Author Topic: Michelle  (Read 5752 times)

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Offline Dallas

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2010, 08:19:26 PM »
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What was the nation of God then?

Since the comming of Christ on the clouds in 70 AD, the bringing down of the Temple and the destruction of Jerusalem Christ sat as King of all creation, the new King appointed on Mount Zion and He claimed all of creation as His new Kingdom.

So since 70 AD, Jesus has been king over all and all are subjects in His kingdom, even so as is now. Hitler was one of the many who have, is and will come who will try to have thier own peice of that kingdom. Just as Stalin, Atila the Hun, Mao etc.

The nation is usually percieved as the believers as a body of people, but there are also the nations boarders. And just as with other nations, there are rebels and those who cause dissention, but all these people do these things from within the nation, not from the outside.

These "evil" men were no different. God used other groups to unite against them as it will be until the message of grace spreads to all about thier acceptance.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2010, 08:40:08 PM »
Quote
What was the nation of God then?

Since the comming of Christ on the clouds in 70 AD, the bringing down of the Temple and the destruction of Jerusalem Christ sat as King of all creation, the new King appointed on Mount Zion and He claimed all of creation as His new Kingdom.

So since 70 AD, Jesus has been king over all and all are subjects in His kingdom, even so as is now. Hitler was one of the many who have, is and will come who will try to have thier own peice of that kingdom. Just as Stalin, Atila the Hun, Mao etc.

The nation is usually percieved as the believers as a body of people, but there are also the nations boarders. And just as with other nations, there are rebels and those who cause dissention, but all these people do these things from within the nation, not from the outside.

These "evil" men were no different. God used other groups to unite against them as it will be until the message of grace spreads to all about thier acceptance.


So is this nation spiritual?  If not you need to explain what the nation and it's borders mean in terms of the kingdom of God against the kingdom of God. Since 70ad nations of earth have risen up against one another, so how is that not the kingdom of God against the kingdom of God?






Offline Dallas

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2010, 09:01:32 PM »
Hey Paul;

Its both spiritual and literal. We are literaly within the boarders of the nation of Heaven. We are within His kingdom. Just as I am in Canada, Canada is within North America, North America is within the Norther Hemisphere, which is within the Milky Way Galaxy which is within creation which is within the Kingdom of Heaven.

As far as nation vs. nation.

When I was growing up I had my room and my sister had her room, yet we still lived in my Mother's house. There were times when my sister and I were at "war" with each other, yet we still remained in "Mother's house." It wasn't Mother's House vs. Mother's house even though it was taking place within her house.

As is creation now, if one nation wars with another, it's not KOH vs KOH, it's brother vs. brother. Just as was with my sister and I, it's Parents who will ultimatley deal with the conflict.


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2010, 09:09:52 PM »
Hey Paul;

Its both spiritual and literal. We are literaly within the boarders of the nation of Heaven. We are within His kingdom. Just as I am in Canada, Canada is within North America, North America is within the Norther Hemisphere, which is within the Milky Way Galaxy which is within creation which is within the Kingdom of Heaven.

As far as nation vs. nation.

When I was growing up I had my room and my sister had her room, yet we still lived in my Mother's house. There were times when my sister and I were at "war" with each other, yet we still remained in "Mother's house." It wasn't Mother's House vs. Mother's house even though it was taking place within her house.

As is creation now, if one nation wars with another, it's not KOH vs KOH, it's brother vs. brother. Just as was with my sister and I, it's Parents who will ultimatley deal with the conflict.



You have given me a lot to consider,  thanks.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2010, 09:19:08 PM »
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You have given me a lot to consider,  thanks.

Cool, it's much easier to get a message across when there is only two people talking at once, LOL!

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2010, 03:52:00 AM »
While people are often stupified facing just the change that comes when we put off this form, Jesus manifested in at least eight forms mentioned in Scripture.  To become another form He had to die to the previous.  If we pick it up about Philippians 2 we find He was, "Inherently in the form of God," and, "deems it not pillaging to be equal with God." From this expression of identity is His "self-emptying" (Grk:  kenosis.) This was a process, from a place upon high to descend into clothing Himself with a female form, an egg in Mary, which crushed the head of the nachash ("serpent, hissing divination.")  Then He was a man, a lowly slave, which is where He can say, "My Father is greater than I."  Then He was obedient to the death of the cross.  In the form of a Spirit He preached to the dead.  Then He was resurrected as an incorruptible immortal.

