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All has been given, then all will have Aionios life!???

Will EVERYONE have age abiding (Aionios) life!?
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Is Aionios for EVERYONE???
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Author Topic: John 17:2,3  (Read 3803 times)

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Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2009, 07:09:08 PM »

In Revelation I read that people are cast into LoF after judgement. After being resurected.
That would mean we already died. Assuming there is a relation between sins and the severity of LoF people that have  a bad life (hunger, poor, sick) where the greatest sinners.
But almost none die purified....

I see what it is that you are saying, BUT KNOWING now that Aionios life is Believing in God and Jesus Christ, we are assuming that Aionios punishment is life NOT knowing God and Jesus Christ.
With this in mind, think about what purpose would it serve for a Non-Chosen person to walk through YET another experience of life NOT KNOWING GOD (Your real lake of fire)???
If this is NOT the LOF, then the person who is NOT Chosen will once again go through another experience "Not knowing God or Jesus Christ!"
What purpose would that serve?? It would seem that more stinging and pain would not do any good. Especially when you take into consideration how FAST Jesus can turn a sinner into a Saint, just like he did with Paul (Formerly Saul).

Do you see what I am getting at?

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2009, 07:58:25 PM »
So to recap:

John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL things into his hand."  (ALL THINGS are given to the Son!)

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (ALL the things given to the Son will come to him)

John 17:2 "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM." (If we see from John 3:35, ALL things were given to the Son and those SAME ALL THINGS WILL BE GIVEN LIFE)

John 17:3  And this is life eternal (Age abiding/Aionos) that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

The above John 17:2,3 are stating that ALL will be given Aionios life and that Aionios life is actually BELIEVING IN GOD AND HIS SON!!!!!
That is IT’S DEFINITION!!!


We KNOW that ALL will put on Immortality.

We know that there is FIRE on the house of God NOW and that ALL will be salted with FIRE and that men are SAVED AS BY FIRE!!!!


As I have stated,....I am not SURE about this life being the Lake of Fire, but it sure seems to be pointing towards that direction.

As WhiteWings stated: "In Revelation I read that people are cast into LoF after judgement. After being resurected.
That would mean we already died." YET!!,.....as we ALL know the Word of God is full of words like die and death and they don't ALWAYS mean death, as in dying physically!!
Nor does the Word of God always make everything so clear as to understand it at first glance.
So all I am saying is that it would be a good idea to take a look at this subject and beat it to death with a stick until we are SURE BEYOND a doubt that this life is NOT the Lake of FIRE!
I am sure when the first Universalists happened upon passages that seemed to prove that everyone would be saved, there were people who were telling them that they were crazy! But there is NEVER anything wrong in chasing an idea and seeing if it holds water.


Peace out. :thumbsup:
If anyone comes up with stuff like "WW" did that shows that what I say is wrong or something that gives more support to it, I would love to hear it. Either way, it is ALL good!  :Sparkletooth:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2009, 08:13:31 PM »
 :cloud9: You have a great attitude about seeking after revelation, Dante.  :thumbsup: Blessings.....
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 04:47:04 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline chuckt

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2009, 09:00:42 PM »
So to recap:

John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL things into his hand."  (ALL THINGS are given to the Son!)

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (ALL the things given to the Son will come to him)

John 17:2 "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM." (If we see from John 3:35, ALL things were given to the Son and those SAME ALL THINGS WILL BE GIVEN LIFE)

John 17:3  And this is life eternal (Age abiding/Aionos) that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

The above John 17:2,3 are stating that ALL will be given Aionios life and that Aionios life is actually BELIEVING IN GOD AND HIS SON!!!!!
That is IT'S DEFINITION!!!


We KNOW that ALL will put on Immortality.

We know that there is FIRE on the house of God NOW and that ALL will be salted with FIRE and that men are SAVED AS BY FIRE!!!!


As I have stated,....I am not SURE about this life being the Lake of Fire, but it sure seems to be pointing towards that direction.

As WhiteWings stated: "In Revelation I read that people are cast into LoF after judgement. After being resurected.
That would mean we already died." YET!!,.....as we ALL know the Word of God is full of words like die and death and they don't ALWAYS mean death, as in dying physically!!
Nor does the Word of God always make everything so clear as to understand it at first glance.
So all I am saying is that it would be a good idea to take a look at this subject and beat it to death with a stick until we are SURE BEYOND a doubt that this life is NOT the Lake of FIRE!
I am sure when the first Universalists happened upon passages that seemed to prove that everyone would be saved, there were people who were telling them that they were crazy! But there is NEVER anything wrong in chasing an idea and seeing if it holds water.


Peace out. :thumbsup:
If anyone comes up with stuff like "WW" did that shows that what I say is wrong or something that gives more support to it, I would love to hear it. Either way, it is ALL good!  :Sparkletooth:



If Jesus IS WAS and WILL BE, and Jesus is the lake of fire, then the LOF  WAS and IS and WILL BE.

The ones whom go thru the lake NOW have eionian life while the others dont.

just saying....

peace
chuckt
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Offline Doc

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2009, 11:08:30 PM »
I think what he was surmising was that Christ is the fire in the "lake", not the lake of fire itself. A subtle but perhaps important distinction?
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2009, 04:45:12 AM »
:cloud9: You have a great attitude after seeking after revelation, Dante.  :thumbsup: Blessings.....

Thank you, but I don't think it is always something good, because sometimes if feels like if I don't know something it is going to drive me MAD!!
LOL!!!
But thank you very much for your kind words!

Peace to your heart always!
God Bless.

Dante

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2009, 04:47:06 AM »
I think what he was surmising was that Christ is the fire in the "lake", not the lake of fire itself. A subtle but perhaps important distinction?

Correct, since we are ALL to be light to the World. We are also flames that help light the way for the unsaved.
Jesus is the FIRST of many.

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2009, 05:37:57 AM »
If Jesus IS WAS and WILL BE, and Jesus is the lake of fire, then the LOF  WAS and IS and WILL BE.

