Author Topic: Fallen angels  (Read 8666 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2012, 07:05:43 PM »
Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.
2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.

--Ezra 9


We see here that the Israelites have disobeyed God and continued to consort with the remnant of the nephilim, as seen in the tribes named.  Why would we consider these nephilim?  Because we are told the rulers and the princes have caused it to happen, these rulers and princes being the supernatural agents mentioned in eph 6.


12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

--Eph 6:12



Another translation:

For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

--Eph 6:12



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2012, 07:35:00 PM »
Looking at the word Anak or Anakians gives very little info. Anak=neck, Anakians=long necks. Perhaps some were red :-)


ANAK
ק
‛ânâq
BDB Definition:
Anak = "neck"
1) progenitor of a family, or tribe of the giant people in Canaan
Part of Speech: noun proper masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: the same as H6060
ֲעָנק
‛anāq:
A masculine noun indicating a necklace, a chain. It is used figuratively of wearing parents' instructions around one's neck as a necklace or chain of remembrance (Pro 1:9). It refers to a necklace worn as an ornament or jewelry (Son 4:9). It was used of ornaments worn on animals, camels in particular (Jdg 8:26).

There is very little info about any of this.
Very true. Possibly some of it is hidden by sloppy translations. That's part of the reason I started this thread. Not to fight or prove a fallen angel doctrine; but to collect all info scattered trough the Bible.

Quote
All the conjecture is based on a few verses. Whether the "sons of God" were angels, or not- all conjecture.
And even that won't prove much. If you can prove the Mayan indians were human (or course they were) you still haven't proved all indians were Mayan.

Quote
Maybe they were some other order of created beings.
Or another type of angels. Or among angels it's exactly the same as amaong humans. Some obey God. Other rebel.

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Since, as Jesus described angels- "neither male nor female....."  I kind of doubt that theyre was any crossbreeding at all.
Depends what their powers are. Can angels take on shapes in which that can crossbreed?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2012, 09:13:36 PM »
Well HERE'S a question: are Nephilim and angels the same thing?
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Offline WhiteWings

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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2012, 09:29:19 PM »
Well HERE'S a question: are Nephilim and angels the same thing?

My answer: no.

Nephilim are part human if we go with fallen angel plus human equals nephilim offspring.

Nephilim after death might be demon, but that's another story.

Remember nephilim are called 'gibbor.'

Offline Molly

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2012, 09:39:40 PM »
The scouts give a bad report about the nephilim in Canaan [the promised land]:




31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.

32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.

33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
--Numbers 13

Offline lomarah

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2012, 10:05:01 PM »
Wow... those were some pretty tall people!!! (I'm sure they were exaggerating a bit with the grasshopper analogy... but still...)
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2012, 10:18:13 PM »
Wow... those were some pretty tall people!!! (I'm sure they were exaggerating a bit with the grasshopper analogy... but still...)
Depends http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/giants-or-men/msg39314/#msg39314
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2012, 10:41:54 PM »
O M G!!! THOSE are some BIG skeletons!!!

Maybe grasshoppers was a good analogy...
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2012, 05:09:34 AM »
Hi; had a few minutes, and as I was reading this, WW, your word meanings caught my eye, specifically the part about "casting lots". They cast lots for His robe. That just took on a new meaning for me, in a couple of ways. The soul is the garment of the Spirit. If the Nephilim spirits were present, they were also casting lots, for His garment = us.

It also says those that pierced Him shall see Him. This obviously cannot be those that literally did it, UNLESS, it was the Nephalim spirits IN THEM, that pierced Him. I know in one place it says those that did it, went away not knowing why they had done it, or something to that effect.

And finally, the angels are neither male nor female because they're either/or, but because they're BOTH in one, just as there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus, because there's BOTH. My 2 cents...
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2012, 08:11:28 AM »
Hi; had a few minutes, and as I was reading this, WW, your word meanings caught my eye, specifically the part about "casting lots". They cast lots for His robe. That just took on a new meaning for me, in a couple of ways. The soul is the garment of the Spirit. If the Nephilim spirits were present, they were also casting lots, for His garment = us.