Next He ascends into the right hand of God so was able to send Himself into us as Spirit. This is the form He is in right now, on the right of God and present as the head of us, His body, through His indwelling Spirit within us.  This form He is in now is not apparent to the world; but, we see Him.  The next phase He will be revealed, coming forth from whence He dwells:  within us in the heavenlies.

I say that to say His reign is within us because He is in us, but still a mystery to the world.  The world is still in, "...offenses and sins in which once you walked, in accord with the eon of this world, in accord with the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, the spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness..." (Eph 2:1-2, CLT)

Philippians 2:5-7 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
5 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The rule of God in His people has some extension into the world by that means, through us.  Otherwise the world is in darkness and God's reign has yet to manifest outwardly.  When we are brought to inherit the liberation of our physical bodies by being born of the Resurrection, then shall the kingdom of God be revealed to the rest of the world and His, "Will be done, in earth as it is in the heavens." And we shall reign in all the earth!
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 04:06:02 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #81 on: April 29, 2010, 05:56:22 AM »
 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Dallas

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2010, 07:48:50 AM »
Quote
While people are often stupified facing just the change that comes when we put off this form, Jesus manifested in at least eight forms mentioned in Scripture.  To become another form He had to die to the previous.  If we pick it up about Philippians 2 we find He was, "Inherently in the form of God," and, "deems it not pillaging to be equal with God." From this expression of identity is His "self-emptying" (Grk:  kenosis.) This was a process, from a place upon high to descend into clothing Himself with a female form, an egg in Mary, which crushed the head of the nachash ("serpent, hissing divination.")  Then He was a man, a lowly slave, which is where He can say, "My Father is greater than I."  Then He was obedient to the death of the cross.  In the form of a Spirit He preached to the dead.  Then He was resurrected as an incorruptible immortal.

Next He ascends into the right hand of God so was able to send Himself into us as Spirit. This is the form He is in right now, on the right of God and present as the head of us, His body, through His indwelling Spirit within us.  This form He is in now is not apparent to the world; but, we see Him.  The next phase He will be revealed, coming forth from whence He dwells:  within us in the heavenlies.

I say that to say His reign is within us because He is in us, but still a mystery to the world.  The world is still in, "...offenses and sins in which once you walked, in accord with the eon of this world, in accord with the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, the spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness..." (Eph 2:1-2, CLT)

Philippians 2:5-7 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
5 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The rule of God in His people has some extension into the world by that means, through us.  Otherwise the world is in darkness and God's reign has yet to manifest outwardly.  When we are brought to inherit the liberation of our physical bodies by being born of the Resurrection, then shall the kingdom of God be revealed to the rest of the world and His, "Will be done, in earth as it is in the heavens." And we shall reign in all the earth!

Reformer, I think everything you said was complete imaginary, and honestly has nothing to do with the bible. Sorry that my opinion is different, but nothing you said is biblical. Unless you reach into the bible and pull things out indisciminatley and re-translate them to something they never meant to begin with.


So to balance what Cardinal said,  :dontknow: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2010, 06:22:04 PM »

Dallas,
You're out of balance!

Zeek

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2010, 06:30:19 PM »

Dallas,
You're out of balance!

"But the freedom I have recieved through what I believe has changed my life...

Galatians 5:1 "For it is freedom that Christ has set you free"  (quote by Dallas)



if that's out of balance, then I want some.  :)

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2010, 06:42:50 PM »

Zeek,
From this we can see how easily things that are right in front of us are unseen.

I was simply referring to the balance of images.

Cardinal posted three thumbs up

Dallas posted only two thumbs down.

