So, here are those three remaining quotes where proginōskō
appears and the ulterior King's interpreters used those especial words 'foreknow' and 'foreknew'-as well as the very
inaccurate and very
ulterior word 'foreordained'; very
I will be using the CLV text here, even as you did and will also provide it with my annotations as well as with the complete thought, that is, with the context.
Rom 8:25-30 "Now, if we (Believers) are expecting what we are not observing, we (Believers) are awaiting it with endurance. Now, similarly, the spirit, also is aiding our infirmity; for what we (Believers) should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we (Believers) are not aware, but, the spirit itself is pleading for us (Believers) with inarticulate groanings. Now He Who is searching the hearts (of Believers) is aware what is the disposition of the spirit, for in accord with God is it pleading for the saints.
Now we (Believers) are aware that God is working all together for the good of those (humans) who are loving God, (those humans) who are called according to the purpose that, (those humans) whom He foreknew, (through knowing intimately their hearts) He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him (Jesus) to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now those (humans) whom He designates beforehand (because He knows their hearts), these (humans) He calls also, and whom He calls, these (humans) He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these (humans) He glorifies also."
You said simply:
Here we have God's foreknowledge of the "saints".
And I somewhat agree. However it does not say he has foreknowledge of the future, as a fact.
Let me pull the misleading word 'foreknew' and insert another phrase:
"Now we (Believers) are aware that God is working all together for the good of those (humans) who are loving God, (those humans) who are called according to the purpose that, (those humans) whom He knows before, (through knowing intimately their hearts) He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him (Jesus) to be Firstborn among many brethren."
, to my mind, lines up much better
with the thought that the living God is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe!
So, what is the difference, then, between knew
? Answer: Not much, except
for the context.
For instance the phrase: "I know what's going on" implies current knowledge or knowledge gained in the present and "I knew what was going on" implies knowledge gained from the past.
Therefore, since Paul is keeping his talk in the present tense I feel it is justified to use 'know' rather than 'knew'. And because Knoch was inconsistent in his own translational goal here and also because of what I've read of his heart in his commentaries, I've concluded that he was pre-disposed to use 'foreknew', which means 'knew before' rather than the more accurate 'foreknow', which means 'know before'.
Like I said, I'm not a language scholar and I would welcome any constructive
input on this. Because I foreknow that what I am doing here would seem to be taking liberties to prove my point. And that it would seem, to those who don't like
what I am saying, that I am 'claiming' to know more than those who are learned in languages.
My only defense, for now, to such a charge, would be to quote you Doc:
...we have study tools available that can show us the way that biblical words are translated isn't what they really mean at all.
And that is all I am doing; using these tools while studiously examining my own thoughts for ulterior motives and prove my logic and reason against false, contradictory conclusions.
So, more to the point, what I perceive Jehovah actually foreknows, or, has intimate knowledge of, here, is not the "saints", as a singular, corporate body, but, specifically, the saint's individual hearts
; as well as, individually, all
the other humans and their hearts; which, as I've defined it biblically for you, the human heart is the sum-total of the thoughts in us that lead us to speak what we speak and act as we act.
But, it does not say here that Jehovah has foreknowledge of the future.
However, consider this: If Jehovah does, indeed, 'foreknow' the human heart- and there are a ton of scriptures to support that idea, including Jesus' uncanny ability to read human minds- for being intimately acquainted with each and every one of us, even as the word proginōskō
is an intimate word, cannot He then predict or prognosticate
what the human whose heart He knows so well, will do
, given a set of circumstances? And
with an almost unbelievable accuracy so that it seems
He knew what they were going to do, as a fact, even before they did?
And according to Paul, for those humans who have received holy spirit, that spirit pleads for us to give us strength in our weakness as it prays for us 'in accord with what must be'; which 'what must be' is not the future, per se
, that is, the future as a foreknown fact
, but is, instead, what Jehovah determines
should come to be for exactly what He does know.
And so, I ask, how does this thought, differing from the one Calvin gave you to believe about what Jehovah 'foreknows', diminish His sovereignty over the Universe He created? Did not He Himself say: "All souls are Mine"?
Answer: It doesn't diminish His sovereignty. In fact this thought gives my heart a much clearer vision, much more in line with the God I've come to know; a God Who is truly loving, Who really is agape and is intimately acquainted with every human soul, even mine such that the very (few) hairs (left) on my head are numbered. And that He is ever-acting among all
humans, especially through Believers, who have had holy spirit deposited into them, begetting them anew, to bring about exactly what Paul said we Believers know by experience, "…that He is working all together for the good of those (humans) who are loving God, (those humans) who are called according to the purpose that, (those humans) whom He knows before, (through knowing intimately their hearts)He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him (Jesus) to be Firstborn among many brethren."
