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All has been given, then all will have Aionios life!???

Will EVERYONE have age abiding (Aionios) life!?
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Is Aionios for EVERYONE???
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Author Topic: John 17:2,3  (Read 4527 times)

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Dante

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John 17:2,3
« on: August 18, 2009, 08:28:45 PM »
I have not been around the boards for a while, so pardon me for not knowing what has been going on. And if I am going over really old ground, I hope you will excuse me and point me to the study on the subject of which I am about to bring up. :thumbsup:


I have been doing some word studies on my own and have found a bit of an enigma.
I understand that the "Chosen" will inherit eternal (Aionios) Life and the Non-Chosen will inherit eternal Punishment. This has been my understanding up until now. It is NOT a bad thing, it is just that God, in his infinite and Devine mercy has made it so that the NON-Chosen will have their part in the Lake of Fire and will be made RIGHT after going through it. This has been my understanding.

But after coming across John 17:2 it kind of threw me off balance.
It seems to point out that since the Son (Jesus) has been given ALL THINGS and as John 17:2 states The ALL FLESH will be given Eternal (Aionios) life and NOT Eternal (Aionos or Age abiding) Punishment (Correction).

Please read the below passages and let me know if you have any insight as to what John 17:2 is speaking of. Am I somehow “Off base” as to what it is saying??

John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL things into his hand."  (ALL THINGS are given to the Son!)

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (ALL the things given to the Son will come to him)

John 17:2 "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM." (If would seem to me that God is telling us that ALL flesh that has been given to Christ is going to have eternal (Age abiding) Life).


Now comes the REAL SHOCKER,….at least to me!!! It states in John 17:3 this little bit of information:

John 17:3  And this is life eternal (Age abiding/Aionos) that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

It would seem that God is defining EXACTLY what age abiding or Aionios life is!!!
God is saying that age abiding life IS KNOWING the only true God and his Son Jesus Christ whom he has sent! This is what Age abiding life IS!!!!

With this information in mind, it COULD BE that THIS LIFE IS the Lake of Fire and that some are having Age abiding life NOW (The Chosen)  and some will have age abiding life Later (The Non-Chosen).
Since the ONLY way I can see that God would be able to say that some will have age abiding life and some age abiding punishment, ….YET say that ALL have age abiding life is if the Lake of Fire is in the HERE AND NOW!!!!

Please give me your insight on what I have purposed.
Thank you! :cloud9:

Dante

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 08:57:59 PM »
Two questions. Two answers. No. No.
IMO "Aionios life" is for 'the elect'
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 10:31:16 PM »
Two questions. Two answers. No. No.
IMO "Aionios life" is for 'the elect'

Thank you for you answer, but I was hoping for a little more meat as to why you say no.
I understand the status quo says: Aionios life is for the elect, but if God's Word ALSO says: .....,that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM (And of course we know that all is given to Christ) and ...., life eternal that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent, Then I think we have something truly and seriously worth looking into.

If you are a UC or UR then you should KNOW, of ALL people that you NEVER take ANYTHING for granted.

We have been lied to for years about people going to a pagan hell that does NOT exist. With this in mind, we should be extremely diligent to make sure everything we believe lines up with the Word of God %100!!
Don't you agree??

In that spirit, I think that if God is saying that all that is given to him will have Aionios life,.....then I think we have A LOT to think about.
And one of those things that should be thought about, is that we MAY be in the very Lake of Fire right NOW!

This is just a theory for the time being, but if logic dictates that this idea has a good possibility of being true, then we would all regret the years of ignoring it!
Personally, I think there is a good likelihood of  it being true. I am not sure, but I am not willing to let go of this idea until I hear some strong evidence of it being false.

Peace

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2009, 12:08:09 AM »
I just answered "no no" because in your poll I couldn't select 2 answers.

Quote
I understand the status quo says: Aionios life is for the elect, but if God's Word ALSO says: .....,that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM (And of course we know that all is given to Christ) and ...., life eternal that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent, Then I think we have something truly and seriously worth looking into.
Good point. I have no answer (right now).
Remark:
The aionios doesn't seem to fit. (but being the Bible it somehow does fit)
No matter how big 'the elect' is it would greatly lessen the accomplishment from Jesus because He doesn't offer eternal life but 'just' extented life.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2009, 12:43:56 AM »
I just answered "no no" because in your poll I couldn't select 2 answers.