It also says those that pierced Him shall see Him. This obviously cannot be those that literally did it, UNLESS, it was the Nephalim spirits IN THEM, that pierced Him. I know in one place it says those that did it, went away not knowing why they had done it, or something to that effect.

And finally, the angels are neither male nor female because they're either/or, but because they're BOTH in one, just as there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus, because there's BOTH. My 2 cents...

I agree, both- or something else beyond either with roots in both.

 
I don't see however why the "even those who pierced Him" would not include those who literally pierced Him, meaning the enemies of His own table, of His own household, such as Judas, the Pharisees, Herod, etc.....as well as any disembodied spirits or principalites that were in them (by agreement).
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2012, 11:33:15 AM »



(Matt 24:37) And as the days of Noah, so also will be the coming of the Son of man.
(Matt 24:38) For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until that day Noah entered into the ark.

Is the above  also a reference to Nephilim?


(Jude 1:6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness to the judgment of the great day.
(Jude 1:7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

ἕτερος
heteros

Thayer Definition:
1) the other, another, other
1a) to number
1a1) to number as opposed to some former person or thing
1a2) the other of two
1b) to quality
1b1) another: i.e. one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: of uncertain affinity
Citing in TDNT: 2:702, 265

ἕτερος
héteros
; fem. hetéra, neut. héteron, correlative pronoun. Other but different, another.
(I) Particularly and definitely with the art. ho héteros, the other of two where one has been already mentioned (Mat 6:24; Luk 5:7; Luk 7:41; Luk 23:40; 1Co 14:17). In Luk 4:43, in those "other [hetérais] cities" where the gospel has not yet been preached. In distinction from oneself, another person (Rom 2:1; 1Co 4:6; 1Co 14:17; Gal 6:4; Jas 4:12). In Act 20:15, "on the other" (a.t.), implies day meaning the next day, the day after; also Act 27:3.
(II) Indef. and without the art., other, another, some other, equivalent to állos (G243), another, but with a stronger expression of difference.
(A) In Mat 8:21, "another of his disciples"; Luk 8:3; Joh 19:37; Act 1:20; Eph 3:5, "in other ages" means former generations (Sept.: Gen 4:25; Gen 8:10). Joined with tis (G5100), someone indefinitely; héterós tis, some other one, any other (Act 8:34; Act 27:1; Rom 8:39; 1Ti 1:10). Distributively, either repeated as 1Co 15:40, hétera mén . . . hétera dé, some [pl.] . . . and others, or with other pron. (Mat 16:14; Luk 11:16; Luk 14:19-20; 1Co 12:9-10; Sept.: Gen 31:49; Exo 26:3).
(B) Of another kind, another, different, in another form (Mar 16:12; Act 7:18; Rom 7:23; Gal 1:6; Jas 2:25); of a priest from a different line or family (Heb 7:11, Heb 7:15). In the sense of foreign, strange (Jud 1:7; Sept.: Exo 30:9); of other languages (Act 2:4; 1Co 14:21). See glṓssa (G1100, II, C), tongue. Contrast állos (G243), another numerically or coming after. Héteros and héteros repeated, one and another different from each other (1Co 15:40). Different, altered (Luk 9:29).
Deriv.: heteróglōssos (G2084), one of a different tongue; heterodidaskaléō (G2085), to teach a doctrine different than one's own; hetérōs (G2088), otherwise, differently; póteron (G4220), which of two?

héteros/ἕτερος [other, another]