So, if you didn't know this before, being a Believer, then now you know exactly
what Jehovah has foreknowledge of and what He is using this foreknowledge to accomplish, the salvation of all, on the fly!
, so to speak, even as the future unfolds with each new thought we think and with each new human that is created by us when we come to ginosko
each other as intimately as He is intimate.
All souls are His and He is particularly fond of all of them- even those souls that would not turn from wickedness and will eventually have to be destroyed, first, because of sin, before their spirits can be redeemed and restored to what he/she were intended to be from the beginning, that is, good.
He even, out of His Love, gave to us a way of knowing, intimately, this Love that He is
, fondness and affection, agape
, by giving us the ability to become Fathers and Mothers through our awe-inspiring sexuality, that is, when we make love, so that we would know
how it feels to be God, The Father, as we love the children created by us, in a moment, while we engaged each other's soul in pure and passionate intimacy.
And now the next verse, similarly annotated:
Rom 10:16-11:4 But not all (humans) obey the evangel, for Isaiah is saying, "Lord, who believes our tidings?" [Consequently, faith is out of (hearing the) tidings (of the evangel), yet the tidings (come) through a declaration of Christ.] But, I am saying, Do they (all humans) not hear (in order to perceive)at all? To be sure! (Yes, they do get to hear, toward understanding the evangel, because it is as Psalm 19
says:) "Into the entire earth came out their (creation's testimonial) utterance, (Rom 1:20-21)
and into the ends of the inhabited earth (go) their declarations." But, I am saying, Did not Israel know (what was going to happen to them for their recalcitrant ways) at all? First Moses is saying, I shall be provoking you (Israelites) to jealousy over those (humans who are) not a nation (of My making); Over an unintelligent nation (umm... that would be us, the Gentiles) shall I be vexing you.(Boy, Howdy! Is this ever a truth!)
Yet Isaiah is very daring and is saying, "I (God) was found by those (humans) who are not seeking Me; I became disclosed to those (humans) who are not inquiring for Me." Now (however) to Israel He is saying, (frustrated and angry) "The whole day I spread out My hands to a stubborn and contradicting people!"
I am saying, then, Does not God thrust away His people? May it not be coming to that! For I also am an Israelite, out of Abraham's seed, Benjamin's tribe. (Therefore) God does not thrust away His people (the Israelites) whom He foreknew. Or have you not perceived in Elijah what the scripture is saying, as he is pleading with God against Israel? "Lord, Thy prophets they kill, Thine altars they dig down, and I was left alone, and they are seeking my soul." But what is that which apprises saying to him (Elijah)? "I (God) left for Myself seven thousand men who do not bow the knee to the image of Baal."
Here we have God's foreknowledge of "His people".
I agree. But, still it is not foreknowledge of the future, as a fact.
Again, though, what God foreknows here, because of his intimate experiences with them, are His set-apart-by-covenant humans, namely, "His people," Israel and their individual hearts. Thus, He is intimately acquainted with their wrong ways
of thinking, which show up in their stubbornness and contradictions. However, God also foreknew Paul, for his foreknowing his heart, in much the same way that He foreknew those 7,000 Israelites that had not bowed their knee to worship Baal for being equally acquainted, intimately, with their righteous hearts. And so we read in The History how Jehovah used this foreknowledge of them to set these 7,000 aside from the destruction He was going to bring, through Jehu, Hazazel and Elisha, whom He also foreknew, to those unrighteous ones who did worship Baal, also whom He foreknew.
And finally this quote from Peter's first letter to the Believing Jews scattered (or sown) in to Asia for their belief in Jesus Christ:
Wherefore, (you Jewish believers by) girding up the loins of your comprehension, being sober, expect perfectly the grace which is being brought to you at the unveiling of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, not configuring to the former desires, in your ignorance, but, according as He Who calls you is holy, you (Jewish believers) also become holy in all behavior, because it is written (to you) that, Holy shall you (Israelites) be, for I am holy.
And if you are invoking the Father, Who is judging (you each) impartially according to each one's work, you may behave, for the time of your sojourn, with fear, being aware that not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, were you ransomed from your vain behavior, (behavior) handed down by tradition from the fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, (Jesus, who is given) as of a flawless and unspotted lamb, foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world, yet manifested in the last times because of you (the Jewish believers), who through Him are believing in God, Who rouses Him (Jesus, the Lambkin)from among the dead and is giving Him (Jesus) glory, so that your faith and expectation is to be in God.
You said, with much emphasis:
Here we have God's foreknowledge of the blood of Christ before the disruption of the world.
On that, given what I've learned of proginōskō
, from the last two quotes, I would disagree.
However, I can't fault you or any other Believers who think that Jesus' sacrifice was foreknown, as a fact, because you were taught to think this, on purpose, by the KJV interpreters who deliberately and seriously mistranslated these
words of Peter's this
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who, verily, was foreordained before the foundation of the world
, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."