Quote
I understand the status quo says: Aionios life is for the elect, but if God's Word ALSO says: .....,that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM (And of course we know that all is given to Christ) and ...., life eternal that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent, Then I think we have something truly and seriously worth looking into.
Good point. I have no answer (right now).
Remark:
The aionios doesn't seem to fit. (but being the Bible it somehow does fit)
No matter how big 'the elect' is it would greatly lessen the accomplishment from Jesus because He doesn't offer eternal life but 'just' extented life.


Thanks for the clarification.

This is the way I see it (Or saw it): God gives Aionios life to the Chosen and Aionios change (Correction) to the Non-Chosen.

Now that is JUST for an AGE (Aionios). But for the rest of “Eternity” there is NO real word on that, because instead of THAT being spoken of, God tells us that we will ALL (The whole human race) Will put on IMMORTALITY. At SOME point in time anyway.

We will stand outside of time, just as God does now! In other words, time will not touch us, just as it does not touch God. So there was no reason for God to even mention eternity.

BUT,…now that this passage in John 17:2,3 has come to my attention, I am starting to think that we are NOW in the Lake of Fire, because to the Non-Chosen, this is punishment or Correction. To the Chosen this LIFE IS,….The very life of CHRIST!
I am thinking that this life and the Lake of Fire are not two different things, but the same.
It kind of makes sense if you think on it for a while. Jesus said: “It is finished”, meaning that everything that had to be done is already done. And this life is just a correction until “ONE” Turns to Christ.
I am not sure how everything else fits,…..or in fact IF everything else fits, but it is an interesting subject. That is for sure!
Think about the Tree of Life and why God had to put a fiery sword/angel around it. To get to the Tree of Life are we to go through the fire of life? And isn’t that only a representation of Christ, since all LIFE comes from Christ anyway?
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil,…who or what could it have been. Mustn’t it have been Christ himself? Since all knowledge comes from God?
These are some deep and cool questions that I am asking myself and others.
Thanks for your input!!!

Peace

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2009, 12:54:42 AM »
BUT,…now that this passage in John 17:2,3 has come to my attention, I am starting to think that we are NOW in the Lake of Fire, 
I think you soon will get a smiling reply of someone who strongly believes that.


Quote
because to the Non-Chosen, this is punishment or Correction. To the Chosen this LIFE IS,….The very life of CHRIST!
I am thinking that this life and the Lake of Fire are not two different things, but the same.
It kind of makes sense if you think on it for a while. Jesus said: "It is finished", meaning that everything that had to be done is already done. And this life is just a correction until "ONE" Turns to Christ.
Let's just say that all options are open for me on this one.
One of the main problems for me is that the timing of the Bible seems wrong.
For example. The big aim of LoF is to learn about God. But the words of God where only know to a very small group of people before Jesus. And even now many don't know it.
Is the Bible not about this life? Actually afterlife if this is LoF.
It would for example mean God created again in LoF. There was Eden in LoF.
I know some verses seem to point to LoF=now but I can't just accept that until the above and other problems are cleared up.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2009, 04:53:41 PM »
Quote
The big aim of LoF is to learn about God. But the words of God where only know to a very small group of people before Jesus. And even now many don't know it.
Is the Bible not about this life? Actually afterlife if this is LoF.
It would for example mean God created again in LoF. There was Eden in LoF.
I know some verses seem to point to LoF=now but I can't just accept that until the above and other problems are cleared up.

I am NOT saying that in the time of Adam and Eve were in the LOF, I am saying that SHORTLY after Christ' death on the Cross began the LOF. Probably around 70 AD.

But I disagree with you as to the purpose of THIS LIFE. I believe the purpose of this life is to learn the difference between GOOD AND EVIL,…Hence the TREE! And aren’t the Non-Chosen getting the chance to LEARN the difference between Good and Evil? Since it seems that the true reason for the LOF IS LEARNING Good and Evil (A Corrective measure).

Fire is on the House of God NOW!!
We are ALL salted with fire!
We know that the LOF is symbolic. It is NOT a literal fire, since that would serve NO purpose. But a spiritual fire serves a great purpose. And even the Non-Chosen are learning the difference between Good and Evil. And isn’t that the whole point of this life?? Otherwise WHY did God put the Tree in the MIDDLE of the Garden in the first place?

When the Word of God speaks of people wailing and gnashing their teeth, this is a picture of the Hebrew Children who then knew that they could have been part of the kingdom of God. Yet they ignored the teachings of Christ and choose NOT to believe them. So they will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God, which was AT HAND back when Jesus Christ was alive!!!!
The Kingdom of God is upon us right now! And MOST of Israel is NOT part of it.
So because of these facts is the reason why I question if THIS LIFE is the LOF or not.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death."