The ones whom go thru the lake NOW have eionian life while the others dont.

just saying....

peace
chuckt


Ok,......I see what you are saying. But I believe that Jesus Christ was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life ALSO!
Let me explain a little.
The ONLY way we get TRUE KNOWLEDGE is through God,…Correct??
The ONLY way we get LIFE is through GOD,….Correct???
But we humans cannot face God in his pure form at this time, so God needed to make a way to give us interaction without killing us. And that is where Jesus Christ came in.
Notice the Tree of Life has a “Messenger with a flaming sword” around it so that no one could partake of the tree. (Ah even there is the Lake of Fire,….our God is a consuming Fire!!)
Jesus is the exact representation of God. He is NOT fully God in the respect that he is ALL that God IS! (And in fact NONE of us can comprehend the fullness of God. To try to do so would be putting God in a BOX!) BUT,….he is the representation of what God is, since he is the WORD of God.

It is like if someone calls you,…say a friend of yours named Bill. When your mom calls you to the phone and says: “Hey Chuck!!!” “It is Bill!!”, they do NOT mean that Bill is physically present, but the WORDS of Bill will be heard on the phone,… by YOU.
So to me, ONE ASPECT of Jesus’ coming was: God making a Phone Call to the human race.
He was MUCH, MUCH more than a phone call, but I take Jesus’ presence as AT LEAST THAT.

Now we know that Aionios life is Knowing God and Jesus Christ. And we surmise that Aionios punishment is NOT knowing God and Jesus Christ, YET, even though the Non-Chosen of this time,….in this life are NOT knowing God, they still COULD be in the Lake of Fire since they are experiencing Aionios punishment (Age long correction/Age long punishment, age long purifying).
To a Chosen one, this life is Age abiding life,…Through Christ. To a Non-Chosen one, it is ONLY punishment or correction.
YET,…ALL of us feel the STING and PAIN of the Flames, do we not???
That is why Fire is on the House of God NOW!
And IF the Non-Chosen will have Aionios life anyway. Which we KNOW to be TRUE from John 17:3, then why could this NOT be the Lake of Fire??

Jesus paid for the sins of the WHOLE world. This we all accept, so what is keeping a Non-Chosen from becoming like us. It MUST be just the Flesh.
Paul (Formerly Saul) was converted in about three seconds, so I don’t see any reason for any more fire in the life of a Non-Chosen member of the human race once he is dead.
Do YOU??

I think the human race has already been judged. I think that Jesus paid for the penalty of our sins and the sins of the whole world.
We on this earth and in this life have ALL learned Good from Evil. And wasn’t that the whole point of things in the first place???
It wasn’t to find God! Since God says: NO MAN seeks after God,…NO NOT ONE!
AND,…I Choose you, you do NOT choose me!
The purpose of this life is to learn the difference between Good and Evil.
And don’t the Hitlers, Mansons Stalins and Pauls (The Chief of all sinners) learn about EVIL??? Didn’t Judas Iscariot learn of EVIL??
I don’t see any more need for more of a lesson plan than THIS LIFE.

Sorry to blather, but I want to fortify one other thing I said. I do not want to lesson the difference between God and Jesus, nor do I want to make it out to be too different either.
The way I think of it is this: God the Father is the Brain. The Son of God is the Hand, tongue and other parts of the body (And in fact we are also part of that body). That is why Jesus was able to say that HE didn’t even know certain things, but that the Father did.
This whole trinity thing and who is who and what is what, is just so much NUTS!
God is one God. Jesus is the Son of God, because he is the off spring of God because God needed a way to interact with us humans. He is the Mouthpiece of God.
And that is ONE REASON why God needs to be ALL IN ALL in the end.
He will MERGE (If you will) with himself and become ONE once again. There will be NO MORE distinction between Jesus and the Father.
We worship ONE GOD,… that does certain things to handle his plans for the human race.

Another important fact about God being ALL IN ALL is that WE ARE ALL PART OF GOD TOO! (Please don’t flame me to hard for that one.)
So when it comes down to brass tacks, we need to MERGE with God in the end and COME BACK to the family or WHOLENESS of God that we USED TO BE!!
I believe we are ALL part of God. It is even mentioned that we are called gods.
So I don’t see this as being a HUGE jump of faith.

That is my take on things.
I am sorry I took up so much space. But once I get going,…well I tend to blather. :dontknow:
I hope you will pardon me.
Peace be with all of you. :gangel:

Dante

If anyone has any objections or interjections, I would be more than happy to hear your wisdom on the subjects that I have written on. I am sure that I am not right about EVERYTHING, but I get the feeling that I may not be wrong about some of it.
LOL! :grin:
I would especially like to hear any passages of scripture that would disprove or prove what I say is right or wrong.
Thanks!


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2009, 09:04:35 AM »
I think what he was surmising was that Christ is the fire in the "lake", not the lake of fire itself. A subtle but perhaps important distinction?

Correct, since we are ALL to be light to the World. We are also flames that help light the way for the unsaved.
Jesus is the FIRST of many.
So first fruits actually is first flames?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2009, 04:09:47 PM »
I think what he was surmising was that Christ is the fire in the "lake", not the lake of fire itself. A subtle but perhaps important distinction?

Correct, since we are ALL to be light to the World. We are also flames that help light the way for the unsaved.
Jesus is the FIRST of many.
So first fruits actually is first flames?



L. Ray Smith puts it this way and I find it VERY interesting the way he puts it. I am not sure if EVERYTHING he says is correct, but MUCH of what he says makes a heck of a lot of sense. I have not figured everything out,.....it is just that I wonder how much of prophecy as we know it has ALREADY been fulfilled. Ray has a lot more knowledge than I and I am not God, of COURSE, I am just trying to figure things out as you are.
And by the way, we should all pray for this GREAT man of God. He has cancer and is fighting hard and doing his best. I hope all who read this would say a small prayer for him. So, in the spirit of Agape, lets listen to the way Ray puts it
:


THE WAVE SHEAF (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover): "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf OF the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest ... And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the FIRST year for a burnt offering unto the Lord" (Lev. 23:10-12).
 
