Author Topic: Michelle  (Read 7121 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

michelle7mickey

  • Guest
Michelle
« on: April 23, 2010, 03:35:22 AM »
Just wondering if anyone has a link about the genicide in the Bible? I don't seem to be able to find a reason why God said DO NOT KILL and then told them to KILL THEM ALL...including innocent babies & children...I always was told that He was purging the land and the blood line for Chirst or because those nations were the nations sacrificing children to pagan gods (satan), etc...but then God ends up justifying killing children, etc by genicide. And what about "love your enemies and do good to them". Anyways, just a question I've been thinking about...
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 03:39:55 AM by michelle7mickey »

Offline peacemaker

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1043
Re: Michelle
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 07:39:54 AM »
Don't believe everything you hear?

Offline Raggedy Anne

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 726
  • Gender: Female
Re: Michelle
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2010, 06:18:26 AM »
Welcome M7M -

I have sent a private message to your "Inbox" with a brief answer to your question. 
Hope it helps in some way.  If you have not found your PM INBOX, look around, you'll find it.

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9051
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Michelle
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 07:08:26 AM »
Hi Michelle.  It can be a tough topic with multiple opinions.  Please seek your answers within the Words of God, asking Him for understanding and for the Spirit to reveal the truth to you.  Others may be able to help, but please be very careful to make sure mine or anyone else's words line up with Spirit-revelation within the scriptures.

I will tell you right up front that I don't claim to know or understand everything there is to know about this question you've asked.  I will share a little information I've found that I felt led to share with you, as I think it's at least related to this huge topic.  This is not a completely direct and total "answer" to your question, but may help with perspective and help you explore it further in a scripturally sound manner. I'm still sort of working through some of these similar issues myself.  I believe though that the answers don't lie in our carnal thinking or vain imaginations - it's a spiritual issue.  Our thoughts and wills need to be fit to the scriptures and God's leading, not try to fit the scriptures to our own wills and understanding.  Others may have some sound-doctrinal input.  In the meantime, I encourage you to pray, and seek within the scriptures.

----------

Is.26:9 ....when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (Kingdom age)
 
Notice in the verse above that it is when God judges that the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.  ....the more the judgment, the more righteousness.  There are judgements that we observe in the everyday sowing and reaping that are intrinsic to creation. Judgement is part of the natural course of the creation....when judgement is swift and righteousness guaranteed, godly and ungodly will "learn righteousness".

Much of the world has missed altogether the scriptural purpose of God's judgement. Many have assumed it is what God has to do to "get back" at people who have been bad so that they "get what's coming to them." We are told sometimes that this is a balancing of the scales and therefore God is obligated by His own justice to do this. The question, however, is not what our human minds conceive in this area, but rather what the scripture says. The scripture paints a much more powerful  and hopeful vision of God's judgements and their purpose.
 
Man seems to have a need for punishment to exist for punishments sake. Man's concept of judgement and justice is rooted in the carnal mind and its need to get even, or have revenge. This is contrasted with God who only uses punishment to create a Godly benefit that extends far beyond only satisfying the carnal lust for vengeance. Man has a problem with that idea because of our own selfishness and pride that wants to seek revenge and make those who hurt us to hurt as well. This is unscriptural of course.
 
Interestingly, the scripture refers many times to the combination of Righteousness, Judgement and Equity.  This shows us that the purpose of Judgement is to bring about Righteousness (through purging people from evil ways) and Equity (from balancing the scales of Justice through restoration).
 
2Cor. 3:9   For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
 
Interesting in the above verses that Condemnation (judgment) is glorious. Why? Because God uses it to bring about righteousness.  It is better, however, to become righteous through Grace (the ministration of righteousness). Either way, judgement is through Christ and Grace is through Christ and both are for the express purpose of bringing us to Christ, who is our righteousness!
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 07:37:14 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9051
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Michelle
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 07:22:28 AM »
It was no accident I found this post by PaulH that I remembered from the past.  I feel sure he won't care if I use it.  It stuck in my memory at the time.  There's probably so many layers and facets to this whole topic, but I believe Paul's following observations are very worthwhile to take into consideration;

"The Old Testament words that seem cruel and harsh and unforgiving actions of a supreme being is actually a depiction through actual events of what God will do to the evil children, fortresses, cultures, kingdoms and civilizations within each of us.

Within all of those things within us reside things that appear to do no harm, but we are deceived."
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9051
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Michelle
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2010, 12:58:59 PM »
Some thoughts I have are, that I think maybe we forget sometimes how temporary this life is.  The scriptures say it's but a vapor, lasts for a little while, then it's gone.  Also, that it's like the grass of the fields, here for a little while then burned up.

