spirit ?
 
 
  Jesus  Words
 
 Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
 
  Paul
 
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:  

  Peter
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
 
  and John  

 1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

 
  the Spirit of Truth was bearing witness in all   4 .
 
  Jesus ,Peter, Paul and John

Offline rosered

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2010, 06:59:33 PM »

 Hi noname ,
   please read  if you would ..
  something that helped me alot when  trying to undersatnd Pauls lie , he did not lie at all just using mens carnal reasoning to state all men are liars and God is true when He judges us  righteously
  this helped so much in   understanding Pauls style of writing
  he spoke  with tongues of men and angels so it would be easy for a man with the carnal mind still to misconstrue  his meanings
 
  but the Spirit  knows all things and can discern all things between  men and angels / messengers and in Whom God sends in His name
 http://www.bga.com/~wdoud/romans/rom12.html
 
 none  can save themselves  , though  they may  die trying  , this being  the reason all shall fail without Jesus Christ   Father and Son   doing the  mighty works of the Holy Spirit   dwelling within them ..  :2c:
 

Offline Pierac

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Re: Paul vs Jesus - Part 1 - The Mosaic Law (Law of Commandments)
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2010, 07:33:22 PM »

It is important in a theological sense to know just what Paul considered to be the Law of God about which he wrote. To show this, in Galatians 4:21–31 Paul gave the illustration of Sarah and Hagar, the wife and concubine of Abraham mentioned in the Book of Genesis. It is interesting that Paul even called his illustration a teaching of the Law. In Jewish and biblical terminology the first book of the Bible is called the initial book of the Law. So, when Paul thought of the Law of God, he included laws given to Adam, other laws given to Noah, those given to Abraham and also all those given to Moses and Israel at the time of the Exodus. All these laws were commands that were good and right, but Paul found them impossible to keep in a perfect sense.

There were many negatives to human welfare associated with the earlier Law of God. This is what Paul indicated when he said:

"And the commandment, which was ordained unto life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] slew me."  Romans 7:10–11

Indeed, everyone who lived under the Law of God (before the death of Christ on the tree of crucifixion), was utterly condemned by that very Law ordained to give life to those who would keep it perfectly. The word "perfectly" easily condemned all humans.

This was the profound negative attached to the Law. And, alas, no one was ever able to keep God's commandments from the time of Adam to that of Christ. Paul stated a cardinal truth when he taught that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). And there were no degrees in lawbreaking in the eyes of God. It was not that some laws were more important to God than others, or that some were reckoned by Him to be severe and others as mild in interpretation. In no way was that true. In God's view, even a minor transgression  of the Law meant that all the Law (in its entirety) had been broken (James 2:10).

Paul taught that the whole world "died" to the former Law of God in order to accept another law that is better, the Law of Christ. Paul just said:"But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the Law [the former Law of bondage]" (Galatians 5:18). When Christ died, they also became "dead in Christ" to that old Law. This does not mean that Christians are abandoning law. No, they are not giving up law. They have simply paid their debt to the old law and are now under a new Law of Christ in which they perform the fruit of the Spirit. The Law of Christ is represented by those nine fruits (virtues or principles) of the Spirit which are so interlaced with one another in importance that they coalesce into being a single "fruit." Paul said:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no Law."   Galatians 5:22–23

Nor does any law or commandment define each of them. To discover what each of them means, you have to become "one" with the Father and with Christ Jesus who made them for us to walk in.

These nine principles of the Spirit are not "against" (or they do not "contradict") any law no matter what it is. These nine principles are the very embodiment of all laws that come from the hand of God. Indeed, no proper laws can exist without the adoption of these nine spiritual virtues or principles. And notice this important point, each of those principles is NOT defined with written legislation like the written Ten Commandments or the other written codes of Moses. Not one of those principles is thoroughly defined in dictionary format or in a written legal code-form within the Holy Scriptures (though scores of examples illustrating them are given). These are the UNWRITTEN virtues or principles that represent the Law of Christ. That Law is "written" on the heart, not on tables of stone, or even written as laws that thoroughly explain each principle written in a book (even in the Scriptures).

The nine fruits of the Spirit in action in a person's life supersede the necessity of having written laws (any written laws), no matter what they are or were. No law ever made (even the holiest) is against these nine principles of life that should be manifested within each Christian. As I have said, these nine fruits now represent "the Law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). All should keep that Law of Christ. Paul said that even living in the fashion of the Gentiles, who walked without the Law of God mentioned in the Scriptures, those Gentiles could still be said to be "under [or, within] the Law to Christ" (1 Corinthians 9:21) when they observe the nine fruits of the Spirit. Paul fully believed that he and the Gentiles were living "within the Law to Christ" even when Paul himself was walking after the manner of the Gentiles and not acting like a Jew under the Old Covenant.

"To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law. To them that are without law [that is, to those outside the pale of Judaism, and those who are non-Israelites], as [living] without law, [but] being not without law to God, but [living within or] under the law to Christ."   1 Corinthians 9:20–21


Paul