Do not Christians DIE to sin and become alive to Christ IN THIS LIFE???
The LOF would only have existed either after Jesus uttered the Words “It is finished” or shortly there after. Since the Kingdom of heaven is in each and every believer.
I am not making a concrete statement as to this life being the LOF, but only asserting that it COULD BE THE LAKE OF FIRE.

I think we really need to look into it further and that is why I would like your and others opinions and input on it!
This,…TO ME,..is especially important since John says this:

John 17:3  And this is life eternal (Age abiding/Aionos) that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

Aren’t we all learning about Good and Evil and God and Jesus Christ, IN THIS LIFE!!??

So if ANYONE has ANY opinion on this subject I would LOVE to hear it. Whether you agree or disagree with it!
Please remember that it is just a theory of mine and I am NOT saying it is for sure.
My original question had to do with John 17: 2 and 3 and how could this be being said in light of many other scriptures.

Thank you.
And Peace.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2009, 06:16:49 PM »
Quote
The big aim of LoF is to learn about God. But the words of God where only know to a very small group of people before Jesus. And even now many don't know it.
Is the Bible not about this life? Actually afterlife if this is LoF.
It would for example mean God created again in LoF. There was Eden in LoF.
I know some verses seem to point to LoF=now but I can't just accept that until the above and other problems are cleared up.
I am NOT saying that in the time of Adam and Eve were in the LOF,
Neither do I. I'm just trying to explain the LoF is now view causes problems/conflicts for me.

Quote
I am saying that SHORTLY after Christ' death on the Cross began the LOF. Probably around 70 AD.

But I disagree with you as to the purpose of THIS LIFE. I believe the purpose of this life is to learn the difference between GOOD AND EVIL,…Hence the TREE! And aren't the Non-Chosen getting the chance to LEARN the difference between Good and Evil? Since it seems that the true reason for the LOF IS LEARNING Good and Evil (A Corrective measure).
If I look at revelation I see lets call it the end-times. Many things happen. One of those things is that the sinners are resurected and kicked into LoF. I agree the reason of LoF is learning.
The problem is this. If we are in LoF right now it means we are already resurrected and judged.
I won't deny that all people truely learned about good and evil and even apply it in daily life. So far so good. But do people apply that knowledge of good and evil in the correct way?
As far back as history goes there has been war. Take the classic Hitler example. He died so his LoF lesson is over.
I'm not God but I have the impression Hitler didn't fully grasp the 'love your Jewish neighbor' concept. 1 billion people call themself Christians (but many arent't I think). The remaining 5 billion have another or no religion. Not a good score on knowing God. To me the whole LoF is a complete failure. That would mean Gods plan is a complete failure. And for that simple reason I do not believe we live in LoF.

Quote
Fire is on the House of God NOW!!
Ok. But 95% of humantity isn't part of Gods house right now.

Quote
We are ALL salted with fire!
Are or will be...?

Quote
We know that the LOF is symbolic. It is NOT a literal fire, since that would serve NO purpose. But a spiritual fire serves a great purpose.

Fully agreed.


Quote
And even the Non-Chosen are learning the difference between Good and Evil. And isn't that the whole point of this life?? Otherwise WHY did God put the Tree in the MIDDLE of the Garden in the first place?
To learn. But IMO that doesn't mean this is LoF. Another senario is that the tree is  a gentle way to learn about good and evil. Many don't attend to class. In LoF there is much less freedom to attend to class. So no; for me the tree doesn't mean we live in LoF right now.

Quote
When the Word of God speaks of people wailing and gnashing their teeth, this is a picture of the Hebrew Children who then knew that they could have been part of the kingdom of God. Yet they ignored the teachings of Christ and choose NOT to believe them. So they will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God, which was AT HAND back when Jesus Christ was alive!!!!
The Kingdom of God is upon us right now! And MOST of Israel is NOT part of it.
So because of these facts is the reason why I question if THIS LIFE is the LOF or not.

Ha! So you also question LoF is right now. I'm not sure either. But as I wrote right now I (strongly) edge toward "Not LoF right now"
The Hitler/war example is a huge stumbling block for me. I've read the rest of your post but didn't reply to it because I simply can't begin to accept it until the Hitler problem is gone. There are long threads on this subject. One things I did learn from those threads is that understanding "LoF=now" is totally beyond my level.
I'm better of playing with flowers than with trees :icon_flower:

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline chuckt

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2009, 09:42:36 PM »
everyone  is salted with fire, some now some later, those who have eionian life will not expereice the second death because they already have.

adam= first death
Christ=second death.


remember even if i am wrong if one can figure out what exactly the ""second death"" is, then they know what the LOF is.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. 
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 


great topic......


peace
chuckt

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Offline willieH

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2009, 10:10:58 PM »
willieH: Hi Dante... :hithere:

 :bigGrin: 

I think that ..."I"... am (probably) the  -- :bigGrin: -- that brother WhiteWings referred to...

