Author Topic: is there a greek word for "eternity"  (Read 8608 times)

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Offline shawn

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2012, 10:40:06 PM »
Ded I'm saying the exact opposite.  Eternal doesn't have to mean without beginning or end.  It can mean that but doesn't always mean that.

Offline Jeremias

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2012, 10:40:43 PM »

What "our definition of aionios" is of no concern, but what the Bible has accurately established. At Matthew 25, Jesus said concerning those who did not assist his "brothers": "'Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.' And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off ("everlasting cutting-off ", Greek kolasin aionion), but the righteous ones into everlasting life."("everlasting life", Greek zoe aionion, Matt 25:45, 46)

Jesus contrasts those who failed in their assisting Jesus "brothers" ( those chosen by Jehovah God (2 Thess 2:13) who, along with him, make up the "kingdom of God"), with "the righteous ones" who are granted "everlasting life", those who assisted Jesus "brothers" at Matthew 25:40. Just as life contrasts with death, light with dark, so both receive something that is "everlasting", a permanent "cutting-off " from life for both "the Devil and his angels" and those who lifted no hand of help towards Jesus "brothers" and those who provided both material and spiritual help to Jesus "brothers", giving them "everlasting life".

The Greek interlinear, The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, reads at Matthew 25:46: "And shall go away these into a cutting-off (ko´la·sin) agelasting; the and just ones into life everlasting." Thus, those that God deems as unworthy of life everlasting, are then "cut-off " from life, receiving everlasting death.

The Emphatic Diaglott footnote for this verse reads: "That is, in the fire mentioned in verse 41. The Common Version (King James Bible), and in many modern ones, render kolasin aionioon, everlasting punishment, conveying the idea, as generally interpreted, of basimos, torment. Kolasin in its various forms only occurs in three other places in the New Testament - Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9; 1 John 4:18. It is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. The Greeks write - "The charioteer (kalazei) restrains his fiery steeds". 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment; - hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word....The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death."(italics theirs)

I agree.  Let's look at what the bible has accurately established.

From the EU Forum:

Quote from: dirtboy
If I were going to translate the "eternal" passages in the scriptures concerning the duration of hell, what would I do?  What would be my methodology?  First, when translating scripture, I understand that scripture needs to agree with other scripture.  If I come across a word that could be translated one of two ways and one way makes it contradict scripture while the other one fits harmoniously, it would be my duty to translate the passage according to the rules of grammar and in accordance with the harmony of scripture.  For example, grammar allows John 1:1 to be translated "a god", but context does not (non trinitarians will disagree, but that is not the point of this post.  You can come up with your own example - I think you understand the point).   Both must be taken into account when translating the Greek and Hebrew scriptures.

When we come to the word "aionios" there can be no doubt that it can be translated in both an "eternal" and "non-eternal" (see Romans 16:25; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2)sense.  Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words affirms this (as well as many other legitimate conservative sources, such as my NASB bible), but emphasizes that the vast majority of times in scripture it means "eternal".  Aionios can be a complicated word, but for sake of simplicity, let's say we would use "eternal" for the one side, and "lasting" [for an age] for the other side (or "pertaining to an age" but we'll use "lasting" for simplicity).  There is another reason we are given to translate it as "eternal".  We are told that since, in Matthew 25:46, when Jesus is talking about the sheep's and the goats, he ascribes aionios life to the sheep's and aionios punishment to the goats.  It is argued that these are parallel and therefore they must use the same definition.  Since we know that heaven is eternal, then the meanings must be the same in both phrases.  Is this the case?  Would translating it "eternal" contradict scripture?  It is my firm conviction that translating "aionios" as eternal in this and other such passages of scripture directly contradicts what God has consistently revealed about himself in the testimony of the rest of scripture.

