Author Topic: Fallen angels  (Read 7476 times)

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Offline sheila

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2012, 05:41:47 PM »
don't forget two seeds sown in field[our dust/flesh] tokogae. corrupt image/fallen angel andbabylon

  incorrupt/sons of God/daughters ofGod.

   to me..this is nothing more  tham a spiritual mixing...unlawful marriage to a daughter of a foreign god.

   sons of God marry image of babylon[see Solomon]

    we see it today when a son of God taught of Him  gets caught visiting prostitues..they get exposed

  and loose their position....they want daughters of men not daughtersof God to expend their lust on.

   there's an old saying...good girls go to heaven..bad girls go everywhere....

  take a look at the mega media churches..their pastorsand wives..spiritual giants.

Online micah7:9

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2012, 06:44:30 PM »
"The global flood forced the wicked angelic "sons of God" to dematerialize and go back into the spirit realm, having to abandon their offspring, the Nephilim, who died during the Noachian Flood. " (jaareshiah)

This "your" understanding correct? I question a global flood, and where did this "idea" that the "sons of God" were wicked angelic beings or even angelic beings?
Luk 3:38  the son of Cainan, the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Nothing angelic about Adam.
Joh 1:12  but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God--to those believing in his name, .....

I do not believe that we can say for a surety just who the sons of God (OT) are/were. Building on man's speculations, building on religious and theological reasoning is (imo) just how we have the Babylon of denominations and non denominations we have today. :2c:
There is TRUTH and that truth is still being sought.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2012, 06:56:49 PM »
and just like the Gabriel archangel thing -
Nobody knows for certain what exactly is meant by that term in that chapter.
Maybe "bad angels" in the sense that they were the ones that rebelled with the devil. The problem with the passage is that it indicates spiritual beings having physical relations and producing physical sperm to make a physical body. I would think at first glance well, that's impossible but then I remember the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and produced the physical Jesus so it's a tough call either way.
I do know that jaareshiah is spouting the JW party line in all his answers so take it with a grain of salt. I guess he isn't content to talk on JW forum websites cuz that doesn't count toward getting his ticket to paradise stamped.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Online micah7:9

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2012, 07:01:52 PM »
and just like the Gabriel archangel thing -
Nobody knows for certain what exactly is meant by that term in that chapter.
Maybe "bad angels" in the sense that they were the ones that rebelled with the devil. The problem with the passage is that it indicates spiritual beings having physical relations and producing physical sperm to make a physical body. I would think at first glance well, that's impossible but then I remember the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and produced the physical Jesus so it's a tough call either way.
I do know that jaareshiah is spouting the JW party line in all his answers so take it with a grain of salt. I guess he isn't content to talk on JW forum websites cuz that doesn't count toward getting his ticket to paradise stamped.

 :gimmefive:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

jaareshiah

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2012, 07:16:05 PM »
"The global flood forced the wicked angelic "sons of God" to dematerialize and go back into the spirit realm, having to abandon their offspring, the Nephilim, who died during the Noachian Flood. " (jaareshiah)

This "your" understanding correct? I question a global flood, and where did this "idea" that the "sons of God" were wicked angelic beings or even angelic beings?
Luk 3:38  the son of Cainan, the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Nothing angelic about Adam.
Joh 1:12  but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God--to those believing in his name, .....

I do not believe that we can say for a surety just who the sons of God (OT) are/were. Building on man's speculations, building on religious and theological reasoning is (imo) just how we have the Babylon of denominations and non denominations we have today. :2c:
There is TRUTH and that truth is still being sought.


In the book of Jude, Jude wrote concerning those not "showing faith" (verse 5): "And the angels that did not keep their original position (in heaven) but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. So too Sod´om and Go·mor´rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones ( the "angels", verse 6) had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire."(Jude 6, 7)

These wicked angels left their "proper dwelling place" in heaven and came down to the earth, and "went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose."(Gen 6:1) The sexual union between them and "the daughters of men" produced giant offspring called Nephilim. However, with the beginning of the global deluge, these former angelic "sons of God" dematerialized and returned to spirit realm, but their Nephilim sons died.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 04:50:42 AM by jaareshiah »