Cardinal is leading by 33.333∞


Offline Nathan

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2010, 07:02:16 PM »
Quote
While people are often stupified facing just the change that comes when we put off this form, Jesus manifested in at least eight forms mentioned in Scripture.  To become another form He had to die to the previous.  If we pick it up about Philippians 2 we find He was, "Inherently in the form of God," and, "deems it not pillaging to be equal with God." From this expression of identity is His "self-emptying" (Grk:  kenosis.) This was a process, from a place upon high to descend into clothing Himself with a female form, an egg in Mary, which crushed the head of the nachash ("serpent, hissing divination.")  Then He was a man, a lowly slave, which is where He can say, "My Father is greater than I."  Then He was obedient to the death of the cross.  In the form of a Spirit He preached to the dead.  Then He was resurrected as an incorruptible immortal.

Next He ascends into the right hand of God so was able to send Himself into us as Spirit. This is the form He is in right now, on the right of God and present as the head of us, His body, through His indwelling Spirit within us.  This form He is in now is not apparent to the world; but, we see Him.  The next phase He will be revealed, coming forth from whence He dwells:  within us in the heavenlies.

I say that to say His reign is within us because He is in us, but still a mystery to the world.  The world is still in, "...offenses and sins in which once you walked, in accord with the eon of this world, in accord with the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, the spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness..." (Eph 2:1-2, CLT)

Philippians 2:5-7 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
5 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The rule of God in His people has some extension into the world by that means, through us.  Otherwise the world is in darkness and God's reign has yet to manifest outwardly.  When we are brought to inherit the liberation of our physical bodies by being born of the Resurrection, then shall the kingdom of God be revealed to the rest of the world and His, "Will be done, in earth as it is in the heavens." And we shall reign in all the earth!

Reformer, I think everything you said was complete imaginary, and honestly has nothing to do with the bible. Sorry that my opinion is different, but nothing you said is biblical. Unless you reach into the bible and pull things out indisciminatley and re-translate them to something they never meant to begin with.


So to balance what Cardinal said,  :dontknow: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

Hmmm . . . wouldn't it have been a little more edifying for all if the response to reFORMer would have been "I'm in a different place right now" rather than attempting to regard reFORMer's perception of what is being seen as degradingly wrong?  The bluntness of the response distracts everyone from the intent of the thread.

Upon rereading your response previous to your last, you were stating that things are both spiritual and literal.  You went on to explain that you are in Canada, but also in the northern hemisphere and your reference to nation agianst nation, you went "inward" to the nations of thought and principles within us rise up against other nations of thought and principles. 

I'm not looking to get into yet another sparring match, but how is what you said any different to what reFORMer was doing?  he even blended Scirpture in with what he was saying and yet you declared it was unbiblical?  There are many on this forum who don't all agree with what I project, but telling them they're wrong and I'm right is only setting the atmosphere for a fight and another locked thread.

I "want" to grow from people like reFORMer.  I want to absorb the things they see through their relationship with the Father so that I can rejoice with them and advance my own relationship with the Father at the same time.  None of us have the entire package.  I believe my experiences teach me more than knowledge from another.  And in my expeireinces, I've learned that no one really has the authority to deny and discredit another for their point of views.  I want to use the sword to stab others to life, not death.

Zeek

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2010, 07:22:16 PM »

Zeek,
From this we can see how easily things that are right in front of us are unseen.

I was simply referring to the balance of images.

Cardinal posted three thumbs up

Dallas posted only two thumbs down.

Cardinal is leading by 33.333∞


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Offline Dallas

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2010, 07:38:42 PM »
Quote
Hmmm . . . wouldn't it have been a little more edifying for all if the response to reFORMer would have been "I'm in a different place right now" rather than attempting to regard reFORMer's perception of what is being seen as degradingly wrong?  The bluntness of the response distracts everyone from the intent of the thread.

Hmmmm.....hey Nathan. I'm in a different place right now about how I respond to people."

But if you desire sugar coating go buy a donut. I simply call it as I see it, and I believe people deserve truth not some sideways confusion as I try to tippy-toe around their feelings.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2010, 07:45:42 PM »
Ok, now to your more interesting and non-controlling response,

Quote
Upon rereading your response previous to your last, you were stating that things are both spiritual and literal.  You went on to explain that you are in Canada, but also in the northern hemisphere and your reference to nation agianst nation, you went "inward" to the nations of thought and principles within us rise up against other nations of thought and principles.