It is clear from scripture that the heart of God desires to save mankind.  Whether or not you agree with universal reconciliation, the scriptures declare God's desires clearly:  His love is so intense and powerful that he sent his only son to die for "God so loved the world".   The scripture goes further to say that it is in his heart's desire that ALL men be saved:

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

So God deeply loves and desires to save all of his creatures, though that is not yet a promise that His will will succeed.  God reveals himself in the Old Testament (and new) to be a person who does NOT punish eternally.  This is repeatedly revealed in numerous ways.  As you read through the Old Testament, a pattern, or theme develop about God and punishment of sin.  It angers and disgusts him and he punishes it.  But he always stops.  His anger has an end.  When God was punishing David for the census in 2 Samuel 24, he stopped at 70,000 dead and relented.  It specifies that.  When Jonah was faced with preaching to the Ninevites, he said to God,

"That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity"

Is this true?  Is he a God who relents?  The scriptures affirm it here and in several other places quite clearly that God's punishment never lasts forever.   This is not just my opinion for the scripture bears it out specifically here in Jonah and in other places such as:

Joel 2:13 -  Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.

This is a characteristic of God, not merely a rare action.  I then sought out situations that would refute this but found only more supporting texts.  Going through the book of Jeremiah, God is very vocal about his anger at Israel's sin.  His punishment is severe.  I found several interesting verses about His punishment of them:

Jeremiah 7:20 20"This is what the Almighty LORD says: My anger and fury will be poured out on this place, on humans and animals, and on trees and crops. My anger and fury will burn and not be put out.

Jeremiah 13
14Then I will smash them like bottles against each other. I will smash parents and children together, declares the LORD. I will have no pity, mercy, or compassion when I destroy them.' "

Jeremiah 15
5No one will take pity on you, Jerusalem. No one will mourn for you. No one will bother to ask how you are doing. 6You have left me," declares the LORD. "You have turned your back on me. So I will use my power against you and destroy you.   I'm tired of showing compassion to you.

Jeremiah 17
4You will lose the inheritance that I gave you. I will make you serve your enemies in a land that you haven't heard of. I will do this because you have stirred up the fire of my anger.
It will burn forever.


So there is was - I found the evidence that God's punishment IS permanent and forever.  There were several statements that gave the impression that God's punishment would not end.  It seemed to contradict what I had originally thought about God's punishment.  God said it would be forever.   But wait!  Then came the clincher.  The first one was right after Jeremiah 17 where God said it would "burn forever":

Jeremiah 18
7"At one time I may threaten to tear up, break down, and destroy a nation or a kingdom. 8But suppose the nation that I threatened turns away from doing wrong. Then I will change my plans about the disaster I planned to do to it.

So even after God decides "forever" and proclaims it, His mind can still change.  And then several chapters later the very famous passage in Jeremiah 29:

Jeremiah 29 -
10This is what the LORD says: When Babylon's 70 years are over, I will come to you. I will keep my promise to you and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. 12'Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. 14'I will be found by you,' declares the LORD, 'and I will restore your fortunes and will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you,' declares the LORD, 'and I will bring you back to the place from where I sent you into exile.'


Even when God made straightforward, unequivocal, seemingly irreversible statements about punishment, he would in fact change his mind because of his compassion because that's the way he is (or the Hebrew "olam" is being mistranslated).  God does NOT punish or remain angry forever!  Look:

Jeremiah 3:4,5 "Have you not just now called to Me, My Father, You are the friend of my youth?  Will He be angry forever?  Will He be indignant to the end?'  Return, faithless Israel,' declares the LORD; I will not look upon you in anger.  For I am gracious,' declares the LORD; 'I will not be angry forever."

Psalms 30:55 For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime";

Psalms 103:9  He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever."

When he said that his anger "would burn forever" in Jeremiah, it was actually seventy years that it lasted for, not eternity.  Eternity, it seems in this case, is seventy years. 

When we get to the New Testament and Jesus supposedly said that God's punishment was going to be "forever", this would be the first time God ever said that punishment would be "forever" and meant it, and it contradicts scripture about "not being angry forever"; "being a God who relents", etc.  He did so a few times in Jeremiah, but did not mean it (it makes you wonder if they translated "olam" correctly when he said his fire would burn forever when he meant for only seventy years?).  He plainly does NOT punish forever and if that is what Jesus was saying, it would be a HUGE non- sequitur because it does not follow how God punishes in the rest of scripture. 