In the NT héteros is used in much the same way as állos, but does not occur in several books (e.g., Mark, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Peter, Revelation). It denotes the new member in a series that either continues (Lk. 14:18ff.) or concludes it (Acts 15:35). It may denote others either of the same kind (Acts 17:34; Lk. 4:34) or of another kind (Lk. 23:32). It may compare or contrast two groups (Acts 23:6), but can also simply denote the next day (Acts 20:15). At times there may be the hint of a qualitative distinction, as in Mt. 11:3 ("Shall we look for another?"); Mk. 16:12 ("another form," i.e., that of a traveler); Lk. 9:29 (Jesus' transfigured face). The "other tongues" of Acts 2:4 may simply refer to tongues as in 10:46; 1 Cor. 12:10; 14:1ff., but in this case "other" would seem to be superfluous, and we should have to assume that, since the later tongues are unintelligible, the true miracle is that the people are granted a gift of understanding, which, in spite of Acts 2:6, 11, is not very convincing. Thus the alternative view that they spoke in foreign languages seems alone to do full justice to the phrase, especially in the light of v. 11 (though cf. the contemptuous reference in v. 13). In Acts 17:7 the point of the charge against Paul is that he is proclaiming a rival to the emperor. In Rom. 7:23 the other law which differs from the holy law of God, and the law of reason that assents to it, is the law of sin that dwells in our members and enslaves us. 1 Cor. 15:40 refers to the different glory of celestial and terrestrial bodies. Eph. 3:5 contrasts the present age of salvation with all preceding generations. Phil. 3:15 may refer either to failure to attain to the preceding insights or to more general divergence from Paul. In Heb. 7:11ff. Jesus is the other priest who, as is shown in detail, both fulfils and transcends Melchizedek. What has come in Jesus is different in the sense that it excludes any other way of salvation (1 Cor. 8:4; Acts 4:12), so that decision is demanded. "another gospel" (Gal. 1:6) is not really another, let alone a better; it is no gospel at all (cf. 2 Cor. 11:4). ho héteros can also be used for the neighbor, a Thou as distinct from the I (cf. Rom. 2:1). The law of Christ is to seek the other's good (1 Cor. 10:24). Self-giving to others fulfils the law (Rom. 13:8). The other here is not a collective concept but denotes the person who in a specific situation crosses my path and whose edification is my concern (1 Cor. 14:17).

Verses using the Greek word heteros/different

(Matt 6:24) No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

(Matt 8:21) And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

(Matt 11:3) And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

(Matt 12:45) Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

(Matt 15:30) And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

(Matt 16:14) And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

(Mark 16:12) After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

(Luke 3:18) And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.

(Luke 4:43) And he said unto them,  I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

(Luke 5:7) And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.

(Luke 6:6) And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

(Luke 7:41) There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.

(Luke 8:3) And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

(Luke 8:6) And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

(Luke 8:7) And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

(Luke 8:8) And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

(Luke 9:29) And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

(Luke 9:56) For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

(Luke 9:59) And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

(Luke 9:61) And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

(Luke 10:1)  After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

(Luke 11:16) And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

(Luke 11:26) Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

(Luke 14:19) And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

(Luke 14:20) And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

(Luke 14:31) Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

(Luke 16:7) Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.

(Luke 16:13) No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

(Luke 16:18) Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

(Luke 17:34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

(Luke 17:35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

(Luke 17:36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

(Luke 18:10) Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

(Luke 19:20) And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

(Luke 20:11) And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.

(Luke 22:58) And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not.

(Luke 22:65) And many other things blasphemously spake they against him.

(Luke 23:32) And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.

(Luke 23:40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

(John 19:37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

(Acts 1:20) For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

(Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

(Acts 2:13)  Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

(Acts 2:40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

(Acts 4:12) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

(Acts 7:18) Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph.

(Acts 8:34) And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

(Acts 12:17) But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go shew these things unto James, and to the brethren. And he departed, and went into another place.

(Acts 13:35) Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

(Acts 15:35) Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

(Acts 17:7) Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.

(Acts 17:21) (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

(Acts 17:34) Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

(Acts 19:39) But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly.

(Acts 20:15) And we sailed thence, and came the next day over against Chios; and the next day we arrived at Samos, and tarried at Trogyllium; and the next day we came to Miletus.

(Acts 23:6) But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

(Acts 27:1) And when it was determined that we should sail into Italy, they delivered Paul and certain other prisoners unto one named Julius, a centurion of Augustus' band.

