Author Topic: Ignorantly in unbelief  (Read 2659 times)

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goodreport

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Ignorantly in unbelief
« on: October 23, 2012, 03:59:07 PM »
Paul chooses words very carefully, I wonder why he chose the word "ignorantly"

1 Tim 1:13
...but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Is there an OT law concerning doing things in ignorance?

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 04:44:02 PM »
IMO Paul knew the Law completely but didn't understand it's purpose so was therefore ignorant.
Paul thought (as many still do today) that the only thing important was keeping the Law (being "good" to get to heaven.)
His eyes were opened (after being blinded) and he saw that :
1. The bible recorded the exact number of people that were saved by keeping the Law - zero.
2. By persecuting Christians to death he was breaking the law (even though it was with the approval of the earthly "higher ups"
3. I believe he began to see and finally saw that ALL of the law was summed up in "Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself"
If Paul did see that before(and he might have) he was not interpreting neighbor correctly.
I believe Jesus saw "Neighbor" as "everyone else in the world." [inclusive]
Paul may have seen it like many people do today as
"neighbor" means only those that are like you and agree with you and believe as you do.[exclusive]
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

goodreport

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 04:47:44 PM »
re: IMO Paul...

Good opinions, but I'm asking for OT Scripture references to disobeying the law out of ignorance.


Offline sheila

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 06:26:12 PM »
exodus 21;26  if a man hits a maidservant or manservant in the eye and destroys it..he must let the

  servant go free to compensate for the eye..  to you the secrets of the kingdom have been given..

  to them I speak in parables..so seeing they do not see..and hearing they do not hear..


   the law is spiritual...and is always fufilled in love.   Love keeps no record of the offense.....

   I will show mercy unto whom I show mercy..is God's freedom to call unto grace while in this age

  or the next. Now men..under wrath are no more than examples of His wrath against satan and his demons

  for we know God made a covenant of peace through His son with man

     John the Baptist's baptism was a baptism into death...to prepare the way of the Lord..it isa symbol

   of death of the flesh/sins wage, or man's will[get behind me satan] which 'prepares' the way of the Lord

   while a man is physically alive, repentance of these sin works that bring death and enmity..and receiving grace

 and token of spirit can make them spiritually alive to God.  However being spiritually alive to God also

  has a pre-requisite that you count your flesh as good as dead.  the understanding is topsy-turvey


   now,John the baptist said to the Pharisees and sadduces that came out to him in the wilderness...


   you offspring of vipers..who warned you to escape from the coming wrath.    the 'death' of the flesh or more

 so..the sin in it..prepares the way for Christ/annointed spirit. free gift of Grace...[it is likened to the death

  of that wicked generation that perishes in the wilderness..before the remainder enter the promised land]

   going down into the Jordan/death..you rise up out of it and the Holy spirit comes upon those raised in Christ

  in the bodily form of a dove....

   what occurs on earth is but a shadow of the Heavenly arrangement...thy will be done on earth as it is

  in heaven....  Paul said..we shall not all die..but at the last trump be changed..and we shall in no way

  precede those who have died before us..

  our repentance,receiving token of Holy spirit..and ministry here on earth is but a shadow of the

  GLORY THAT IS IN HEAVEN..if by our token and counting our flesh as good as dead through Jesus Christ

  we have access to God and the Holy of Holies...all the more the spirits of men who return to God

  and their flesh is actually dead..  Prodigals come home..

   there is one body and many parts....do not think..if you remain alive in the flesh that you preced those who

  have already died If His spirit be in you and He dwell in you..it most certainly is all the more in it's fullness

  in the heavens..If the earth be His footstool where He place death under His feet..then all the more His body

  and it's fullness in Heaven.


     

 

Offline Molly

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2012, 06:48:25 PM »
Leviticus 5:15

15 "If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering: "

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 06:51:18 PM »
So ignorance of the Law is no excuse? Some repayment is required although it is lessor than
law violation with knowledge?
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Molly

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 06:56:22 PM »
Numbers 15:24

24 "Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering. "



Joshua 20:3

3 "That the slayer that killeth any person unawares and unwittingly may flee thither: and they shall be your refuge from the avenger of blood. "



Deuteronomy 19:4

4 "And this is the case of the slayer, which shall flee thither, that he may live: Whoso killeth his neighbour ignorantly, whom he hated not in time past; "

Joshua 20:5

5 "And if the avenger of blood pursue after him, then they shall not deliver the slayer up into his hand; because he smote his neighbour unwittingly, and hated him not beforetime. "



Acts 17:30-31

30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"
31 "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. "

Offline Molly

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 06:58:05 PM »
So ignorance of the Law is no excuse? Some repayment is required although it is lessor than
law violation with knowledge?

Not to worry.  Jesus has it covered.