God does not mention eternal hell in Genesis at the beginning or after Adam and Eve's sin; or at the giving of the law and the various punishments and consequences of disobedience throughout the Old Testament.  God details punishment quite a bit in the O.T. but he never tells his people that his punishment for sin is eternal punishment.  Instead he continuously presents himself as someone who is patient, forgiving, and, after punishing sin, he wants to reconcile.  He is one who relents concerning punishment.  He is portrayed as someone whose loving-kindness lasts forever and whose anger is for only a short time, not the other way around.  Love, it is said, never fails.  He asks us to continue to forgive again and again, and he asks us to love our enemies, NOT just our enemies who become Christians.  Then, all of the sudden, we are to believe that God stops forgiving and punishes forever, for the first time in scripture opposed to dozens and dozens of scriptures to the contrary.  In other words, there is NO larger context in which we can determine that God punishes endlessly and eternally.  It simply is not there no matter where you look. 

Therefore, when I come to "aionios", I see how God deals with his wrath throughout scripture, I understand that God is not one who is angry forever and he is one who relents concerning wrath and punishment.  I would be foolish and wrong to say, "It must mean eternal" because that is not how God has revealed himself in the scriptures.  To say that hell is eternal contradicts scripture as a whole and I challenge anyone to find a scripture outside of "aionios" that indicates that God's punishment of sin is eternal.  I've not yet found any such scripture or scriptural principle though I've found the opposite again and again!  I simply cannot fathom how this can have been missed because the scripture are so consistently and repetitively clear throughout.  Therefore, the argument that aionios has to be translated "eternal" because it is a parallel in the sheep and goats simply holds no water.

Offline shawn

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2012, 10:42:59 PM »
a : having infinite duration : everlasting <eternal damnation>
b : of or relating to eternity
c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? — Mark 10:17(Revised Standard Version)>
2
a : continued without intermission : perpetual <an eternal flame>
b : seemingly endless <eternal delays>
3
archaic : infernal <some eternal villain … devised this slander — Shakespeare>

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2012, 10:50:37 PM »
Sorry, Shawn, misunderstood you. What I was trying to say was that unless the word is used specifically in reference to God, it does not and cannot mean never ending or without end.
For God alone is eternal - without beginning or end - outside of time itself - neverending.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline CHB

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2012, 11:02:33 PM »
Ded I'm saying the exact opposite.  Eternal doesn't have to mean without beginning or end.  It can mean that but doesn't always mean that.

I think Eternal does mean without a beginning or end but aion does not. Eternal, everlasting, forever, all mean without a beginning or end.

CHB

Offline shawn

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2012, 11:04:07 PM »
Sorry, Shawn, misunderstood you. What I was trying to say was that unless the word is used specifically in reference to God, it does not and cannot mean never ending or without end.
For God alone is eternal - without beginning or end - outside of time itself - neverending.

Ahh gotcha.

Offline shawn

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2012, 11:04:50 PM »
Ded I'm saying the exact opposite.  Eternal doesn't have to mean without beginning or end.  It can mean that but doesn't always mean that.

I think Eternal does mean without a beginning or end but aion does not. Eternal, everlasting, forever, all mean without a beginning or end.

CHB

It can but doesn't always.

Offline CHB

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2012, 11:14:41 PM »
Ded I'm saying the exact opposite.  Eternal doesn't have to mean without beginning or end.  It can mean that but doesn't always mean that.

I think Eternal does mean without a beginning or end but aion does not. Eternal, everlasting, forever, all mean without a beginning or end.

My understanding is, the words eternal, forever, everlasting were used instead of the words aion aionios, olam. The greek word aion or olam should never be translated as forever, everlasting, or eternal. The word forever should be used only as a figure of speech. "It took me forever to do that". Or I waited in line forever".

CHB

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2012, 11:17:05 PM »
I'm wit you CHB  :thumbsup:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline sheila

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2012, 11:35:30 PM »
 I said before....it serves no purpose to say God's wrath is not wrath with the et'ers....His spirit

   apply's curses/wrath to appropriate receivers..satan and evil spirits...and mercy to man/kingdom.......

   as each man has bore the corrupt image..so,too..each shall bear the incorruptible.

   are there men appointed to serve as ' example's' of the twice dead? yes   JUDE 1;7......