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2012, 07:50:57 PM »
 No where does the book of Jude mention these "wicked angels" as having anything to do with the nephilim or the 6th chapter of Genesis. Jude says these wicked angels are kept in darkness and bound with everlasting chains for judgment in the great day.
A second indication that they had nothing to do with Genesis chapter 6 since  whatever beings that were there were free to have sex with "any they chose"- that doesn't jive with being bound with everlasting chains in darkness.
The bible also says absolutely nothing about the Nephilim being 1.)angelic, 2.)dematerializing, 3.) returning to the spiritual realm
4.) coming from the spiritual realm.
Why doesn't the organization admit they don't know instead of making up fanciful stories? Are they afraid people will find out that they don't have all the answers. None of us, including me, have all the answers and any person or organization on earth that claims to have all the answers is flat out lying to you.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline sheila

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2012, 07:59:35 PM »
just as the virgin Mary conceived of the Holy spirit 'that Holy thing'  a perfect sinless man...

  so too daughters of men/churches] have 'conceived and brought forth in the flesh" children of the devil

 even offspring of vipers.  Jesus showed forth this truth when He spoke to Pharisees and Sadducees

  [religious leaders] in His day...they wash the outside of the cup to indeed appear holy unto men......

  white-washed graves  full of dead men's bones...First cleanse the inside of the cup./casting out

  demonic doctrines of demons./liar and theif...and truth of the inward parts/virgin puretruth will result

Offline sheila

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2012, 08:07:12 PM »
corrupted messenger[angelic] spirits.....pervert the flesh of man in many ways[marrs man in God's image]

   all sorts of manipulation of the human body occurs..giantism[pituatary tumour] 6 toes/fingers

  666? seizures,blindness,deafness,muteness..always lead to both spiritualsickness and death....as

  evidenced in earth flesh also.corruption/sin in flesh

jaareshiah

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2012, 11:01:17 PM »
No where does the book of Jude mention these "wicked angels" as having anything to do with the nephilim or the 6th chapter of Genesis. Jude says these wicked angels are kept in darkness and bound with everlasting chains for judgment in the great day.
A second indication that they had nothing to do with Genesis chapter 6 since  whatever beings that were there were free to have sex with "any they chose"- that doesn't jive with being bound with everlasting chains in darkness.
The bible also says absolutely nothing about the Nephilim being 1.)angelic, 2.)dematerializing, 3.) returning to the spiritual realm
4.) coming from the spiritual realm.
Why doesn't the organization admit they don't know instead of making up fanciful stories? Are they afraid people will find out that they don't have all the answers. None of us, including me, have all the answers and any person or organization on earth that claims to have all the answers is flat out lying to you.

Had you looked more carefully at what Jude wrote, then you could see that Jude was speaking of angels that "forsook" (Greek "me teresantes", meaning literally "not to guard" or a failure to guard, "keeping an eye upon" [teresantes], Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, G3361, G5083) their "proper dwelling place" ("own habitation", King James Bible) in heaven and "committed fornication excessively" with women, going "out after flesh for unnatural use", just as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah had done, Jude saying "in the same manner as the forgoing ones (Sodom and Gomorrah)."

These rebellious angels left their "proper dwelling place" in heaven as spirit "sons of God" and then came down to the earth, materializing as men and "committed fornication excessively" with women, which is "unnatural", or "in the same manner" as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.(Gen 19:4, 5)

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2012, 11:14:07 PM »
The Jude angels are not related to the Genesis 6 angels by scripture verse. at least,.you haven't shown me a clear relationship, And only in science fiction do beings materialize as men and then dematerialize to go back on board the starship.

The bible also says absolutely nothing about the Nephilim being 1.)angelic, 2.)dematerializing, 3.) returning to the spiritual realm
4.) coming from the spiritual realm.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Paul L

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2012, 12:54:07 AM »

Had you looked more carefully at what Jude wrote, then you could see that Jude was speaking of angels that "forsook" .........

These rebellious angels left their "proper dwelling place" in heaven as spirit "sons of God" and then came down to the earth, materializing as men and "committed fornication excessively" with women, which is "unnatural", or "in the same manner" as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.(Gen 19:4, 5)

Yeh, it says "angels"alright, but it does not say "sons of God", two different classes of heavenly hosts. The "sons of God" should not be equated with the rebellious "angels", scripture in Psalms & Job makes it clear that the "sons of God" have always lived with God in heaven and were part of the heavenly host standing with God when Satan made his appearance in heaven to accuse Job. These "sons of God" in the book of Job also stood with God to praise the creation of the universe, these are not "angels" & it cannot be demonstrated by any scripture it is otherwise.