At any rate, here I am!  :cloud9:  (btw my sister Cardinal, asked me to jump in here, that's how I found out!)

This will be a little long, for that I apologize, but the details must be addressed...  :blush:

I have been doing some word studies on my own and have found a bit of an enigma.
I understand that the "Chosen" will inherit eternal (Aionios) Life and the Non-Chosen will inherit eternal Punishment.

FIRST -- ANY TERM in ANY LANGUAGE which denotes ETERNAL, FOREVER, or EVERLASTING, and applies it to other than GOD (IMO) is a misapplication,  ...because we know that GOD is a being (that if you believe in Him), that you KNOW within your BELIEF, that He preceeded TIME and subsequently the Creation (and whatever, by definition, THAT realm actually IS).

In other words, we cannot "legally" utilize the terminology "EVERLASTING or ETERNAL", because we do not have the capability to grasp or comprehend such a REALM, being FINITE and bound by the limits of TIME, as well as the observations of BEGINNINGS and ENDINGS IN IT, ...which do NOT ...LIMIT Him...  :dontknow:

If we suppose to determine a FINITE being or thing to having an ETERNAL "position", then we are speaking or applying a WORD which we do not COMPREHEND, and therefore that usage is INAPPLICABLE, and INVALID.

The words AIONIOS, and its parent word AION are translated INVALIDLY as I see it, for they are used in contexts and applied to scenarios which HAD both a BEGINNING and END... Therefore, they are invalid when applied to any entity which has these two characteristics...

SECOND -- the qualifications and determinations for traversing the LOF are listed in -- Rev 21:8   -- which EASILY encompass ALL humanity.  There is no verse in Revelation that notes the "elect" will NOT have their part in the LOF, just that they will not be HURT of it  -- Rev 2:11 -- (2nd death occurs in all for ALL have their part in it, but the "ELECT" will "buy" of CHRIST, and be CLOTHED of Him -- Rev 3:18 -- the rest will not and suffer SHAME accordingly -- this is NOT a bad thing, rather a part of the ORDAINED process of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST)

This has been my understanding up until now. It is NOT a bad thing, it is just that God, in his infinite and Devine mercy has made it so that the NON-Chosen will have their part in the Lake of Fire and will be made RIGHT after going through it. This has been my understanding.

I agree in part with this perception Dante... However as I just noted, NO man shall sidestep involvement in the LOF... for it is the FIRE of GOD which consumes iniquity [sin]... which has accompanied (by HIS ORDAINATION -- Rom 11:32 ) His Children, in their experiential involvement with the single KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

I once heard these words:  "TIME is the FIRE in which we burn"... (a lot of truth in those words)

But after coming across John 17:2 it kind of threw me off balance.
It seems to point out that since the Son (Jesus) has been given ALL THINGS and as John 17:2 states The ALL FLESH will be given Eternal (Aionios) life and NOT Eternal (Aionos or Age abiding) Punishment (Correction).

Please read the below passages and let me know if you have any insight as to what John 17:2 is speaking of. Am I somehow "Off base" as to what it is saying??

John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL things into his hand."  (ALL THINGS are given to the Son!)

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (ALL the things given to the Son will come to him)

John 17:2 "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM." (If would seem to me that God is telling us that ALL flesh that has been given to Christ is going to have eternal (Age abiding) Life).

I believe simply, that "revelation" is taking place in you Dante...  :happyclap:

Now comes the REAL SHOCKER,….at least to me!!! It states in John 17:3 this little bit of information:

John 17:3  And this is life eternal (Age abiding/Aionos) that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

It would seem that God is defining EXACTLY what age abiding or Aionios life is!!!
God is saying that age abiding life IS KNOWING the only true God and his Son Jesus Christ whom he has sent! This is what Age abiding life IS!!!!

Yep!  :high5: :happyclap:

With this information in mind, it COULD BE that THIS LIFE IS the Lake of Fire and that some are having Age abiding life NOW (The Chosen)  and some will have age abiding life Later (The Non-Chosen).