   THEY SERVE AS AN" EXAMPLE" OF THOSE WHO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE[prepared

  for the devil ]   thus 'ignoble' use.

    in the very same way......as demons...these  dreamers pollute their own bodies...reject authority..and

 slander celestial beings[angels? holy spirits? sspirits of just men made perfect? Blasphemy against

  holy spirit?]  Slander =blasphemy........BUT EVEN WHEN MICHAEL WAS DISPUTING WITH THE DEVIL

  ABOUT THE BODY OF MOSES..HE DARED NOT BRING A SLANDEROUS ACCUSATION AGAINST HIM

  BUT SAID..'THE LORD REBUKE YOU"

  Rev 12'7  and there was war in heaven,Michael and his angels fought against the dragon...

 and the dragon and his angels fought back...But he was not strong enough..and they lost their place

  in heaven....

    THEN I HEARD A LOUD VOICE....NOW HAVE COME THE SALVATION AND POWER AND KINGDOM

 OF OUR GOD.........FOR...THE..ACCUSOR..OF  OUR BROTHERS...WHO ACCUSE THEM..DAY..

  AND NIGHT HAS BEEN HURLED DOWN.[THERE YOU HAVE THE SLANDERER/THE BLASPHEMER

  THAT SINS AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT..........................IT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE ADVERSARY...

  THE ANTI-CHRIST SPIRIT..THE SLANDERERS SPIRIT..THE BLASPHEMER OF WHAT IS HOLY SPIRIT]

   NOW..YOU CAN'T SEE THIS SPIRIT...EXCEPT THAT IT BE MANIFEST IN MEN THAT ARE BEARING

  THE CORRUPT IMAGE...THUS jUDE CH 1

   THE TRUE IDENTITY OF THE MAN OF SIN/LAWLESSNESS IS TO BE REVEALED......WE KNOW IT

  LIKE THIS...DRAGON WHEN OPERATING ON ANGELS IN HEAVEN..SERPENT IN THE GARDEN.....

  BEAST WHEN RULING OVER KINGDOMS OF EARTH,SATAN WHEN IT ENTERED JUDAS...

  MAN OF SIN/SON OF PERDITION  THAT IS DONE AWAY WITH AT THE BREATH OF HIS COMING

  THIS CORRUPT BODY OF DEATH WE NEED BE SAVED FROM[SIN IN FLESH]
 

     

Offline jabcat

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2012, 11:49:24 PM »
I said before....it serves no purpose to say God's wrath is not wrath with the et'ers..     

sheila, earlier today I was driving along and for some reason thought of God's "wrath".  I grew up in hell-fire brimstone, and it's still a little hard for me to see God's love and mercy as complete and all-encompassing as it really is [I'm not saying there's no discipline or correction, I believe there is, but not that it's retribution, but love.  A love and way that we mostly just can't grasp IMO].  The thought went through my head today about having heard in the past that God's wrath is different in the originals than our Dark Ages and Western mindset have come to see it as.  Oh yeah, I was humming the song that says about the crucifixion, "the wrath of God was satisfied".  I was like "what was God mad about"?  I remembered hearing the description of God's wrath as being His passion, a stronger desire and intent than we can even imagine - rather than just somehow He has just got to "get us".   :2c:
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 12:06:19 AM by jabcat »

Offline lomarah

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2012, 12:08:33 AM »
Good stuff!!
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline sheila

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2012, 12:12:44 AM »
  O YES,JC He is passionate in His LOVE FOR MANKIND...HE IS JEALOUS IN HIS LOVE TO PROTECT

  AND SAVE.   does the 'tool' lift itself up against He who wields it?......

    when the stones of the temple and it's timbers are brought togather for assembly...there is no

  sound of a tool or axe[tool to the firepit]

   no weapon formed against you shall suceed.......