COMMENT: This wave sheaf of the very first of the firstfruits is a type of our Lord Who was the perfect Lamb without blemish offered in the Spring on Passover. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUIT of them that sleep" (I Cor. 15:20). Jesus is not the entire firstfruits but rather "the firstfruit OF them that sleep." He is the firstfruit OF the firstfruit or more precisely the "wave sheaf OF the firstfruits." Firstfruit is a term that pertains to agriculture and harvesting. It was never a theological term until introduced into the New Testament with regards to a small number who would be saved prior to a much larger number to be saved later.

THE FIRSTFRUITS (Feast of Weeks): "All the best of the oil , and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the FIRSTFRUITS of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee ... And whatsoever is FIRST RIPE in the land which they shall bring unto the Lord, shall be thine..." (Num. 18:12 & 13). "And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O Lord, has given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the Lord thy God" (Deut. 26:10).
 
COMMENT: The type in the New Testament of this Old Testament symbol is the Believer. Notice what James tells us, "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of His creatures" (James 1:18). Now a very important point: How far down the road in prophecy can we go until we reach the end of the firstfruits? In Rev. 7:4-8 we read of the sealing of the 144,000. These are a different group from the great innumerable multitude, which no man could number, from every nation and tongue spoken of beginning in verse 9.
 
In Chapter 14:1 & 4 we are told specifically who these 144,000 are: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand [notice that the innumerable multitudes from all nations is not mentioned here] ... These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [as in the Bride of Christ]. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:1 & 4). So every believer from the Apostles to the 144,000 just prior to the return of Jesus Christ to establish His reign on the earth, is called and likened to FIRSTFRUITS! So what does this have to do with the lake of fire? EVERYTHING! Everyone saved before the Day of Judging is likened to firstfruits, so there will be no more firstfruits after the white throne judgment.
 
Paul tells us in Rom. 8:23, "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." Nowhere do we read of the "LASTFRUITS," but whenever something is FIRST we also know there is something to follow. Nor are there any references to any "ONLYFRUITS." The firstfruits are clearly not the ONLY fruits! Follow this very closely now, for you are in for a big shock when you understand the type in the fall festival of Tabernacles—the great fall harvest.

THE END-OF-THE-YEAR FEAST OF INGATHERING (Feast of Tabernacles): "And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou has sown in the field and the FEAST OF INGATHERING, which is in the END OF THE YEAR, when you have gathered in thy labours out of the field" (Ex. 23:16).
 
"Thou shall observe the FEAST OF TABERNACLES seven [number of perfection] days, after that you have gathered in your corn and your wine: And you shall REJOICE IN YOUR FEAST, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the widow, that are within your gates [that’s just about EVERYONE, wouldn’t you say?]. Seven days [here’s that perfect number again] shall you keep A SOLEMN FEAST [a very important feast to God] unto the LORD your God in the place which the Lord shall choose: because the Lord thy God shall bless you in all your increase, and in all the works of your hands, therefore you shalt surely REJOICE" (Deut. 16:13-15). Here truly was a festival in which EVERYONE, every single person in all Israel, and also did you notice, "the STRANGER" who was NOT an Israelite could really REJOICE! THIS FESTIVAL WAS THE HAPPIEST TIME OF THE YEAR! Do we think it will have no fulfillment in God’s grand plan of salvation?
 
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, the fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the FEAST OF TABERNACLES for seven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein. Seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the EIGHTH DAY shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by FIRE unto the LORD: it is a SOLEMN assembly; and you shall do no servile work therein" (Lev. 23:34-36). Why is the profound and marvelous truth of this festival not taught in its proper chronological order by the prophets of Christendom? How is it even possible to avoid seeing the powerful and glorious consummation of God’s salvation in this Fall Harvest Festival? Why is the truth of this GREAT FEAST being hidden from the eyes of the world? What is it that they are trying to hide from us? God’s Word will show us.



Offline Cardinal

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2009, 06:23:23 PM »
 :cloud9: Amen........but it's not that they're hiding it; they can't see the last feast. Jesus went in unto this feast IN SECRET after the disciples tried to get Him to go.

Christ IS the firstfruits offering, the remnant WITHIN the remnant that we are.

Wanted to share this experience I had while in OK in a Native American church; they had a conference and a man who was a pastor in Arizona came as guest speaker on the one of the days. The second he opened his mouth, an anointing of the authority of God hit myself and my friend and sorta knocked us back in our seats. That got our attention real quick, and I liked him already. :winkgrin:

Then he spoke about 3 sentences, pausing to stop between each to hear what the LORD wanted to say. At that point, I KNEW we were witnessing something special in the body. He finally said that the Lord told him to pray, lay hands on, and speak something specific into the body, and came down off the platform.

When we walked withing about 6 feet of me, we were all standing, and I was astonished to find that the "He makes His ministers flames of fire" was LITERAL. I could literally feel a wall of fire I couldn't see that didn't burn, around this man. With my mouth hanging open, I took my hand up and down it and could feel the flames going between my fingers, tickling. Lord help us to all become flames of Your fire. Blessings.....

PS to Beloved Servant........this man knew about Sonship.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 06:39:11 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2009, 06:35:31 PM »
I think what he was surmising was that Christ is the fire in the "lake", not the lake of fire itself. A subtle but perhaps important distinction?

Correct, since we are ALL to be light to the World. We are also flames that help light the way for the unsaved.
Jesus is the FIRST of many.
So first fruits actually is first flames?

Also WW,.....we read that we are to be lights to the World.
Churches are portrayed as lamps.
The Burning Bush is God.
God is a pillar of fire to protect his children.
Tongues of flame on the apostles on the day of Pentecost.
Angel (Messenger) with a flaming sword to protect the tree of life.
A flaming sword.
Fire came out of the mouths of the Two witnesses and devoured,...
Our God is a consuming fire.
Angels (Messengers) of light
The TRUTH is always light and fire.