I actually don't follow what you are trying to say here. Could you re-word it?

Quote
I'm not looking to get into yet another sparring match, but how is what you said any different to what reFORMer was doing?  he even blended Scirpture in with what he was saying and yet you declared it was unbiblical?  There are many on this forum who don't all agree with what I project, but telling them they're wrong and I'm right is only setting the atmosphere for a fight and another locked thread.


We'll, if you read what you suggested, then you will see that nothing I was talking about was with Reformer, but instead with mR. Hazelwood. We had a good conversation and reformer started up a different thought, I was responding to the different thought and direction he was going. I don't even think he was responding to what Hazelwood and I were talking about.

Quote
I "want" to grow from people like reFORMer.  I want to absorb the things they see through their relationship with the Father so that I can rejoice with them and advance my own relationship with the Father at the same time.  None of us have the entire package.  I believe my experiences teach me more than knowledge from another.  And in my expeireinces, I've learned that no one really has the authority to deny and discredit another for their point of views.  I want to use the sword to stab others to life, not death.

Well, go ahead then, don't let my opinion stop you from reading what he said...gonna let you in on a secret....not everyone sees things the way you do. You will have people who disagree....you need to let them.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #90 on: April 29, 2010, 08:14:58 PM »
Disagreeing is a good thing.  It can still be a possitive experience.  We "nee" to be different otherwise we'd lose the uniqueness of God's nature.  I have absolutely no issues with people seeing things differently.  It's the declarations of one being wrong over another being right that makes me cringe.  That's all I was trying to say with that.  If I can walk away from a disagreement and still be edified at the same time, then we've accomplished something special.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2010, 08:44:42 PM »
Quote
Disagreeing is a good thing.  It can still be a possitive experience.  We "nee" to be different otherwise we'd lose the uniqueness of God's nature.  I have absolutely no issues with people seeing things differently.  It's the declarations of one being wrong over another being right that makes me cringe.  That's all I was trying to say with that.  If I can walk away from a disagreement and still be edified at the same time, then we've accomplished something special.

Whenever someone asserts their opinion, they do so with a belief that they are right. So if you want a conversation where none thinks they are right you will need to talk about the weather. But when expressing yourself you do so with an inclination towards what you think is right.

Don't pretend to think that just because I openly say what I know, that means that I am the only one who thinks what they believe is right. I say what I believe because I believe it is correct, just as you do. I just don't pretend to be open-minded, I am open-minded, the information also has to be convincing with sound biblical understanding not mystical gnosticism.

I call the kettle black when it is, I also live by, "You need to be willing to be wrong", I have sifted through abunch of garbage and when I see that stuff I will say what it is.

Offline willieH

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2010, 08:59:40 PM »
willieH: Hi Michelle... :welcome:

Your :welcome: or intial post has become quite the discussion... Actually this forum is for one to introduce themselves to the fam, and other categories are reserved for this type of discussion.

Would you consider telling us about yourself? :dunno:

Anyhoo, (though I have not read the entire thread)... here is my  :2c: concerning the question you have proposed...  :wink1:

Just wondering if anyone has a link about the genicide in the Bible? I don't seem to be able to find a reason why God said DO NOT KILL and then told them to KILL THEM ALL...including innocent babies & children...I always was told that He was purging the land and the blood line for Chirst or because those nations were the nations sacrificing children to pagan gods (satan), etc...but then God ends up justifying killing children, etc by genicide. And what about "love your enemies and do good to them". Anyways, just a question I've been thinking about...

As I see it...

When one endeavors to observe the 2 covenants... one should (if one seeks SPIRITUAL understanding of them, and how they relate to one another),  begin [IMO], by applying DIVINE order to them:

1 Cor 15:46 --- howbeit, that was NOT FIRST which IS SPIRITUAL, but that which is NATURAL [= old covenant]; and ...AFTERWARD... that which IS SPIRITUAL [= new covenant].