(Acts 27:3) And the next day we touched at Sidon. And Julius courteously entreated Paul, and gave him liberty to go unto his friends to refresh himself.

(Rom 2:1) Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

(Rom 2:21) Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

(Rom 7:3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

(Rom 7:23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

(Rom 8:39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Rom 13:8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

(Rom 13:9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

(1Cor 3:4) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

(1Cor 4:6) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

(1Cor 6:1) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

(1Cor 8:4) As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

(1Cor 10:24) Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

(1Cor 10:29) Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

(1Cor 12:9)  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

(1Cor 12:10)  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

(1Cor 14:17) For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

(1Cor 14:21) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

(1Cor 15:40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

(2Cor 8:8) I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

(2Cor 11:4) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

(Gal 1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

(Gal 1:19) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

(Gal 6:4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

(Eph 3:5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

(Phil 2:4) Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

(1Tim 1:10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

(2Tim 2:2) And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

(Heb 5:6) As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

(Heb 7:11) If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

(Heb 7:13) For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

(Heb 7:15) And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

(Heb 11:36) And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

(Jas 2:25) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

(Jas 4:12) There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

(Jude 1:7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 11:39:11 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2012, 12:02:56 PM »
Quotes from Josephus concerning Giants www.generationword.com

Get access to the entire text of Josephus here

"For many angels (11- This notion, that the fallen angels were, in some sense, the fathers of the old giants, was the constant opinion of antiquity.) of God accompanied with
women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength;
for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants."

"These kings had laid waste all Syria, and overthrown the offspring of the giants. And when they were come over against Sodom. . ."

"They told them also, that they found at Hebron the posterity of the giants. Accordingly these spies, who had seen the land of Canaan,
when they perceived that all these difficulties were greater there than they had met with since they came out of Egypt, they were aftrighted
at them themselves, and endeavored to affright the multitude also."

"For which reason they removed their camp to Hebron; and when they had taken it, they slew all the inhabitants. There were till then left the
race of giants, who had bodies so large, and countenances so entirely different from other men, that they were surprising to the sight, and
terrible to the hearing. The bones of these men are still shown to this very day, unlike to any credible relations of other men. Now they
gave this city to the Levites as an extraordinary reward. . "

"A little afterward the king made war against the Philistines; and when he had joined battle with them, and put them to flight, he was left
alone, as he was in pursuit of them; and when he was quite tired down, he was seen by one of the enemy, his name was Achmon, the
son of Araph, he was one of the sons of the giants. He had a spear, the handle of which weighed three hundred shekels, and a breastplate
of chain-work, and a sword. He turned back, and ran violently to slay [David] their enemy's king, for he was quite tired out with labor; but
Abishai, Joab's brother, appeared on the sudden, and protected the king with his shield, as he lay down, and slew the enemy. Now the
multitude were very uneasy at these dangers of the king, and that he was very near to be slain; and the rulers made him swear that he
would no more go out with them to battle, lest he should come to some great misfortune by his courage and boldness, and thereby
deprive the people of the benefits they now enjoyed by his means, and of those that they might hereafter enjoy by his living a long time among them. "

"When the king heard that the Philistines were gathered together at the city Gazara, he sent an army against them, when Sibbechai the
Hittite, one of David's most courageous men, behaved himself so as to deserve great commendation, for he slew many of those that
bragged they were the posterity of the giants, and vaunted themselves highly on that account, and thereby was the occasion of victory to the Hebrews."

"They had a man who was six cubits tall, and had on each of his feet and hands one more toe and finger than men naturally have. Now the person
who was sent against them by David out of his army was Jonathan, the son of Shimea, who fought this man in a single combat, and slew him; and
as he was the person who gave the turn to the battle, he gained the greatest reputation for courage therein. This man also vaunted himself to be
of the sons of the giants. But after this fight the Philistines made war no more against the Israelites."
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2012, 12:35:15 PM »
Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei.