The same fire that saves a man is the same blood of Christ that saves a man.
We are saved as by fire.
We are saved by the Blood of Christ.

Different ways of saying the same things. But there is ONLY ONE WAY of salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ. It is all the same.
That is why the lake of fire being portrayed, by some, as being a bad thing is just plain wrong!

Offline chuckt

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2009, 07:07:23 PM »
Quote
That is why the lake of fire being portrayed, by some, as being a bad thing is just plain wrong!

yup..

and its because the words are seen from carnal glasses. ooooooo fire bad.

well in a way it is bad, but everthing we think and what seems bad God always uses for the GOOD.

im not calling good evil and evil good here, but the delusion is to say God is a righteous judge applying unrighteous judgmenst to God.

with the lips they say ""God is Just"" but the heart reveals the truth.

not all fire is good.

Jam 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell


peace
chuckt


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Offline Cardinal

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2009, 07:12:28 PM »
Jam 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell
peace
chuckt

 :cloud9: Amen, yes it is.......and that fire of "hell" (just means separation from God) that sets the tongue on fire, is that which is IN OUR HEARTS that separates us from the love of God, which is Spirit. Out the abundance of the HEART, the mouth speaks. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline chuckt

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2009, 07:58:42 PM »
Jam 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell
peace
chuckt

 :cloud9: Amen, yes it is.......and that fire of "hell" (just means separation from God) that sets the tongue on fire, is that which is IN OUR HEARTS that separates us from the love of God, which is Spirit. Out the abundance of the HEART, the mouth speaks. Blessings....



ever known someone who could qoute the bible front to back but were meaner than sack full of rattlesnakes
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2009, 08:03:11 PM »
 :cloud9:  :msealed:  :winkgrin: Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline willieH

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2009, 10:26:27 PM »
willieH: Hi Dante... :hithere:

I have ONE issue that I disagree with you on and that is when you state: "As I see it, the "age abiding" thing has to do with this realm... and an "age" can be "limitless" TIME.. or it can be a MOMENT."

Sorry Dante, poor wording on my part.  :blush:  I meant that an age can be quite long or quite short that's all...  Thus my examples of the "duration" of a second... :nod:

"Limitless" was NOT what I meant to say, ... my apologies. (and I am going to correct it in my post!)  :mblush:

And btw... I agree on many levels with the Biblical conclusions of L. Ray Smith, and have had many email discussions with him.

Anyway, on to what you said that I think is VERY, VERY thought provoking!
First off I have Got to say that "TIME is the FIRE in which we burn" is one of the most Brilliant group of words that I have ever heard!!!!! :thumbsup:
IT makes SO much sense!!!!

Me too!  Not sure where I heard it, some quote in a movie... It was AFTER I had heard this, that I began to research the idea of THIS LIFE, as the LOF... it was indeed a poetic and inspiring phrase... Maybe the writer had insight that he was revealing by saying this (i.e., he was "on to" this very idea of the LOF - who knows?  :dontknow:)

You make a reference to time being long for one person and short for another. And I understand what you say. As the man with his hand on a stove and a man hugging his child, TIME is a totally different experience for each.

 :winkgrin:

The next interesting thing you bring up is that Punishment is: NOT KNOWING GOD!
That would make sense if we are saying that THIS is the lake of fire, since GOD'S definition of Aionios life is Knowing God :gangel:, it SHOULD be logical that  NOT KNOWING GOD is Aionios punishment. :sigh:

Again, I agree... Your discovery of the words in John 17, I have already USED! :boogie:

OK,…..so I am with you up until this point. But WHY does God state that he gives Aionios life to Chosen and Aionios correction to Non-Chosen and THEN mentions that he gives Aionios life to ALL that have been given to him?? Which is THE ALL anyway.
It seems kind of a messy way to explain things don't you think?

In His ETERNAL or completed, PURPOSE... ALL have been "given"... for CHRIST was sent (1) To seek and save the LOST -- Luke 19:10 -- (2) NOT to condemn -- John 3:17 -- (3) to reconcile ALL THINGS unto YHVH -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19

In seeking, not condemning and thus, reconciling ALL THINGS, some are chosen to KNOW Him, and others are NOT... such as the JEWS [God's NATURAL and chosen people] -- Rom 11:25

Many skip right by the STATEMENT that the JEWS are the "NATURAL" branches, and because they are the "NATURAL", they must WAIT upon the SPIRITUAL which follows.  This is the ORDER of GOD... and IS done continually.  To include ...the SCRIPTURES!   

The OT which came FIRST... is the display and foundation of GOD dealing with MAN in the NATURAL (eye for eye/Law)...  and WHY it is superceded by the NT which came SECOND... AND which is GOD dealing with MAN in the SPIRIT (forgiveness/Grace) -- 1 Cor 15:46

Ok, so IF I am understanding you correctly, and if this life is the LOF. We are either chosen to believe or not to believe. Once this is done, we die.
Now what happens??

EVERY Knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that JESUS is LORD -- Phil 2:10-11 and ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED -- Rom 11:26 -- these things shall take place BEFORE the CONCLUSION of TIME on the LAST DAY (for the LAST DAY means no other "days" shall follow it)

As the Apostle Paul noted:  1 Tim 2:3-6 -- that the TESTIMONY of ALL shall occur along the lines of TIME (in due time)... Those "chosen" to KNOW CHRIST... are "chosen" according to the ELECTION of YHVH -- Rom 9:11 -- and that "election" is not due to any acts or non-acts of Good OR Evil, but according to the DECISION of God who is WORKING ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- according to HIS WILL -- which also means that He IS ASSOCIATED with ALL that takes place (which is a whole other discussion)...

Is it just our FLESH that is keeping us back from being perfect?