Offline Molly

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 07:01:34 PM »
even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 1 Tim 1:13


All throughout the Old Testament we see God interacting with men who are ignorant of his nature or are in unbelief.  Isn't this the starting point for all of us who love the Lord?  And, he just sticks with us until we get there--otherwise how would we get from here to there?


This is beautiful--


But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
 
(1 Timothy 1:16-17 ESV)



Exodus 34:6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2012, 07:01:45 PM »
So ignorance of the Law is no excuse? Some repayment is required although it is lessor than
law violation with knowledge?
Luke 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2012, 07:09:36 PM »
even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 1 Tim 1:13
I don't know it's the point you want to make but mercy doesn't need to equal no stripes at all. Could just as well mean only 1/3 of the one who knows.

Factoid. Stripes were in multiple of 3, with a maximum of 13x3=39.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2012, 07:11:08 PM »
even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 1 Tim 1:13
I don't know for sure it's the point you want to make but mercy doesn't need to equal no stripes at all. Could just as well mean only 1/3 of the one who knows.

Factoid. Stripes were in multiple of 3, with a maximum of 13x3=39.

I think we would be served by looking at what stripes Paul received for his ignorance.

It played itself out in his post road-to-Damascus lifetime.


Wasn't it mostly Paul beating himself up?


But for that very reason I received mercy, so that in me, as the worst sinner, the Messiah Jesus might demonstrate all of his patience as an example for those who would believe in him for eternal life.

Offline sheila

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2012, 07:19:55 PM »
  I have actually come across those who choose willful ignorance over the 'accountability" factor.

   I learned this principle a long time ago, as a child..when I let other kids talk me into going along

  with them..when I KNEW I SHOULDN'T.....sure enough..I got a whippin and sent to bed....where

  I listened to them playing outside all day.
 
  another time,as a young adult..we almost all drowned because I could see the water over the road

  was much deeper on the far side[evidently they couldn't] and they pressured me to keep going....

  I asked them to help me back out and they declined..they kept insisting I go ahead..until we were

  washed off the highway and almost drowned in the floodwaters[I kept thinking as we got closer they

  would be able to see,too.  but they never did]Rev 12;15.

   I find a parelel spiritually..in these things

 

goodreport

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2012, 04:27:22 AM »
Blessings to all... thank you so much.  I can connect yet more dots in my study--

(very, very brief outline)

Saul     unbelief      murders/persecutes Christians

Name (Nature) change  I call it the Damascus experience

Paul   believe     ministers LIFE

Molly special thanks for all the OT references and for the NT:  one of my favorites 1Tim 1:16-17
as I look to Paul as a pattern/example of believing on Him to life everlasting.

AND WW for Luke 12:48  (I've been doing a lot of thinking and praying regarding having been given much (faith to believe on Jesus as Savior of ALL) and wondered where in the Scriptures I could find the Book, chapter, verse and you so graciously provided... thanks WW
I've been pondering a great deal on the last part of that verse ..."much will be demanded"

well, I get up early, so must retire for the night.  I just didn't want to let another day pass by without my thanking all of you who shared thoughts, opinions, Scriptures.  May God richly bless you.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2012, 08:29:00 AM »
Though it seems everybody's sins would be because of ignorance and unbelief, this thread has brought forward in me the question, "What rare sin could be done against full faith and knowledge?"  (This is a pop quiz and the results will count toward your final grade.)
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2012, 03:54:34 PM »
AHH reformer "What rare sin could be done against full faith and knowledge?"

When a born again, truly saved person (that is what I think you mean by full faith and knowledge)
sins is it rare?
Suppose I'm driving on my way to a business appointment, I get an impression from the Lord to stop and help some guy at the side of the road fooling with changing a tire. I don't stop and I go to my appointment so that I'm not late. I have sinned by not obeying. Similar things happen on an almost daily basis. Sometimes I obey, sometimes I don't. I know it's wrong and i ask forgiveness. I know I'm forgiven and I seem to be getting better at this so I guess progress is being made.
Oh yeah, a ton of rationalizations are involved whenever i disobey but God and I know they are just poor excuses.
"Anything not done of the spirit is sin"
Sin of commission and sin of omission.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

goodreport

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2012, 04:12:20 PM »
Though it seems everybody's sins would be because of ignorance and unbelief, this thread has brought forward in me the question, "What rare sin could be done against full faith and knowledge?"  (This is a pop quiz and the results will count toward your final grade.)

Final Grade???

Hasn't our final grade been secured by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2012, 04:15:36 PM »
He meant it would go on "our permanent record" :laughing7:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2012, 08:08:16 AM »
Everything matters.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

jaareshiah

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2012, 04:31:06 AM »
The apostle Paul used the word "ignorant" (Greek agnoon, meaning "not to know [through lack of information or intelligence], Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, G50) to describe why he was "a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insolent man".