The "sons of God" in Gen 6 are "sons" of the earthly rulers (elohim) who are listed in Gen 5, just drop the capitalization on "God", make the "G" smallcase as it should be, then reread the scripture in the context in which it was written,  should be written as: "sons of god". Just because you see the English word "God" for the Hebrew elohim, doesn't mean in Hebrew you are referencing the "elohim" in heaven, there are lots of "elohim" on Earth who are also "rulers" & they are all flesh & blood born of fathers & mothers just like you and I. And by the way, thus is why they had the ability to procreate with the daughters of other men, you know, just like you & me, our wives were once another man's daughter.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 03:00:46 AM by Paul L »

Offline sheila

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2012, 03:12:41 AM »
in the book ofAdam and Eve ch 19 it tells how the descendants of Adam,Seth's line stayed on the mountain

 seperate from the offspring of Cain.....God did not want mixing of good/evil examples in men....

 that confuses the discernment from good/evil.anyway,the book speaks of Cain's descendant's

 enticing the children of seths that kept the holy things off the mountain.

  Enoch was at that time already grown up and   and he arose and beseeched the sons of Seth to not

  go down off the mountain....A prediction of the coming flood was made shortly after this

   anyway..man serves as an example of the unseen spiritual realm to openly manifestthe

 good/evil spirit contrasts.

    Jude says....'they serve as examples' of what awaitsthe evil/contrast tool/satan and demons.

Offline Paul L

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2012, 03:22:13 AM »
in the book ofAdam and Eve ch 19 it tells how the descendants of Adam,Seth's line stayed on the mountain

I looked for this, was unable to find it....

Offline sheila

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2012, 03:43:14 AM »
  I ordered  it title the Lost Books of the Bible and the forgotten books of Eden

   Published by World Bible Publishers  the Lost books copyright 1926 the forgotton books 1927

   in USA and Newfoundland by Alpha house.

   ISBN 0-529-02061   Isbn 0-529-03385-3

   My sister Rose bought it off the internet for me about 11 yrs ago.   google bookstore proablably

  has it.

  the Adam and Eve part is just part of the book....similitude,Secrets  of Enoch,hermes,maccabees

  many more

Online micah7:9

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2012, 05:39:56 AM »
What is it's Biblical worth, honestly? And how can one use it to open Biblical information and insight outside of more human speculation, assumption, and just human imagination by creating more unsound mythical doctrine and confusion? I think you wasted your money as I have on such things as "The Secret Teachings of Jesus [Four Gnostic Gospels]" and the "Book of Mary," and "The Book of Enoch."
What do you gain in debate or argument?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Paul L

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2012, 01:37:19 PM »
What is it's Biblical worth, honestly? And how can one use it to open Biblical information and insight outside of more human speculation, assumption, and just human imagination by creating more unsound mythical doctrine and confusion? I think you wasted your money as I have on such things as "The Secret Teachings of Jesus [Four Gnostic Gospels]" and the "Book of Mary," and "The Book of Enoch."
What do you gain in debate or argument?

The only thing I see gained is a Satanic effort to diminish the value of the other 66 biblios of Holy Writ. I've looked over some of this fiction in the past, and it is so quirky & incomprehensible to read that you just might as well be reading a Harry Potter book or something out of Grimm's book of fairytales, in fact those those books probably make more sense.

jaareshiah

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2012, 07:03:59 PM »

Had you looked more carefully at what Jude wrote, then you could see that Jude was speaking of angels that "forsook" .........

These rebellious angels left their "proper dwelling place" in heaven as spirit "sons of God" and then came down to the earth, materializing as men and "committed fornication excessively" with women, which is "unnatural", or "in the same manner" as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.(Gen 19:4, 5)

Yeh, it says "angels"alright, but it does not say "sons of God", two different classes of heavenly hosts. The "sons of God" should not be equated with the rebellious "angels", scripture in Psalms & Job makes it clear that the "sons of God" have always lived with God in heaven and were part of the heavenly host standing with God when Satan made his appearance in heaven to accuse Job. These "sons of God" in the book of Job also stood with God to praise the creation of the universe, these are not "angels" & it cannot be demonstrated by any scripture it is otherwise.