As I see it, the "age abiding" thing has to do with this realm... and an "age" can be "limitless" TIME.. or it can be a MOMENT.  The ANGER [wrath] of GOD is said to be a "moment" in duration -- Psalm 30:5 --  A moment can be short or long depending upon ones perspective... for instance ONE SECOND is quite a SHORT period of TIME when amidst a 100 meter race, however... Let us say that ones HAND is set upon a stove burner on HIGH, ...THAT perspective of the "length" of ONE SECOND is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT perception - eh?  :dontknow:

Since the ONLY way I can see that God would be able to say that some will have age abiding life and some age abiding punishment, ….YET say that ALL have age abiding life is if the Lake of Fire is in the HERE AND NOW!!!!

Please give me your insight on what I have purposed.
Thank you! :cloud9:

Dante

IMO, ...It could be considered a type of "punishment" -- to NOT ...KNOW God! 

He witholds Himself (according to His PURPOSE) from many (most), ...yet here we are, ...YOU and I have NOT had that "withholding",  ...rather have come to experience the WONDER of Him NOW,  ...not to mention UNTOLD WONDER of Him to come?  :bgdance:  And You and I can NOW REJOICE for those who yet are VEILED of Him, and which shall one day, come to KNOW the JOY of "knowing" Him!!  :egyptdance: :boogie: :myahoo:

To KNOW Him is JOY, is it not?  So to NOT KNOW Him, ...is therefore, NOT JOY - eh?  :dontknow:

To have Him (and His Holiness revealed to one while yet in SIN) is an extreme blessing as I see it... I have pity for those who are Athiest, or that do not (yet) see their Savior, and consider it a HIGH JOY that I have been allowed, as a SINNER to KNOW Him, and the WONDER of His presence!  And to partake NOW of the JOY which IS, and IS to COME for ALL!

:Peace: ...Dante!

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PM »
willieH, chuckt and WhiteWings, I want to thank you all for your great thought out answers to the question that has puzzled me. And if you have any more insight to this question I would LOVE :HeartThrob: to hear it!!!

But I have to point this question and statement towards willieH, since he has brought up some seriously in depth and unorthodox ways of thinking that may in fact be totally correct,…..IMHO!

First off willieH, I have to say that you knocked my socks off!!!
In what you first pointed out about Aion and Aionios, I already knew. Aion really means an age or a period of time that is undisclosed. I only wrote “eternal” because that is what the MIS-Translators wrote. But I know that it is NOT eternal. But I thank you for pointing it out to me anyway, just in case I did not know it.

I have ONE issue that I disagree with you on and that is when you state: “As I see it, the "age abiding" thing has to do with this realm... and an "age" can be "limitless" TIME.. or it can be a MOMENT.”

The reason being is because I believe the Word of God PROVES that an Aion cannot be timeless or limitless. Here are some examples from L. Ray Smith:

BEFORE the aions:
I Cor. 2:7--
... before the eons ...
... before the ages...
God MAKES the aions
Heb. 1:2--
... makes the eons.
... made the ages.
PAST aions:
Col. 1:26--
... hid from eons...
... from the ages ...
PRESENT aion:
Gal. 1:4---
... the present wicked eon ...
... present age ... an evil one
END of present aion:
Mat. 24:3--
... conclusion of the eon ...
... conclusion of the age...
The NEXT aion:
Lk. 18;30--
... the eon to come ...
... age that is coming ...
FUTURE aions:
Eph. 2:7--
... the oncoming eons ...
... ages that should come ...
CONTRASTING aions:
Eph. 3:21--
... the eon of the eons...
... age of the ages ...
ENDS of the aions:
I Cor.10:11-
... the consummations of the eons ...
... the ends of the ages ...

So to me, this proves that an Aion cannot be limitless. It always has an end and always has a beginning. It was a little puzzling since you SEEMED to make it clear that you thought that an Aion had a beginning and an end at another point of you writing. Maybe I just misunderstood some of what you said.  :mblush:
Anyway, on to what you said that I think is VERY, VERY thought provoking!
First off I have Got to say that "TIME is the FIRE in which we burn" is one of the most Brilliant group of words that I have ever heard!!!!! :thumbsup:
IT makes SO much sense!!!!

You make a reference to time being long for one person and short for another. And I understand what you say. As the man with his hand on a stove and a man hugging his child, TIME is a totally different experience for each.

The next interesting thing you bring up is that Punishment is: NOT KNOWING GOD!
That would make sense if we are saying that THIS is the lake of fire, since GOD’S definition of Aionios life is Knowing God :gangel:, it SHOULD be logical that  NOT KNOWING GOD is Aionios punishment. :sigh:

OK,…..so I am with you up until this point. But WHY does God state that he gives Aionios life to Chosen and Aionios correction to Non-Chosen and THEN mentions that he gives Aionios life to ALL that have been given to him?? Which is THE ALL anyway.
It seems kind of a messy way to explain things don’t you think?

