Author Topic: Eon and Eonian  (Read 2293 times)

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DeeDee

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Eon and Eonian
« on: November 02, 2008, 11:16:48 AM »
In view again of "unpardonable sins" (blasphemy) lots of bible translation software translate eternal into Eon and Eonian. Since I don't know how much accuracy I can put to
online dictionary translations I would like your views. Thanks


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Dee

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2008, 11:44:39 AM »
Jude 1:6            .... he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. => everlasting ends at the great day
Jude 1:7                 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha .... suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.=> the cities stopped burning long ago.
Isaiah 34:9-10     .... shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever => Edom doesn't burn anymore
Hebrews 5:9            And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; => became is a one time act.
Hebrews 9:12     .... but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. => The 'entering' ended but the salvation lasts.
Hebrews 9:28          So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Now, as an example, lets translated aionis to eternity in every verse and see if it makes sense
2 Timothy 1:9   ...  which was given us in Christ Jesus before the eternity began => there can be nothing before eternity.
Romans 16:25  .... which was kept secret since the eternity began,  => there can be nothing before eternity.
Matthew 13:39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of eternity => eternity has no end
Hebrews 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of eternity to come, => eternity can't come because it is without beginning.
Romans 16:26  .... according to the commandment of the everlasting God => God of this time. Meaning God who created time.

There is "the coming eon" (Matt.10:30, Luke 18:30
There is "the present wicked eon" (Gal.1:4)
There is "the oncoming eons (future)(Eph.2:7)
There is "the conclusion of the eon (present) (Mt.13:39,40)
There is "the secret concealed from the eons (past) (Eph.3:9)

Revelation 20:10  ... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (aion and aion)
Why stating this when 'aion' is supposed to mean eternity?
If the noun 'aion' means eternity why is there a plural 'aionios' form? There can't be multiple eternities.
=> for the meaning of torment see the "Judgment=Grace" chapter
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2008, 11:45:33 AM »
1) BEFORE THE AGES (or AGE) - 1Cor.2:7; 2Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25.
2) PRESENT AGE (singular) - Gal.1:4; I Tim. 6:17; 2Tim.4:10; Titus 2:12.
3) THIS AGE (singular) - Luke 16:8; 1Cor.1:20; 2:6-8; Rom.12:2; Eph.2:2.
4) END OF AGE (singular) - Matt.13:39,40; 24:3 [The end of an age is clearly shown in these verses.]
5) END OF THE AGES (i.e. relative to the existence of SIN) - Heb.9:26 [Ages, in the plural come to an end.]
6) THE COMING AGE (singular) - Matt.12:32: Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Eph.1:21; Heb.6:5 [The coming age will begin at the Second Coming of Christ.]
7) AGES (plural) TO COME - Eph.2:7 [More ages are to begin in the future.]
8) FUTURE AGES (plural) - Luke 1:33; Heb.13:8.
9) PLAN OF THE AGES (plural) - Eph.3:11; Heb.1:2; 11:3.
10) AGE OF THE AGE - Heb.1:8 (Also the rendering of the LXX) [Note that both words are in the singular here.]
11) AGE OF THE AGES - Eph.3:21 (Note that the first word is singular followed by a plural.)
12) AGES OF THE AGES (not eternal when all Bible contexts compared) - Rev.14:11; 19:3 [Note the plural of both words.]
13) THERE WILL BE FUTURE AGES - Jude25.
14) THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIMES - Eph.1:10 [This describes the final period for salvation
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2008, 11:48:48 AM »
The above 2 posts is what I've collected sofar. Quality stuff can be found on the main TentMaker site.

All the above examples show verses that originally used aion but where translated to words like forever.
As the verse quoted show that very often/never makes any sense.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

HappyBoy!