SUFFERING is necessary for COMPLETION and PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- we are ALL following in the footsteps of CHRIST in the end, for HE is the IMAGE -- Heb 1:3 -- and WE are being made in that IMAGE.  So in that following of Him, do we each, suffer.  The only difference is that HE SUFFERED for us (sinLESS), to remove us FROM SUFFERING (sinFULL)...

When will the "ALL" have their Aionios life??


NO!  You are living "aionios life" because you are chosen to KNOW CHRIST ...while... in the SINFUL state.  MOST will not KNOW Him in this state. 

Btw... there is another "PART" to this... it is CHRIST "knowing" US...  We are not COMPLETE in "knowing" unless we are "known", as well!

MANY "chosen" to KNOW CHRIST, are NOT KNOWN of HIM! -- Matt 7:22-23 -- These mentioned in this passage ARE BELIEVERS, for they have SAID that CHRIST is Lord, and this cannot be DONE except by GOD -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- However... the 2nd Part of the equation which is CHRIST "KNOWING" them, is not present in them...

The Scripture which identifies the ones CHRIST "knows" is -- John 10:27 -- when one is preaching the TRUTH and pointing to CHRIST at ALL TIMES (saying as HE SAID -- "of myself, I can DO NOTHING"), ...one is thereby "HEARING His VOICE" -- these in Matt 7:22-23 -- were DOING "their" works... not HIS -- "have not ...WE..."  :blahgreen:

Those who are entered into His REST, ...have CEASED from their own "works" --  Heb 4:10

And have thereby followed Him, in "doing NOTHING ...OF... themselves" as did CHRIST --  John 5:19 & 30

Will it be after they die?


The "aionios" life is KNOWING Him, and vice-versa... And for most it shall be MOMENTARY within the LAST DAY, as they fall to KNEE and Call Him LORD, by HEARING His Voice... and laying ALL that they are, and ...DO...before Him... NOT as the [Matt 7:22-23] ---> PHARISEE (natural) "did and said" -- Luke 18:10-14 --  but AS the ---> PUBLICAN (spiritual) "did and said"! (you do NOTHING of yourself)

I thought we are to put on immortality after death, which would SEEM to rule out any Aionios life.


As I pointed out earlier bro... the terms "aion & aionios" deal with TIME... and TIME is but a tool, which once the job it has been created for has been accomplished, is no longer necessary.  A "MOMENT" can be considered a vast amount of TIME, depending upon the scenario (hand on a burner).

"IMMORTALITY" is found as LIFE in a COMPLETE state, ...when ALL THINGS have been JUDGED, and become KNOWN... and THEN, it is "put on"...  :dontknow:

So that once we die, even the NON Chosen will fall right in line with God because their FLESH is gone?

GOD is NO RESPECTER of persons (completely and perfectly IMPARTIAL)... the PARTS we "play" in KNOWING and NOT KNOWING CHRIST, have to do with completing the SINGLE KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL for ALL... and are ACCORDING to the WILL of GOD who is WORKING ALL THINGS which includes IMPARTIAL "election" to COMPLETE that agenda...

It is NOT (at all) about US, brother D... it is COMPLETELY about HIM!  The "reward" we are to obtain, is the JOY of YHVH... which is to KNOW Him completely -- 1 Cor 15:28

WE are the Joy of YHVH, given by HIM, to one another FOREVER...  :grouppray:  ALL returning to where we "began"...

Remember... the "LOST SON" was WITH the Father, ...then left ...then returned... Luke 15:11-32   :nod:  :boogie:

Everyone's sins are paid for through Jesus Christ. There is NO NEED for any more of that.
So is that IT!!??

Yep! :boogie:

IF SO,….I SAY COOL BEANS!!! :bigGrin:

Metooo!  :friendstu:

I would be amazed if that were the way it was. I could never figure out why God would punish anyone for NOT believing when he is the one who made someone believe or NOT believe in the first place.


Right on bro!  :thumbsup:

Quote
Man may devise but God directs his steps,…and I have chosen you and NOT you have chosen me. No man seeks after God,…NO NOT ONE!!

But being on this planet and having to play the part of the "GOOD GUY" or the "BAD GUY" is just a role given to us by God. And once all is said and done, we will ALL be with God and he will be ALL IN ALL!!

I think I have my loose strings almost all tied up!!
LOL!

Again, ...right on bro!   :2thumbs:

If you, or anyone else, thinks I am "Off Base" on what I have said, please let me in on it!!
Thank you all.
And thank you willeH!

Dante

Not ME!  I think you are right ON POINT!

Thank you as well, brother D!  :gthumbsup: :friendstu:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline chuckt

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2009, 10:44:01 PM »
this all sounds heretical  :happy3:


everyone have a safe weekend.

chuckt

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Offline willieH

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2009, 11:48:38 PM »
If Jesus IS WAS and WILL BE, and Jesus is the lake of fire, then the LOF  WAS and IS and WILL BE.

The ones whom go thru the lake NOW have eionian life while the others dont.

just saying....

peace
chuckt


Ok,......I see what you are saying. But I believe that Jesus Christ was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life ALSO!
Let me explain a little.
The ONLY way we get TRUE KNOWLEDGE is through God,…Correct??
The ONLY way we get LIFE is through GOD,….Correct???
But we humans cannot face God in his pure form at this time, so God needed to make a way to give us interaction without killing us. And that is where Jesus Christ came in.
Notice the Tree of Life has a "Messenger with a flaming sword" around it so that no one could partake of the tree. (Ah even there is the Lake of Fire,….our God is a consuming Fire!!)
Jesus is the exact representation of God. He is NOT fully God in the respect that he is ALL that God IS! (And in fact NONE of us can comprehend the fullness of God. To try to do so would be putting God in a BOX!) BUT,….he is the representation of what God is, since he is the WORD of God.