Ok, so IF I am understanding you correctly, and if this life is the LOF. We are either chosen to believe or not to believe. Once this is done, we die.
Now what happens??
Is it just our FLESH that is keeping us back from being perfect? When will the “ALL” have their Aionios life?? Will it be after they die? I thought we are to put on immortality after death, which would SEEM to rule out any Aionios life. Because why would the NON believer need an Aionios life if once they died they had put on immortality?


********OH!!!! But that is right,….Aionios life is Believing in God and Jesus Christ, so even if it were AFTER death it COULD be considered Aionios life!!! :bgdance:**********


So that once we die, even the NON Chosen will fall right in line with God because their FLESH is gone?
Everyone’s sins are paid for through Jesus Christ. There is NO NEED for any more of that.
So is that IT!!??

IF SO,….I SAY COOL BEANS!!! :bigGrin:

I would be amazed if that were the way it was. I could never figure out why God would punish anyone for NOT believing when he is the one who made someone believe or NOT believe in the first place.
Man may devise but God directs his steps,…and I have chosen you and NOT you have chosen me. No man seeks after God,…NO NOT ONE!!
But being on this planet and having to play the part of the “GOOD GUY” or the “BAD GUY” is just a role given to us by God. And once all is said and done, we will ALL be with God and he will be ALL IN ALL!!
I think I have my loose strings almost all tied up!!
LOL!
If you, or anyone else, thinks I am “Off Base” on what I have said, please let me in on it!!
Thank you all.
And thank you willeH!

Dante


Please keep more information coming if you wish!

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2009, 12:13:37 AM »
Just one more note.
I understand that if this IS the LOF (Even if it isn't), that NO MAN can side step the LOF. We ALL will be salted. Or have SOME part in it.
And this life benefits ALL! For the fire of God burns off iniquity. In fact the Word of God says that a man is saved AS BY FIRE!!!!!
And since there is NO other way of salvation,.......the fire in the Lake IS JESUS CHRIST and is a nessesary part of Salvation for ALL!

I just didn't want there to be any misunderstanding.

Peace to all.
God love you!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2009, 12:34:16 AM »
Just one more note.
I understand that if this IS the LOF (Even if it isn't), that NO MAN can side step the LOF. We ALL will be salted. Or have SOME part in it.
Yep. And "salt is good"
Mark 9:49-50  For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Quote
And since there is NO other way of salvation,.......
the fire in the Lake IS JESUS CHRIST and is a nessesary part of Salvation for ALL![/quote]
I don't agree with that. I think Father is LoF.
Hebrews 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire
And many other verses say so.

Revelation 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

Malachi 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2009, 04:44:11 PM »
Just one more note.
I understand that if this IS the LOF (Even if it isn't), that NO MAN can side step the LOF. We ALL will be salted. Or have SOME part in it.
Yep. And "salt is good"
Mark 9:49-50  For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Quote
And since there is NO other way of salvation,.......
the fire in the Lake IS JESUS CHRIST and is a nessesary part of Salvation for ALL!
I don't agree with that. I think Father is LoF.
Hebrews 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire
And many other verses say so.

Revelation 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

Malachi 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

 :2c:
[/quote]


So what have we learned from all this??
Salt and Fire are GOOD!!
Correct!??

WhiteWings,...You say that the Lake of Fire is the Father, but I say it is Jesus Christ.
The reason why I say it is Jesus Christ is that there is NO NAME under which a person can be saved other than Jesus Christ.
This SEEMS to point out the fact that you MUST go through the SON to get to the Father.
What do you say? Correct or do you have scripture to say that it is otherwise?

I know the Word of God states that our God is a consuming Fire, and I TOTALLY AGREE with that. That is why I say that Jesus Christ is the LOF.
But I think what we are talking now is semantics don't you?
Whether it is the Father or the Son, it is a GOOD thing and will make the unbeliever become “OF GOD”, in the end.

But what I really want to know, is when Is the LOF???
Is it in the here and now, or later on.
I AM TENDING to lean toward the here and now, since it would seem that the “Christian” or “Chosen” are living in the spirit now and knowing God the Father and God the Son NOW! And the UNBELIEVER is being punished, corrected or tormented in the here and now for NOT knowing God.

I don’t know, I have YET to find definitive proof in the Word of God to point out that this life is the LOF beyond a reasonable doubt.

If it is there I will try to find it.