The Old Covenant is:  GOD dealing with Man as --- Man deals with Man... "LAW, vengence, and eye for eye (individual DEATH) repayment (justice) for (AN individual's) LAWLESSNESS"...  Containing hidden pictures of the NEW, through the NATURAL approach... concerning the demands of JUSTICE...

The New Covenant is:  GOD dealing with Man as --- GOD deals with Man... "GRACE, forgiveness, and LOVE's (individual DEATH) repayment (justice) for (ALL individual) LAWLESSNESS...  and is the FULFILLMENT of the OLD revealing that which was hidden, through the approach of GRACE... concerning the demands of JUSTICE...

Part of the "picture" found in the observation of "killing" (in the OT) as ordered by the divine, is the COMPLETE ELIMINATION of that which TAINTS (matured/purposeful opposition to YHVH) or ("CAN" TAINT = offspring of opposition to YHVH)...  The Children of YHVH...

ALL things are to come into (SPIRITUAL) submission to YHVH, and that which OPPOSES YHVH, ...Within the submission to YHVH, are all these ELIMINATED BY that submission... (i.e. -- "killed")  Not only the matured/purposed [adult] oppositions, ...but the offspring [children] of them [unintentioned oppositions to Him] as well...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 12:11:15 AM by willieH »

Offline Nathan

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #93 on: April 29, 2010, 10:04:59 PM »
Hey Willie, you mentioned you haven't read through this thread completely . .. there was some discussion concerning the validity of the original author of the thread after which we sort of hijacked it . . .sorry.

Offline jfraysse

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2010, 04:37:14 AM »
Do the rules prevent a mod from making insulting comments to the posters? 

It's not a insult if someone comes on a site questioning your beliefs then leaves offering no response! Creating conflict among seekers! Your were set up Paul!

I'm suprised at your level of post you did not see this!

Paul
I think that Michelle is just new to all this "Forum Stuff" and probably expected an email response.  Her questions seem sincere to me and I bet she is from an ET background.  You guys have much to offer her in terms of resources.  But labeling her a "Troll" is a bit harsh!

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:
I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!

richardinparadise

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #95 on: June 13, 2010, 12:22:46 AM »
Just wondering if anyone has a link about the genicide in the Bible? I don't seem to be able to find a reason why God said DO NOT KILL and then told them to KILL THEM ALL...including innocent babies & children...I always was told that He was purging the land and the blood line for Chirst or because those nations were the nations sacrificing children to pagan gods (satan), etc...but then God ends up justifying killing children, etc by genicide. And what about "love your enemies and do good to them". Anyways, just a question I've been thinking about...

This is from my book. Hope it helps:

Chapter 14
The Judgments of God

What are we to make of passages in the Bible that characterize God as extremely harsh and judgmental, to the point where the "punishments" appear to far outweigh the crimes? Examples include depictions of "Hell" as a place of torment, God's apparent use of war and genocide in the Old Testament to accomplish His purposes, the Genesis Flood, and so on. Is God really this harsh and judgmental, or were the writers of the Bible mistaken in ascribing these acts of judgment to God? In my view, God's judgments can be extremely harsh and, indeed, they often do outweigh the crimes. The writers of the Bible were correct in ascribing these judgments to God.

In order for human history to play itself out in a context of free will, God has given man the ability to make his own decisions, whether good or evil, for the most part, without coercion on God's part. If rewards and punishments were immediately handed out directly by God, or by some natural law of reciprocity, then man's moral and ethical and spiritual decisions could not possibly be freely made. If every evil act were directly followed by punishment, and every good deed immediately followed by a reward, then the human race would be just like lab rats, and all human actions would be little more than conditioned responses to direct stimuli. God wants man to become inherently good and do good things because he is good, not because he has no other choice. God wants us to learn how to love as God loves, with agape, self-sacrificing love. This would not be possible if rewards were immediately handed out after each act of love. You can see the dilemma that God faces. He wants to reward our good behavior, but at the same time He does not want rewards and punishments to be direct motivators of our actions. Thus, He has placed us into a world that is inherently unfair. The natural consequences of man's sinful behaviors include suffering, war, starvation, disease, and much unhappiness. Sometimes good behavior is rewarded, sometimes not. Sometimes the punishments far exceed the crimes. Sometimes good behavior is punished and bad behavior rewarded. 

