Author Topic: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...  (Read 14925 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #150 on: October 15, 2009, 05:14:12 PM »
Hey there!

Quote from: Eleutheros

All I will say to you in reply, for now, is that my eyes were opened, many years ago, when I realized that The Words were telling me that, not only was it was possible for me to stop sinning- for having the 'spirit of Jesus making its home in me', as Paul put it, or, for being 're-sired by the sperm of Jehovah', as John put it- but that it was expected, by God and reasonably so, that I stop sinning and start being righteous exactly because I now have the very Nature of God in me; His own Divine Nature, imparted to me in similar fashion as an earthly father passes his nature on to his children

Well, the way I am understanding this quote is, you believe it is up to you to stop sinning on your own. If that is possible what did Jesus need to die for?

Now CHB, you know darn good and well that I wasn't saying any such thing and that your question is a facetious one! (Remember, I know, now that you're a 'smart alec'  :icon_jokercolor:).
 
But, just for the record and for your sake also, I will say plainly that I do not believe that it is possible for me to stop sinning on my own.

I need Jesus' spirit in me first, just like you do. And that is what Jesus had need to die for so that He, through spirit, could do just that, enter us, through faith.
Then He and I together can start to accomplish what once was impossible for me to do on my own, namely to start being righteous through my being obedient to His spirit's promptings.

And when I am being obedient to His spirit guess what? I'm not sinning!

And do you know how He speaks to me, how He prompts me? Through my cleansed conscience; that still, small voice inside me that says what is right and wrong to do. And that cleansed conscience can really work wonders in a person who has received a deposit of divine sperm within that re-sires us and imparts the Divine Nature of God the Father to us, even as that fresh new human begins to grow inside of us, where Jesus said the kingdom of God is.

I bold faced my quote above so you might now perceive what I actually wrote.

Here are some of the scriptures that spoke these things into my heart of thoughts. There are a lot of them. (NOTE: Mostly I present the scriptures without the artificial chapter/ verse divisions. However since I can't quote whole letters and historical accounts I try to limit the quotes to whole thoughts so the context might be understood; with the success of that, for my choosing where to start and stop, to be for you to decide.)
 
And I will say, CHB, up-front, that if you are truly desiring to understand what I am saying (remember agreement and understanding are not the same things), you will read them with what I said remaining in your mind so that you may perceive 'where I am coming from'.

Then you will better be able to discern the differences and argue against me more effectively, if that is your wish, or understand with me from the desire to comprehend a brother in Christ who is sharing his heart of thoughts with you.

Likewise, if you don't care to understand, or if your motive is just to gainsay me, you will likely just skip past them, maybe reading one or two short ones as you scroll, but for the most part you will ignore them because you already 'know' what they're going to say and what you're going to say against it, from your understanding.

And for your 'knowing already' what they're going to say and what you will say to counter them--CHB, I cannot 'clear away' the coloring your understanding will bring to them, (yes, I know, it's my perception that's colored not yours…) but for me they are as plain as language can be (of course I know already what you think about St. John and John's 3 letters for having read your post through…).

Here we go:

"Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.
And you are aware that He was manifested that He should be taking away our sins, and in Him is no sin.
Everyone who is remaining in Him is not sinning. Everyone who is sinning sees Him not, neither knows Him.
Little children, let no one be deceiving you. He who is doing righteousness is just, according as He is just.
Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning. For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary.
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His sperm is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.
In this are apparent the children of God and the children of the Adversary: everyone who is not doing righteousness is not of God, and who is not loving his brother." 1 John 3: 4-10

"So has all of His divine power, that tends to life and devoutness, been presented to us through the recognition of Him Who calls us to His own glory and virtue; through which have been presented to us the precious and greatest promises, that through these you may become participants of the divine nature, fleeing from the corruption which is in the world by lust.
Now for this same thing also, employing all diligence, in your faith supply virtue, yet in virtue knowledge, yet in knowledge self-control, yet in self-control endurance, yet in endurance devoutness, yet in devoutness brotherly fondness, yet in brotherly fondness love.
For your possessing these and increasing is constituting you not idle nor yet unfruitful in the recognition of our Lord, Jesus Christ." 2 Pet 2:3-8

"Jesus answered them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that everyone who is doing sin, is a slave of sin.
Now the slave is not remaining in the house for the eon. The son is remaining for the eon.
If ever, then, the Son should be making you free, you will be really free." John 8: 34-36.

"Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; no revilers, no extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom.
And some of you were these, but you are bathed off, but you are hallowed, but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God."  1 Cor 6:9-11

"What then? Should we be sinning, seeing that we are not under law, but under grace? May it not be coming to that!
Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?
Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over.
Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness." Rom 6: 15-17

"A wretched man am I! What will rescue me out of this body of death? Grace! I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.  Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death.
For what was impossible to the law, in which it was infirm through the flesh, did God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh, that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit.
For those who are in accord with flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit. For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.
Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you. Now if anyone has not Christ's spirit, this one is not His.
Now if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is life because of righteousness. Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you." Rom 7:24-8:10

"Let him who steals by no means still be stealing: yet rather let him be toiling, working with his hands at what is good, that he may have to share with one who has need.
Let no tainted word at all be issuing out of your mouth, but if any is good toward needful edification, that it may be giving grace to those hearing.
And do not be causing sorrow to the holy spirit of God by which you are sealed for the day of deliverance.
Let all bitterness and fury and anger and clamor and calumny be taken away from you (along) with all malice, yet become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, dealing graciously among yourselves, according as God also, in Christ, deals graciously with you. Become, then, imitators of God, as beloved children, and be walking in love, according as Christ also loves you, and gives Himself up for us, an approach present and a sacrifice to God, for a fragrant odor.
Now, all prostitution and uncleanness or greed -- let it not even be named among you, according as is becoming in saints -- and vileness and stupid speaking or insinuendo, which are not proper, but rather thanksgiving.
For this you perceive, knowing that no paramour at all or unclean or greedy person, who is an idolater, has any enjoyment of the allotment in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no one be seducing you with empty words, for because of these things the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness.
Do not, then, become joint partakers with them, for you were once darkness, yet now you are light in the Lord.
As children of light be walking (for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth), testing what is well pleasing to the Lord.
And be not joint participants in the unfruitful acts of darkness, yet rather be exposing them also, for it is a shame even to speak of the hidden things occurring, done by them."  Eph 4:28-5:12

"Having then, brethren, boldness for the entrance of the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by a recently slain and living way which He dedicates for us, through the curtain, that is, His flesh, and a great Priest over the house of God, we may be approaching with a true heart, in the assurance of faith, with hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience, and a body bathed in clean water.
We may be retaining the avowal of the expectation without wavering, for faithful is He Who promises.
And we may be considering one another to incite to love and ideal acts, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, according as the custom of some is, but entreating, and so much rather as you are observing the day drawing near.
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins, but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile.
Anyone repudiating Moses' law is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?" Heb 10:19-21

"If we should be saying that we are having fellowship with Him and should be walking in darkness, we are lying and are not doing the truth.Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin.
If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we should be avowing our sins, He is faithful and just that He may be pardoning us our sins and should be cleansing us from all injustice.
If we should be saying that we have not sinned, we are making Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:6-10

"Now I am saying, walk in spirit, and you should under no circumstances be consummating the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want.
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness, idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects, envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.
Now the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control: against such things there is no law." Gal 5:16-23

Thanks for reading all that. There is a good handful more but these are the ones I think do a good job of explaining my understanding.

Here I want to pause a second and explain why I am going to shorten these quotes that follow to the artificial chapter/verse divisions: I want to emphasize the word conscience. Read through them keeping in mind what I said I believe, so you can understand my understanding and better refute it from your own understanding.

"Then those who heard, being convicted by conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the middle." John 8: 9

"In this, I am exerting myself also, to have a conscience which is no stumbling block toward God and men, continually." Acts 24:16

"… who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,… "Rom 2:15

"The truth am I telling in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifying together with me in holy spirit,…"Rom 9:1

"Wherefore it is necessary to be subject, not only because of indignation, but also because of conscience."Rom 13:5

"But not in all is there this knowledge. Now some, used hitherto to the idol, are eating of it as an idol sacrifice, and their conscience, being weak, is being polluted." 1Cor 8:7

"For if anyone should be seeing you, who has knowledge, lying down in an idol's shrine, will not the conscience of him who is weak be inured to the eating of the idol sacrifices?" 1Cor 8:10

"Now in thus sinning against brethren, and beating their weak conscience, you are sinning against Christ." 1 Cor 8:12

"Everything that is sold at the meat market be eating, examining nothing because of conscience." 1 Cor 10:25

"If anyone of the unbelievers is inviting you, and you want to go, be eating everything that is placed before you, examining nothing because of conscience.
Yet if anyone should be saying to you, "This is a sacred sacrifice," do not eat, because of that one who divulges it, and conscience.
Yet conscience, I am saying, not that of yourself, but that of another. For why is my freedom being decided by another's conscience?" 1Cor 10:27-29

"For our boasting is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and sincerity of God, not in fleshly wisdom, but in the grace of God, we behaved ourselves in the world, yet more superabundantly toward you." 2 Cor 1:12

"But we spurn the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor yet adulterating the word of God, but, by manifestation of the truth, commending ourselves to every man's conscience in God's sight." 2 Cor 4:2

"Being aware, then, of the fear of the Lord, we are persuading men, yet we are manifest to God. Now I am expecting to be manifest in your consciences also." 2 Cor 5:11

"Now the consummation of the charge is love out of a clean heart and a good conscience and unfeigned faith,…" 1 Tim 1:5

"…having faith and a good conscience,…" 1Tm 1:19

"…having the secret of the faith in a clear conscience." 1Tim 3:9

"…in the hypocrisy of false expressions, their own conscience having been cauterized;…" 1 Tim 4:2

"Grateful am I to God, to Whom I am offering divine service from my ancestors with a clear conscience, as I have an unintermittent remembrance concerning you in my petitions, night and day,…"2Tim 1:3

"All, indeed, is clean to the clean, yet to the defiled and unbelieving nothing is clean, but their mind as well as conscience is defiled." 1Tim 1:15

"… which is a parable for the present period, according to which both approach presents and sacrifices are being offered, which can not make the one offering divine service perfect as to the conscience,…"Heb 9:9

"…how much rather shall the blood of Christ, Who, through the eonian spirit offers Himself flawless to God, be cleansing your conscience from dead works to be offering divine service to the living and true God?" Heb 9:14

"Else would they not cease being offered, because those offering divine service, having been once cleansed, are having no longer any consciousness of sins?"Heb 10:2

"…we may be approaching with a true heart, in the assurance of faith, with hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience, and a body bathed in clean water." Heb 10:22

"Pray concerning us, for we are persuaded that we have an ideal conscience, in all wanting to behave ideally." Heb 13:8

"…for this is grace, if, because of consciousness of God, anyone is undergoing sorrows, suffering unjustly."1 Pet 2:19

"… having a good conscience, that, in what they are speaking against you as of evildoers, they may be mortified, who traduce your good behavior in Christ." 1 Pet 3: 16

"…the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,…" 1 Pet 3:21

That's all 32 of the NT chapter/verse quotes that contain the Greek word, sün-ā'-dā-sēs.

END OF PART ONE
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 05:24:36 PM by Eleutheros »

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #151 on: October 15, 2009, 05:20:57 PM »
PART TWO

Now CHB, I'm not 'bombarding' you with all these scriptures out of insincere motives. God forbid. My conscience is clean concerning my motives.

I selected and cut and pasted and 'cleaned up' all those scriptures for posting because I truly do want you to perceive that it is possible for you to stop sinning by starting to be righteous and that through being obedient to the spirit of Jesus inside you that re-sired you and now speaks to you through your cleansed conscience; 'cleansed by the blood of Jesus' as we are want to say.

Many years ago, long before I began to develop my understanding of Genesis 1-3, I made a list like this (but with the context). And as I read through it I was struck by the importance Paul and Peter attached to their conscience for their knowing that they were walking with God and pleasing Him in that walk. They speak of it as if it is a 'reference point' from which you can measure your 'walk'. Thus I was struck soundly with understanding by how much they depended on it.

Yet I had never, ever, even to this day, heard a teaching or a sermon or even came to know of a book that expounded on this. It's like our conscience is ignored by modern Medieval Christians. Pun intended.

And really why shouldn't it be ignored? Given that medieval theologies were devised to shift the onus for Sin squarely onto God and away from the men and women who commit them; at least in our understandings, our theologies, but not in truth.

The effect on me and my understanding was startling. I began to realize that there was something here that I had never heard before from modern Medieval Christian theology, a way of understanding that was older than Augustine and therefore beyond a modern Christians ability to comprehend, exactly because of their modern Medieval Christian theologies. (What's that? I did, didn't I? I just stepped in poop! I'm not sure, but I think I just claimed to know more about the Word of God than all those Godly men of old!)

Listen, CHB, I know you don't like the 'me' you perceive through my typing, I understand that. But try to get past that, if you're willing and grasp that it is not only possible for you to be set free from Sin in this life so that you stop sinning but it is expected by your God that you start the learning of righteousness in this life exactly as He has made it possible for you to do through His grace and your faith in Jesus Christ, your repentance and your baptism.
 
So, yes, you can know that you are pleasing to God because "…all of His divine power that tends to life and devoutness has been presented to YOU through the recognition of Him Who calls YOU to His own glory and virtue"!

In other words, He has given y-o-u, YOU the ability, now, through your faith, repentance and baptism to be righteous because you are now begotten anew, (exactly like Jesus said you needed to be in order to perceive the kingdom of God) through His own deposit of Divine Sperm that you might receive His Divine Nature, which is virtuous because He chooses good over evil consistently even as He too has a conscience that tells Him the difference between what is right to do and what is wrong to do.

"Now of well doing and contributing be not forgetful, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased." Heb 13:16

"For the rest, then, brethren, we are asking you and entreating in the Lord Jesus, that, according as you accepted from us how you must be walking and pleasing God (according as you are walking also), that you may be superabounding yet more, for you are aware what charges we give to you through the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God: your holiness. You are to be abstaining from all prostitution; each of you is to be aware of his own vessel, to be acquiring it in holiness and honor, not in lustful passion even as the nations also who are not acquainted with God.
No one is to be circumventing and overreaching his brother in the matter, because the Lord is the Avenger of all these, according as we said to you before also, and certify, for God calls us, not for uncleanness, but in holiness. 1 Thess 4:1-7

"Wherefore, accepting an unshakable kingdom, we may have grace through which we may be offering divine service in a way well pleasing to God, with piety and dread, for our God is also a consuming fire. 
Let brotherly fondness be remaining.
Be not forgetting hospitality, for through this some were oblivious when lodging messengers.
Be mindful of those bound, as bound together with them; of those maltreated, as being yourselves also in the body.
May matrimony be honorable in all, and the bed undefiled, for paramours and adulterers will God be judging.
May fondness for money not be your manner, being sufficed with what is present, for He has declared: 'Under no circumstances may I be lax regarding you, neither by any means may I be forsaking you'."Heb 12:28-13:5

OK. There is my answer given for your understanding of my understanding.

So, now, I would ask you, with all the sincerity I can type "What is wrong in this understanding, according to your understanding?"

Quote from: CHB
If you are referring to St John to prove that you can stop sinning on your own, you have to remember that John was written before Jesus was crucified. There was no Savior at that time.

This is really new news to me. But, what of that? Most everything I quoted is from Paul and Peter.

Quote from: CHB
If you are referring to John 1 2 or 3, then these were written to the Israelites, people who were under Moses' law and the New Covenant.

After reading what I wrote above do you still think John 1, 2 & 3 don't apply to you?