    His wrath is against the kingdom of darkness...whose works are wicked...He come to save man

  and deliver him from the wicked one[pray this way...deliver us from evil]

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2012, 12:19:31 AM »
Back to the original question of "is there a greek word for eternity"
Apparently not - at least not exactly. Here are what scholars say:

Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46). Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).
Hasting's Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting—nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370)
Jeremy Taylor, a world famous Protestant hell-fire advocate wavers, and after his ebullient flashes of Systematic Hellology, he is constrained to the following modification in Jeremy Taylor's Works (vol. 3, p. 43): "Though the fire is everlasting, not all that enters it is everlasting," then adds, "The word everlasting signifies only to the end of its period." Would that other hell-fire advocates were so honest.
The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693): ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as "forever," means in itself no more than 'for an indefinitely long period." Thus me olam does not mean "from eternity" but "of old" Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam. (Note: even the Catholic translators of The Jerusalem Bible and The New American Bible have failed to heed the scholarship of their own Catholic authorities.)
Saint Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastema, "an eonian interval." How many intervals do you know of that are "endless" or "eternal?"
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline lomarah

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2012, 12:31:40 AM »
  O YES,JC He is passionate in His LOVE FOR MANKIND...HE IS JEALOUS IN HIS LOVE TO PROTECT

  AND SAVE.   does the 'tool' lift itself up against He who wields it?......

    when the stones of the temple and it's timbers are brought togather for assembly...there is no

  sound of a tool or axe[tool to the firepit]

   no weapon formed against you shall suceed.......

    His wrath is against the kingdom of darkness...whose works are wicked...He come to save man

  and deliver him from the wicked one[pray this way...deliver us from evil]
:thumbsup:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline shawn

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2012, 01:01:36 AM »
Ded I'm saying the exact opposite.  Eternal doesn't have to mean without beginning or end.  It can mean that but doesn't always mean that.

I think Eternal does mean without a beginning or end but aion does not. Eternal, everlasting, forever, all mean without a beginning or end.

My understanding is, the words eternal, forever, everlasting were used instead of the words aion aionios, olam. The greek word aion or olam should never be translated as forever, everlasting, or eternal. The word forever should be used only as a figure of speech. "It took me forever to do that". Or I waited in line forever".

CHB

You can look up the word eternal in any English dictionary to say otherwise.  I'm not speaking about the Hebrew or the Greek...or even the context...just pure English definitions. 

Offline shawn

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2012, 01:05:27 AM »
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/otkillergod.htm

Good link about wrath.  I don't agree with everything in this link, because I do believe God punishes in a corrective nature but good stuff none the less.  Here is a good excerpt...

The first problem we must address is that the translators have taken great license with the translation of various words in the Bible. "Wrath" and "anger" are no exceptions.


In the New Testament, two Greek words are both translated "wrath." They are orge (#3709 in Strong's Concordance) which means desire, or violent passion and thumos (#2372) which means passion, breathing hard, or fury.


The translations in the Old Testament are much more varied. Each number on the right in the list below is for a different Hebrew word. But they ALL are translated "wrath." The Hebrew language is very precise. Each word has a specifically different meaning. This shows that the translators arbitrarily chose to translate all of these different words as "wrath." But they do NOT all mean wrath


The Hebrew word aph (#639) means rapid breathing in passion.


Chemah (#2534) is defined as hot with passion


Ebrah (#5678) means outburst of passion


Qetseph (#7110) means, literally, a splinter or "chipped off". Freely translated it means to be displeased, to fret or possibly to burst out.


Kaac (#3707) - to be grieved or sorrowful, to be troubled.


All these words have specific meanings which denote a passionate displeasure or a sorrowful troubled spirit, yet they are ALL translated "wrath." This, of course, makes God appear violent, frightening and vengeful, apparently the way the translators chose to present God to the world, a "ferocious" God that agrees with their own theology. A more accurate translation is that God is passionately sorrowful or troubled.



God, Himself, Defines His "Wrath."


Human beings define wrath as "intense anger, rage fury, vengeance" according to Webster's New World Dictionary. But God defines His wrath in a totally different way.


Look at Romans 1:18: "For the wrath (Greek word orge) of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold (suppress) the truth in unrighteousness." Then verses 24, 26 and 28 tell us how God demonstrates His wrath:


Verse 24: "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves."


Verse 26: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections; for even their women did change (exchange) the natural use into (for) that which is against nature."


Verse 28: "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate (debased) mind, to do those things which are not convenient (fitting)."