For centuries man has wondered why a God of love would allow so much evil and suffering to exist in this world. Well, now you know why. Ultimately good will be rewarded and evil punished, but, in most cases, rewards and punishments must be delayed and not directly and immediately connected with man's acts of obedience or disobedience. God does intervene in human history to affect the outcome of our lives, but He does it in very judicious ways. He intervenes at critical points in history in order to generally "steer" things in the right direction, and there are limits on just how often, or how directly, He intervenes. At one critical point in history He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world to reveal more about God to us and to pay the ultimate price for all of our sins on the Cross of Calvary. At critical points in Old Testament history, God intervened to alter the natural course of human events.

Because God is the original "cause" of everything, we can say that all events in human history are, at the very least, indirectly caused by God. God is completely "sovereign" over His creation in the sense that He caused it all and has the ability to change the course of history at will. Because God brought the universe into being, knowing full well what the outcomes would be, and because He does not directly intervene to eliminate all sin, suffering, natural calamities, starvation, murder, violence, war, and all other forms of evil, then it could be correctly argued that it is God's will for both good and evil to exist. This being the case, then the only way God can be truly loving and just by nature is for the final outcome of human history to be a "good" one. This I believe to be the case.

Historical events must not be judged as "good" or "bad" in and of themselves. Ultimately, all events fit into God's plan of redemption, but in the short term, from our human perspective, these events may be assigned a purpose in our lives by God and the short term outcome may be "good" or "bad" for us depending on how we respond. Most of us have heard the saying in Romans that "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28). Christians who respond correctly to these events will experience a "good" result in their lives, while those who respond incorrectly may experience an adverse result.

It is important to remember that most of the world's tragedies are not directly caused by God, but are a result of random natural processes and man's inhumanity to man. Let's examine, for example, a situation where a parent loses an infant child to an unexpected accident or illness. While it is true that God could have miraculously intervened into human history to prevent the death, we know from experience that He generally does not act in this way. Instead of directly causing or preventing human and natural events, God instead assigns purposes to these events as they occur. The parent who responds in the correct way to the death of the child may be drawn closer to God and family through the experience and be better enabled to comfort others when they also experience loss in their lives. If they respond in the incorrect way, their relationships with God and others may suffer. Sometimes, through acts of grace, God brings about a good result, even when we respond in the wrong way. Potentially there may be numerous short-term "good" or "bad" outcomes, depending on God's purposes and man's responses. In the long term, I believe all outcomes to be "good" because God is ultimately sovereign over His creation, and God is good.
Unlike the infant's death above, however, some catastrophic events, such as the Genesis Flood, were directly caused by the miraculous intervention of God. Can this type of intervention on God's part be justified, given God's loving and forgiving nature? Some may argue that the story was not an actual historical event, or that the details of the event were embellished as a result of the story being transmitted for centuries by oral transmission before being committed to writing. It may be correctly argued, even from the perspective of the literal inerrancy of the Scriptures, that the flood was localized to the Mesopotamian area, where most of the civilized world resided. Whether localized or not, the event was still a major catastrophe. If the Flood were not caused by God's direct intervention, but were only a natural occurrence which God used for His purposes, would that make God any less harsh than a God who directly caused the catastrophe? If God allowed the event to occur without intervening, He would be just as responsible for its occurrence. The important thing to remember is that, unlike natural occurrences, the Genesis Flood, although catastrophic to some, did serve a redemptive purpose. Mankind got a fresh start, and although sin would eventually regain its foothold on mankind in future generations, who knows how much worse things might have been had not God intervened? Although the general pattern of mankind at the time of the flood was evil, there were undoubtedly many "innocents" who died. If God is good, and fully intends to redeem all mankind, then we can assume that those who died in the Flood, both guilty and "innocent" alike, will eventually join with all creation some day in acknowledging Jesus as Savior and Lord.