Quote from: CHB
Paul was given the final revelation of salvation which was first to the Jew's then finally to the Gentiles.

OK. So, you're on the tail end of it all, unless your Jewish, then, of course, your positioned closer to the butt.  :winkgrin:

But what of that? I remember someone somewhere saying that there is no partiality with God.

There are lots of quotes from Paul in there, CHB.

However… Am I perceiving correctly that you're trying to eliminate as much scripture as possible from applying to you? Just my impression.

Quote from: CHB
We Gentiles are not under any laws.

How convenient!  :wink2:

No Old Covenant laws, Yes. Never were. Instead we all, Jew and Gentile alike, have a new law to obey: the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus, which obedience to this law brings righteousness; something the Mosaic law could not do because without Him inside of us; without that sperm thingy going on; all the Mosaic Law could do is let us know just how awful we really are, that is, of course, before He came into our life and imparted the Virtue-loving Nature of His own Father to us, Who is agape or 'fondness and affection'.
 
Quote from: CHB
Paul says we are in Christ and are NOW sitting in heaven in him on the right hand of God.

CHB, I did a NT word search with 'right hand' and 'are in Christ' and could not find a quote that said this. Could you help me to know where you got this from?

Quote from: CHB
So, spiritually we are not sinners but physically we are.

Ever hear of Presence.tv? 'Cause this sounds like something the folks over there would say.

Quote from: CHB
Hope you can understand what I am saying here.

Yes I do understand. And I hope the same thing.

However, could you confirm, for my understanding, if you are reading stuff from the folks at Presence and also provide me with the scripture reference you are referring to about the 'right hand' thingy? Seriously I couldn't find any quote that said we are in Christ and are now sitting in heaven in Him on the right hand of God.

Quote from: CHB
I am not the best at explaining things, I am a smart alec remember?? :laughing7: Seriously!!! but only in fun :laughing7:

Yea, I know you're a 'smart alec', but your also smart. And you're doing fine.

So, now that I know you better I think we can have some fun while learning more from each other than either one of us can learn on our own- as long as we're honest and keep our conscience's clean concerning what we say. :wink3:

Quote from: CHB
You keep saying that we were created to be good and you are right but not in this lifetime.

Would you believe me if I told you that I foreknew you were going to say that!  :grin:

Quote from: CHB
Jesus said "no man is good except one that is God" (Luke 18:19).

I am familiar with your understanding; and for that you're thinking that what Jesus is really doing here is humbling Himself for, in essence, saying, "Everyone is bad, when compared to God; even Me, His only sex-born Son; only God is truly good, certainly not Me… "

Does that sound right? If it doesn't, why not? How would you restate your understanding of this verse besides simply quoting it?

Well this verse, like so many, because of those artificial chapter/verse divisions is a favorite for proof texting. That being said, have you ever had anyone put this verse in context for you? If not, let me try and you be the judge as to whether or not I am giving you the truth.

Jesus was addressing Himself to a mixed crowd composed of His detractors and those Jewish humans who just didn't know what to think about Him. And as usual, He was not making any friends among the Jewish leaders who were always watching Him, even as He did and said things that defied their traditions, in public and on purpose, literally, just to piss them off so the people would come to perceive the hypocrisy of their traditions.
 
Jesus was done conversing with them and was leaving, literally getting 'on the road again', when a chief among the Jews, a ruler and a rich young one at that, came hurriedly up to Him and kneeling before Him asked Him a very insightful question.

Let's look at the initial Q & A from all three accounts:

"And lo! one coming to Him said, 'Teacher, what good shall I be doing that I should be having life eonian?' Yet He said to him, 'Why are you asking Me concerning good? One is good. Yet if you are wanting to be entering into life, keep the precepts'." Matt 19:16-17

"And at His going out into the road, lo! one certain rich man, running toward Him and falling on his knees before Him, inquired of Him, 'Good Teacher! What shall I be doing that I should be enjoying the allotment of life eonian?' Now Jesus said to him, 'Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except One, God. With the precepts you are acquainted'..." Mk 10:17-19

"And a certain chief inquires of Him, saying, 'Good Teacher, by doing what should I enjoy the allotment of life eonian?' Now Jesus said to him, 'Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except One, God. With the precepts you are acquainted'..." Luk 18:18-20

This Jewish ruler, this rich, young prince among men, understood, from the Scriptures, that doing good was tied intimately with eonian life; which means he believed in the resurrection. And resurrection is of God. Now, putting aside the possibility of some sly reference to the Midrash here, I want you to note that in this CLV translation one of the 'one's' is capitalized as 'One'; and especially note the question in Matthews account: "Why are you asking Me concerning good? One is good.

What He was saying, in essence, to this very sincere young man who was humbling himself before Him, was, 'Why are you asking Me about goodness?' Or 'Why give me the title "Good"? Only God is "Good"'.

In other words, 'Don't ask me what single thing you need to be doing to inherit your allotment of eonian life, ask God'.

Simply enough, then, Jesus was confronting this man with His own Divinity.

And this is supported by what follows, because the Greek intimates, in all three accounts, that Jesus was saying something like this after, "However, if you still want an answer, then…"; for He knew this man did not believe Him to be God, despite giving Him the title, 'Good'.

Even so, my Savior and LORD had compassion on Him for His sincerity and for knowing that He was not lying about keeping the commandments; for Mark adds this: Now Jesus, looking at him, loves him, and said to him, "Still one thing you are wanting. Go. Whatever you have, sell, and be giving to the poor, and you will be having treasure in heaven. And hither! Follow Me, picking up the cross."

Of course the man walks away dejected because He was really, really rich.

But don't worry too much because Jesus will still do the impossible and restore this rich man to The Father.
 
CHB, I would ask you, now, to ponder this: To His disciples, during His 'Sermon on the Mount' Jesus said this "You then shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 5:48 (The verb tense is in the present, tense, not the future;  "You shall be" not "You shall be made").

Why would He command them, with a command of expectation, for that is what this is, if He couldn't reasonably expect them to do it, that is be perfect?
 
What do you think Jesus meant by perfect?

Quote from: CHB
I believe we are learning the good from the bad which will take a lifetime and it is God who will have to perform that in us we can't do nothing on our own.

Well, certainly we can't stop sinning on our own! But we can with Him inside of us, can't we? Wouldn't it be much better for you and those around you and for your allotment of eonian life in the resurrection if you could just do good when you have the opportunity to do bad because you can, now, rather than have to keep sinning and keep learning from it not to sin?
But wait! You can't stop sinning anyway, can you? So what good are the lessons in Sin if you can't learn from them anyway, even given a lifetime? Now there's a poser to ponder!

CHB, The Words say that not only is it possible for you to be set free from Sin but it is expected of those who are truly re-sired of Jehovah to be righteous and do good consistently, in other words, to be virtuous.
 
Quote from: CHB
Didn't Jesus say, "of mine own self I can do nothing"?

Here is the quote in context:

"And He (The Father) gives Him (The Son) authority to do judging, seeing that He is a son of mankind. Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging. "I can not do anything of Myself (like raise the dead and evaluate them). According as I am hearing (from My Father) am I judging; and (so) My judging is just, for I am not seeking My will, but the will of Him Who sends Me. (John 5:26:30)

In context this quote is referring to His intimate relationship with The Father and how the two of them will work together in the resurrection to divide those resurrected into two groups; those who literally did good while in this life and those who literally did bad while in this life, with the judging being done shared between the Human Jesus, who is able to identify with our weaknesses, while reaming sinless Himself and the Spirit Father through whom He gets His ability to understand each humans heart of thoughts so that the evaluation judgments are accurate or 'just'.

It does not mean that Jesus, the Human Being, needs the Father to know how to be good as you are quoting it to mean.
 
Here is a challenge for you: Before you post a quote look it up and read it till you get the context. I've found prayer and a sincere motive to understand the truth works well toward this. Then decide if you think that is a useful quote for conveying your understanding. 'Cause you gotta know, by now, that I 'm gonna look it up too!

Quote from: CHB
Are we more powerful than Jesus was?


My answer is, "No, we are not more powerful than Jesus is." But we can be parallel with Him in our ability to be good by being obedient to His spirit that has made it's home inside us, where the kingdom of God is.

Quote from: CHB
When we become immortal then we can say we are good. Just the way I see things.  :happy3:
 
CHB

Well, I can say that I have the ability to say, with truthfulness, for having a clean conscience before my God, that I am good before I am 'immortal'. And that my 'immortality' is dependent on what I do with what reamains of my life after my re-siring.

So, why is that a wrong or even blasphemous thing for me to say? Because its not truth? Well, why is it not truth?

CHB, do you see things differently now for what I've written, at least with enough understanding to show me where I am wrong, according to your understanding?

For I have laid it all out openly and stand ready to be shown that what I believe is a lie. My motives are good, as God is my witness, because I do not want to be found in that day of Christ's unveiling, when he is separating the good humans from the bad humans, that I am evaluated as bad because what I believed and thus lived my life from, was a lie that proved to be justifying my continued sinning and thus squelched my conscience.

Besides, what have I got to loose, anyway, for thinking I can do good in this life? Besides my life.

Be good!

Dennis!

P.S. I'm working on my reply to your other post but wanted to get this out there so you'll know that I'm still hanging around till I can keep my promise to all and provide an answer to all who would ask it of me.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 04:49:49 PM by Eleutheros »

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #152 on: October 16, 2009, 02:52:33 AM »
Hi Dennis,

Hope you don't mind if I call you dennis?

Quote from: Eleutheros
Then He and I together can start to accomplish what once was impossible for me to do on my own, namely to start being righteous through my being obedient to His spirit's promptings.

That word TOGETHER, is where I find a problem with your quote. The way it is written, you make it sound as if Christ needs your help to accomplish your righteousness or sinlessness. I keep thinking about this verse (Phil. 2:13) For it is GOD which WORKETH IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE".  You see I don't think it is you doing anything but God working in you. God is accomplishing his good pleasure, not yours.

Most of the scriptures you posted are New Covenant teaching, and was written to the Israelites, I don't think we are under any Covenant. We don't have any laws to perform, Christ did it all.

Here is the way I see it.  Jesus sent his disciples to preach to the Jew's. (Matt. 10:5-6)  {Verse 5} Go not into the way of the Gentiles.  When Paul first started preaching he too went to the Jew's but later to the Gentiles. The New Covenant was directed toward the Israelites but not the Gentiles, we have the Mystery that Paul talked about which was a better revelation than the New Covenant. The Mystery that was given to Paul showed that we don't need to be attached to Israel, we are of the family of God, not Israel. We don't have to keep days, or be baptised or any of those things that the Jew's do. It is not by any thing that we do now but all of Jesus Christ. End of answers to part one.

[ quote author=Eleutheros]
After reading what I wrote above do you still think John 1, 2 & 3 don't apply to you?[/quote]

I think the whole Bible is for our learning and admonition but most of it was written to and for Israel.

Quote from: Eleutheros
CHB, I did a NT word search with 'right hand' and 'are in Christ' and could not find a quote that said this. Could you help me to know where you got this from?

(Eph. 1:20) Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and SET HIM AT HIS OWN RIGHT HAND IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES.

(Col. 2:12-13) We are buried with him in baptism, {his baptism} wherein also YE ARE RISEN WITH HIM through the faith of the OPERATION OF GOD.  (Verse 13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, HATH HE QUICKENED TOGETHER WITH HIM.

(Col . 3:1) If ye then BE RISIN WITH CHRIST, seek those things which are above, WHERE CHRIST SITTETH ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

(Col. 3:3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ. 

If we are dead and our life is hid in Christ then we have no more works to perform, Christ does them all. If we are in Christ and Christ is sitting on the right hand of the Father, wouldn't we be there also if we are in Christ?

(Matt. 5:48) You quoted this verse to prove that we must be perfect now but read (Col. 1:28) Paul said that we may present EVERY MAN PERFECT IN JESUS CHRIST. Notice, it says we are perfect IN Jesus Christ. If every man is in Jesus Christ then we are all perfect spiritually. As long as we are in these bodies we are sinful flesh and the flesh cannot please God, but Christ did. When the Father looks at me he only sees his Son not my sin.

Quote from: Eleutheros
OK. So, you're on the tail end of it all, unless your Jewish, then, of course, your positioned closer to the butt.
 

Yea, that's me, I always get the tail end of everything.  :laughing7: :laughing7:

What is wrong with this blame quoteing situation? The words in the quote box keep jumping up every time I try to type, it is so annoying. Are you having this problem as well? I will have to finish this later, it is getting on my nerves trying to type and you can't see what you are typing.   :btantrum: The smilies are screwed up as well.  :sigh:

CHB

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #153 on: October 16, 2009, 04:40:11 PM »
Hi Eleutheros,

Hey, CHB!

Quote from: CHB
I read one post and most of the other one you ask about. You keep mentioning John Calvin and how he believes that God foreknew that Adam was going to fall. Well, so what, John Calvin got one right as we all do. Every one of us is not 100% right but everyone of us has some truth, Calvin just happened to have a bit of truth as all the rest of religion does. The Baptist has some truth, so do Seventh day Advents, even UR's, only thing is, I feel UR is the closest to the truth.
I am aware and agree that the KJV has some mistakes in it, but so do all the others, just like with the religions of the world.

Yep. You're reading the stuff the folks at Presence are putting out. Truly then I do understand 'where you are coming from' and truly I disagree with it.

As for John Calvin- I've already presented my arguments for how he got nothing right and exactly how he did it.

However, let me try out this story I've been pondering to explain what he did to truth:

There was a woman who wanted to bake a delicious cake. So she called up her friend and asked her for a new cake recipe. Her friend was from another country and told her of a wonderful cake her mother used to bake when she was a little girl. The woman decided she wanted this recipe and asked her friend if she could get it for her. So her friend, knowing she couldn't say no, called up her mother in the other country and got the recipe, writing it down exactly as her mother gave it to her in her mother's original language.

However she later thought to herself, "I don't want my friend to have this delicious recipe. I want it for myself. I'll let her think she has the right recipe." So, while copying the recipe into her friend's language she deliberately made some changes that would make the cake seem like her mother's cake while she knew it would not taste the same.

She then passed the changed recipe on to her friend who, not knowing the recipe was tampered with, baked the cake. The cake, while edible, was not the cake it was supposed to be, but not knowing any better, she kept right on baking the cake for a very long time and serving it to her friends because really it wasn't a bad cake.

Then one day her friend's mother came to visit her daughter and baked one of those cakes for her. Well, the woman, knowing of the visit, dropped by. And seeing the cake on the table started to talk about it. Of course she was served a piece by her friend's mother and when she bit into it she realized that this was not the cake she had been baking and serving all that time. She began asking questions of her friend and soon saw that the more she asked about the recipe the more agitated her friend became.

So, knowing something was wrong, but not what, she let the subject drop. Later while her friend was in the bathroom and her friend's mother was in the kitchen she got the mother's overseas phone number from her friend's address book.

She later found a friend who spoke the mother's language and made the costly long distance call. And so, through her friend's truthful translation, she got the true recipe and soon saw where the changes had been made.

When she baked the cake with this, the true recipe, it was the most delicious cake she had ever tasted, exactly like the one she had tasted at her friend's house during her mother's visit.

Needless to say she figured out her friend's deception and never spoke with her again. And so with a renewed vigor, for having the true recipe, she baked these cakes and gave them to as many as would want to try some. And if they asked, she gladly gave them the recipe, freely, for wanting everyone to know how they too could bake such a delicious cake themselves.

It's not a parable, I'm not Jesus. But it does get the idea across of what John Calvin did to truth, don't you think?