The "sons of God" in Gen 6 are "sons" of the earthly rulers (elohim) who are listed in Gen 5, just drop the capitalization on "God", make the "G" smallcase as it should be, then reread the scripture in the context in which it was written,  should be written as: "sons of god". Just because you see the English word "God" for the Hebrew elohim, doesn't mean in Hebrew you are referencing the "elohim" in heaven, there are lots of "elohim" on Earth who are also "rulers" & they are all flesh & blood born of fathers & mothers just like you and I. And by the way, thus is why they had the ability to procreate with the daughters of other men, you know, just like you & me, our wives were once another man's daughter.

At Job 38, our Creator, Jehovah God , said to Job: "Who is this that is obscuring counsel by words without knowledge?....Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?....When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God ("sons of God", Hebrew beneh´ 'Elo·him´; Jewish Targums, "the bands of angels"; Greek Septuagint, "my angels) "began shouting in applause? "(Job 38:2, 4, 7)

Thus, at the laying of the foundation of the earth, the angelic hosts applauded, for no humans existed at that time, these being "sons of God" as Adam at Luke 3:38 and of which the apostle Paul said that Jesus, after his resurrection to heaven, continued to be called "the Son of God".(Heb 4:14)

At Psalms 89, the question is asked: "For who in the skies can be compared to Jehovah? Who can resemble Jehovah among the sons of God?" (or angels, Ps 89:6) And at Job 1, it says: "Now it came to be the day when the sons of ("sons of ", Hebrew beneh´; Greek Septuagint, "angels.") the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them."(Job 1:6)

The apostle Peter said that after Jesus resurrection, that "he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's days, while the ark was being constructed."(1 Pet 3:19, 20)

Hence, the "sons of God" at Genesis 6 are not "sons" of the earthly rulers who are listed in Genesis 5, but rather are angels that left their "own proper dwelling place" in heaven, forsaking it, and materialized as men to commit fornication excessively with women.(Jude 6, 7)

These are later called demons ("demon", Greek dai´mon, Matt 8:31), "wicked spirits" (Greek poneron pneumaton,  Luke 7:21; 8:2) and "unclean spirits".(Greek pneumaton akatharton, Matt 10:1) The men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah followed after their pattern (Gen 19), going "out after flesh for unnatural use".(Jude 7)


Offline eaglesway

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2012, 09:22:33 PM »
This is one of those issues about which Paul spoke that we ought not enter "doubtful disputation". There is not enough written in scripture to "teach as sound doctrine" either way- and any opinion held on the interpretation and application of these verses can be held by saints in fellowship with one another and discussed.

None of these positions is suitable for strife and debate since there is not sufficient eveidence to "approve" before all the saints of God.

Jahareesh, you may state your opinions as opinions, but not teach them as systematic theology on the forum, as you have now been told several times. If you continue to take the tone of a "teacher of absolute truth" on this forum, especially concerning topics that have no bearing on the focus point for the board, which is, "the salvation of all" you will be temporarily restricted from being able to participate in these discussions.
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Offline Paul L

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2012, 11:27:02 PM »
Jaar,

Quote
Hence, the "sons of God" at Genesis 6 are not "sons" of the earthly rulers who are listed in Genesis 5,

So you want to pick & choose where your elohim are living. Gen 6 clearly states these are elohim living on planet Earth. You know this because they have flesh & blood sons, angels cannot procreate, Christ himself told us this, Mark 12.25, Matt22:30, no sex for these guys is there? But that didn't stop the "sons of elohim" in Gen 6.

Quote
but rather are angels that left their "own proper dwelling place" in heaven, forsaking it, and materialized as men to commit fornication excessively with women.(Jude 6, 7)

Now you want to pick & choose whether elohim means "angels" or "sons of elohim".  You don't have a Biblical premise to have it both ways that you've shown me whereby I can read it in black & white.

Quote
These are later called demons ......