Did you catch that? The KJV interpreters 'foreknew' that if they put the word 'foreknown' here that their cover would be blown because this passage, above all the others, shows that it was Jesus who was foreknown by the Father, intimately and personally, (John 17:24
) before the disruption of the world- Not His sacrifice, as a fact, known before the 'foundation' of the world, as if it had already happened for God foreknowing (and even planning?!?
God forbid!) 'The
Future' like it was all laid out before Him in all it's excruciating and sinful detail.
So, they used foreordained
, which is not even a synonym, because, without the knowledge present in our thoughts that God knows the future, in this way
, Calvin's false teaching that there are those predestined for 'heaven' just like there are those predestined for 'hell', would be shown for what it is- a lie
. A very logical and internally consistent lie, but a lie, nonetheless.
And so that peculiar idea that comes in to your head when you read the word, 'predestination', was actually translated into existence, right along with that peculiar hell that John Calvin loved so much.
For the KJV interpreters hid the truth from us here by seriously
as 'foreordained' and katabole
as 'foundation' - a diabolical and deliberate double deception that worked very well toward making Believers think a very confusing thought about what exactly your God foreknows, even as you said of this quote, with much emphasis:
Here we have God's foreknowledge of the blood of Christ before the disruption of the world.
Which brings us now to prognōsis
Did you follow the link? Funny, isn't it, how we transferred into English, with spelling intact from the Greek, but with only a slight difference in pronunciation our noun 'prognosis'?
What does that tell you about what this word really
Well, here are the two quotes from the CLV, annotated as before:
Men! Israelites! Hear these words: Jesus, the Nazarene, a Man demonstrated to be from God for you by powerful deeds and miracles and signs, which God does through Him in the midst of you, according as you yourselves are aware -- This One, given up in the specific counsel and prognōsis
(foreknowledge) of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate, Whom God raises, loosing the pangs of death, forasmuch as it was not possible for Him to be held by it.
What does this curious phrase, "...this One, given up in the specific counsel
(foreknowledge) of God" mean? For two things are at play here to determine that this One should be given up: specific (or determined) counsel and a prognōsis
So here in Acts 2 we have the foreknowledge of God specifically applied to the sacrifice of Christ.
Well, I wouldn't use the word 'applied'. I would say that here we have Peter revealing
that the prognōsis
of God, gained from His specific counsel with Wisdom (Jesus), specifically determined that a sacrifice would now
be needed because the world we were intended to know was disrupted in the Garden when The Adam turned.
In other words, it was determined, by counsel among God's plurality, that, after the disruption of the world, not before it
, Jesus needed to become a human being, created without a deposit of human male sperm and thus, not of 'the seed' of Adam, but, of the woman only; hence a virgin birth. And then, for being the only sexually begotten Son of God, which means He is a human with an untainted spirit, He would be put to death by Satan, (of whom the scriptures say he would not have murdered Jesus had he foreknown what was going to happen) because Satan thought he would win out over God by killing His Son (even as God foreknew what Satan would do; remember the chess game parable?) Why? So Jesus could enter the realm of the dead and get those keys!!
, God would raise Him from the dead! GLORY! And thus loose the pangs of death that came on us because of sin, through faith in Jesus! A-MEN! Even as Paul later explained:
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit (offering) of those (dead humans) who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all (humans) are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all (humans) be vivified."
And now you know, Doc, besides from a literal reading of the Genesis account, exactly where I got the strange and seemingly stupid notion that Jehovah did not know, as a fact that The Adam was going to turn, before He created them! It was from what Peter said here.
So, with whom did God counsel? And why was this counsel called determined or specific?
My answer is found here in these quotes:
"Now I am saying, for as much time as the enjoyer of an allotment is a minor, in nothing is he of more consequence than a slave, being master of all, but is under guardians and administrators until the time purposed by the father. Thus we (Jews) also, when we (Jews) were minors, were enslaved under the elements of the world. Now, when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that He should be reclaiming those who are under law, that we (Jews) may be getting the place of a son."
How did God know it was the 'full time'? In other words what does it mean that the time was right to send His Son?
It has been said that because of the Roman rule of the civilized world at that time, with the Roman peace and the Roman roads, that the timing for Jesus to come was perfect for all that followed, right up to the foretold destruction of the Jewish Temple and thus the Jewish way of life, in 70 A.D. And recently I read about how, because of the way
the Pharisees and Sadducees thought, it would not be hard to predict that they would kill Jesus for the things He both said and did.
And so I ask this: Jesus could read the thoughts, or hearts, of men, often freaking them by answering, out-loud, questions they had only thought. Which means he can know the true intentions of anyone who's thoughts He comes to know and so He can act and speak uncannily concerning them. Indeed, John says this of Him:
"Now as He was in Jerusalem at the Passover in the festival, many believe in His name, beholding His signs which He did. Yet Jesus Himself did not entrust Himself to them, because of His knowing all men, for He had no need that anyone should be testifying concerning mankind, for He knew what was in mankind."