As for the 'some truth in all religions' thingy you brought up; let me continue my 'recipe analogy' by asking you a question:

Would a good truthful recipe be useful if some ingredients were left out?
No, you would get something else, a mess, but not a cake. It takes the whole recipe all at once to make a cake.

A somewhat limited analogy, I know, but really I don't want to get in a debate over this point because I already know it's a fruitless one, given the understanding of the Presence folk.


Quote from: CHB
Now, back to your original idea which is I understand, is that God did not know that Adam would fall. You base your idea on one word "katabole", I use the whole Bible…

Yes, I do too.

In fact and of truth, I discovered the deception perpetrated through the deliberate mistranslation of katabole by the Kings interpreters a long time after I had already concluded, from using the whole Bible, that there was no way Jehovah could have known as a fact that the Adam was going to turn before He created them, despite what I read in  Matt 13:35, 25:34, Lu 11:50, Jn 17:24, Eph 1:4, Heb 4:3, 9:26, 1 Pet 1:20, Rev 13:8 and 17:8; for I knew there was something seriously wrong with Calvinism a long time before I found out what it was.

One Baptist summer camp evening, my friend 'gave his life to the LORD'. Now my friend and I were partiers, as much as teenagers can be back then and I knew he wasn't sincere. He was just scared. When I asked him about it he said "You know, I just wanted to be on the safe side- I'm saved and going to heaven; it's up to Jesus now to do the rest." It was then that I began to see that there was something wrong with Calvinism, the theology I was taught in my Baptist High School Bible Class.

Jesus was supposed to make a difference in your life, I was taught, but I was also taught that if you make a confession of faith, an emotional one being preferred, then you are saved for all eternity and no matter what you do you can't be plucked from the Fathers hand- no matter what you do- with the unspoken caveat being- even sin.

Of course he and I continued partying for several years after right up to my entrance into the USAF where I got in trouble and later had a real 'face to face showdown' with Jesus such that I weep to this day when I try to tell about it. That was my beginning.
And as I read The Bible on my own I began to realize that not only was it possible for me to stop sinning, it was expected of me by my God that, after my re-siring, I should start being righteous for being obedient to the promptings of the spirit of Jesus that had made it's home in me through my faith in Him.
Do you realize that sentence took me over 25 years to learn how to write?

And I note that what I just wrote is rejected by those who believe it a truth that, "Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world".

And really, why shouldn't it be rejected, given the centuries the Kings English had to shape our thoughts about God? The overwhelming majority of believers are unaware that the foundation that they build their understanding of The Bible on, which foundation is found in the sentence, "Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world" was a foundation laid to disrupt truth so that John Calvin's theology would appear to be supported by The Word of God and therefore appear to be the truth; for katabole means 'disruption', not 'foundation'.

So, given everything I had concluded during those 23 years before I uncovered the truth about katabole,which was not long after I was introduced to UR and was convinced, by its logic, that the peculiar hell of the KJV was actually translated into existence, it was but a happy confirmation of my understanding, not a revelation to my thinking.

And for that, I will state, again, what has not been disproven during my discussions:

The exact same logic used by the Tentmakers themselves to prove that Strongs is unreliable for understanding aion and aionios I took and applied to the understanding Strongs brings to katabole.

Themelios means 'foundation'. Katabole does not. Katabole means 'disruption'-- Just like aiodios means 'eternal' and aion and aionios do not. Aion and aionios mean 'age' and 'age-enduring'.

I just wanted you to know the history here so you would not think that I am ignoring the rest of the Bible just to focus on one word.

However, I do recognize the importance of that one word to Christian understanding even as you and everyone reading this does. For I have heard that sentence over and over again, "Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world", slung down in happy defiance, like a trump card, whenever I've tried to discuss my understanding of salvation with my fellow believers.
But what really surprised me, as I began to hang with UR folk, was how much they loved playing that trump card! Even more so than the Baptist I used to hang with, who at least are beginning to perceive that, among other things, it is the ugliness one is lead to believe about God, for believing this foundational sentence is the truth, that is turning the world off to them.

Quote from: CHB
"… and what it tells me is, God created Adam without any experience of sin and put him in the garden with a serpent and a tree that he should not eat from. For God not to know that he would eat from it would be foolish thinking on God's part. Even I a human, if I put my child in a room full of candy and told him not to eat any, it would be stupid of me to think he wouldn't touch it.

YES! CHB, I was wondering if this was ever going to be brought up; just as I was waiting for it to see if anyone was being inspired enough by what I wrote to point this out. (Doc, I think you were on the track to this with the 'will vs intention' thingy but you didn't state anything specific; you just left it for me to 'discover' what you were wanting to say).
 
Specifically, though, what I agree with is that it would be foolish thinking on God's part to not anticipate that they might disobey Him. And God is no fool. He foreknew the risk He was taking (not gambling that is a different idea altogether) and He had good reason to think that the risk was minimal, for something He couldn't know the outcome of as a fact.

(Remember, the humans in the Garden where not initially like us. Everything was fantastically different and therefore it is a mistake to try and understand the literal account of creation without employing a literal imagination. In other words what we know now, as humans turned away from God, is no indication of what it was like before that moment when Ishsaha and Ish ate.)

Their true innocence, defined as not having a conscience, His creating the Tree of Life that He later had to ban them from, which makes its creation an act of optimism, by the way, (Why create something He knew He was going to have to ban them from? What's in a name?) and the fact that Death and later, murder, was introduced with Sin at the turning, all point to the idea that He always intended and even planned for them to be obedient to His command through trust in Him- Something they were capable of doing.

I've been holding this scripture back just to answer this question when it was brought up.

"And in the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground. And Abel brought of the firstborn of his flock and of the fat portions. And the Lord had respect and regard for Abel and for his offering, but for Cain and his offering He had no respect or regard. So Cain was exceedingly angry and indignant, and he looked sad and depressed."

"And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why do you look sad and depressed and dejected? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it." And Cain said to his brother, "Let us go out to the field." And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him." Gen 4:3-8.

God was displeased with Cain's offering because it did not involve the death of an innocent animal: a model set for them when God Himself killed two rams and made clothing of skins for Adam and Eve. (Another reason why I conclude something that was supposed to happen didn't; God had to kill, on their behalf, because the world was disrupted)

But notice the words of the LORD to Him and note also that God was still talking to them directly.

"If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

How do you understand these words in light of the fact that Jehovah knew, as a fact, from the foundation of the world, that Cain was going to murder his brother Abel?

While pondering that I will give you my take:

"If you do well, will you not be accepted?"

Cain knew what was right for Him to do; offer an animal of his own.

"And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door;…"
 
This is obviously a word-picture warning of what will happen if he 'opens the door'-- Sin will leap in and devour him.But why give him a warning if Jehovah already knows, as a fact that He's going to murder his brother?
 
So, why do we warn our children of dangers? Because we don't want them to get hurt! And so, when we do give them a warning, don't we expect them to hear us and obey even as we sometimes scare them with our warning so they will fear for their own safety?

And if your child trusts you, aren't they more likely to listen to you and do as you say?
 
"… its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Whoa. Why would He say this if it wasn't possible for Him to do? That's like saying to your son, at 5 years old, "I expect you to get a job and earn money now." It is simply something he can't do and you are not a good parent for asking that of him.

So this must have been something God reasonably expected for him to be able to do; it was not something impossible, but very possible, if Cain would hear Jehovah and be obedient to His valid warning: Valid because Jehovah did not know what He was going to do, as a fact, but He knew it would be bad if Cain kept on allowing himself to feel this way.

Sound like any parents you know? And their children?

And now let's turn from Cain to Abel, who pleased God with his obedience… 

Enough said.
 
OK, since the world was disrupted by the turning and because of how I understand Jehovah actually gets His knowledge of the future, it is logical to expect that, because of the direction the world took, that Jehovah was going to have to learn how to deal with these unexpected humans, even while He knew, from its disruption on, what would be needed to fix them, a sinless sacrifice.

Yes, that's right… I said He was going to have to learn how to deal with these turned human beings. :faint:

I'll stop here and let the shock die down…  :wacko2:

Better now?

OK. Do you understand that your shock came because you believe that Jehovah foreknew the fall as a fact? And you beleive that because you believe that Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

OK. Now stop and consider all of Jehovah's interpersonal dealings with the Israelites after He brought them up out of Egypt.

Do you know what He sounds like to me? A Father frustrated with His children's recalcitrant ways, even while He's learning how to deal with them.

OK. Now let me ask you, which idea makes the most sense of all those events and Jehovah's 'mysterious' words during those events, as He led His people to the promised land with an unplanned generation-long, detour along the way:

That He foreknows the future, as a fact?

Or that He learns of future possibilities by being intimately acquainted with the thoughts and hearts of humans, through spirit?

So, His 'plan A' was for them to obey Him exactly as we parents expect the same from our children; with the only difference being that He had every good reason to believe that The Adam, in their innocence, would trust Him and not eat from the Tree of Conscience, when tempted: While we, often (not always though) have good reason to beleive that our children won't obey us given our own lives of disobedience and our own experiences with our children, exactly because, through disobedience, our Parents were corrupted and the world was disrupted.
 
Our own children have inherited the corruption of Father Adam. And so for ourselves also, who inherited this corruption, we can't help but fail to imagine what it could have been like to live in the world Jehovah intended to have happen, had Our Parents been obedient, except for what we can discern for inverting our experiences in our imaginations.

So yes, from where we are now, about 6,000 years removed from those events in Eden, we know it would indeed be stupid of us to put our child into a room full of candy and expect them to obey our command not to eat any of it.

In fact, CHB, because of where we are now, corrupted by 6,000 years of sin and foolishness, if we even heard of a parent doing this we would consider it nothing short of a cruel 'sting-operation' designed to get that parent's children 'into trouble' with them!! And then, if we asked the parents why they did it and they said, "So we could punish them and teach them not to disobey us", we would call such parents capricious and megalomaniacal.

Yet isn't that what we say God did? Because we believe that Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

And why do we say that? Because we believe katabole means 'foundation'; just as we were meant to believe it, so John Calvin's theology would be the truth, according to The Bible.

CHB, do you grasp the idea that it is only with imagination that we can conceive what it was like to be Adam and Eve?
 
They were uselessly innocent. What do you think that was like? Ever look at your son when He was a baby and wonder what he was thinking before he could communicate?

My point is that the world before the turning is beyond our ability to grasp, except for what the ancient words of Genesis 1-3 tell us and for what we can imagine the world might be like, if there were no sin.

Therefore, I perceive that it is irrational to assume that He would command them not to eat if He couldn't reasonably believe that they could refuse a temptation to disobey Him. For Jehovah did not lie to them about what would happen if they ate the fruit; He just told them not to eat it without telling them why he didn't want them to. And it is on that point that I build my case. His silence is just as revealing to me as I perceive it to be irrational and ugly to conclude that God actually willed for them to fall, foreknew they would fall, or planned for them to fall.

(The funny thing is, if He foreknew that they would fall then the other two statements have to be assumed to be true, simultaneously. And that means that it was Man who actually chose God's purpose for Him the instant He created Man. Which means the will of God was subject to Man and that makes Man more powerful than God since Man's foreknown disobedience made it be the will of God to rescue Man from himself!-- Hey, Doc, there's one for you and Martin!  :winkgrin: love you, man!)

END OF PART ONE
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 05:03:41 PM by Eleutheros »

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #154 on: October 16, 2009, 04:43:20 PM »
PART TWO

Here is the gist of it all, CHB. If katabole means 'foundation' in Matt 13:35 & 25:34, Lu 11:50, Jn 17:24, Eph 1:4, Heb 4:3 &, 9:26, 1 Pet 1:20 and Rev 13:8 & 17:8 then logic will lead you to certain unique conclusions about the events in the Garden and about the rest of scripture for The Bible declaring that Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

These are the very conclusions Doc and Martin Zender and 99% of modern Medieval Christians hold as truth-- and that you do as well, CHB: for I sat in on a Presence-sponsored meeting and I know how very needful it is to their understanding that it be a truth that Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world; Preterism aside.

However if 'disruption' is inserted in the above verses for katabole, as the CLV does, then logic compels us toward another and different but still unique conclusion, even one that I have presented here for it being logical to conclude that Jehovah did not know of the turning, as a fact, but only as a possibility, for The Words declaring that Jesus was the lamb slain from the disruption of the world.

Quote from: CHB
You ask if I use to not believe the things I believe now. I grew up in a Baptist environment. Went to the Seventh Day Advent Church a while. Even attended Pentecostal meetings. Joined the World Wide Church of God. Last, I was shown the knowledge about the salvation of all. It was all God's doing. God brought me through all these beliefs for a purpose. I did not learn about the salvation of all through my own doing, you cannot find that any of the disciples or apostles came to Christ on their own, they were all chosen. You were chosen, believe it or not, to know what you know whether it be right or wrong. So was I. I have nothing to brag about as far as knowing anything. Isn't this what Paul said also?

I think I've said enough. I thank you, CHB, for sharing with me your story. How many are they who begin Baptist and must move on, eh?
 
Needless to say I understand why you say, "… they were all chosen. You were chosen, believe it or not, to know what you know whether it be right or wrong. So was I. I have nothing to brag about as far as knowing anything. Isn't this what Paul said also?"

And I won't gainsay it. For if you are helping those in need, as you can when you can, while keeping yourself unspotted from the world (Jam 1:27) then you're religion is undefiled before God. And because He knows, in truthfulness, through spirit, what you know and what you don't know He will fairly evaluate you, on that day when He judges the living and the dead.

Quote from: CHB
I see Doc is back so I will let you two hash it out. :happy3: It has been nice communicating with you.

Same here CHB. You are very perceptive to have asked me that question about the kid in a room full of candy, very insightful. But be careful, though, when you quote scripture to make sure you are quoting it in context, very important that.

Quote from: CHB
You seem very intelligent and have done a lot of studying on this one word.

CHB

Thank you for your very kind word. Know that I appreciate your studiousness and especially your initial courage to speak up; for I know you must have felt some apprehension about 'squaring off' with me for how 'intelligent' you think I am. Courage is as it does.

And trust me when I say that I am a 'nobody' both in the world and in Christendom, any perceived 'intelligence' aside.

Even so, I hope you found out that I'm really toothless and declawed with an abysmal roar. And that I can appreciate a good smart alec.

Yes, I have done a lot of studying on and thinking about this one word, after it became known to me, because I perceive what a difference a single word can make in just the right place, just as I've tried to present that difference here.

Be good!

Dennis!

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #155 on: October 16, 2009, 05:56:55 PM »
To All:

I'm going to be away from my computer for a few days while on a trip. I'll be back to reply to Doc on the serpent thingy, as promised and to CHB if she has anymore questions.

I'm pretty much done debating, though, my heart is satisfied that I can give a good answer, from my understanding, in defense of it.

Which means that I'm desiring to move on.

So, unless there is anyone here who is convinced that 'I'm onto something' and wants to study it further with me with the goal in mind of stregthening this understanding, not debating it, then I will be moving on soon enough.

Be good!

Dennis!

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #156 on: October 18, 2009, 01:57:11 AM »

Hi Dennis,

Why don't you stick around and join us in some of the other discussions? You might have something else to contribute other than what we have been discussing.

CHB

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3070
  • Gender: Female
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #157 on: October 18, 2009, 02:37:32 AM »
 
 
 I would like to hear more   from you too Dennis  and all
 :icon_flower:

  Inlove rose  :HeartThrob:

 

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #158 on: October 21, 2009, 08:43:56 PM »
Hey, Doc!

As promised, here is my reply to the serpent thingy.

Hi Dennis!