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2008, 12:39:12 AM »
My pastor quoted "AGES OF THE AGES" in church the other day and went on to say that it "represented" eternity.  He didn't say anthing about the "END OF THE AGES".  I'll have to ask him what this "represents".  If I know him he'll have a pat answer.  I just keep asking questions  :happygrin:

Offline sven

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 08:14:43 PM »
this is interesting, an annihilationist admits that aionios means age-abiding, but he claims the age to come is eternal:

Quote
In light of all this information regarding aionios zoe it becomes clear that the phrase "eternal life" in its original Hebraic context refers to "age-lasting life" "the life of the age to come" or "life in the age to come" (Wright 7). Since the age to come is never-ending, "eternal life" (or "everlasting life") is a very sound translation.


http://www.hell-know.net/#d

Offline sven

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 09:08:49 PM »


Exodus 21,6

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (KJV)

προσαξει αυτον ο κυριος αυτου προς το κριτηριον του θεου και τοτε προσαξει αυτον επι την θυραν επι τον σταθμον και τρυπησει αυτου ο κυριος το ους τω οπητιω και δουλευσει αυτω εις τον αιωνα (LXX)

offeret eum dominus diis et adplicabitur ad ostium et postes perforabitque aurem eius subula et erit ei servus in saeculum (Vulgata)

Deuteronomium 15,17

Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise. (KJV)

και λημψη το οπητιον και τρυπησεις το ωτιον αυτου προς την θυραν και εσται σοι οικετης εις τον αιωνα και την παιδισκην σου ποιησεις ωσαυτως (LXX)

adsumes subulam et perforabis aurem eius in ianua domus tuae et serviet tibi usque in aeternum ancillae quoque similiter facies (Vulgata)


the most interesting thing is, that the vulgata has the same greek expression in saeculum (age) and in aeternum ("eternal"), saeculum means without doubt not eternal, Jerome seems to have used saeculum and aeternum in the same sense, so i quess aeternum hasn't meant endless then and neither did aion











Offline sven

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 12:01:37 PM »
can anyone find out, which hebrew word was translated here with aionios:

Isaiah 54,4 Masoretic Text

אל־תיראי כי־לא תבושי ואל־תכלמי כי לא תחפירי כי בשת עלומיך תשכחי וחרפת אלמנותיך לא תזכרי־עוד׃

Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

LXX

μη φοβου οτι κατησχυνθης μηδε εντραπης οτι ωνειδισθης οτι αισχυνην αιωνιον επιληση και ονειδος της χηρειας σου ου μη μνησθηση

Fear not, because thou has been put to shame, neither be confounded, because thou was reproached: for thou shalt forget thy former shame, and shalt no more at all remember the reproach of thy widowhood.

it seems, the translators of the septuagint translated this word: http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=05934

into greek aionios, it seems also the Hebrew word is similar to olam

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=05769
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 02:53:28 PM by sven »

Offline fullarmor2

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2009, 10:37:54 PM »
     I have  a quick question or two.    While talking to someone,   they told me that they looked up aionios in their lexicon and it defined the word as everlasting.  What would you say to this person?     And does anyone know where I can get a lexicon that defines aionios the right way?   Thanks .
For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2009, 11:42:09 PM »
    I have  a quick question or two.    While talking to someone,   they told me that they looked up aionios in their lexicon and it defined the word as everlasting.  What would you say to this person?     And does anyone know where I can get a lexicon that defines aionios the right way?   Thanks .

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal/aionios fire.

Does Sodom stil burn? No then at best eternal can be one of the defenitions instead of the only one.

There is also a verse that states Sodom will be restored.

Ezekiel 16:55  When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Ahum! Something to make a simple answer complicated....  :laughing7:
Hebrews 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal/aionios salvation unto all them that obey him;
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 11:57:09 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline fullarmor2

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 04:40:15 AM »
   Thanks WW.    And yes,    what scripture says and how it defines itself by context is the final authority.  
 Its so obvious that lexicographers,  responsible for handling aionios like that,  believed in ET to begin with.  Or they were influenced in their work by ET believing religious leaders.    Because they define aion right,  but then all of a sudden the adjective form of aion only means everlasting.   :rolleye:  
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 05:32:18 AM by fullarmor2 »
For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Offline sven

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2009, 03:54:31 PM »
     I have  a quick question or two.    While talking to someone,   they told me that they looked up aionios in their lexicon and it defined the word as everlasting.  What would you say to this person?     And does anyone know where I can get a lexicon that defines aionios the right way?   Thanks .