It is like if someone calls you,…say a friend of yours named Bill. When your mom calls you to the phone and says: "Hey Chuck!!!" "It is Bill!!", they do NOT mean that Bill is physically present, but the WORDS of Bill will be heard on the phone,… by YOU.
So to me, ONE ASPECT of Jesus' coming was: God making a Phone Call to the human race.
He was MUCH, MUCH more than a phone call, but I take Jesus' presence as AT LEAST THAT.

Now we know that Aionios life is Knowing God and Jesus Christ. And we surmise that Aionios punishment is NOT knowing God and Jesus Christ, YET, even though the Non-Chosen of this time,….in this life are NOT knowing God, they still COULD be in the Lake of Fire since they are experiencing Aionios punishment (Age long correction/Age long punishment, age long purifying).
To a Chosen one, this life is Age abiding life,…Through Christ. To a Non-Chosen one, it is ONLY punishment or correction.
YET,…ALL of us feel the STING and PAIN of the Flames, do we not???
That is why Fire is on the House of God NOW!
And IF the Non-Chosen will have Aionios life anyway. Which we KNOW to be TRUE from John 17:3, then why could this NOT be the Lake of Fire??

Jesus paid for the sins of the WHOLE world. This we all accept, so what is keeping a Non-Chosen from becoming like us. It MUST be just the Flesh.
Paul (Formerly Saul) was converted in about three seconds, so I don't see any reason for any more fire in the life of a Non-Chosen member of the human race once he is dead.
Do YOU??

I think the human race has already been judged. I think that Jesus paid for the penalty of our sins and the sins of the whole world.
We on this earth and in this life have ALL learned Good from Evil. And wasn't that the whole point of things in the first place???
It wasn't to find God! Since God says: NO MAN seeks after God,…NO NOT ONE!
AND,…I Choose you, you do NOT choose me!
The purpose of this life is to learn the difference between Good and Evil.
And don't the Hitlers, Mansons Stalins and Pauls (The Chief of all sinners) learn about EVIL??? Didn't Judas Iscariot learn of EVIL??
I don't see any more need for more of a lesson plan than THIS LIFE.

Sorry to blather, but I want to fortify one other thing I said. I do not want to lesson the difference between God and Jesus, nor do I want to make it out to be too different either.
The way I think of it is this: God the Father is the Brain. The Son of God is the Hand, tongue and other parts of the body (And in fact we are also part of that body). That is why Jesus was able to say that HE didn't even know certain things, but that the Father did.
This whole trinity thing and who is who and what is what, is just so much NUTS!
God is one God. Jesus is the Son of God, because he is the off spring of God because God needed a way to interact with us humans. He is the Mouthpiece of God.
And that is ONE REASON why God needs to be ALL IN ALL in the end.
He will MERGE (If you will) with himself and become ONE once again. There will be NO MORE distinction between Jesus and the Father.
We worship ONE GOD,… that does certain things to handle his plans for the human race.

Another important fact about God being ALL IN ALL is that WE ARE ALL PART OF GOD TOO! (Please don't flame me to hard for that one.)
So when it comes down to brass tacks, we need to MERGE with God in the end and COME BACK to the family or WHOLENESS of God that we USED TO BE!!
I believe we are ALL part of God. It is even mentioned that we are called gods.
So I don't see this as being a HUGE jump of faith.

That is my take on things.
I am sorry I took up so much space. But once I get going,…well I tend to blather. :dontknow:
I hope you will pardon me.
Peace be with all of you. :gangel:

Dante

If anyone has any objections or interjections, I would be more than happy to hear your wisdom on the subjects that I have written on. I am sure that I am not right about EVERYTHING, but I get the feeling that I may not be wrong about some of it.
LOL! :grin:
I would especially like to hear any passages of scripture that would disprove or prove what I say is right or wrong.
Thanks!

Dante... this is just plain old, ...GOOD STUFF!   :happygrin:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline willieH

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2009, 12:42:36 AM »
willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

After the generation of Christ (Around 70 AD) this world was the Lake of Fire. Since all prophecy had to happen in THAT generation just like Jesus said.

In Revelation I read that people are cast into LoF after judgement. After being resurected.

"AFTER" is a CHRONOLOGICAL term...  There is NO CHRONOLOGY to the BEING REVEALED as He is SIMULTANEOUSLY the ALPHA ...AND... OMEGA -- BOTH the BEGINNING - AND - the END, Forever!  Never changing!

The "Revelation" is the "REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST"... You presently appear to have a view which is CHRONOLOGICAL of a being [JESUS CHRIST] which IS REVEALED which HAS NO CHRONOLOGY... being BOTH the BEGINNING ...AND... the END...

The WORKS of GOD were FINISHED from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD -- Gen 2:1-2 -- Heb 4:3 -- TIME did not have to OCCUR, in order for those "WORKS" to be COMPLETE. (one of which is JUDGMENT)  GOD does not have to "wait" for TIME to elapse!  His WORK is ETERNAL... and stands ETERNAL!  That you and I are FINITE and unable to percieve the WORK as COMPLETE, does NOT preclude it's ETERNAL PERFECTION...

At the DECLARATION of the END from the BEGINNING, was ALL COMPLETE... that finite MEN, decide that the WORKS of GOD, are INCOMPLETE is a lack of vision (IMO) and (no offense) UNINSPIRED thinking which is CONTRARY to Scriptural TESTIMONY...

JESUS said:

John 12:31 -- "NOW is The JUDMGENT of THIS WORLD"...

That is pretty doggone, PLAIN and "To the POINT"...

Also, JESUS CHRIST ...IS... the same "yesterday, today and for ever"... So the entities which are PART of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST:  The "Lake of FIRE" and "the JUDGMENT", are the same yesterday, today and for ever... NOT necessitating this or that amount of "TIME" to occur in order for HIM to "be REVEALED"...  The WORD is already REVEALED in ALL in the ETERNAL... but for FINITES, we must step through the moments of TIME to GET BACK to where we began.

