Author Topic: Translation of ALL in bible. Greek PAS question/confusion?!?!  (Read 428 times)

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Offline musicman

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Translation of ALL in bible. Greek PAS question/confusion?!?!
« on: February 26, 2013, 02:17:25 AM »
Hello good people.  I have been studying the concept of universalism the last few months and i'm finding it heart opening and very interesting.  I have come across something that people seem to use as a argument against universalism.  The transaltion of the word ALL. 
read this link:

http://www.lovewins.us/bible/strongs/G3956

notice description 2b)  some of all types.  So does this not meen ALL? everyone?  just some of all the types?  is this translation legit?  HELP!
haha

Adam.

Offline misszoolander

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Re: Translation of ALL in bible. Greek PAS question/confusion?!?!
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 03:24:32 AM »
Hi Adam,

IMO I think whether all means all (everyone) depends on the context of the passage.
Here is an example of a passage that many differ in opinion -

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. NIV (I did not choose this verse because of your name BTW  :LH:)

Who died in Adam? Every human, who is made alive in Christ? Every human that died in Adams sin, which leads us to acknowledging ALL humans.

We must also look at the context of Corinthians 15 as a whole.
Here Paul is talking about the resurrection, the all that were made alive in Christ. He then continues to explain in 1 Corinthians 15 what should happen to the resurrected (which we have determined to be all people)

21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. Who is Paul referring to as all here? Remember the context of 1 Corinthians 15 is the resurrection of all.

When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. People have ONE kind of flesh, not dependent on whether they are under the grace of God or not. Adam is the flesh which his sin we inherit, Christ is the quickening spirit, the last Adam, we shall all have his imprint and inherit his Image.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[h]

55 "Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Here Paul proclaims the victorious work of the cross, there is no suggestion at all of exclusion in what I have read of the whole passage.

So does all mean all in 1 Corinthians? I think so :)
It is well with my soul.

Offline musicman

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Re: Translation of ALL in bible. Greek PAS question/confusion?!?!
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 04:44:01 AM »
Thanks a lot for your detailed response.  I'm sure the more one follows down this road many questions arise!  I'm glad there are some people here who have had these questions answered and can share them!  Thanks!   I'm just wondering how the word "us" is translated from the greek in this passage,
57 But thanks be to God! He gives US the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I'm sure it means all of us.  I'm the kind of person who needs proof till the end haha. 

Is there an online or downloadable version of the King james with the original greek and proper tranlations commentary as well?  thanks you!

Adam.

Offline misszoolander

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Re: Translation of ALL in bible. Greek PAS question/confusion?!?!
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 05:37:13 AM »
No prob  :thumbsup:

The Greek word for "us" in 1 Corinthians 15:57 is hemin (hJmi'n Strong's number 2254). There are other words for "us" such as hemas and hemon. The reason Paul used "hemin" is because it is the dative case plural of ego, the Greek word for me, I, my. 

To simplify,

"He gives us [hemin dative case plural for ego or myself] the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ"

It is clear he is talking to his fellow believers in this passage as the text is written for them, however it is unclear whether he is excluding unbelievers in verse 57 and just because he is talking to fellow believers does not necessarily mean he intentionally excludes believers from this sentence. I am certain that the the "victory" lies with humankind as a whole as that is more in context with "As in Adam all die. even so in Christ shall all be made alive". Paul used such contrasts to prove his point. :)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 05:41:06 AM by misszoolander »
It is well with my soul.

Offline marie glen

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Re: Translation of ALL in bible. Greek PAS question/confusion?!?!
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 05:39:23 AM »
hi! I have books I use but there's an online version I used to use, it looks like it might be this one (if I'm remembering the site correctly):
http://www.biblestudytools.com/concordances/strongs-exhaustive-concordance/

I googled "king james strong's concordance online". My first choice of words didn't bring anything up that was relevant, but this one did.

This second one though looks like you need the greek or hebrew word number and it takes it from there.. but it just may come in useful
http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

But I think the first link, "biblestudytools.com" looks like it starts with the Bible verse numbers (like I remember)
(He)will shake heavens & earth--it is against every high tower--He shall judge between nations..they shall beat their swords into plowshares--blessed the one who reveres the Lord--they will never be shaken--a plague of gReat hail(debris)--when the towers fall--(so)Come out my people
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
~Heb12:27&Haggai2:6;Is2:15;Is2:4;Ps112:1,6;theRev-vision 16:21;Is30:25;Rev ch18~
my BLoG ~ http://inner-monastery.blogspot.com

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Translation of ALL in bible. Greek PAS question/confusion?!?!
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2013, 05:51:36 AM »
You might use a Lamsa Bible for comparison, as it is independent (as I understand it) from the Greek language.  :2c:
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline marie glen

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Re: Translation of ALL in bible. Greek PAS question/confusion?!?!
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 05:53:17 AM »
P.S.- actually there's quite a list! a few years ago there was, as far as I knew, just the one (maybe two)! google search: https://www.google.com/search?q=king+james+strong%27s+concordance+online&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

That's very interesting about the "us"! how it's an expansion upon ego.. meaning plural, etc, and the whole question concerning it.. Just think! All the us, and everyone who ever believes how very greatly we are helped! And just think too, many reject UR because they think it is a system of everyone saved without believing in Jesus! When if more would slow down and hear.. how all will be saved in Jesus!! There still is not other salvation under heaven.. have you ever considered how the notorious phrase "those not believing will go to the 2nd death" is not spoken nor heard until [1] all have experienced being resurrected from their grave, whether 1st totally victorious one or 2nd, still in their imperfection one, and [2] have lived through and witnessed a day of the examination of all things, all history, etc, which surely will be a very long day indeed (I think is 500 years but won't go into the Biblical reasons now (has to do with the spring and fall holy days as prophecy of the 1st and 2nd advents).. After experiencing and living through all that, resurrection and judgment day(age?).. who's not going to "believe"??  :cloud9:  :2c:
 
(He)will shake heavens & earth--it is against every high tower--He shall judge between nations..they shall beat their swords into plowshares--blessed the one who reveres the Lord--they will never be shaken--a plague of gReat hail(debris)--when the towers fall--(so)Come out my people
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
~Heb12:27&Haggai2:6;Is2:15;Is2:4;Ps112:1,6;theRev-vision 16:21;Is30:25;Rev ch18~
my BLoG ~ http://inner-monastery.blogspot.com

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Translation of ALL in bible. Greek PAS question/confusion?!?!
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2013, 06:51:44 AM »
Marie, I thought it was those whose names were not written in the Book of Life who went to the second death.  Maybe everyone will "believe" just before the casting into the LoF begins, but will there be a lot of "Oh, ____!" throughout the mass of humanity? :dunno2:
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.