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2009, 04:55:35 PM »
everyone  is salted with fire, some now some later, those who have eionian life will not expereice the second death because they already have.

As was said: Everyone will be salted with fire, but that does not mean that we will not have part of the second death, it just means that the second death will not hurt us.

adam= first death
Christ=second death.


remember even if i am wrong if one can figure out what exactly the ""second death"" is, then they know what the LOF is.

Right, but if the second death and the LOF are the same thing, As you have implied, then the LOF has got to be Jesus Christ, since he is the only one handing out Salvation!!!


Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. 
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 

Right so the Chosen have already DIED TO SIN, and become alive to Christ!
This means that the second death will have no power over him because he has already died to sin. The NON-Chosen will be hurt by the second death because the pain and stinging of the second death will come from fighting God's TRUTH!



great topic......


peace
chuckt

Thank you Chuckt,...God Bless!!
PS. GREAT BABY PICTURE!!!!!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2009, 04:56:19 PM »
 :cloud9: My take on that is that if He makes His ministers to be a flame of fire (we are all His ministers of righteousness), then if you get a whole bunch of flames together, just like if you get a whole bunch of rain drops together.........you have a 'lake' of fire. Interesting that the word lake is translated HAVEN, also. So I think that Christ is the lake of fire. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2009, 05:26:50 PM »
So what have we learned from all this??
Salt and Fire are GOOD!!
Correct!??
100%

Quote
WhiteWings,...You say that the Lake of Fire is the Father, but I say it is Jesus Christ.
The reason why I say it is Jesus Christ is that there is NO NAME under which a person can be saved other than Jesus Christ.
This SEEMS to point out the fact that you MUST go through the SON to get to the Father.
What do you say? Correct or do you have scripture to say that it is otherwise?

I know the Word of God states that our God is a consuming Fire, and I TOTALLY AGREE with that. That is why I say that Jesus Christ is the LOF.
But I think what we are talking now is semantics don't you?
Whether it is the Father or the Son, it is a GOOD thing and will make the unbeliever become "OF GOD", in the end.
So far we agree on: God is a consuming fire + All come trough the Son + Salt/fire is good + it's semantics
The reason I (still) believe God is the fire because the verses always link Father to fire.
Plus Jesus and the angels are watching the sinners being purified in LoF. So for me that means they (Son + angels) are watching. Testing to be more precise. Father does the laundry and Son checks if it's clean.
Now about the way to Father is though Jesus. Let me start with saying I'm in no way trying to lessen the importance of Jesus. Just assume we have stains on our eyes that blind us. We don't seen Jesus. So we don't find Him. So we don't come to Him. But God starts washing teh dirt out of your eyes. Then we see Jesus. And by that enter heaven through Jesus. Not the most poetic discripion but I hope/think you understand my reasoning.



Quote
But what I really want to know, is when Is the LOF???
Is it in the here and now, or later on.

I only can say I think it's later on; for the reasons I stated earlier.
But I'm not ruling out your view yet. I can only add that if this is my hell it is a really tiny light-weight cross I have to carry.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2009, 05:33:54 PM »
:cloud9: My take on that is that if He makes His ministers to be a flame of fire (we are all His ministers of righteousness), then if you get a whole bunch of flames together, just like if you get a whole bunch of rain drops together.........you have a 'lake' of fire. Interesting that the word lake is translated HAVEN, also. So I think that Christ is the lake of fire. Blessings.....

Rose! Cardinal stole your example  :laughing7:

Quote
Interesting that the word lake is translated HAVEN
In Dutch we still use that word. (haven=harbor/port)
The weird thing about that conclusion is that the harbor is safe part of the sea.
That would imply the saints are on the dangerous ocean/sea and teh sinners in the security of the port...???
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2009, 05:45:13 PM »
Quote from: ww
That would imply the saints are on the dangerous ocean/sea and teh sinners in the security of the port...???

haha Do you think he would send a boy to do a man's job?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2009, 05:47:45 PM »
I do think I don't understand your answer. :happy3:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2009, 05:50:30 PM »
:cloud9: My take on that is that if He makes His ministers to be a flame of fire (we are all His ministers of righteousness), then if you get a whole bunch of flames together, just like if you get a whole bunch of rain drops together.........you have a 'lake' of fire. Interesting that the word lake is translated HAVEN, also. So I think that Christ is the lake of fire. Blessings.....

Rose! Cardinal stole your example  :laughing7:

Quote
Interesting that the word lake is translated HAVEN
In Dutch we still use that word. (haven=harbor/port)
The weird thing about that conclusion is that the harbor is safe part of the sea.
That would imply the saints are on the dangerous ocean/sea and teh sinners in the security of the port...???