Another example of this type of intervention on the part of God would be the apparent God-sanctioned genocide in Joshua.  To view this in proper perspective it is important to understand that the harshest judgment that God can inflict upon sinful mankind is to stand back and allow history to take its natural course. Although God's judgments and corrections may seem harsh, they are less harsh than what naturally occurs on a daily basis in human history. When God steps in to alter this natural state of affairs, He is usually performing an act of redemption, as well as of judgment. According to the Bible narrative, after the Exodus, God ordered the Hebrew people to return to the land of Canaan, their ancestral home. The assumption was that they would have to take the land by force of arms. According to Deuteronomy 20:16-18, Moses instructed the Hebrews to completely destroy the people living in the cities of Canaan and not leave anything or any one alive, including the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. According to Moses, this was the command of God. The purpose of the destruction of these peoples was to punish them for their detestable sins and immorality, and to prevent them from teaching the Hebrews to worship false gods and commit the same types of sins.  According to the Book of Joshua, acts of genocide were carried out against some, but not all of those cities.
Proponents of the literal inerrancy of the Scriptures, although perhaps disturbed by the harshness of God's commands in this regard, have no problem accepting the narratives at face value. There are two different schools of thought, among those who hold a more liberal view of the Scriptures, regarding the issue of God-approved genocide in the Bible. The first view is that God never actually commanded the Hebrews to commit these acts of genocide, and that what we are reading in the Scriptures is a record of what the writers thought God wanted, and that they were mistaken. The idea is that God's revelations to us are progressive in nature, culminating in the teachings of Christ, who instructs us to love our enemies, turn the other cheek, and return good for evil. The idea is that the God we have come to know and understand is primarily a God of love, not judgment.
The other school of thought is that although the narratives may not be historically accurate in many of the details, the major thrust and intent of the narratives must be taken seriously. The Bible, although not verbally inerrant in every respect, is, nevertheless, the Holy Spirit-inspired record of man's "genuine" encounters with God. I, myself, subscribe to this view. It is hard for me to believe that the events of the Exodus and the subsequent resettlement of the Land of Canaan, which are so central to the major themes of salvation history, were carried out in direct opposition to the commands or intentions of God. If you believe that the Bible is man's "mostly mistaken" point of view regarding his encounters with God, I wonder how genuine those encounters could actually have been. You leave room for huge latitude with respect to the handling of Christian doctrine and pretty much give yourself license to believe whatever you want. Whenever the Scriptures teach something you don't like, it is easy for you to just dismiss the teaching in favor of other teachings which are more in harmony with your views. The Scriptures cease to be the God-inspired source of authoritative information about God.  On the other hand, if you believe the Scriptures to be man's Holy Spirit-inspired record of genuine encounters with God, and if you believe that this record was believed and attested to by the larger community of faith in which the writers operated, then you have to take very seriously even the teachings which don't easily fit into your theological systems of thought.
If the Old Testament accounts of God-approved genocide during the conquest of Canaan don't fit very well into your views about God and the way He works, then maybe you need to reexamine those views. Far worse catastrophes have occurred in human history than the events surrounding the Exodus and the conquest of the land of Canaan. In addition to natural disasters which take the lives of hundreds of thousands of people every year, millions of people have been killed in acts of genocide throughout the history of mankind. Examples include constant warfare and genocide among various nations in Old Testament and New Testament times, the persecution and torture of Christians by non-Christians, the persecutions and torture of non-Christians by professing Christians of all ages, and in this century, the extermination of six million Jews by the Nazis, the extermination of tens of millions of innocent citizens of Communist Russia, China, Laos, Cambodia, Viet Nam, and the list goes on. In our current day, as we speak, millions of people in third world countries are dying from starvation, disease, war and genocide.  And God does not intervene to prevent any of this from happening.
No matter how you look at it, God is directly or indirectly responsible for all that occurs in human history. If God were to intervene today and instantly destroy the millions of evil people in the world, would we angrily accuse Him of genocide, or would we rejoice and praise Him instead?

The truth is that God takes no pleasure in judging sin or in allowing it to occur without restraint in our present age. But in order for mankind to develop good qualities in a context of freewill, without direct coercion on God's part, He must for a period of time allow sin to run its full course. The judgments of God which take the form of direct intervention into our individual and corporate human lives, are not nearly as harsh as the judgments which we humans inflict upon ourselves.