Well, I finally got around to doing that extra research on "serpent" (nachash), and I found something interesting. I'm going to post some quotes here from a paper I've found:
This is an article by Michael S. Heiser, PhD. of the Dept. of Hebrew and Semitic studies at UW-Madison. The title of the paper is

The Nachash  and His Seed:
Some Explanatory Notes on Why the "Serpent"
in Genesis 3 Wasn't a Serpent.


As readers of The Façade already know, my view of the fall narrative in
Genesis 3 is quite different than the usual theological or exegetical
fare. As different as it is, it is based on (1) sound Hebrew grammar;
(2) the context of the Hebrew Bible's descriptions of Eden with the
vocabulary of the meeting place of the divine council in wider ancient
near eastern terms and motifs (see the earlier newsletter issue with
that specific PDF file); and (3) sound reasoning that springs from the
first two considerations. In that regard, my explanation provides a
coherent answer for why Eve was not at all surprised that a "serpent"
(a nachash)1 was speaking to her.
In this lesson, I'd like to lay out in more detail, with at least a little
visual help, my translation of the word in Gen. 3 usually translated
"serpent" in Genesis 3 – hannachash . I'll also trace a few
references to the "seed" of hannachash in the Old Testament. Some
of what follows will be familiar, as my goal is to try and tie a few ends
together a bit more tightly for readers.

The Translation of the Word
The Hebrew word  is actually an adjective; meaning "bright",
"brazen [as in shiny brass]) with the prefixed article (ha - the word
"the" in Hebrew). Thus the word is formed #$xfnF + ha for #$xfn@Fha (a dot is
added in the second letter from the right when an article is attached).
The whole word then, in the Hebrew text is #$xfn@Fha, hannachash
(nachash is pronounced "nakash").
What is different about this approach is that I view the base word,
nachash, as an adjective, not a noun. The NOUN spelled nachash in
Hebrew can mean: snake / serpent or one who practices of divination.
The adjective means "bright, brazen" and is itself the base word for
other nouns in Hebrew, like "shining brass" - t#$exon; (nechoshet). In
Hebrew grammar, it is not unusual for an adjective to be "converted"
for use as a noun (the proper word is "substantivized")
.2 A common
example would be "holy one" (with or without the article). If we take
#$xfn@Fha as deriving from the adjective rather than as a noun, the
translation becomes "the shining one", which is quite in concert with
descriptions of the satan figure in the Old Testament. For example, in
Isa 14:12-15, he is called Helel ben-shachar – "The shining one, son of
the dawn." Elsewhere, divine beings are described as "shining" or
luminous, even by use of the adjective #$xfnF. For example:
Daniel 10
4Now on the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was by
the side of the great river, that is, the Tigris, 5I lifted my eyes
and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose
waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! 6His body was like beryl,
his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like
torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze
(t#$exon; ; nechoshet) in color, and the sound of his words like the
voice of a multitude.
Personally, I tend to think that, in light of the serpentine appearance
of divine beings in Yahweh's presence (see that PDF file), what we
have in Genesis 3 is wordplay using all the meanings of the #$xfnF
semantic range. That is, Eve was not talking to a snake. She
was speaking to an bright, shining upright being who was
serpentine in appearance, and who was trying to bewitch her
with lies.


Interestingly, The author takes a literal view of the fall event, while he views the ensuing curse as more metaphorical.

You can read the article in its entirety at: http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/nachashnotes.pdf

What I was arguing originally regarding this word is not too dissimilar, although less exact and detailed. We as Western English speakers are frequently unaware of things like this; that often (as in this case) the Hebrew nouns are taken from the adjectives rather than the other way around. So the Strong's definition that I gave is basically, as this scholar confirms, the more primary meaning of the word nachash.
I also found this on an online encyclopedia : The Hebrew word for serpent is na(c)hash. The root of the word are the Hebrew letters Nun, Het and Shin - "to decipher, to find out". (hence to "divine", and some of the other definitions from Strong's, i.e. prognosticate, learn by experience, etc.)

Hence, I maintain my position that the serpent in the Garden was not a literal snake, but rather the "shining one" who (may have) presented a serpentine appearance, but was not an actual, literal 'snake'.


First I want to thank you for introducing this subject. It has been a real blessing to my understanding to have read the writings of Michael S. Heiser; especially his literal views on The Divine Council, Psalm 82, John 10:22-33, Deut 32:8-9 and Psalm 8.

If any reading this have not read the writings of this man you should Google his name and do so.

So, let me begin by saying that I did not come to this discussion believing that the nachash was  'a snake' in the sense that we speak of a snake today, post-cursed.

You once mentioned the 'cartoonish literal understanding' of a snake most Christians hold to and to which I added that I did not imagine the nachcash as a Sunday School flannel-graph snake dangling from a tree branch while tempting Eve to eat.

I've always worked the curse backward, from a literal understanding, so that what little I could imagine of the nachcash, just from the account itself, was that it was a slender, upright being that walked and talked and that this was not something out of the ordinary to The Adam. And this ability to walk and talk was for some reason other than what could be discerned from the account itself. Then there was the fact that the scriptures teach that somehow, in some way I did not comprehend, this being was, of truth, The Satan, but also not The Satan.

And given the textual support I gave in my original post these are very logical things to conclude.

So, the question to my mind has always been how this intelligent being called the nachcash came to be in the garden; for I recognized that it's presence was necessary to bring about the time of testing, given my understanding of the purpose for which we were created.

(Specifically we were created to be virtuous, as Jehovah is virtuous, that is, to have a conscience and a desire to consistently choose what is right and good to do from that powerful conscience gained through the independently virtuous, singular choice of choosing, first, to trust Jehovah's intentions for them, given a temptation not to.)

OK, so after reading and understanding Michael's logic I find myself in agreement with his contention that there were beings called 'the sons of God' that were not angels nor where they humans. And that this being, the nachcash, was once one of them and that he had a bright, shiny, serpentine appearance.

Therefore it's presence in the fantastic but now lost world of Eden, as a subtle (wise and/or crafty) creature with the ability to communicate with this truly strange and new kind of created being (strange from the nachcash's point of view) that were actually two independent sexual beings, existing as One through their sexuality and called, together, The Adam, was not something 'unusual' for that world.

I came to realize, through Michael's writings, that the key to understanding this creatures motives in allowing itself to be entered by Satan, for that is what happened, was that he saw in this weird, dual-creature called The Adam- a creature weaker than the nachcash was for them being created a little lower than itself, yet surrounded by Jehovah with a glory- was to be given the honour to rule over all of this re-created earth and everything on it, maybe even including the nachcash itself.

So jealousy and envy was its motive.

As well as possibly being desirous of Ishsha for her incredible physical beauty-remember the Nephilim.

Another thing that assisted my understanding was the important role The Adversary fills in the Divine Council- that of an accuser. This particular article was very helpful for uncovering some truly fantastic truths.

Therefore, I perceive that it was known before, by Jehovah, that The Satan would attempt to 'bring down' this new kind of creation that He, Jehovah, delighted in and had put His own faith in for believing it possible for them to resist the temptation to distrust Him and gain virtue before they were given a conscience, unlike the sons of God who were created with a conscience already in place with the result that many turned against God.

For it became apparent to me, as Michael explained Psalm 82 and Deut 32, that these created sons of God all had a conscience; that is, they were given to know the difference between good and evil at their creation. And for this, despite the fact that Jehovah expected them to be righteous, they, all too often, choose not to be righteous but pursued wickedness. Hence, because of the wickedness of these created sons of God, which were numerous both in number and in number of sins, the initial creation of this heavens and its then earth was overturned by Jehovah with a flood of water and plunged into deep darkness.

Of course, after this, Jehovah asked Himself the question I always imagined He asked as we are told He brooded over that ancient, wasted and emptied sphere, "How can We create beings who will know the difference between good and evil and yet choose consistently to do good?

Answer: Let's create them to resemble Us!

We'll make this New One as two sexual beings, Male and Female, by splitting the essence of Ourselves between them so that, through their sexuality, they will exist of like kind, independent of each other, but, in Unity, even as We are. In this way they will come to know all of the Loves, as We know them, experientially! And by giving them the ability to share in Our own ability to create sentient beings through this unifying sexuality, all of the Loves will be passed on to generations of them!

But, before We enable them to reproduce, We will give them a chance, this time, to gain virtue first, before they are granted a conscience...

And it almost worked.

This is how I see it:

One day, a long time after they were created, The Adam were walking near The Tree of Conscience, perhaps to eat a fruit from The Tree of Life for feeling the need to and were contemplating the Tree of Conscience for being so near to it.

Now by this time the exact words of Jehovah that Ish told to Ishsha about the Tree of Conscience had been transformed, at least in her thoughts, to become a belief that if she even so much as touched it's fruit she would actually, physically die- something she likely did not know of experientially, yet, by witnessing death, but knew it meant, 'to cease to exist.'

Now, while they're standing next to the tree, along comes the nachcash, possessed of The Satan through the nacahsh's jealousy.

Previously The Adam had seen the meetings of the sons of God in the Garden but they didn't have a lot to do with these other created beings because, mostly, these other created beings had nothing to do with Ish and Ishsha- even while they admired Ishsha's physical beauty.

But, The Adam were innocent and didn't even know that they were. What they did know, though, was that they both knew they loved each other deeply and preferred each other rather than the company of these rather daunting 'sons of God.'

When the nachcash approaches them it gives no introduction but simply addresses it's words to the beautiful, desirable Ishsha and asks her a question that, to them, must have been a strange question, indeed, coming from one of these sons of God:

"Is it true that God has said you cannot eat the fruit of any of the trees in the Garden?"

The question is asked to feign ignorance; something that can only be accomplished successfully if Ish and Ishsha had every reason to believe that this other created being might have heard something from God differently than they did and was coming to them to ask for clarification.

And so, thinking she was correcting the nachcash's error in understanding, she answers, "No, that's not true. God said we may eat freely from all the trees in the garden except the one in the middle. He told us not to eat from that tree or to even touch it because if we do, we will die."

At this point I imagine that Ish must have been a little taken aback by these words for He knew that was not what Jehovah said.

However, The Satan, elated to hear these words and recognizing the thought behind them, moved quickly to entrap her before Ish can recover and respond, given his hesitancy for this authoritative being's presence and for not understanding, yet, why these wrong words were spoken by Ishsha, The Satan seizes the opportunity by stating the truth to her in much the same way journalists lie to us when they tell us the truth.

It said, with all the authority of one who was superior to them, "Trust me. You will not die as you say because the truth is that God knows that when you eat this fruit you will become wise like God is for knowing of the difference between good and evil."
 
And so, prompted to believe the lie that sounds just like truth, for her own wrong thinking about what Jehovah actually said, she considered the goodness that could be hers, goodness she now believes God was keeping them from and -- she quickly plucks a fruit. And after biting into it, while still chewing, she holds it outstretched in her hand to a stunned Ish who watches her as she finishes chewing it and swallows. And upon hearing her say, "Here, take it!" He sees there is no turning back and decides to join his fate to hers, for not wanting to live apart from her and taking it from her hand, he too, bites, chews and swallows.

And the rest is history: The nachcash was cursed to become the snake, even the snake as we know it today, with a future fulfillment of the prophesy/curse pronounced over it yet to be fully realized for its extreme wickedness;  and we… we were cursed for our benefit.

The world Jehovah intended for us to know was disrupted by disobedience and the history that would have been, now becomes a history of redemption and restoration because God loved this world that He created so very much that He sent His only unique Son, the only other One of His Kind, to be born Human, of a virgin woman, so that He would know what it was like to be a Human and thus, being made sympathetic toward us, through His obedience to The Father, despite suffering horribly for it as He accomplished the forgiveness of the Sins of the world, He proceeded to redeem us all, every single one of us, one by one, for His making it possible to be that, whosoever should be believing on His Name, which Name The Father is making the Name above all Names for His willingness to permanently leave His position as co-regent with The Father and become, forever, a Glorified Human Being, would not perish because of Sin but would, instead, inherit that promised aionian life intended for me to know as a virtuous and good human being, exactly as Jehovah intended for me to be, from the very beginning, even as that is what I am now re-sired by Jehovah to become through my faith, repentance and baptism into His unique Son Who's spirit has come and made His home inside me, where this Son of Man said that the Kingdom of God is.

~

Doc, I've gone back and re-read what I've just written and truly it sounds fantastic. Yet this is where my thoughts lead me, logically, for the things I have learned.

I can't describe the effect this has had on me.

However, know that  I have no problem putting my faith in the fantastic things I can conclude from Truth: It's the contradictory and ugly things I can conclude from wrong thoughts, like the one that teaches us that Jehovah knew, as a fact, that the Adam was going to turn before He created them, that I can't put my faith in. Just like Ishsha had a wrong thought about The Words of God and it was used against her.

I began my understanding by believing that there existed a truthful and therefore singular understanding of The Words that, when grasped, would explain what has been revealed for us to know in a good and beautiful way.

Now I'm not saying, at this point, that I've got a full grasp of Genesis 1-3; for God knows how many times I've changed Creation Hymn over the years from when I first started writing it; but I will say this: For the first time since I began this journey of discovery, I have an answer to all of the questions I once had.

And right now, I can't seem to think of any more to ask.

Doc these thoughts are nascent and so likely you'll be able to poke a few holes in them from your understanding; and I will say that would be a welcome thing, that I may test it for truth and adjust these thoughts accordingly.

And I will add that I didn't find anything in what Michael wrote that disproved my original assertions concerning the two words Strongs # 5172 and Strongs # 5175 that I discovered when I first gave you answer to your inquiry about the serpent.

However, know that  I will be referring to this being as the nachcash in my future writings rather than as 'the serpent' because that is a lot less misleading, given the literal curse on this real-time, brightly shining, upright-walking, wise and crafty, conscience-bearing nachcash that was literally turned from a son of God into a snake for its wickedness.
It's no wonder to me that we hate snakes so much.

Again I thank you for introducing this. Like I said, you are a gift from God.

Be good, Doc!

It is what you were created to be, after all.

And blessings as well!

Dennis!
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 08:51:30 PM by Eleutheros »

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #159 on: October 22, 2009, 12:22:22 AM »
Dennis!

As it happens, I do have a few comments to make about your response; but sadly, I will not have time to get to it until probably next week. I have continuing education to slog through all day Thursday through Sunday. You have made some interesting comments, and your understanding is somewhat different than I understood it to be initially.
Until then!
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #160 on: October 22, 2009, 02:39:32 AM »
Hi Dennis,

Hi, CHB!

Quote
Hope you don't mind if I call you dennis?

No, not at all! In fact you can call me any name you want!  :laughing7:

Quote from: CHB
Quote from: Eleutheros
Then He and I together can start to accomplish what once was impossible for me to do on my own, namely to start being righteous through my being obedient to His spirit's promptings.

That word TOGETHER, is where I find a problem with your quote. The way it is written, you make it sound as if Christ needs your help to accomplish your righteousness or sinlessness.


I understand. I think I can clarify by pointing out that only Jesus and Jesus only was sinless. I have never nor will I ever be able to say the same for as long as I dwell on this earth.
However, there is a thing called 'repentance' which is what I am expected to do when I encounter the Truth in Jesus. Repentance means, 'to flip around', to 'do a 180', or an 'about face' and thus start heading in the opposite direction. And the opposite direction from doing sin is to do righteousness.

However, because you are equating righteousness with sinlessness, I can see why you would have a problem with what I wrote.

Quote from: CHB
I keep thinking about this verse (Phil. 2:13) For it is GOD which WORKETH IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE".  You see I don't think it is you doing anything but God working in you. God is accomplishing his good pleasure, not yours.

Again I understand where you are coming from; like I said I was raised believing as you do.