"He knew what was in mankind". And for His foreknowing them this way, the prognōsis
was that He shouldn't entrust Himself to them, even though they believed in his Name but only
for the miracles He had done." Of which He also said to the really
stubborn ones, "...and if ever you are not believing Me
, be believing the works
, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
The last quote is once again from Peter's first letter to the Believing Jews scattered (or sown) in to Asia for their belief in Jesus Christ:
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen expatriates of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia, (expatriated) according to the prognōsis
(foreknowledge) of God, the Father, in holiness of spirit, for obedience and (because of the)sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: May grace and peace be multiplied to you!"
Here in first Peter, Peter is an apostle according to the foreknowledge of God.
On that there would be some disagreement. Not necessarily between you and I but scholarly disagreement over who Peter said God had this prognōsis
of, the Jewish humans in the Asian scattering (the word 'Elect' was unjustifiably added in the KJV at the beginning of 'verse' 2 in order to justify this thought) or of Peter who was to be an apostle. The Greek seems unclear here.
However, after much study and thought, I find that I have a different take. First off, Peter does not write like Paul. Peter writes like Peter. And Peter, while an intelligent man, was not a man learned in letters, like Paul was. He was a Galilean and a fisherman. So, his meanings are sometimes more difficult to discern; for his writing style seems to me to be like someone who writes run together sentences and leaves out important prepositions. (See 2 Peter 3:19-21 for a good example of what I mean.)
So, given that, I also note that Peter chose the word prognōsis
here, not proginōskō
is a verb that, in it's usage, always clearly refers to the knowledge gained of a human for knowing, intimately, their hearts, even as a human can do this and even I've shown it to be. While prognōsis
is a noun that in it's first and only other usage clearly indicates that what God knew ahead of time, or had foreknowledge of, was an event
that would take place, not of a person; specifically His prognōsis
that the sacrifice of Jesus was now needed after the world was disrupted. And for that significant difference I conclude that what Peter is trying to say is that God's prognōsis
was that these believing Jews would be 'thru- sown' in to Asia for their faith which was, "…in holiness of spirit, for obedience and (because of the) sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ".
And the fact that this greeting was obviously meant by Peter to be an encouragement, reminding them that God knew what they were going through, I was helped to conclude that what God 'foreknew' here was His prognōsis
that they would be expatriated for their belief in Jesus as the Messiah.
OK that's all of them.
It's taken me a long time, a lot of typing and a lot of research to get to this point; and again I think you Doc for hanging in there with me and challenging me as you have.
Let me sum up with a word picture what I perceive Paul and Peter meant when they used the word proginōskō
to describe what Jehovah actually 'foreknows' and how I think this gives Him a prognōsis
or 'foreknowledge' of the immediate future.
On September 11, 2001 America was attacked by radical Muslim terrorists trained in a seriously wrong way of thinking. Seriously
wrong because, with these wrong thoughts in their hearts they were able to override their own instinct for self preservation and 'righteously' (from their perspective) murder more than three thousand of us in a matter of a few hours by using our freedom to travel as we wish and where we wish, against us.
Obviously, then, the God who knows when a single bird falls from it's nest and dies and who can tell me, should He need to, tomorrow, how many hairs I have left on my head after I wash and dry it, must have known before, even as the widows of the Twin Towers top most floors filled up the passenger laden airliner's cockpit view that single second before the first impact, that thousands of humans were going to die that day.
So, I ask, when
did God begin to know that the events of this day were going to happen? From the foundation of the world
? This is what you were taught to believe.
I say not. It is an Ugly and Capricious God, indeed, Who would create us knowing, as a fact and that with excruciating detail, what would happen when He created us. And then
keep on watching us destroy ourselves and each other in horrible ways while He takes tens of centuries to work out His 'Plan A' to save us.
So, when did
Jehovah begin to know that the events of September 11, 2001 A.D. were coming?
My answer: When the evil heart of the wrong- thinking human, Osama Bin Laden, first conceived the idea.Not a second before
Think about it.
Concerning the rest of your replies to what I wrote, Doc, I have saved them and for now I will simply say, "Thank you." You've given me some thoughts to ponder even as I hope I have done the same for you.
I admit that I currently don't possess a clear understanding of the 'End Times' or of that time when God is All and in All, but I am working on it. And that is because I foreknow, from experience, that I will find that understanding because I know that The Words were meant to be understood by those whose eyes have been opened and can become acquainted with truth and thus with discernment.
It's taken me almost 17 years worth of new thoughts and much unlearning
to gain this weird understanding I have now. And so I will continue to think on these things till I know even as I am known.
END OF PART TWO