2 And the Lord said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.

3 So the Lord our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.

4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan.

5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many.

6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.



11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.

12 And this land, which we possessed at that time, from Aroer, which is by the river Arnon, and half mount Gilead, and the cities thereof, gave I unto the Reubenites and to the Gadites.

13 And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants.

--Deut 3



"giants"

H7497
רפה    רפא
râphâ'  râphâh

Offline Molly

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2012, 12:47:34 PM »
2 Samuel 21

15 Moreover the Philistines had yet war again with Israel; and David went down, and his servants with him, and fought against the Philistines: and David waxed faint.

16 And Ishbibenob, which was of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose spear weighed three hundred shekels of brass in weight, he being girded with a new sword, thought to have slain David.

17 But Abishai the son of Zeruiah succoured him, and smote the Philistine, and killed him. Then the men of David sware unto him, saying, Thou shalt go no more out with us to battle, that thou quench not the light of Israel.

18 And it came to pass after this, that there was again a battle with the Philistines at Gob: then Sibbechai the Hushathite slew Saph, which was of the sons of the giant.

19 And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

20 And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.

21 And when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimeah the brother of David slew him.

22 These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants.

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2012, 03:38:40 PM »
You know there are Cainites after the flood too.  Some people have said that the sons of God are the sons of seth, and the daughters of men were of the line of cain.  Maybe the purpose of the flood was to wipe out all the seed of cain. 

The daughters are the daughters of adam/ground/earthy--demonic

Cain was a murderer from the beginning

The mingled seed and the mingled garments go together because they are speaking of the mingling of the spirit of God and the spirit of man.  The seed within, and the garment on top.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2012, 03:57:00 PM »
Spiritual beings surviving the flood and polluting the gene pool again is possible.
But how can the Cainites pop up after the flood again if we are told everything that breath died. Except 8 in the Ark.
Was one of the 8 a Cainite?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2012, 05:03:50 PM »
Well HERE'S a question: are Nephilim and angels the same thing?

My answer: no.

Nephilim are part human if we go with fallen angel plus human equals nephilim offspring.

Nephilim after death might be demon, but that's another story.

Remember nephilim are called 'gibbor.'

King Saul was a 'gibber' also.  He was a head taller than everyone else. 

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2012, 05:49:28 PM »
possibilities:
spiritual flood only

local flood to the fertile crescent only, maybe the nephilim hadn't spread and there were cainites who had travelled all over the world

one of the 8 was a cainite

the names in the bible are descriptive, symbolic so maybe not the actual lineage from before flood, but representing the carnal man.

two totally separate groups of people, someone after the flood decided that they would call their son cain.  Like naming a baby Adolph  :laughing7:
------------------------------------
 Moses' father in law was a kenite/cainite.  It always made me wonder why they needed to bring along the kenites  in the wilderness to show them the way.  They had the Shekinah cloud leading them.  But they needed some men to help them find their way???  The Kenites became a family of scribes (lying pens of the scribes?).  The sukathies are one of those families and in this thread
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/signs-symbols-and-pagans-oh-my/msg123949/#msg123949
I show the possible etymological link between the sukathites and the king/priest class of people that were started by Nimrod (kucrapes).  So basically we have the creators of religions rearing their head and trying to taint the workings of God all the way from the wilderness.  I believe the kucrapes were the kings, and the suka/sakya were the priests/religion creators.  Nimrod would have been a son of God, being a direct descendant of Noah, if the Kenites were the "primitive" people, not having been under the direct blessings of Noah being in the pure lineage, it would make it more likely for the "lower" humans to worship these "gods".    Those gods who descended from the mountain of God.  Its the same story as the nephilim.  The angels/sons of God whatever they are, came down on Mt. Hermon according to sanchonihion (I think).  Mt. Hermon is Hermes, which is Cush, Nimrods father (also in that link above)

So basically the Kenites could have been the humans in the myth stories, and the gods are the sons of Noah or the sons of Seth/.  The stories of the gods are big conglomerations of Adam/Noah, Cain/Ham, Abel/Japeth, Seth/Shem.  (according to this theory)


Offline eaglesway

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2012, 03:10:18 AM »
Well HERE'S a question: are Nephilim and angels the same thing?