So we see that God's wrath is just giving us up to our own sinful ways to reap what we have sown. He doesn't punish us. He doesn't harm us in any way. He just let's us go the way we have chosen. We then punish ourselves by our wrong decisions.


God has given us the 10 Commandments as a guide for our life. He says that if we obey them, our lives will be easier and happier. If we don't obey them, our lives will be harder and more sorrowful - - - NOT because He's going to punish us, but because the natural result of our actions and behavior will bring us sorrow and pain.


When our children were young, we warned them not to play in the street. We didn't say, "If you play in the street, I'll kill you." No, we said "I love you and I don't want to see you hurt. If you play in the street, you might be injured or killed."


It's the same with God. He says, "I love you and I want your life to be happy and healthy. If you don't obey the guidelines I have given you, I won't punish you, but you will punish yourselves by bringing on yourselves the results of your behavior. You will reap what you have sown."

Offline shawn

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2012, 01:06:12 AM »
Back to the original question of "is there a greek word for eternity"
Apparently not - at least not exactly. Here are what scholars say:

Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46). Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).
Hasting's Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting—nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370)
Jeremy Taylor, a world famous Protestant hell-fire advocate wavers, and after his ebullient flashes of Systematic Hellology, he is constrained to the following modification in Jeremy Taylor's Works (vol. 3, p. 43): "Though the fire is everlasting, not all that enters it is everlasting," then adds, "The word everlasting signifies only to the end of its period." Would that other hell-fire advocates were so honest.
The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693): ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as "forever," means in itself no more than 'for an indefinitely long period." Thus me olam does not mean "from eternity" but "of old" Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam. (Note: even the Catholic translators of The Jerusalem Bible and The New American Bible have failed to heed the scholarship of their own Catholic authorities.)
Saint Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastema, "an eonian interval." How many intervals do you know of that are "endless" or "eternal?"

Great post.

jaareshiah

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2012, 07:18:58 AM »
The word "eternal" can be applied to more than just God, for even the mountains are spoken of as being "eternal" at Habakkuk 3:6, saying: "And the eternal (Hebrew adh' ) mountains got to be smashed; the indefinitely lasting ("indefinitely lasting", Hebrew ohlam) hills bowed down. The walkings of long ago are his."

And of the rebellious angels, including Satan, Jude wrote that Jehovah God has "reserved with eternal (Greek aidiois) bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day."(Jude 6) This is the same Greek word that the apostle Paul used at Romans 1:20 with regard to God, saying that "even his eternal (Greek aidiois ) power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable."

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2012, 07:47:32 AM »
From jaareshiah
"The word "eternal" can be applied to more than just God, for even the mountains are spoken of as being "eternal" at Habakkuk 3:6, saying: "And the eternal (Hebrew adh' ) mountains got to be smashed; the indefinitely lasting ("indefinitely lasting", Hebrew ohlam) hills bowed down. The walkings of long ago are his."

Of course eternal is used here as a figure of speech. Compared to the lifespan of a man they would certainly seem so. But we all know the Bible says these mountains will disappear so are not eternal.
Like when the Bible says, "God owns the cattle on 1,000 hills" it is again a figure of speech. God owns the cattle on 1,001 hills, on 1,002 hills, etc. basically ALL the hills. Why didn't it say ALL that the first time?
You surely don't think the hills actually bowed down did you?
The Bible and science are pretty clear. NOTHING CREATED can last forever, so wherever the Bible uses the word eternal and it is NOT in reference to God, they mean a comparatively lomg time.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline dajomaco

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2012, 07:30:48 PM »
Shawn wrote and I agree

So we see that God's wrath is just giving us up to our own sinful ways to reap what we have sown. He doesn't punish us. He doesn't harm us in any way. He just let's us go the way we have chosen. We then punish ourselves by our wrong decisions.

IMO All of nature is continually.
all of natural science is continually correcting Man in his inability to sow
that which will bring about an everlasting environment of peace and sanctuary.

All of creation moans.
When we reflect upon certain situations and we believe God is.
When I am convinced that I am a child of God I think as a child
that his correction might be a punishment.

When I am aware that I am on longer a child, but now an heir.
I have instruction from the Holy Spirit that leads.
Erring on my part now, can be used  to build an experiential data pass or resource
that I will using when judging the Angels.
     