He is "REVEALED" within the DAYS of your LIFE... which are NOW, and IN THIS MOMENT, is "your" (and my) "BOOK" OPEN (and JUDGED) -- Rev 20:12 -- Yet ALL "BOOKS" were already COMPLETE at the FOUNDATION of the WORLD, having been DECLARED and foretold... as witnessed by the WORD...  :dontknow:

If you wish to know the END, then go to the BEGINNING which are ONE and the SAME:

Gen 2:1 -- Thus the Heavens and the Earth were --  FINISHED -- and ALL the host OF THEM

Heb 4:3 -- for we which have believed do enter into rest as He has said, As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into my rest, ...although THE WORKS WERE FINISHED from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD.

That would mean we already died.


We already DID!   ...IN ADAM!   :dontknow:

When HE died (in spirit) ALL MEN died with him...  :dontknow: -- 1 Cor 15:22

Assuming there is a relation between sins and the severity of LoF people that have  a bad life (hunger, poor, sick) where the greatest sinners.
But almost none die purified....

NOT "almost NONE" -- Only ONE "died purified" bro...  JESUS CHRIST  :first:

:omg:  Boy WW... :pitiful:  I was just wondering, ...How do YOU come to the conclusion that a "child born in Africa which is STARVING without HOPE, is due to his SINS"?  Or that a person "born in POVERTY to parents born in POVERTY is because of their SINS"?   Or that a "child with LEUKEMIA is dying because of  his SINS"?

As far as the "severity" of the LOF... You don't see "severity" in THIS LIFE, ...WW?  All one has to do to SEE "severity" is wake up and observe this world, and the direction in which it is headed -- (more "severity")  :dontknow:

I am 64, WW -- wait till YOU arrive at my age, and let's see what YOUR TESTIMONY of "this life" contains! ...I can witness for HOURS of the "SEVERITY" of THIS LIFE, which has been an ON-GOING part of life since I can remember ANYTHING... :nod:

That "severity" has taken My parents, uncles, aunts, friends, etc... into varying DEATHS which were VERY SEVERE in many cases... not to mention the heartache, disease, varying sorrows, economy... the "severity" list of THIS LIFE, is literally -- ENDLESS!

Believe what you will... it is your right.   But the on-going sufferings of THIS LIFE of sorrows, pain, and death is only countered by KNOWING the JOY of the GOSPEL...

My Lord told me to bring GOOD NEWS... and my testimony for others IS THIS:

JESUS CHRIST -- TOOK AWAY -- the sin of the WORLD... and THAT is what we have to "look forward" to...  :egyptdance: :boogie: :Egyptdance2:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2009, 12:54:13 AM »
 :cloud9: Amen Willie........and we are all walking in various levels of PERSONAL understanding revelation of that central truth given us by the Father, ie. different degrees of 'sleepwalking', waking up to (and in) Christ. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2009, 01:00:19 AM »
:omg:  Boy WW... :pitiful:  I was just wondering, ...How do YOU come to the conclusion that a "child born in Africa which is STARVING without HOPE, is due to his SINS"?  Or that a person "born in POVERTY to parents born in POVERTY is because of their SINS"?   Or that a "child with LEUKEMIA is dying because of  his SINS"?
That's just my point.
I do NOT believe the average child in Africa is worse that the average child in the USA.
And that IS the main stumbling block for me.
My reasoning is that person with a nearly white heart has a milder LoF than a person with a pitch black heart.
And using that reasoning roughly seen Africa has the most pitch black hearts.
But once again that are my thoughts/considerations. Not my conclusion!
My conclusion is more or less because what I wrote above LoF is not now.

Quote
I am 64, WW -- wait till YOU arrive at my age, and let's see what YOUR TESTIMONY of "this life" contains! ...I can witness for HOURS of the "SEVERITY" of THIS LIFE, which has been an ON-GOING part of life since I can remember ANYTHING...

I'm 44. Not quite as old as you are but still enough experience to have an opinion.
I can state as a fact I reached this age without illness/hunger/poverty/....
Many others don't even live that long. They die after 20 years of misery.
And yes I'm happy with my life as it is and was. No severity at all.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 01:06:27 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2009, 11:27:59 AM »
:omg:  Boy WW... :pitiful:  I was just wondering, ...How do YOU come to the conclusion that a "child born in Africa which is STARVING without HOPE, is due to his SINS"?  Or that a person "born in POVERTY to parents born in POVERTY is because of their SINS"?   Or that a "child with LEUKEMIA is dying because of  his SINS"?
That's just my point.
I do NOT believe the average child in Africa is worse that the average child in the USA.
And that IS the main stumbling block for me.
My reasoning is that person with a nearly white heart has a milder LoF than a person with a pitch black heart.
And using that reasoning roughly seen Africa has the most pitch black hearts.
But once again that are my thoughts/considerations. Not my conclusion!
My conclusion is more or less because what I wrote above LoF is not now.

Quote
I am 64, WW -- wait till YOU arrive at my age, and let's see what YOUR TESTIMONY of "this life" contains! ...I can witness for HOURS of the "SEVERITY" of THIS LIFE, which has been an ON-GOING part of life since I can remember ANYTHING...

I'm 44. Not quite as old as you are but still enough experience to have an opinion.
I can state as a fact I reached this age without illness/hunger/poverty/....
Many others don't even live that long. They die after 20 years of misery.
And yes I'm happy with my life as it is and was. No severity at all.


I plan on writing MORE on this subject because EVERYONE is bringing up Excellent points, but I must just write a little, short comment on all of this.

NO MAN can measure pain!!

A woman who has Panic Disorder or Agoraphobia  and cannot leave her house to even walk down her walk to get the paper, never mind go to the market to get the MUCH NEEDED baby's formula is in NO WAY LESS PAINFUL than PERHAPS a man who is being tortured with battery cables!!!

I mean no disrespect to you WW, but I think God is the ONLY one who can measure suffering and torment. Granted being tortured with battery cables must be extremely painful and mind twisting!!! But WHO AMOUNG US can measure the anguish that that mother who needs to get the baby formula to her baby, BUT CANNOT, because of a hereditary illness. That Mother would probably RATHER have the battery cables “Put to Her” than watch her baby suffer from hunger!!!