Liddel Scott -> www.perseus.org

a further argument might be the meanings of aion, aionios should basically have the same meanings as the noun has + Romans 16:25, Titus 1:2, 2Timothy 1:9; "aeonian times" in all three verses, which had either beginning or end, but this verses are completely mistranslated in almost all bibles.


HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2009, 01:21:42 AM »
the best I can come up with in a spur of the moment is at

scholars corner at tentmakers site

An Analytical Study by Louis Abbott

Yeshua-Song

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2009, 01:29:07 AM »
to Lee: how did a Russian speaker get a name like Lee?  :laughing7:

HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2009, 02:33:17 AM »
my web based email offers many endings like

.com
.ru
.fr         and hundreds of others.

I am in the state of Maine.

HappyBoy!

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2009, 05:11:49 AM »
the best I can come up with in a spur of the moment is at

scholars corner at tentmakers site

An Analytical Study by Louis Abbott

An Analytical Study of Words by Louis Abbott

That is a great book, one of my pillars.  After reading it online a number of times I recently bought paper copies to give to friends.  Also on the tentmaker site is a video of Gary interviewing him.  I cut it to audio and listen to it on my MP3 from time to time.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2009, 11:23:29 AM »
my web based email offers many endings like

.com
.ru
.fr         and hundreds of others.

I am in the state of Maine.

I thought you where from Leeningrad :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2009, 02:32:56 PM »
 :mblush: :dontknow:  What Up.   sinfree@gmx.com

Lee

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 04:05:52 PM »
:mblush: :dontknow:  What Up.   sinfree@gmx.com

Lee
Indeed .com
Didn't you have a .ru email or site? (I have .com and .de adresses and don't live in neither area)

.Reconciliation Universal  :thumbsup:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2009, 04:23:12 PM »
just go to www.gmx.com and check out their options

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2009, 04:56:00 PM »
just go to www.gmx.com and check out their options
I know the site Lee.
I use it daily. For I guess 10 years by now. It was the first provider offering a 1 GB mail box (for free)
In case you misunderstood me it was just a joke. I don't care what adress you use or where you live/where born.
But .ru is UR in reverse so perhaps the best one in a funny way.
 :thumbsup:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2009, 11:40:06 PM »
k

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2009, 02:33:34 AM »
Bob Evely and Gerry Beauchamin both have books available through Tentmaker (I think free) and both books have clear concise sections on aion, aionion, eternal, everlasting etc. and the etymology and ancient usage as well as biblical usage. I gave Evely's book to a pastor a month ago and last week he proclaimed the salvation of all to his congregation. He was previously and annihilationist. Peace.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline fullarmor2

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2009, 07:58:49 PM »
I gave Evely's book to a pastor a month ago and last week he proclaimed the salvation of all to his congregation.

      Wow!   Thats awesome. 
For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Offline fullarmor2

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Re: Eon and Eonian
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2009, 08:26:37 PM »

Liddel Scott -> www.perseus.org


a further argument might be the meanings of aion, aionios should basically have the same meanings as the noun has + Romans 16:25, Titus 1:2, 2Timothy 1:9; "aeonian times" in all three verses, which had either beginning or end, but this verses are completely mistranslated in almost all bibles.

     Thanks for the link!  It seems like a scholarly place as well. :thumbsup:     It  explained aionios as "lasting for an age".   Or,  lasting during an age, I would think.  Or,  pertaining to the ages.    Even where aionios is used in scripture referring to God.    You simply need to understand that those scriptures are NOT referring to God's immortality, or the fact that God has no beginning or end.   There are other scriptures that reveal that to us.   The scriptures describing God or the things of God which use aionios ,   are simply  teaching us that God is the God of the ages.  The King of the ages.  Or they are referring to God's "eonian" kingdom for example.  Or the gift of life in the eonian kingdom.  

For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!