Here is the entire sentence of which vs. 13 is the latter half:

"So that, my beloved, according as you always obey (obey… what?), not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, (you) be carrying your own salvation into effect, for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight."

I see from this whole thought then that my part is to be obedient and do whatever the God Who is operating in me both to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight and that with a sense of fear and trembling about me (for incurring His displeasure) as *I*, Dennis, carry my own salvation into effect  through my obedience, which is to say through my doing what He tells me to do!

Quote from: CHB
Most of the scriptures you posted are New Covenant teaching, and was written to the Israelites, I don't think we are under any Covenant. We don't have any laws to perform, Christ did it all.

Here is the way I see it.  Jesus sent his disciples to preach to the Jew's. (Matt. 10:5-6)  {Verse 5} Go not into the way of the Gentiles.  When Paul first started preaching he too went to the Jew's but later to the Gentiles. The New Covenant was directed toward the Israelites but not the Gentiles, we have the Mystery that Paul talked about which was a better revelation than the New Covenant. The Mystery that was given to Paul showed that we don't need to be attached to Israel, we are of the family of God, not Israel. We don't have to keep days, or be baptised or any of those things that the Jew's do. It is not by any thing that we do now but all of Jesus Christ. End of answers to part one.

What answer, then, do you give to these scriptures that seem to contradict your understanding?

"Now if some of the boughs are broken out, yet you, CHB, being a wild olive, are grafted among them, and became a joint participant of the root and fatness of the olive, be not vaunting over the boughs. Yet if you are vaunting, you are not bearing the root, but the root you.
You will be declaring, then, "Boughs are broken out that I, CHB, may be grafted in."
Ideally! By unbelief are they broken out, yet you, CHB, stand in faith. Be not haughty, but fear.
For if God spares not the natural boughs, neither will He be sparing you, CHB!
Perceive, then, the kindness and severity of God! On those, indeed, who are falling, severity, yet on you, CHB, God's kindness, if you should be persisting in the kindness: else you, CHB, also will be hewn out."  Rom 11:17-22

"For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.
Wherefore, remember that once you (CHB), the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -- that you, (CHB), were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.
Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, CHB, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ.
For He is our (mine and CHB's) Peace, Who makes (both Jew and Gentile) one, and razes the central wall of the barrier (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace; and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it."  Eph 2:10-16

"Thus we (Believers) also, when we were minors, were enslaved under the elements of the world.
Now when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that He should be reclaiming those under law, that we (Believers) may be getting the place of a son.
Now, seeing that you are sons (and daughters), God delegates the spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying "Abba! Father!" So that you are no longer a slave, but a son. Now if a son, an enjoyer also of an allotment from God, through Christ.
But then (before you, CHB, were, 'grafted into Israel'), indeed, having no perception of God, you, (CHB) were slaves of those who, by nature, are not gods.
Yet now, knowing God, yet rather being known by God, how are you turning back again to the infirm and poor elements for which you want to slave again anew? Days are you scrutinizing, and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, lest somehow I have toiled for you feignedly." Gal 4:3-11


Quote from: CHB
Quote from: Eleutheros

After reading what I wrote above do you still think John 1, 2 & 3 don't apply to you?

I think the whole Bible is for our learning and admonition but most of it was written to and for Israel.

OK. So what few remaining parts do specifically apply to you and not to Israel? And how do you determine which parts do?

Quote from: CHB
Quote from: Eleutheros
CHB, I did a NT word search with 'right hand' and 'are in Christ' and could not find a quote that said this. Could you help me to know where you got this from?

(Eph. 1:20) Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and SET HIM AT HIS OWN RIGHT HAND IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES.

"Therefore, I also, on hearing of this faith of yours in the Lord Jesus, and that for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention in my prayers that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may be giving you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him, the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints, and what the transcendent greatness of His power for us who are believing, in accord with the operation of the might of His strength, which is operative in the Christ, rousing Him from among the dead and seating Him at His right hand among the celestials, up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending: and subjects all under His feet, and gives Him, as Head over all, to the ecclesia which is His body, the complement of the One completing the all in all." Eph 1: 15-22- The whole sentence.

I see from this that our allotment is to be among the saints that are set apart for Him and that Jesus and Jesus only, is seated, by The Father at His right hand which is to be His place among the celestials (the sons of God), not ours.

I do not read that we are seated at The Father's right hand with Him.

Quote
(Col. 2:12-13) We are buried with him in baptism, {his baptism} wherein also YE ARE RISEN WITH HIM through the faith of the OPERATION OF GOD.  (Verse 13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, HATH HE QUICKENED TOGETHER WITH HIM.

"And you are complete in Him, Who is the Head of every sovereignty and authority, in Whom you were circumcised also with a circumcision not made by hands, in the stripping off of the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ. Being entombed together with Him in (your Gal 3:27) baptism, in Whom you were roused together also through faith in the operation of God, Who rouses Him from among the dead, you also being dead to the offenses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He vivifies us together jointly with Him, dealing graciously with all our offenses, erasing the handwriting of the decrees against us, which was hostile to us, and has taken it away out of the midst, nailing it to the cross, stripping off the sovereignties and authorities, with boldness He makes a show of them, triumphing over them in it." Col 2:10-15 Two sentences and the whole thought.

I see that we are complete in Him through a 'circumcision' that is not physical and that we are identified with His burial and resurrection through our baptism. I see that The Father makes us alive, then, jointly with Him. And so He can deal graciously with all of our offences for us having been made dead with Him and also alive with Him so that the sovereignties and authorities lawful decrees over us are stripped off of us and made show of in triumph!

But I don't see that we are seated at The right hand of The Father with Him, a place He and He alone has earned for what He did to make us alive again unto God, even as Paul is declaring it here.

Quote
(Col . 3:1) If ye then BE RISIN WITH CHRIST, seek those things which are above, WHERE CHRIST SITTETH ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

"If, then, you were roused together with Christ, be seeking that which is above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God." Col 3:1 See! Paul can write a short sentence!  :laughing7:

OK. I still don't see where we have been made to be seated at the right hand of God, with Jesus. Only that if we are risen with Christ then we are to be seeking the things of heaven, where Jesus is Who has been seated at the right hand of God, by God the Father-- not the position of being seated at the right hand of the Father! God forbid!

Quote from: CHB
(Col. 3:3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ. 

If we are dead and our life is hid in Christ then we have no more works to perform, Christ does them all. If we are in Christ and Christ is sitting on the right hand of the Father, wouldn't we be there also if we are in Christ?

No.

CHB I don't think you grasp what is being said here, nor what Jesus went through to be given this position by the Father. This is a powerful position of rule and authority, far and farther above any 'rule or authority' that we will be given to us for being under Him.
He is 'accountable' only to the Father. Every single human and every other of the son's of God will be under Him. This position at the right hand of The Father is not our place as a redeemed human, even though we, the firstfruits, will belong to Him.

Let me illustrate what I am saying:

Suppose you were married to a prince, a son of the King. And one day the King declares that your husband was to become His co-regent and rule with all His power and authority, being accountable only to the King.
And to show this, for all the court to see, the King caused Him to be seated at His right hand.
What do you think would happen to you if you dared to try and say that you, too, were 'seated at the King's right hand with His Son' just because you were married to him?

Exactly.

This issue was addressed once before:

"Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Him with her sons, worshiping and requesting something from Him.
Now He said to her, "What are you wanting?" She is saying to Him, "Say that these, my two sons, should be seated, one at Thy right and one at Thy left, in Thy kingdom."
Now answering, Jesus said, "You are not aware what you are requesting. Are you able to be drinking the cup which I am about to be drinking?" They are saying to Him, "We are able."
He is saying to them, "My cup, indeed, you shall be drinking. Yet to be seated at My right and at My left is not Mine to give, but is for whom it has been made ready by My Father." Matt 20:20-23.

Just like the seat of power on the Divine Council, at the right hand of God, is for God to give to Whom He chooses, so are the right and left hand seats next to Jesus set aside by The Father, for Whom the Father chooses. And just like He chose Jesus to receive it after He accomplished the forgiveness of our Sins; which is something you did not do so these positions on Jesus' right and left are for those who have accomplished much and suffered much while being obedient to The Father.


Quote from: CHB
(Matt. 5:48) You quoted this verse to prove that we must be perfect now but read (Col. 1:28) Paul said that we may present EVERY MAN PERFECT IN JESUS CHRIST. Notice, it says we are perfect IN Jesus Christ. If every man is in Jesus Christ then we are all perfect spiritually. As long as we are in these bodies we are sinful flesh and the flesh cannot please God, but Christ did. When the Father looks at me he only sees his Son not my sin.

"I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for you, and am filling up in my flesh, in His stead, the deficiencies of the afflictions of Christ, for His body, which is the ecclesia of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God-- the secret which has been concealed from the eons and from the generations, yet now was made manifest to His saints, to whom God wills to make known what are the glorious riches of this secret among the nations, which is: Christ among you, the expectation of glory -- Whom we are announcing, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we should be presenting every man mature in Christ Jesus; for which I am toiling also, struggling in accord with His operation, which is operating in me with power." Col 1:24-29

Who does Paul say is doing the presenting here of every man mature in Christ Jesus?

And how does a human become mature in Christ Jesus?

This is what I said of Matt 5:48:

Quote from: Dennis
CHB, I would ask you, now, to ponder this: To His disciples, during His 'Sermon on the Mount' Jesus said this "You then shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 5:48 (The verb tense is in the present, tense, not the future;  "You shall be" not "You shall be made").

Why would He command them, with a command of expectation, for that is what this is, if He couldn't reasonably expect them to do it, that is be perfect?
 
What do you think Jesus meant by perfect?

Before I give you a reply to this that you stated could you answer my question first so that I may know what you think Jesus was really saying here?  :wink:


Quote from: CHB
Quote from: Eleutheros
OK. So, you're on the tail end of it all, unless your Jewish, then, of course, your positioned closer to the butt.
 

Yea, that's me, I always get the tail end of everything.  :laughing7: :laughing7:

:shakepoint: Much better though is that we Believers are all a part of His functioning body with Him as 'the Brain' or 'the Head'.   :icon_king:

Quote from: CHB
What is wrong with this blame quoteing situation? The words in the quote box keep jumping up every time I try to type, it is so annoying. Are you having this problem as well? I will have to finish this later, it is getting on my nerves trying to type and you can't see what you are typing.   :btantrum: The smilies are screwed up as well.  :sigh:

CHB

Well, it got through! And here is my reply. Sorry it took so long…

I appreciate you CHB.

I've tasted your heart and it is good.

So, believe better things of your God than what the Presence folk are telling you. And if you're not getting these things from them, then the thought is still the same because I believe that you can, indeed,

Be good!

Just like you were created to be!

(And so does your God!)

Dennis!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 05:34:42 PM by Eleutheros »

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #161 on: October 22, 2009, 03:03:32 AM »

Hi Dennis,

Why don't you stick around and join us in some of the other discussions? You might have something else to contribute other than what we have been discussing.

CHB


 
 I would like to hear more   from you too Dennis  and all
 :icon_flower:

  Inlove rose  :HeartThrob:

Thank you, both of you for these heart-felt words. You honour me with your gracious invitations.

However, posting replies takes a lot of time and energy from me that I cannot maintain without sacrificing other things I need to do, like sleep.

Right now in my life I have some time, from my God, to do this but all things change with time, even as they are.

However to honour your gracious invitations I will say that if there is something on Tentmaker that you would really like to hear 'my take' on, PM me with a link and I will consider a reply, no promises though. OK?

Know that you, rosered and you, CHB, have my utmost respect and my heartfelt appreciation for the things you've contributed to this thread.

Blessings to you,

Dennis!

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #162 on: October 22, 2009, 03:09:20 AM »
Dennis!

As it happens, I do have a few comments to make about your response; but sadly, I will not have time to get to it until probably next week. I have continuing education to slog through all day Thursday through Sunday. You have made some interesting comments, and your understanding is somewhat different than I understood it to be initially. Until then!

Hey, Doc!

OK. I'm not quite sure I know what you mean by that but I'm certinaly willing to wait for your reply, when you have the time to make it.

Until then,

Be good!

And get good grades, 'cause the future's so bright you gotta wear shades!

Dennis!

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #163 on: October 22, 2009, 08:01:45 PM »
Hi Dennis,

Here is an article that explains what I was referring to about the New Covenant and the Mystery.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920501.htm


Who are the Presence folks as you referred to? I have never heard of them.

Quote from: Eleutheros
CHB, I would ask you, now, to ponder this: To His disciples, during His 'Sermon on the Mount' Jesus said this "You then shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 5:48 (The verb tense is in the present, tense, not the future;  "You shall be" not "You shall be made").

Why would He command them, with a command of expectation, for that is what this is, if He couldn't reasonably expect them to do it, that is be perfect?
 
What do you think Jesus meant by perfect?

We are perfect IN CHRIST.


You said sitting on the right hand of the Father was only for Christ but Don't we inherit what Christ inherits?  (Rom. 8:17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, AND JOINT-HEIRS WITH CHRIST.

CHB

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #164 on: October 23, 2009, 12:43:24 AM »
Hey, Doc!

As promised, here is my reply to the serpent thingy.



First I want to thank you for introducing this subject. It has been a real blessing to my understanding to have read the writings of Michael S. Heiser; especially his literal views on The Divine Council, Psalm 82, John 10:22-33, Deut 32:8-9 and Psalm 8.

If any reading this have not read the writings of this man you should Google his name and do so.

So, let me begin by saying that I did not come to this discussion believing that the nachash was  'a snake' in the sense that we speak of a snake today, post-cursed.

You once mentioned the 'cartoonish literal understanding' of a snake most Christians hold to and to which I added that I did not imagine the nachcash as a Sunday School flannel-graph snake dangling from a tree branch while tempting Eve to eat.

I've always worked the curse backward, from a literal understanding, so that what little I could imagine of the nachcash, just from the account itself, was that it was a slender, upright being that walked and talked and that this was not something out of the ordinary to The Adam. And this ability to walk and talk was for some reason other than what could be discerned from the account itself. Then there was the fact that the scriptures teach that somehow, in some way I did not comprehend, this being was, of truth, The Satan, but also not The Satan.

And given the textual support I gave in my original post these are very logical things to conclude.

So, the question to my mind has always been how this intelligent being called the nachcash came to be in the garden; for I recognized that it's presence was necessary to bring about the time of testing, given my understanding of the purpose for which we were created.

So we're more on the same page so far...

Quote
(Specifically we were created to be virtuous, as Jehovah is virtuous, that is, to have a conscience and a desire to consistently choose what is right and good to do from that powerful conscience gained through the independently virtuous, singular choice of choosing, first, to trust Jehovah's intentions for them, given a temptation not to.)

I think you're still reading this into the text, and we've already discussed the problems with this arrangement.


Quote
, so after reading and understanding Michael's logic I find myself in agreement with his contention that there were beings called 'the sons of God' that were not angels nor where they humans. And that this being, the nachcash, was once one of them and that he had a bright, shiny, serpentine appearance.

Therefore it's presence in the fantastic but now lost world of Eden, as a subtle (wise and/or crafty) creature with the ability to communicate with this truly strange and new kind of created being (strange from the nachcash's point of view) that were actually two independent sexual beings, existing as One through their sexuality and called, together, The Adam, was not something 'unusual' for that world.

I came to realize, through Michael's writings, that the key to understanding this creatures motives in allowing itself to be entered by Satan, for that is what happened, was that he saw in this weird, dual-creature called The Adam- a creature weaker than the nachcash was for them being created a little lower than itself, yet surrounded by Jehovah with a glory- was to be given the honour to rule over all of this re-created earth and everything on it, maybe even including the nachcash itself.

So jealousy and envy was its motive.