 :cloud9: That's what I get for only reading the last 3 or 4 posts. But rose and I have the same teacher, so it's bound to happen anyway.  :winkgrin: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2009, 05:54:10 PM »
I do think I don't understand your answer. :happy3:

You have to stay in the port until you are able to sail the open sea...



22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

 23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

--Ga 3


"kept" [under the law]

G5432
φρουρέω
phroureō
froo-reh'-o
From a compound of G4253 and G3708; to be a watcher in advance, that is, to mount guard as a sentinel (post spies at gates); figuratively to hem in, protect: - keep (with a garrison). Compare G5083.


"shut up"

G4788
συγκλείω
sugkleiō
soong-kli'-o
From G4862 and G2808; to shut together, that is, include or (figuratively) embrace in a common subjection to: - conclude, inclose, shut up.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 06:05:57 PM by Molly »

Dante

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2009, 06:21:04 PM »
The one stumbling block I think everyone has and I kind of have is that we kind of think of the LOF as a purifying entity (Which it is) that will strip us of our ungodliness.
In other words,..it makes us perfect,...BUT God says that he looks at us as if we are Christ.
So we Chosen are looked at by the Father as Christ anyway, and the ONLY thing making us NOT act as Christ is our FLESH!! :msealed:
Any objections to this!????

But the question remains: "What about the Non-Chosen?
Does THIS LIFE give enough to the Non-Chosen to make them clean from their sins?
Does this life Strip the sin from within their hearts??
The answer to me is: "I don't think it does!"  :thumbdown: BUT,..I also don't think it matters,..because that is NOT the purpose of THIS LIFE. :thumbsup: The purpose of this life is to learn Good from Evil.
And I think this life does a GREAT JOB of that!!
Don't you agree!???

But now we still have a problem of this life being the LOF. If this life does NOT strip the sin from the hearts of the Non-Chosen,.....what does????

I think I have the answer: Jesus does!!!!
It took Jesus about Three seconds to CHANGE Paul (Formerly Saul) the self proclaimed "Chief of all Sinners"!!!! So it would not seem a needful thing to have some LONG drawn out procedure to make a sinner into a saint!!

Ok,…so here we have my conclusion (But with not much hard evidence YET!).
After the generation of Christ (Around 70 AD) this world was the Lake of Fire. Since all prophecy had to happen in THAT generation just like Jesus said.
The Chosen are going through the LOF learning and teaching and helping, but no harm is coming to us.
The Non-Chosen are going through the LOF (This life) and are being hurt by it. Some turn to God and some do NOT.
{But the important part is that we are ALL learning Good from Evil}
Now all die and God STRIPS THE SIN from the Non-Chosen and we all bow and kneel before God.
End of story,….Kind of.
What we do from there is anyone’s guess.  :dontknow:
But does anyone see ANY scripture that would conflict with this kind of idea!??

And if so, I would LOVE it if they would point it out.

Thank you all.

Peace
Dante

Offline rosered

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2009, 06:37:34 PM »
:cloud9: My take on that is that if He makes His ministers to be a flame of fire (we are all His ministers of righteousness), then if you get a whole bunch of flames together, just like if you get a whole bunch of rain drops together.........you have a 'lake' of fire. Interesting that the word lake is translated HAVEN, also. So I think that Christ is the lake of fire. Blessings.....

Rose! Cardinal stole your example  :laughing7:

Quote
Interesting that the word lake is translated HAVEN
In Dutch we still use that word. (haven=harbor/port)
The weird thing about that conclusion is that the harbor is safe part of the sea.
That would imply the saints are on the dangerous ocean/sea and teh sinners in the security of the port...???

:thumbsup:    true sis! :cloud9:
 
  Dante you are very clear I am hearin ya and all on this very intersting thread

  ps ,WW and I have talked about this LOF before in pvt..  hee hee  :icon_flower:

 :cloud9: That's what I get for only reading the last 3 or 4 posts. But rose and I have the same teacher, so it's bound to happen anyway.  :winkgrin: Blessings....

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: John 17:2,3
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2009, 06:46:51 PM »
After the generation of Christ (Around 70 AD) this world was the Lake of Fire. Since all prophecy had to happen in THAT generation just like Jesus said.

In Revelation I read that people are cast into LoF after judgement. After being resurected.
That would mean we already died. Assuming there is a relation between sins and the severity of LoF people that have  a bad life (hunger, poor, sick) where the greatest sinners.
But almost none die purified....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...