On the cross of Calvary, Jesus, took upon Himself the penalty for the sins of all mankind and achieved total victory over sin and death. From God's perspective in eternity, the ultimate restoration of all humanity to right relationship with Himself, has already occurred. From our human perspective within the context of our limitations of space and time, we still have a long ways to go, and many life lessons must be learned along the way. The various forms of suffering and adversity which we experience in this present age, are important and necessary for our development, but cannot be even remotely compared with the wonderful things God has in store for all mankind one day.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2010, 04:02:09 AM »
I see your point Paul/Pierac, but I was personally just looking at it as much of a discussion amongst other members as much as "responding" to Michelle - whether she came back around or not.  I have been watching her profile, and she was only on about 20 minutes and hasn't been back.   Seems a few folks were interested in the topic, but I agree, it is one that OBVIOUSLY can bring dissension.  :dontknow:  

Michelle, you obviously have been back (good) and were just trying to understand a difficult, complicated topic.  My apologies, for my part.  Blessings, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Pierac

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #97 on: June 14, 2010, 04:08:22 AM »
Do the rules prevent a mod from making insulting comments to the posters? 

It's not a insult if someone comes on a site questioning your beliefs then leaves offering no response! Creating conflict among seekers! Your were set up Paul!

I'm surprised at your level of post you did not see this!

Paul
I think that Michelle is just new to all this "Forum Stuff" and probably expected an email response.  Her questions seem sincere to me and I bet she is from an ET background.  You guys have much to offer her in terms of resources.  But labeling her a "Troll" is a bit harsh!

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

She was not labeled a Troll! But a possible Troll due to the question and ZERO REPLY to such a question. By talking about God killing…innocent babies & children and then disappearing only leads to the conclusion... that the term POSSIBLE Troll would not out of line at the time and even now… if I did not know you knew her. Starting a topic about God killing Children and then leaving is not cool for a moderator to deal with in my book! Still only 3 post from her to date after all this?  I guess you know her better than me!  I can't read minds over the net and do not know everyone who comes here, my job is to keep the peace and weed out potential problems before they happen. Christians new to UR do not really need to read about about God killing…innocent babies & children only to find the author missing in action.  :2c:

Not knowing her and her being missing in action even to this day! Sent up
BIG red flags!  I'm glad to know she is not one!




Paul

michelle7mickey

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2010, 04:13:26 AM »
 (Paul): I am truly hurt by your forum response! I never used a forum before this post and did not even know how they worked...until just a little while ago...I thought I was supposed to receive email responses to my post. I did not know I had to re-look it up on the forum to read the responses.. Now that I am learning how to read my replies I am NOT interested in posting again for quite some time! (Although thanks to ALL of you who gave KIND responses and heard my heart...but, I have found another Universalist forum which is loving and accepting of people's hard questions...)

I have just started on a new journey of faith a couple months ago with universalism and becasue they had such a good twist on the non-reality of Hell,  I thought maybe they would on this too. I never said what I personally believed or did not believe. I just asked a question that someone asked me that got me thinking! that's all. Why am I not able to ask a simple question without being judged so harshly??

This is not an example of the Jesus I know and trust.
 :HeartThrob:

michelle7mickey

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Re: Michelle
« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2010, 04:38:05 AM »
As said...I did not know how to use a forum...I still barely do...I did not know I even posted in the wrong section as I've never even done this before! :dontknow:

John, never knew me... never judged me when I posted this on another universalist forum. He was loving and understanding of my question which caused me to put my time (which I don't have much of) and energy more concentrated over there! ....that is...whenever I can steal away some time from my crazy busy life....in which he never judged me for either (for not being able to spend much time on a forum, that is)...plus he even has given me tips on how to use a forum at that!... :Sparkletooth:I think Tentmakers would be greatly blessed to have John on as a Moderator as that is the type of spirit that attracts non-belivers and seeking Christians who have hard questions that they may be afraid to ask...People need to feel safe to ask the hard questions. ..and what if I WAS an unbeliever or a TROLL? Would Jesus treat me that way?? No! ...but the Pharisees would...