As well as possibly being desirous of Ishsha for her incredible physical beauty-remember the Nephilim.

Another thing that assisted my understanding was the important role The Adversary fills in the Divine Council- that of an accuser. This particular article was very helpful for uncovering some truly fantastic truths.

Therefore, I perceive that it was known before, by Jehovah, that The Satan would attempt to 'bring down' this new kind of creation that He, Jehovah, delighted in and had put His own faith in for believing it possible for them to resist the temptation to distrust Him and gain virtue before they were given a conscience, unlike the sons of God who were created with a conscience already in place with the result that many turned against God.

For it became apparent to me, as Michael explained Psalm 82 and Deut 32, that these created sons of God all had a conscience; that is, they were given to know the difference between good and evil at their creation. And for this, despite the fact that Jehovah expected them to be righteous, they, all too often, choose not to be righteous but pursued wickedness. Hence, because of the wickedness of these created sons of God, which were numerous both in number and in number of sins, the initial creation of this heavens and its then earth was overturned by Jehovah with a flood of water and plunged into deep darkness.

Of course, after this, Jehovah asked Himself the question I always imagined He asked as we are told He brooded over that ancient, wasted and emptied sphere, "How can We create beings who will know the difference between good and evil and yet choose consistently to do good?

Answer: Let's create them to resemble Us!

As if God didn't already know how to create such beings.

Quote
We'll make this New One as two sexual beings, Male and Female, by splitting the essence of Ourselves between them so that, through their sexuality, they will exist of like kind, independent of each other, but, in Unity, even as We are. In this way they will come to know all of the Loves, as We know them, experientially! And by giving them the ability to share in Our own ability to create sentient beings through this unifying sexuality, all of the Loves will be passed on to generations of them!

But, before We enable them to reproduce, We will give them a chance, this time, to gain virtue first, before they are granted a conscience...

And it almost worked.

Oops; there we go making God a sinner again. It almost worked, but he missed the mark...

Quote
This is how I see it:

One day, a long time after they were created, The Adam were walking near The Tree of Conscience, perhaps to eat a fruit from The Tree of Life for feeling the need to and were contemplating the Tree of Conscience for being so near to it.

Now by this time the exact words of Jehovah that Ish told to Ishsha about the Tree of Conscience had been transformed, at least in her thoughts, to become a belief that if she even so much as touched it's fruit she would actually, physically die- something she likely did not know of experientially, yet, by witnessing death, but knew it meant, 'to cease to exist.'

Now, while they're standing next to the tree, along comes the nachcash, possessed of The Satan through the nacahsh's jealousy.

Previously The Adam had seen the meetings of the sons of God in the Garden but they didn't have a lot to do with these other created beings because, mostly, these other created beings had nothing to do with Ish and Ishsha- even while they admired Ishsha's physical beauty.

But, The Adam were innocent and didn't even know that they were. What they did know, though, was that they both knew they loved each other deeply and preferred each other rather than the company of these rather daunting 'sons of God.'

When the nachcash approaches them it gives no introduction but simply addresses it's words to the beautiful, desirable Ishsha and asks her a question that, to them, must have been a strange question, indeed, coming from one of these sons of God:

"Is it true that God has said you cannot eat the fruit of any of the trees in the Garden?"

The question is asked to feign ignorance; something that can only be accomplished successfully if Ish and Ishsha had every reason to believe that this other created being might have heard something from God differently than they did and was coming to them to ask for clarification.

And so, thinking she was correcting the nachcash's error in understanding, she answers, "No, that's not true. God said we may eat freely from all the trees in the garden except the one in the middle. He told us not to eat from that tree or to even touch it because if we do, we will die."

At this point I imagine that Ish must have been a little taken aback by these words for He knew that was not what Jehovah said.

However, The Satan, elated to hear these words and recognizing the thought behind them, moved quickly to entrap her before Ish can recover and respond, given his hesitancy for this authoritative being's presence and for not understanding, yet, why these wrong words were spoken by Ishsha, The Satan seizes the opportunity by stating the truth to her in much the same way journalists lie to us when they tell us the truth.

It said, with all the authority of one who was superior to them, "Trust me. You will not die as you say because the truth is that God knows that when you eat this fruit you will become wise like God is for knowing of the difference between good and evil."
 
And so, prompted to believe the lie that sounds just like truth, for her own wrong thinking about what Jehovah actually said, she considered the goodness that could be hers, goodness she now believes God was keeping them from and -- she quickly plucks a fruit. And after biting into it, while still chewing, she holds it outstretched in her hand to a stunned Ish who watches her as she finishes chewing it and swallows. And upon hearing her say, "Here, take it!" He sees there is no turning back and decides to join his fate to hers, for not wanting to live apart from her and taking it from her hand, he too, bites, chews and swallows.

Not a bad conceptualization. It's a different form with more detail than something I've heard before (as to Adam's  reaction) but still; quite good.

Quote
And the rest is history: The nachcash was cursed to become the snake, even the snake as we know it today, with a future fulfillment of the prophesy/curse pronounced over it yet to be fully realized for its extreme wickedness;  and we… we were cursed for our benefit.

Now here's where Dr. Heiser would disagree with you. In the paper, he makes it plain that He does not believe that the nachash was cursed to become a literal snake, that the terms of the curse were metaphorical, which was something I attempted to bring out awhile back. The terms of the curse of the "serpent" are not literal, but they are real spiritual things.

Quote
The world Jehovah intended for us to know was disrupted by disobedience and the history that would have been, now becomes a history of redemption and restoration because God loved this world that He created so very much that He sent His only unique Son, the only other One of His Kind, to be born Human, of a virgin woman, so that He would know what it was like to be a Human and thus, being made sympathetic toward us, through His obedience to The Father, despite suffering horribly for it as He accomplished the forgiveness of the Sins of the world, He proceeded to redeem us all, every single one of us, one by one, for His making it possible to be that, whosoever should be believing on His Name, which Name The Father is making the Name above all Names for His willingness to permanently leave His position as co-regent with The Father and become, forever, a Glorified Human Being, would not perish because of Sin but would, instead, inherit that promised aionian life intended for me to know as a virtuous and good human being, exactly as Jehovah intended for me to be, from the very beginning, even as that is what I am now re-sired by Jehovah to become through my faith, repentance and baptism into His unique Son Who's spirit has come and made His home inside me, where this Son of Man said that the Kingdom of God is.

Quote
~

Doc, I've gone back and re-read what I've just written and truly it sounds fantastic. Yet this is where my thoughts lead me, logically, for the things I have learned.


I can't describe the effect this has had on me.

However, know that  I have no problem putting my faith in the fantastic things I can conclude from Truth: It's the contradictory and ugly things I can conclude from wrong thoughts, like the one that teaches us that Jehovah knew, as a fact, that the Adam was going to turn before He created them, that I can't put my faith in. Just like Ishsha had a wrong thought about The Words of God and it was used against her.

I began my understanding by believing that there existed a truthful and therefore singular understanding of The Words that, when grasped, would explain what has been revealed for us to know in a good and beautiful way.

Now I'm not saying, at this point, that I've got a full grasp of Genesis 1-3; for God knows how many times I've changed Creation Hymn over the years from when I first started writing it; but I will say this: For the first time since I began this journey of discovery, I have an answer to all of the questions I once had.

And right now, I can't seem to think of any more to ask.

Doc these thoughts are nascent and so likely you'll be able to poke a few holes in them from your understanding; and I will say that would be a welcome thing, that I may test it for truth and adjust these thoughts accordingly.

And I will add that I didn't find anything in what Michael wrote that disproved my original assertions concerning the two words Strongs # 5172 and Strongs # 5175 that I discovered when I first gave you answer to your inquiry about the serpent.

However, know that  I will be referring to this being as the nachcash in my future writings rather than as 'the serpent' because that is a lot less misleading, given the literal curse on this real-time, brightly shining, upright-walking, wise and crafty, conscience-bearing nachcash that was literally turned from a son of God into a snake for its wickedness.
It's no wonder to me that we hate snakes so much.

Again I thank you for introducing this. Like I said, you are a gift from God.

Be good, Doc!

It is what you were created to be, after all.

And blessings as well!

Dennis!

Always glad to help clarify things, even if the conclusions from them are different.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #165 on: October 23, 2009, 09:47:01 PM »
Hi Dennis,

Hi CHB!

Quote from:  CHB
Here is an article that explains what I was referring to about the New Covenant and the Mystery.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920501.htm

Thank you for that link. I read the article through and understood it.
And while I find there is somewhat I can agree with, what I don't agree with would be found in the difference between conclusions drawn for translating katabole with 'disruption' rather than 'foundation'.

And while the author's logic is sound for believing that 'foundation' is the correct word choice for katabole, the difference I perceive is significant enough that I cannot agree that the author is presenting the entire truth, at least from my understanding for my believing katabole means 'disruption'.

Of course, I'm sure that the author, for his believing with all his heart that he is reading an accurate translation of The Words, isn't aware of the different road his logic would take if he were to believe that katabole means 'disruption' in these passages.
 
To illustrate, here is Eph 1: 3-11, an entire thought, from the KJV, which the author uses:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who (The Father) hath blessed us (Believers) with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us (Believers) in him (Christ)  before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him (The Father) in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his (The Father's) will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us (Believers) accepted in the beloved.
In whom we (Believers) have redemption through his (Christ's) blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his (The Father's) grace; wherein he (The Father) hath abounded toward us (Believers) in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us (Believers) the mystery of his (The Father's) will, according to his (The Father's )good pleasure which he (The Father) hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fullness of times he (The Father) might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him (Christ) : in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him (The Father) who worketh all things after the counsel of his (The Father's) own will: that we should be to the praise of his (The Father's) glory, who first trusted in Christ.

In the KJV I am led to perceive that all that Paul is about to say was God's only plan, ever, from before the foundation of the world was laid. And that we Believer's were, likewise, pre-chosen to be Believers, in Christ, again, before the foundation of the earth was laid.

Note the verb tense that I emphasized here with italics.

So, it is logical then to assume that if we Beleiver's were pre-chosen to become Believers, before He laid the foundation of the earth that must mean, by default, that He chose some not to be Believers from before He laid the foundation of the earth. Rather, then, He chose them to suffer the aionian fire they will have to endure in order to be restored to Him.

Logically speaking, this is the truth. And if it is indeed, the truth then we still have Calvin's double pre-destination to put our faith in, except without an eternal hell, just an age-lasting one, till these ones He pre-chose to suffer like this will repent and willingly bow their knee in worship and confess with joy that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of The Father.
 
Of course the logical question to ask then is: If this 'all-powerful' God, Who, by our definition of 'all powerful' can do anything we can imagine Him to be able to do (doesn't that sound presumptuous!), can pre-choose some humans to become Believer's before the foundation of the world was laid, then why didn't He choose all of us humans to become Believers, without any of us humans having to undergo the purging of aionian fire that His only unique Son said was prepared for The Satan and his angels, not for us?

So, once more, even though all these humans will eventually be restored, they are being restored to a capricious and megalomaniacal God. For He is the same One Who pre-chose some of us, for some unknown reason, to be restored to Himself without us having to go through that purging fire His unique Son said was originally created for The Satan and his angels, but not for us.

Doesn't that just sound so ugly when I say it like that?

And now here is the same quote in the CLV with the same verb tense likewise emphasized:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us (Believers) with every spiritual blessing among the celestials (the sons of God), in Christ, according as He (The Father) chooses us (Believers) in Him (Christ) before the disruption of the world, we (Believers) to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us (Believers) beforehand for the place of a son for Him (The Father) through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His (The Fathers)  will, for the laud of the glory of His (The Father's) grace, which graces us (Believers) in the Beloved:  in Whom we (Believers) are having the deliverance through His (Christ's) blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His (the Father's) grace, which He (The Father) lavishes on us (Believers) ; in all wisdom and prudence making known to us (Believers) the secret of His will (in accord with His [The Father's] delight, which He [The Father]  purposed in Him [Christ]) to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ -- both that in the heavens and that on the earth -- in Him (Christ)  in Whom our (the Believers) lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One (Jehovah)Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His (The Father's) will, that we (Believers) should be for the laud of His (The Father's) glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.

I see a significant difference in the impact of these two for that one single word.

When I read it in the CLV, keeping in my mind these two things: the first being that God was not 'taken by surprise' for their turning, even while He fully expected them to keep their trust in Him and refuse the temptation:  and the second being that He originally intended for us to be this earth's rulers or sovereigns, which is something that we now are not; I perceive that it became God's plan, because of the disruption of the world that he will now be choosing us, who first believe in Christ, through Jesus's sacrifice and the Fathers prognosis to be holy and flawless in His (The Father's) sight; which was His original purpose for us before the disruption of the world came and we humans headed in a different direction, away from The Father's intended purpose for us- which now requires us to be restored to Him, one way or another, one-by-one, through the same Jesus who created us, in order to accomplish His intention for us to be son's of God among the Celesatials, had Our Parent's kept their trust in Him.


~

In quantum physics there is a concept known as the wave function whereby a wave of energy goes out and seeks a particle to join with. And once the 'connection' is made to the nearest and most available complementary particle the wave collapses on itself and the two particles connect and a transfer of energy is then retroactively made in the form of a particle. This is really weird.

For this would be something like your car sending out 'feelers' from your driveway that finds the shortest way between where you are and where you want to be and once the two points are established, your car's 'feelers', 'quit feeling', and you are instantaneously transported from your driveway to where you want to be. I told you it was weird.

The implication then is that, until the connection is made, every point from your driveway is accessible and every reality for you and your car is therefore possible. But, once the connection is made that reality become fixed and you are at your destination.

Now, for understandings sake only, by way of illustrating, only somewhat, how I perceive this enigmatic passage in Ephesians, I will say that Our Parents were on the brink of 'two' possible realities, depending on what they did after Jehovah's command. But, once the choice was made, in this case, against Jehovah, the once 'only possible' reality that Paul described in this quote became reality and the other reality that we could have known became impossible for this current reality being 'chosen' in distrust and disobedience.
 
You see, it was creating our Parents without a conscience already in them, unlike He did previously, with the sons of God, that made these 'two' then parallel realities equally possible- both realities, however, will ultimately result in the same purpose being accomplished.
 
So do you see, if this illustration helps, that God always had a plan in mind, one way or another, for us to become son's of God, different from the other son's of God for us knowing, experientially, all the Loves as He does, which, apparently, these Loves are not something that is well known to the others of the son's of God.

The idea is that one way or another God determined that He was going to be All and in All that he created; and we are, one way or another, going to be willingly found to be exactly as He intended for us to be from the beginning, like Him, knowing of the difference between good and evil and choosing always to be good, exactly as He originally created us to be.


Quote from:  CHB
Who are the Presence folks as you referred to? I have never heard of them.

They are folk who say what they believe, CHB, in almost exactly the same way you say what you believe. Here is a link to their website; I think you will find a kinship with them.

Quote from:  CHB
Quote from: Eleutheros
CHB, I would ask you, now, to ponder this: To His disciples, during His 'Sermon on the Mount' Jesus said this "You then shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 5:48 (The verb tense is in the present, tense, not the future;  "You shall be" not "You shall be made").

Why would He command them, with a command of expectation, for that is what this is, if He couldn't reasonably expect them to do it, that is be perfect?
 
What do you think Jesus meant by perfect?

We are perfect IN CHRIST.

Yes, I agree, but what I perceive in my thoughts, when I hear those words, is not what you perceive in yours.

So, if you still care to understand what I am saying I would point out here that the Greek word translated 'perfect' was given in the link I provided in my prior post; and from that I would ask, "Did you study that word?"

If you did, then can you state, in your own words, what you perceive that word means in the Greek?