My answer: no.

Nephilim are part human if we go with fallen angel plus human equals nephilim offspring.

Nephilim after death might be demon, but that's another story.

Remember nephilim are called 'gibbor.'

King Saul was a 'gibber' also.  He was a head taller than everyone else.

Saul was a tall man. Yet, he quaked in the presence of GOLIATH, who was apparently a throwback from an Ammonite or an Anakim or Nephil- maybe some loose DNA strands floating around in the human soup? I don't think Saul was as the Nephilim were....such detail was given concerning Goliaths size and the size of his sword and spear and his appendages etc. Saul gained no such notoriety other than he was a head taller than his brethren.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2012, 04:04:55 AM »
I wasn't implying Saul was a half breed.  More like the half breeds may not be angel/human hybrids.  Saul represents the carnal mind being a head taller, and is called a gibbor the same as goliath, and nimrod.  Goliath is beheaded, which we've discussed here before the symbolism of it. 

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2012, 05:44:10 PM »
gotcha :o)
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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2012, 05:56:55 PM »
I think this aspect of how "Man looks on the outward appearance" but "God looks at the heart", especially in regards to how we choose and respond to "leaders" is incredibly important. The books of Samuel and Chronicles/Kings give some of the most insightful views into these things of any writing in all of the Bible or indeed, all of literature.

Eli/Samuel

Saul/David

David/Absalom

Rehoboam

Jeroboam

Ahab/Jehu

For me these histories, when combined with an understanding of their accompanying prophecies in the writings of the prophets (such as Isaiah/Hezekiah's reign, Jeremiah/Zedekiah's reign) provide astounding insights into how God chooses and responds to His stewards.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

jaareshiah

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2012, 04:53:03 AM »
At Genesis 6, it says that "it came about that when men started to grow in numbers on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them, then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose."(Gen 6:1, 2)

At this point, at verse 3, Jehovah God says: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years." Why did God now see the need to set a time limit for mankind's destruction ? Verse 4 says that "the Neph´i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame."

Thus, angelic "sons of God" materialized as men and took women as wives, "all whom they chose", having sexual relations with them, producing giant bullies called "the Nephilim" meaning "Fellers; Those Who Cause [Others] to Fall Down" in death. Because of their violent character, Genesis 6:5 says that "consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time."

These wicked angelic "sons of God" and their offspring, the Nephilim, terrorized the earth, and their impact was such that many followed in their "footsteps" of being violent themselves, so much so, that Genesis 6:6, 7 says that "Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart. So Jehovah said: "I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, from man to domestic animal, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, because I do regret that I have made them."

Moral corruption and violence became so pervasive on the earth due to the wicked influence of former angelic "sons of God" and their offspring, the Nephilim, that Genesis 6:11, 12 says that "the earth came to be ruined in the sight of the [true] God and the earth became filled with violence. So God saw the earth and, look! it was ruined, because all flesh had ruined its way on the earth."

At Jude 6, Jude wrote that "the angels that did not keep their original position (in heaven) but forsook their own proper dwelling place (in heaven) he (Jehovah God) has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day." Jude further wrote that these wicked angels "committed fornication excessively and (had) gone out after flesh for unnatural use" (Jude 7), by materializing and having sexual relations with "daughters of men".

The global flood forced the wicked angelic "sons of God" to dematerialize and go back into the spirit realm, having to abandon their offspring, the Nephilim, who died during the Noachian Flood.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Fallen angels
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2012, 05:38:23 AM »
Didn't the children of Israel run into some Nephilim in Cannan?

Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, "We should by all means go up and take possession of it, for we will surely overcome it." But the men who had gone up with him said, "We are not able to go up against the people, for they are too strong for us." So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, "The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size. "There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."
(Num 13:30-33)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com