       

Offline CHB

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2012, 08:28:19 PM »
Quote from: dajomaco

Shawn wrote and I agree

So we see that God's wrath is just giving us up to our own sinful ways to reap what we have sown. He doesn't punish us. He doesn't harm us in any way. He just let's us go the way we have chosen. We then punish ourselves by our wrong decisions.

Wouldn't that be like putting your 2 year old in a room full of all sorts of harmful things and say "if you eat poision and die it's your fault"?

CHB


Offline shawn

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2012, 08:43:08 PM »
Quote from: dajomaco

Shawn wrote and I agree

So we see that God's wrath is just giving us up to our own sinful ways to reap what we have sown. He doesn't punish us. He doesn't harm us in any way. He just let's us go the way we have chosen. We then punish ourselves by our wrong decisions.

Wouldn't that be like putting your 2 year old in a room full of all sorts of harmful things and say "if you eat poision and die it's your fault"?

CHB

If the ending was ET...I would agree...deck stacked against us...here is a knife don't kill yourself with it.

But, those who believe UR should have a different perspective.  If God uses these methods to educate all humans, who are we to question?  I see punishment as spiritual education.  How much education we need depends highly on how stubbornly we are rooted in our sin.  They come in the natural form of consequences.  When a child touches a hot stove...they learn not to do that again.  While I may have told my child not to touch the stove...their disobedience disciplined them through consequence.

It seems to me that God has allowed broken, frail, fleshly people to navigate a world set up to educate our spirits.  Even the food we want to eat isn't good for us much of the time.  I want bacon cheese burgers and milk shakes...but my ever enlarging belly tells me I need to eat in moderation...and to mix in some healthy items.  Even my diet teaches me the spiritual principle of moderation and self discipline.

The hole, the emptiness teaches combined with my inability to navigate this world without Him teaches me relationship.  It calls me into a partnership with Him, where if my eyes stay focused on Him, and my mind aware of His lessons hidden through daily living...I become perfected even as I'm am perfect through faith in Christ.

Today this is how I see things...ask me tomorrow it may be quite different :)

Offline CHB

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2012, 10:05:10 PM »
Quote from: shawn
It seems to me that God has allowed broken, frail, fleshly people to navigate a world set up to educate our spirits.  Even the food we want to eat isn't good for us much of the time.  I want bacon cheese burgers and milk shakes...but my ever enlarging belly tells me I need to eat in moderation...and to mix in some healthy items.  Even my diet teaches me the spiritual principle of moderation and self discipline.

I agree God is teaching us the consequences of good and evil. He is letting us experience both to learn from. He is the one who gave us both and he is the one who determines how much, when, and if we experience it.

If we are in control of all that, it seems funny that we can't control our appetites, our actions, etc. Why do we eat or drink stuff that we know is not good for us?  I think it is not in us, not meant for us to control these things otherwise we couldn't learn anything from them.

CHB


Offline shawn

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Re: is there a greek word for "eternity"
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2012, 11:45:29 PM »
Quote from: shawn
It seems to me that God has allowed broken, frail, fleshly people to navigate a world set up to educate our spirits.  Even the food we want to eat isn't good for us much of the time.  I want bacon cheese burgers and milk shakes...but my ever enlarging belly tells me I need to eat in moderation...and to mix in some healthy items.  Even my diet teaches me the spiritual principle of moderation and self discipline.
d

I agree God is teaching us the consequences of good and evil. He is letting us experience both to learn from. He is the one who gave us both and he is the one who determines how much, when, and if we experience it.

If we are in control of all that, it seems funny that we can't control our appetites, our actions, etc. Why do we eat or drink stuff that we know is not good for us?  I think it is not in us, not meant for us to control these things otherwise we couldn't learn anything from them.

CHB

I think you are just one step away...we learn we can't...exactly the point.  Not only do I experience some of the horrific consequences of my own evil...but I learn that I am utterly incapable.  It's what you call a spiritual bottom.  From that place of brokenness, we learn humility...and from that humility we lean upon God.  We also learn to love those we once judged, as we find we are just as capable of grave evils.  So, from these lessons of consequences...we learn dependence upon God and love for our neighbor.