I will assist by pointing out that The CLV translates it with 'perfect' and 'mature'.

So what idea is Jesus trying to convey here by choosing this Greek word over, say akribus,  or kataritizo, or even teleioo?


Quote from:  CHB
You said sitting on the right hand of the Father was only for Christ but Don't we inherit what Christ inherits?  (Rom. 8:17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, AND JOINT-HEIRS WITH CHRIST.

CHB

Not exactly, no.

"Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you. Now if anyone has not Christ's spirit, this one is not His.
Now if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is life because of righteousness.
Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you.
Consequently, then, brethren, debtors are we, not to the flesh, to be living in accord with flesh, for if you are living in accord with flesh, you are about to be dying. Yet if, in spirit, you are putting the practices of the body to death, you will be living.
For whoever are being led by God's spirit, these are sons of God.
For you did not get slavery's spirit to fear again, but you got the spirit of sonship, in which we are crying, "Abba, Father!"
The spirit itself is testifying together with our spirit that we are children of God.
Yet if children, enjoyers also of an allotment, enjoyers, indeed, of an allotment from God, yet joint enjoyers of Christ's allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also.
For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us." Rom 8: 8-18

CHB, if you truly desire understanding you have got to quit, 'proof texting' me with these short 'sound bits'. This is exactly what journalists and 'news' casters do to make you believe what they want you to believe.

Context is everything. If you don't stop to grasp the context first, then The Words you quote will be able to say anything you want them to say and you have, in effect, made the Bible into a 'book of magic' that can transform anything you want to believe into 'the truth' by simply finding a 'string or words' to 'support' any logical conclusion you want to believe.

This then is what I read is the meaning behind this quote you lifted from its context.

If we are led by the spirit of God which is the spirit of life through righteousness, which righteousness spoken of here is nothing more than us doing right, then we are the sons of God and our enjoyment as children of God is in our allotment from God. And those also of us who are the firstfruits given to Jesus as the reward for His obedience to The Father, Who sent Him to accomplish the forgiveness of sins, is to enjoy His allotment from God as well, for our sufferings in this age and that for putting our faith in Him- sufferings similar to how Christ suffered on our behalf.

So, to continue my analogy from my prior post: You, CHB as a citizen of the kingdom will come to enjoy your allotment from the King of the benefits of His rule. But you, CHB, are also married to the Prince who has been named co-regent with the King. So, you not only get to enjoy the allotment from the King that is yours for simply being in His kingdom, but you also get to enjoy the extra allotment given to your husband by the King for His being seated at King's right hand, reigning as co-regent with the King!

However, this idea of suffering being a determing and proportional part in our allotment is not to be taken lightly. Suffering at the hands of the wicked in this age is expected; and endurance under persecution, for maintaining trust in Jehovah, will not be lightly rewarded.

Well, that's about as clear as I can make my understanding of this quote.

If you understand what I am saying and still don't agree with it then there is really nothing more I can say.

Except…

Be good!

Just as you were created to be!

Dennis!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 05:51:34 PM by Eleutheros »

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #166 on: October 23, 2009, 11:07:33 PM »
Hey, Doc!

As promised, here is my reply to the serpent thingy.

First I want to thank you for introducing this subject. It has been a real blessing to my understanding to have read the writings of Michael S. Heiser; especially his literal views on The Divine Council, Psalm 82, John 10:22-33, Deut 32:8-9 and Psalm 8.

If any reading this have not read the writings of this man you should Google his name and do so.

So, let me begin by saying that I did not come to this discussion believing that the nachash was  'a snake' in the sense that we speak of a snake today, post-cursed.

You once mentioned the 'cartoonish literal understanding' of a snake most Christians hold to and to which I added that I did not imagine the nachcash as a Sunday School flannel-graph snake dangling from a tree branch while tempting Eve to eat.

I've always worked the curse backward, from a literal understanding, so that what little I could imagine of the nachcash, just from the account itself, was that it was a slender, upright being that walked and talked and that this was not something out of the ordinary to The Adam. And this ability to walk and talk was for some reason other than what could be discerned from the account itself. Then there was the fact that the scriptures teach that somehow, in some way I did not comprehend, this being was, of truth, The Satan, but also not The Satan.

And given the textual support I gave in my original post these are very logical things to conclude.

So, the question to my mind has always been how this intelligent being called the nachcash came to be in the garden; for I recognized that it's presence was necessary to bring about the time of testing, given my understanding of the purpose for which we were created.

So we're more on the same page so far...

Does that mean I'm not a total loony?  :grin:

Quote from: Doc
Quote from: Dennis
(Specifically we were created to be virtuous, as Jehovah is virtuous, that is, to have a conscience and a desire to consistently choose what is right and good to do from that powerful conscience gained through the independently virtuous, singular choice of choosing, first, to trust Jehovah's intentions for them, given a temptation not to.)

I think you're still reading this into the text, and we've already discussed the problems with this arrangement.

Well the silence of Jehovah also gives an answer as well for my seeking an alternate answer to the question, "Why didn't He tell them why He didn't want them to eat from the Tree of Conscience?"

Your answer would be because He wanted them to be disobedient and fall exactly because He knew, as a fact, that they were going to anyway.

So, don't you see Doc, that this answer is also from reading something into the text? And just as I do you also claim to use the entire Bible to support your supposition with the only differences boiling down to which English word we choose for katabole and how we understand Jehovah gets His ability to know things before.


Quote from: Doc
Quote from: Dennis
, so after reading and understanding Michael's logic I find myself in agreement with his contention that there were beings called 'the sons of God' that were not angels nor where they humans. And that this being, the nachcash, was once one of them and that he had a bright, shiny, serpentine appearance.

Therefore it's presence in the fantastic but now lost world of Eden, as a subtle (wise and/or crafty) creature with the ability to communicate with this truly strange and new kind of created being (strange from the nachcash's point of view) that were actually two independent sexual beings, existing as One through their sexuality and called, together, The Adam, was not something 'unusual' for that world.

I came to realize, through Michael's writings, that the key to understanding this creatures motives in allowing itself to be entered by Satan, for that is what happened, was that he saw in this weird, dual-creature called The Adam- a creature weaker than the nachcash was for them being created a little lower than itself, yet surrounded by Jehovah with a glory- was to be given the honour to rule over all of this re-created earth and everything on it, maybe even including the nachcash itself.

So jealousy and envy was its motive.

As well as possibly being desirous of Ishsha for her incredible physical beauty-remember the Nephilim.

Another thing that assisted my understanding was the important role The Adversary fills in the Divine Council- that of an accuser. This particular article was very helpful for uncovering some truly fantastic truths.

Therefore, I perceive that it was known before, by Jehovah, that The Satan would attempt to 'bring down' this new kind of creation that He, Jehovah, delighted in and had put His own faith in for believing it possible for them to resist the temptation to distrust Him and gain virtue before they were given a conscience, unlike the sons of God who were created with a conscience already in place with the result that many turned against God.

For it became apparent to me, as Michael explained Psalm 82 and Deut 32, that these created sons of God all had a conscience; that is, they were given to know the difference between good and evil at their creation. And for this, despite the fact that Jehovah expected them to be righteous, they, all too often, choose not to be righteous but pursued wickedness. Hence, because of the wickedness of these created sons of God, which were numerous both in number and in number of sins, the initial creation of this heavens and its then earth was overturned by Jehovah with a flood of water and plunged into deep darkness.

Of course, after this, Jehovah asked Himself the question I always imagined He asked as we are told He brooded over that ancient, wasted and emptied sphere, "How can We create beings who will know the difference between good and evil and yet choose consistently to do good?

Answer: Let's create them to resemble Us!

As if God didn't already know how to create such beings.

And so one day Dennis asked himself, "How can I cause Doc to perceive what I perceive?"

Answer: "You can't, so don't even try. It would require a pardigm shift in his thinking, Dennis. And pardigm shifting is beyond your abilities." :icon_jokercolor:

Seriously, I was being rhetorical, Doc, not literal; for obviously God needs only Himself for inspiration and can answer His own 'questions'. 

Quote from: Doc
Quote from: Doc
We'll make this New One as two sexual beings, Male and Female, by splitting the essence of Ourselves between them so that, through their sexuality, they will exist of like kind, independent of each other, but, in Unity, even as We are. In this way they will come to know all of the Loves, as We know them, experientially! And by giving them the ability to share in Our own ability to create sentient beings through this unifying sexuality, all of the Loves will be passed on to generations of them!

But, before We enable them to reproduce, We will give them a chance, this time, to gain virtue first, before they are granted a conscience...

And it almost worked.

Oops; there we go making God a sinner again. It almost worked, but he missed the mark...

And my answer is the same as before: It is not 'a mistake' or 'falling short' or 'missing the mark' or 'sinning' when He couldn't know the definite outcome of an event that was unique and unduplicatable in our history.

It's a lot different thing to have handed any of your children the car keys at the door on the day one of them got into a horrible auto collision that you couldn't possibly have foreknown was going to happen, than when you hand one of your children the car keys the door saying "Be careful now!" on the day you foreknow, as a fact, that they are going to be in a horrible auto collision.

Did you read what I wrote to CHB on Ephesians?

The choice of which direction we would go to accomplish His intentions for us was given to our Parents because this was a necessary step in establishing them as virtuous and loving beings, just like He is.
So, He is now, with this reality that we caused to be through disobedience and lack of trust, ensuring that His intentions for us, despite our own disobedience, becomes reality because what He wants is good for ALL and that is because He is agape, or fondness and affection.


Quote from: Doc
Quote from: Dennis
This is how I see it:

One day, a long time after they were created, The Adam were walking near The Tree of Conscience, perhaps to eat a fruit from The Tree of Life for feeling the need to and were contemplating the Tree of Conscience for being so near to it.

Now by this time the exact words of Jehovah that Ish told to Ishsha about the Tree of Conscience had been transformed, at least in her thoughts, to become a belief that if she even so much as touched it's fruit she would actually, physically die- something she likely did not know of experientially, yet, by witnessing death, but knew it meant, 'to cease to exist.'

Now, while they're standing next to the tree, along comes the nachcash, possessed of The Satan through the nacahsh's jealousy.

Previously The Adam had seen the meetings of the sons of God in the Garden but they didn't have a lot to do with these other created beings because, mostly, these other created beings had nothing to do with Ish and Ishsha- even while they admired Ishsha's physical beauty.

But, The Adam were innocent and didn't even know that they were. What they did know, though, was that they both knew they loved each other deeply and preferred each other rather than the company of these rather daunting 'sons of God.'

When the nachcash approaches them it gives no introduction but simply addresses it's words to the beautiful, desirable Ishsha and asks her a question that, to them, must have been a strange question, indeed, coming from one of these sons of God:

"Is it true that God has said you cannot eat the fruit of any of the trees in the Garden?"

The question is asked to feign ignorance; something that can only be accomplished successfully if Ish and Ishsha had every reason to believe that this other created being might have heard something from God differently than they did and was coming to them to ask for clarification.

And so, thinking she was correcting the nachcash's error in understanding, she answers, "No, that's not true. God said we may eat freely from all the trees in the garden except the one in the middle. He told us not to eat from that tree or to even touch it because if we do, we will die."

At this point I imagine that Ish must have been a little taken aback by these words for He knew that was not what Jehovah said.

However, The Satan, elated to hear these words and recognizing the thought behind them, moved quickly to entrap her before Ish can recover and respond, given his hesitancy for this authoritative being's presence and for not understanding, yet, why these wrong words were spoken by Ishsha, The Satan seizes the opportunity by stating the truth to her in much the same way journalists lie to us when they tell us the truth.

It said, with all the authority of one who was superior to them, "Trust me. You will not die as you say because the truth is that God knows that when you eat this fruit you will become wise like God is for knowing of the difference between good and evil."
 
And so, prompted to believe the lie that sounds just like truth, for her own wrong thinking about what Jehovah actually said, she considered the goodness that could be hers, goodness she now believes God was keeping them from and -- she quickly plucks a fruit. And after biting into it, while still chewing, she holds it outstretched in her hand to a stunned Ish who watches her as she finishes chewing it and swallows. And upon hearing her say, "Here, take it!" He sees there is no turning back and decides to join his fate to hers, for not wanting to live apart from her and taking it from her hand, he too, bites, chews and swallows.

Not a bad conceptualization. It's a different form with more detail than something I've heard before (as to Adam's  reaction) but still; quite good.

Why thank you, Doc! Seriously this is high praise and I recognize it as such.

As to Adam's imagined reaction, that is just proof that I do use the whole witness of The Words to, 'unpack', the information in the Genesis account.

Quote from: Doc
Quote from: Dennis
And the rest is history: The nachcash was cursed to become the snake, even the snake as we know it today, with a future fulfillment of the prophesy/curse pronounced over it yet to be fully realized for its extreme wickedness;  and we… we were cursed for our benefit.

Now here's where Dr. Heiser would disagree with you. In the paper, he makes it plain that He does not believe that the nachash was cursed to become a literal snake, that the terms of the curse were metaphorical, which was something I attempted to bring out awhile back. The terms of the curse of the "serpent" are not literal, but they are real spiritual things.

I agree. But I also think I can say, with a good deal of certainty, that Dr. Heiser also believes that The Bible teaches us that Jehovah knew as a fact that the Adam was going to turn before He created them, which, of course, I don't. So my logic will vary somewhat from his for that difference.

Quote from: Doc
Quote from: Dennis
The world Jehovah intended for us to know was disrupted by disobedience and the history that would have been, now becomes a history of redemption and restoration because God loved this world that He created so very much that He sent His only unique Son, the only other One of His Kind, to be born Human, of a virgin woman, so that He would know what it was like to be a Human and thus, being made sympathetic toward us, through His obedience to The Father, despite suffering horribly for it as He accomplished the forgiveness of the Sins of the world, He proceeded to redeem us all, every single one of us, one by one, for His making it possible to be that, whosoever should be believing on His Name, which Name The Father is making the Name above all Names for His willingness to permanently leave His position as co-regent with The Father and become, forever, a Glorified Human Being, would not perish because of Sin but would, instead, inherit that promised aionian life intended for me to know as a virtuous and good human being, exactly as Jehovah intended for me to be, from the very beginning, even as that is what I am now re-sired by Jehovah to become through my faith, repentance and baptism into His unique Son Who's spirit has come and made His home inside me, where this Son of Man said that the Kingdom of God is.

~

Doc, I've gone back and re-read what I've just written and truly it sounds fantastic. Yet this is where my thoughts lead me, logically, for the things I have learned.

I can't describe the effect this has had on me.

However, know that  I have no problem putting my faith in the fantastic things I can conclude from Truth: It's the contradictory and ugly things I can conclude from wrong thoughts, like the one that teaches us that Jehovah knew, as a fact, that the Adam was going to turn before He created them, that I can't put my faith in. Just like Ishsha had a wrong thought about The Words of God and it was used against her.

I began my understanding by believing that there existed a truthful and therefore singular understanding of The Words that, when grasped, would explain what has been revealed for us to know in a good and beautiful way.

Now I'm not saying, at this point, that I've got a full grasp of Genesis 1-3; for God knows how many times I've changed Creation Hymn over the years from when I first started writing it; but I will say this: For the first time since I began this journey of discovery, I have an answer to all of the questions I once had.

And right now, I can't seem to think of any more to ask.

Doc these thoughts are nascent and so likely you'll be able to poke a few holes in them from your understanding; and I will say that would be a welcome thing, that I may test it for truth and adjust these thoughts accordingly.

And I will add that I didn't find anything in what Michael wrote that disproved my original assertions concerning the two words Strongs # 5172 and Strongs # 5175 that I discovered when I first gave you answer to your inquiry about the serpent.