In the first century, a man named Saul (who later came to be known by his Latin name Paul) was well-known for his disrespectful speech, even for his violent behavior. The Bible says that he was "breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord." (Acts 9:1, 2) Although some of his relatives may already have become Christians, he said of his own attitude toward Christ's followers: "Since I was extremely mad against them, I went so far as to persecuting them even in outside cities." (Acts 23:16; 26:11)

Why did Saul act like that ? In about 61 C.E., he wrote to Timothy: "I was ignorant and acted with a lack of faith." (1 Timothy 1:13) He was a Pharisee, educated "according to the strictness of the ancestral Law." (Acts 22:3) Though Saul's teacher Gamaliel was evidently somewhat broad-minded, high priest Caiaphas, with whom Saul came to be associated, proved to be fanatic.

Caiaphas had been a ringleader in the plot that led to the execution of Jesus Christ. (Matthew 26:3, 4, 63-66; Acts 5:34-39) After that, Caiaphas saw to it that the apostles of Jesus were flogged, and he sternly ordered them to quit preaching on the basis of Jesus' name. Caiaphas presided over the Sanhedrin at the emotionally charged session during which Stephen was taken away to be stoned. (Acts 5:27, 28, 40; 7:1-60) Saul observed the stoning, and Caiaphas authorized him to follow through on further efforts to suppress the followers of Jesus by arresting them in Damascus. (Acts 8:1; 9:1, 2)

Under this influence, Saul thought that his conduct gave evidence of zeal for God, but he actually lacked real faith. (Acts 22:3-5) As a result, Saul failed to realize that Jesus was the true Messiah, being strongly influenced by wicked Jewish high priest, Caiaphas. But Saul came to his senses when the resurrected Jesus miraculously spoke to him on the road to Damascus.(Acts 9:3-6) Hence, he did not know that he was in actuality, fighting against God, so he acknowledged to Timothy that he had been "ignorant and acted with a lack of faith."

The Greek word agnoon is also used by Paul at Romans 2:4, in which he said: "Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and long-suffering, because you do not know (Greek agnoon) that the kindly [quality] of God is trying to lead you to repentance?"(New World Translation)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 07:33:50 AM by reFORMer »

Offline sheila

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2012, 04:44:16 AM »
I think he was deceived and blinded by satan[the god of this world] from the glorious gospel....satan

 deceived the entire inhabited earth......if you are deceived..you are blind and ignorant to truth

goodreport

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Re: Ignorantly in unbelief
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2012, 08:59:06 PM »
The apostle Paul used the word "ignorant" (Greek agnoon, meaning "not to know [through lack of information or intelligence], Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, G50) to describe why he was "a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insolent man".

In the first century, a man named Saul (who later came to be known by his Latin name Paul) was well-known for his disrespectful speech, even for his violent behavior. The Bible says that he was "breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord." (Acts 9:1, 2) Although some of his relatives may already have become Christians, he said of his own attitude toward Christ's followers: "Since I was extremely mad against them, I went so far as to persecuting them even in outside cities." (Acts 23:16; 26:11)

Why did Saul act like that ? In about 61 C.E., he wrote to Timothy: "I was ignorant and acted with a lack of faith." (1 Timothy 1:13) He was a Pharisee, educated "according to the strictness of the ancestral Law." (Acts 22:3) Though Saul's teacher Gamaliel was evidently somewhat broad-minded, high priest Caiaphas, with whom Saul came to be associated, proved to be fanatic.

Caiaphas had been a ringleader in the plot that led to the execution of Jesus Christ. (Matthew 26:3, 4, 63-66; Acts 5:34-39) After that, Caiaphas saw to it that the apostles of Jesus were flogged, and he sternly ordered them to quit preaching on the basis of Jesus' name. Caiaphas presided over the Sanhedrin at the emotionally charged session during which Stephen was taken away to be stoned. (Acts 5:27, 28, 40; 7:1-60) Saul observed the stoning, and Caiaphas authorized him to follow through on further efforts to suppress the followers of Jesus by arresting them in Damascus. (Acts 8:1; 9:1, 2)

Under this influence, Saul thought that his conduct gave evidence of zeal for God, but he actually lacked real faith. (Acts 22:3-5) As a result, Saul failed to realize that Jesus was the true Messiah, being strongly influenced by wicked Jewish high priest, Caiaphas. But Saul came to his senses when the resurrected Jesus miraculously spoke to him on the road to Damascus.(Acts 9:3-6) Hence, he did not know that he was in actuality, fighting against God, so he acknowledged to Timothy that he had been "ignorant and acted with a lack of faith."

The Greek word agnoon is also used by Paul at Romans 2:4, in which he said: "Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and long-suffering, because you do not know (Greek agnoon) that the kindly [quality] of God is trying to lead you to repentance?"(New World Translation)

jaareshiah, I decided to review all your posts and upon reading this one, I realized that I hadn't thanked you for a very informative (both historically and scripturally) reply. I will print it and add it to my collection of hard copies.  I prefer working with paper and pen during my study times.  Again, many thanks for taking the time to share this information.