Really? I'll ask you again to show us where in Holy Writ it is stated the "sons of God" are angels. You just make a blatant statement that they are & jump all the way to the book of Jude to patch & paste stuff together to rationalize an unwarranted statement.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 03:13:06 AM by Paul L »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2012, 05:43:11 AM »
(Forgive me for not spending much time in developing any of the following, only mentioning it instead.  It's interesting to consider the possibility.)

In the parable of the trees in Eden and their jealousy (in Isa., Jer., or Eze., ?) is one indication other sentient beings may have been in the Garden besides Adam, Eve, and the serpent.  The possibility has been shown to me that that Adam had offspring while he still had two sexes before the "curved chamber" was removed from him and built into a woman.  These bi-sexual, androgynous beings were here, but left Eden, then returned in the days of the flood.  There are suggestions from ancient Sumeria of where they went and may even be at this time.

(This is nothing I'm making a plea for people to believe and I'm not going into detail about it right now.  Perhaps someone else knows of this?)
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2012, 02:28:04 PM »
These beings would have been born without sin since Adam fell after Eve arrived. I don't think that was part of God's plan.
Adam wouldn't have been lonely with children around.
These beings would have been "little Adams" able to walk with God in the garden during the cool of the day.
Why would these beings leave the garden if it was specifically created for them "as Adam?"
IMO, this idea, while being a remote possibility, raises far more questions than gives any answers.
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Online micah7:9

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2012, 03:37:39 PM »
This is one of those issues about which Paul spoke that we ought not enter "doubtful disputation". There is not enough written in scripture to "teach as sound doctrine" either way- and any opinion held on the interpretation and application of these verses can be held by saints in fellowship with one another and discussed.

None of these positions is suitable for strife and debate since there is not sufficient eveidence to "approve" before all the saints of God.

Jahareesh, you may state your opinions as opinions, but not teach them as systematic theology on the forum, as you have now been told several times. If you continue to take the tone of a "teacher of absolute truth" on this forum, especially concerning topics that have no bearing on the focus point for the board, which is, "the salvation of all" you will be temporarily restricted from being able to participate in these discussions.

 :dsunny:"This is one of those issues about which Paul spoke that we ought not enter "doubtful disputation". There is not enough written in scripture to "teach as sound doctrine" either way- and any opinion held on the interpretation and application of these verses can be held by saints in fellowship with one another and discussed. " Excellent! :HeartThrob:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2012, 03:57:15 PM »
satan was jealous of the dominion God gave Adam over the earth. When God required His angels

  to serve and minister to dam..satan in his pride would not serve a lower creation.

   the significance of the trees in the garden and any jealousy refers to the plantings of God

   in the garden of the earth the family of Adam[I will establish her in the earth[Jerusalem Above]

  Adam is a son of God..Jerusalem Above his Mother..spirit seed from above subjected to vanity

  in this eartht/okogae...men as trees   of righteousness and the planting of God in the earth..are

  hewn down timbers of satan who makes them fall[evil tool/axe/saw] and raised of Christ as temple

  in heaven/see pattern of Solomon for building temple of the Lord.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2012, 04:09:13 PM »
Jer 4:6  The Lord says to the people of Israel and Judah,

5 "I heard a cry of terror,
    a cry of fear and not of peace.
6 Now stop and think!
    Can a man give birth to a child? :eek:
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Offline thinktank

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2012, 03:18:55 AM »
(Forgive me for not spending much time in developing any of the following, only mentioning it instead.  It's interesting to consider the possibility.)

In the parable of the trees in Eden and their jealousy (in Isa., Jer., or Eze., ?) is one indication other sentient beings may have been in the Garden besides Adam, Eve, and the serpent.  The possibility has been shown to me that that Adam had offspring while he still had two sexes before the "curved chamber" was removed from him and built into a woman.  These bi-sexual, androgynous beings were here, but left Eden, then returned in the days of the flood.  There are suggestions from ancient Sumeria of where they went and may even be at this time.

(This is nothing I'm making a plea for people to believe and I'm not going into detail about it right now.  Perhaps someone else knows of this?)

I'm glad you mentioned this as nobody has noticed them before.

I was originally going to use these scriptures as further proof to my theory that mankind lived as spirit beings in  Eden, before being born on the earth as human beings.

My theory though is concerning human beings, not 'other' beings.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 03:49:49 AM by thinktank »