However, know that  I will be referring to this being as the nachcash in my future writings rather than as 'the serpent' because that is a lot less misleading, given the literal curse on this real-time, brightly shining, upright-walking, wise and crafty, conscience-bearing nachcash that was literally turned from a son of God into a snake for its wickedness.
It's no wonder to me that we hate snakes so much.

Again I thank you for introducing this. Like I said, you are a gift from God.

Be good, Doc!

It is what you were created to be, after all.

And blessings as well!

Dennis!

Always glad to help clarify things, even if the conclusions from them are different.

Yes, I can appreciate that.

Dennis!
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 06:27:12 PM by Eleutheros »

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #167 on: October 24, 2009, 03:59:23 AM »

Dennis,

Please read this article and tell me what you think. I have to go, will be back maybe tomorrow or Sunday and respond more.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d950101.htm

CHB

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9022
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #168 on: October 24, 2009, 04:27:40 AM »

Dennis,

Please read this article and tell me what you think. I have to go, will be back maybe tomorrow or Sunday and respond more.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d950101.htm

CHB

I'm not Dennis, but I enjoyed the article  :thumbsup:.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #169 on: October 24, 2009, 06:59:46 AM »

Dennis,

Please read this article and tell me what you think. I have to go, will be back maybe tomorrow or Sunday and respond more.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d950101.htm

CHB

Hey!

A Divine lottery, eh? At least the author doesn't beleive in an eternal hell- that's good. And the author does claim, emphatically even, that God's lottery was unbiased and unfixed. That's good too. I wouldn't want to think that God was rigging His lottery of souls.

The logic is easy enough to follow and I understand how he got to his conclusion, but is his conclusion the truth?

Well, CHB, what I think is that if what this gentleman with a Phd wrote is what you want to believe so that you can make sense of the God who foreordained His Son to be crucified from the foundation of the world (1 Pet 1:19-20 KJV) then it is for you.

Beyond that, my views are well enough known by now that I don't see a need to repeat them again through a lengthy blow-by-blow counter-argument.

Thanks, but I'll pass on this one, if you don't mind.  :Peace2:

Be good!

Dennis!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 09:10:41 AM by Eleutheros »

Eleutheros

  • Guest
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #170 on: October 26, 2009, 05:06:59 PM »
To All:

My experience here on Tentmaker has brought me to completion.

When I came here I was not that confident in my understanding of The Words for knowing exactly how antithetical it was to the modern medieval understanding that is officially called Calvinism, even though it was Augustine of Hippo who deserves the credit.

And even though I know you would disagree, it is an understanding that I perceive is clung to even more tenaciously among UR folk, for having eliminated from your thinking the less offensive component of his understanding, namely, 'hell', than I've ever known it to be among the Protestant Churches from which I came.

Seriously, I knew I was challenging over 18 centuries of Christian thought that had bent itself on making some logical sense of  Augustine's idiosyncratic idea of hell and predestination; and when I said I'm a 'nobody', both in this world and in Christendom, I was not just being humble.

When I came here, I was scared.

Since then, I've learned a lot from all of you, more than you will ever know, as I worked out my answers to all of your challenges. And for that I am now quite confident that this which I've put my faith in is a considerably more beneficial and truthful understanding than can be found in any of those understandings that have been derived, over the centuries, from the 1611-1728 interpretation of The Words of God called the King James Bible.

A interpretation that even you, yourselves, have come to distrust for having discovered, for yourselves, exactly how the hellish theology of John Calvin et. al. was shoe-horned into The Original Text; a theology that, on most every other point, except the ones that I presented familiar arguments against, you, yourselves, have proven false, to your own satisfaction.

As was said, amazingly enough,"… so John Calvin got one right"!

I believe that this statement pretty much sums up the thoughts of the majority of the Tentmakers; as well as the thoughts of all those others who's websites also promote the ancient truth that is older than Augustine of Hippo himself, namely that Jesus Christ is becoming the Savior of all men and women; those who have lived, those who are living and those who are yet to be born.

Well, from my understanding I can say, with all confidence in the truth I perceive, that you've got one right.

'Cause really, why should I find fault with anyone, given the centuries of influence, who is trying to make some kind of logical sense out of the strange things The King James Bible was premeditated to teach us? It is, after all, a subtle, shrewd and very beautiful adaptation of The Words of God.

It's a good thing for me, then, that I didn't come here to convince anybody of anything.

For it is a truth, just as I have said it several times before; understanding doesn't equate to agreement.

And so I find that I must be moving on.

I can say, honestly, that I have enjoyed my time here.
 
Doc, as I said before, I say it again-you were a gift from my God. I could almost wish that I had been able to convince you that I'm 'onto something' because I perceive that you would have been quite an asset in helping to strengthen this loony understanding of mine. Regardless, though, our ping-pong exchanges were quite exciting even as we, apparently, provided some entertainment for the Tentmakers- if the hit counter is any indication of the interest we aroused. Truly I am grateful for your 'taking up the paddle' in defense of the Tentmaker's majority understanding. Bravo!  :clapping:  :handshake:

And I also thank you for introducing me to a key puzzle piece that was missing before in my understanding; the logical and truthful conclusions of Dr. Heiser.
 
Likewise, CHB, your team volleys were also much appreciated. I thank you for the courage you showed in challenging this… this… 'Person'... who dared to say such things about your God! We had some fun, eh?  :tease:

And Molly, the first one to speak with the minority voice here; I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your encouraging words. I want you to know that your words came at a critical time and helped me to overcome the trembling fingers I was typing with then. You, too, were a gift from my God. :ty:

And rosered- You're heart was like a breath of fresh air! I thank you for your encouragement and for your input; I loved the feeling of goodness that I got from you. May God bless you for the sincerity you hold in your heart of thoughts. :giveheart:

 
And to Brandon; I thank you for asking me sincere questions.  :wink1:

And for all the others who posted on this thread, I thank you as well for taking the time to post your thoughts. They were all read and they were all appreciated, even if I didn't personally reply to all of them. Know then that, in order to avoid rabbit trails and the time they take to follow, I had decided to limit myself to only responding to those who replied directly to me.

And so, even if you don't agree with it, I hope you at least understand now what I mean when I say,

Be good!

It's what you were created to be.

Dennis!

P.S.I leave you all with this poem I wrote about what it meant to me to be born again:


Once Born, Again

Once, long ago,
as we measured time then,
you seduced me.
You enticed me with your promises,
but, it was your unrelenting desire
that gradually drew me,
until my heart overruled my mind
and not knowing what to expect,
I finally surrendered myself to you.

You swore vows to me then
as you embraced me;
vows I soon learned I could trust.
My guilt ravaged spirit
trembled with new emotion
as you skillfully aroused in me desire
unlike any I'd ever known,
preparing me
for what you were about to do.

Suddenly, you entered me.

That moment seared itself
into my conscience
as I cried in anguish
from the exquisite pain;
my spirit receiving you;
virgin in this infant desire,
but far from innocent.

And in that moment,
when you engulfed me,
and possessed me
and released into me
your sperm-
as I felt it's warmth
spread through my soul,
joining itself to me
and creating a new life-
the pain was gone.
Replaced by tears of joy
as I wept uncontrollably
to feel your presence
deep inside me.

In that moment, time ceased
and there was just you and me.

As you intended,
in your knowing wisdom,
the memory of that moment
has lasted till this day.
That new life
you conceived and birthed in a second
grew inside me,
day after day,
experience after experience,
changing me
into someone
I never thought I wanted to be;
changing me
into someone
that you could love forever;
changing me
into your bride.

Now, we are here together,
alone again,
at last.
Your body,
scarred and beautiful,
close to mine,
your marked face glowing,
filling me with light;
your eyes, filled with desire,
looking deep into mine;
your hands,
pierced, but bloodless,
caressing me,
drawing me into you.


There is now no Sex
that separates us
into just Male and Female.
there is nothing anymore
that can ever separate us
as the gratitude in my soul
and the love in my spirit
and the desires in this brand new body
overwhelm me
as we enter into each other,
setting my emotions free to soar,
feeling my spirit once again
joined to yours.
This time,
my Savior and my Lord,
The Lover of my soul,
Forever.
Dennis Martin
John 3:1-6, I John 3:9
March 5, 2006
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 05:16:22 PM by Eleutheros »

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #171 on: October 26, 2009, 09:18:20 PM »

Does that mean I'm not a total loony?  :grin:

It at least means we agree on some things.

Quote
(Specifically we were created to be virtuous, as Jehovah is virtuous, that is, to have a conscience and a desire to consistently choose what is right and good to do from that powerful conscience gained through the independently virtuous, singular choice of choosing, first, to trust Jehovah's intentions for them, given a temptation not to.)

I think you're still reading this into the text, and we've already discussed the problems with this arrangement.

Well the silence of Jehovah also gives an answer as well for my seeking an alternate answer to the question, "Why didn't He tell them why He didn't want them to eat from the Tree of Conscience?"
Your answer would be because He wanted them to be disobedient and fall exactly because He knew, as a fact, that they were going to anyway.

So, don't you see Doc, that this answer is also from reading something into the text? And just as I do you also claim to use the entire Bible to support your supposition with the only differences boiling down to which English word we choose for katabole and how we understand Jehovah gets His ability to know things before.

I think it comes down to which is the more reasonable scenario based on everything we know about God. As I've said, it doesn't just boil down to one word.

Quote
And so one day Dennis asked Himself, "How can I cause Doc to perceive what I perceive?"

Answer: "You can't, so don't even try. It would require a pardigm shift in his thinking, Dennis. And pardigm shifting is beyond your abilities." :icon_jokercolor:

Seriously, I was being rhetorical, Doc, not literal; for obviously God needs only Himself for inspiration and can answer His own 'questions'. 

I see.


Quote
And my answer is the same as before: It is not 'a mistake' or 'falling short' or 'missing the mark' or 'sinning' when He couldn't know the definite outcome of an event that was unique and unduplicatable in our history.

It's a lot different thing to have handed any of your children the car keys at the door on the day one of them got into a horrible auto collision that you couldn't possibly have foreknown was going to happen, than when you hand one of your children the car keys the door saying "Be careful now!" on the day you foreknow, as a fact, that they are going to be in a horrible auto collision.

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. I don't think we can use such a simple analogy when it comes to God's knowledge and wisdom vs. a human parent's.

Quote
Did you read what I wrote to CHB on Ephesians?

No. Perhaps I should?

Quote
The choice of which direction we would go to accomplish His intentions for us was given to our Parents because this was a necessary step in establishing them as virtuous and loving beings, just like He is.
So, He is now, with this reality that we caused to be through disobedience and lack of trust, ensuring that His intentions for us, despite our own disobedience, becomes reality because what He wants is good for ALL and that is because He is agape, or fondness and affection.

If God gave us a choice (or choices) without knowing what the outcome would be, that would mean that God actually lost control of His creation, and that there are things that are truly out of His control. That would make Him equal to or even weaker than we are. I can't accept this.

Quote
I agree. But I also think I can say, with a good deal of certainty, that Dr. Heiser also believes that The Bible teaches us that Jehovah knew as a fact that the Adam was going to turn before He created them, which, of course, I don't. So my logic will vary somewhat from his for that difference.

Yes. That's the problem. Logic has to be consistent within its own set of premises. The problem is guaranteeing that the premises are true.


I don't know if you'll see this response, because it sounds like you're leaving, but I wish you the best.

Tim
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #172 on: October 27, 2009, 07:28:27 PM »

Hi Dennis,

I see you are leaving or have left already so I see no need in continuing on with questions or answers. Just know that you are in my prayers and may God guide you in all your endeavors.

CHB

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3070
  • Gender: Female
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #173 on: October 27, 2009, 09:01:08 PM »

 
  Nice poem  Dennis , Thanks for sharing  it  with us all .
  God bless and keep you always   where ever you are and where ever  you go .     you can stick around awhile  too   :HeartThrob:

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4171
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: katabole vs. themelios: Will the real foundation please be laid...
« Reply #174 on: November 14, 2009, 08:21:53 PM »
     God could be great enough to set up an enclosed environment(kosmos and aion) within which free will operates. Yet the will operates in response to certain principles and elements in continual action(as God has set them in motion) within that sphere. We are chosen and elect according to the foreknowledge of God- a perspective we do not have. He knows the end from the beginning. Jesus learned obedience through the things He suffered because He also did not have, while here bound in "kosmos and aion", that perspective.

    We need not question the potter, "Why have you made me thus?". For, "Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has given to Him that He should repay". We will always see through a glass darkly in this mortal time, which is a stewardship, given to us in order that we might, "learn obedience through the things that we suffer". We are called to "choose each day whom we shall serve", and exhorted, "Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as they did in the wilderness and saw my works 40 years". Yet, we can do nothing without Him and have nothing that was not given us- so we can judge(condemn, pronounce final sentence) no one- yet, as we grow in love and wisdom, we judge(discern) everyone.

    All is grace; the consciousness of missing the mark, the desire to obey and the will to obey and the strength to obey. The obedience in its purest essence is rest, "labor diligently to enter His rest". Ceasing from my own works-say no to myself and join the dying(pouring out) so that life can come forth. Seeing the light as growing harmony of my will with His on a daily experiential basis....not just as a theological one. Embracing the grace and the love, which are the POWER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and confessing when I fail in the pursuit to the one who will embrace me and restore me so that I can grow in progressive sanctification- a PROCESS of love and grace.

      This grace process is transforming me and then flowing through me as I grow from baby child(receiver) of God to servant son(distributor) of God. Katabole to me is the "overthrow" of the "foundation" of the veil of the flesh/carnal mind- darkened in understanding, sitting beneath the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and eating it and dying, "separated from the life that is in God" and "hostile toward the God.... for it does not subject itself to the law of God, nor can it". Divisive. Gnostic. Legalistic. The law of God is "the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus" which has set us free from the law of sin and death-a consciouness of sins- and set us free into "the glorious liberty of the sons of God"-a consciousness of love and grace and an explosive desire to flow in the grace of God towards all. "Behold.....I make all things new.....If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a new creature.....For all those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son." Therefore there is no condemnation for those who who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit....they are eating from the tree of life, "For if we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship(koinonea, oneness, union, harmony) and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin".  As long as I rule from my mind in gnostic religion and until Christ rules in my heart as a partaker of the divine nature, the katabole of God will work on me to destroy every lofty tower that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God. The chastising of sons, and many trials set in motion by the Father for purifying faith in the fire (that fire the Lord counciled the Laodiceans to get) will continue. But no fear, after we have suffered a little while God Himself will confirm, strengthen and establish us. 

Rom 6:14-19  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.(grace reproduces the divine nature)  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.(If you love Christ use liberty to serve, not to sin) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey(the self or the Lord, love or self-will, grace or self righteousness), his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience(nevertheless not my will but Yours) unto righteousness(love and grace)?  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin(in the old man before we crucified him through faith in Christ and submission to His Lordship), but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine(1 Pet 1:22-25) which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.  I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have(in the past) yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity(progressive wickedness); even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness(progressive purity).

that form of doctrine
1Pe 1:22-23  Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,  (23)  for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Joh 13:34-35  "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

1Jn 1:6-10  If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness(not loving, hating, seeking dominion) we lie and do not practice the truth.  But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The grace and the truth are there. We grow in grace where we once grew in iniquity. The grace is the means, through the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus - we grow now in purity,(unfeigned love from a pure heart) as our Lord demonstrated in His life and on the cross.

Php 3:13-15  Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,  (14)  I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.  (15)  Let us therefore, as many as are perfect(mature), have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

 
The words, "If in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you" for me, define "katabole".


Col 3:3-16  For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-- a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com