So to even imply that one person suffers more than another is being BLIND to humanity. We have NO “Pain O Meter” to measure human suffering. In FACT, IMO Physical suffering is NOTHING compared to metal suffering!
I have gone hungry,….to the point of having Severe health problems. I could have easily died from it. It was self induced and done for experimental purposes (A very long story) and it was not pleasant, but I tell you, it was NOTHING compared to some of the mental anguish that I have had happen to me at times in my life.

I will leave it like that for now, but my simple point is this: “No human can TRULY understand or measure another’s pain.” 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2009, 11:54:44 AM »
NO MAN can measure pain!!
But I think man can at least get a good impression of it. And just below you measured pain.
Quote
A woman who has Panic Disorder or Agoraphobia  and cannot leave her house to even walk down her walk to get the paper, never mind go to the market to get the MUCH NEEDED baby's formula is in NO WAY LESS PAINFUL than PERHAPS a man who is being tortured with battery cables!!!
My point is not that I claim to be able to measure the pain difference between the woman and the man you mentioned above. But I can compare with for example me. I never experienced anything of the above. Never knew illness, poverty etc.
My only problem in life is that I have so much useless junk and food in my house I have to find a place to keep it all.
Call me blinded but IMO I'm in less pain than the 4 year child on a garbage dump in India that hopes to find a rotten tomato so it can have his first meal in 3 days.

Quote
I mean no disrespect to you WW, but I think God is the ONLY one who can measure suffering and torment. Granted being tortured with battery cables must be extremely painful and mind twisting!!! But WHO AMOUNG US can measure the anguish that that mother who needs to get the baby formula to her baby, BUT CANNOT, because of a hereditary illness. That Mother would probably RATHER have the battery cables "Put to Her" than watch her baby suffer from hunger!!!
Both are horror. Both are bad. Lets say it's often very hard to compare shades of grey. But I'm not claiming that I'm able to do that. I'm just claiming, pure as an example, that I can distinguish between the 20% lightest shades of grey and the 20% darkest shades of grey. I'm comparing roughly. Not into the 20th decimal.

Quote
So to even imply that one person suffers more than another is being BLIND to humanity. We have NO "Pain O Meter" to measure human suffering. In FACT, IMO Physical suffering is NOTHING compared to metal suffering!
I have gone hungry,….to the point of having Severe health problems. I could have easily died from it. It was self induced and done for experimental purposes (A very long story) and it was not pleasant, but I tell you, it was NOTHING compared to some of the mental anguish that I have had happen to me at times in my life.
And once again you claim the blinded me ever said mental problems are more or less bad than physical problems.
Please also note you just wrote you measured your physical and mental pains; otherwise you can't state your mental anguish was much greater....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2009, 06:07:16 PM »
Please also note you just wrote you measured your physical and mental pains; otherwise you can't state your mental anguish was much greater....

I will get back to you on more of this kind of subject, but I would just like to state that I feel that I can measure MY pain, but not in relation to ANOTHER'S pain.

You don't really know what is happening to a poor starving person in Africa. That is FOR SURE! I am for SURE NOT trying to lessen some poor kid starving, .....BUT every human has HIS OR HER burden. And THIS is God's WILL whether or NOT you believe this is the Lake of Fire!!!! That is a FACT!
It is God's WILL that a child die from starvation. It is God's WILL that my Dad died of Lung Cancer and suffered terribly for it!
So this being the Lake of Fire (Or Not) has NOTHING to do AT ALL with comparing suffering. God makes his children (The Whole Human Race) for HIS REASONS,....and NOT ours!
Jesus cured some people and left SOME with their problems for the Father's reasons.
He didn't cure everyone. God is Ultimitly in control of ALL THINGS!!!!!

If we are to take your phylosphy on the subject, we would have to question God as to why he does this and not that. Or why he doesn't do this and DOES that.

But God said to this question: I am the Potter and you are the clay,....does the clay say to the potter: "Why have you made me this way???"
NO!! We are just DUST. We do NOT have the infinite mind of God that knows why he does what he does. We just TRUST and have FAITH that he knows what he is doing.

So the argument of someone suffering more in this life than another is not a valid argument as to; if this world is the Lake of Fire or not. God does things for his reasons and NOT ours.
I am still writing just a little on the subject and would like to comment on WillieH, because he made a BOAT load of sense in what it was that he said. Unfortunatly I do not have the time at this moment to comment on it. But I will try to get to it in the near future.

But let me say this, God picks some to be THE CHOSEN and some to NOT be the Chosen.
Some men may say; "That is NOT fair", but I say: "God does things HIS WAY, for HIS purposes" and that is the bottom line.
If you or I were God, then we could run the Universe the way WE wanted it to be (And probably screw things up royally!! LOL!), but the fact remains that God is who he is and he will do all his wills, desires and wants, and nothing we can do or say can change that!!
THANK GOD FOR THAT!!!

One more quick thing. My friend visited China a couple of years ago and he wondered how these people could live in such poverty. YET,....they seemed happy and fulfilled. He asked why they were happy in such conditions. They told him that they were happy because they had their family and that was all they needed. I think that says a lot for life, and how we in the western world think of things.
We want running water and if we did not have it or had to share a well with the village people (Not the singing group,...LOL!) we would be appalled and be miserable,..>YET!!! These people loved their lives and would probably say that our society was "Sick" since we do NOT interface with OUR families in the same intimate way that they do!!!!
There is some real WISDOM on the part of people living in poverty!!! There is a lot to be said for being poor but happy. There is a lot to be said for having next to nothing but appreciating what little ONE has.
We all know that MANY RICH people are miserable. Because how much is enough!!!???
Richness comes from the heart and not the stomach or the pocket book or the accolades or anything else. We need God and we need our fellow human beings. That is what the movie: “It is a wonderful life” is all about!