God's plans and view of things is of ages and ages.  Mankind's (as a whole) experience of evil is temporary, for a larger purpose than just mine or yours individual lives.  He is working all things according to the counsel of His will.  He has a plan that involves life, death, and redemption.

He rejoices in the death of the saints.  And if the scriptures do indeed teach ultimate reconciliation of all things as we say they do, then even those that die without Him, following a period of corrective discipline, will be brought into His presence and arms of mercy.  So when this life that's just a vapor is used for His overall purposes, even if that includes what we perceive as tragedy and death, it's a good, no perfect thing.  Because God wills that all men be saved and be reconciled back to the Father.  How He goes about it is His business.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: Michelle
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 05:43:27 PM »
Just wondering if anyone has a link about the genicide in the Bible? I don't seem to be able to find a reason why God said DO NOT KILL and then told them to KILL THEM ALL...including innocent babies & children...I always was told that He was purging the land and the blood line for Chirst or because those nations were the nations sacrificing children to pagan gods (satan), etc...but then God ends up justifying killing children, etc by genicide. And what about "love your enemies and do good to them". Anyways, just a question I've been thinking about...

Under the Old Testament everything was according to LAW and we can see by what you have written what the law brings, death to all. But thanks be to God Jesus sacrifice changed all that, now there is life and salvation through grace.

CHB

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8429
  • Gender: Female
Re: Michelle
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 05:52:29 PM »
 :cloud9: Good posts, guys..... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Michelle
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2010, 12:43:17 AM »
There are several easy-out answers that often people will revert to.  One is, God's ways are not our ways . . ."  Another is "does the pot question the potter why he fashioned the pot the way he did?. . ." 

For me it's one of those things that obviously are pretty clear they happened.  And in our limited understanding of things, we may measure life in this realm with too high of an expectation.  Scripture does state that God used people in this realm as examples for us also in this realm to realize and live by.  There are types and shadows on every level of this life that point to his nature and the fact that people were to be removed from this realm by God's instruction "appears" to be a terrible thing.  But on the other hand . .where did they go?  Did they go to a lower realm than this one? 

I think a lot of it is we measure love in this realm by using the scale of how much we value life on this realm.  Yet, this realm isn't the final destination for any of us.  So we're in essence trying to use a temporary tool to measure an infinant Truth.   I'm not saying we're not to value life here at all, I'm just wondering if we're using the wrong tool to approach God's nature sometimes.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Michelle
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2010, 12:54:44 AM »
No offense, but we have been religiously trained to think that we cannot understand what God would or wouldn't do as a  God of Love, that is how some UR people can say Child rape is something God desires because "we can't understand it".  

I don't think people realize it is the same argument that Hyper Calvinists use to say that God is righteous for creating a percentage of human beings with the intent to fry them forever. What makes the "we can't understand" argument good doctrine for the UR perspective and not for the Calvinists?  It don't,  for any perspective,  because it is poor reasoning in the first place.

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Michelle
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2010, 01:59:15 AM »
Hey Paul, I love how you're wording your differences.  I appreciate the non-condeming way you're going about it.  Not just here, but I've been following your remarks on other posts as well.  And as such . . . what is your take on why God would instruct the warriors of one nation to kill the babies of another?

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Michelle
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2010, 06:42:11 AM »

Nathan, that is such a HUGE undertaking to explain.

The Lord chose the lineage of Christ Jesus.

The Lord defended and offended this lineage.

EVERYTHING that has, is, and is to come centers on Christ Jesus.

Let him who has an ear...

There is nothing in the past, present or future that will still the march of God.

Those that Joshua slain were a hindrance to absolute truth.

Let him who has an ear...


Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Michelle
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2010, 12:16:27 AM »
Hey Paul, I love how you're wording your differences.  I appreciate the non-condeming way you're going about it.  Not just here, but I've been following your remarks on other posts as well.  And as such . . . what is your take on why God would instruct the warriors of one nation to kill the babies of another?

Mainly I have come to see that such a literal thing is not really something God did to human beings walking the earth.

The bibical language is a way to express what God does within us through real events that happen.



Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Michelle
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2010, 04:52:58 PM »
For me, I know to the natural mind it sounds morbid, but I think for us to think these things did "not" happen literally, would be then saying that truth is reveal through fictional metaphor, even though we know God uses natural things to reveal spiritual truths, how can truth come from something not true?

And are we to also think that God "would" have his own Son murdered for our redemption, but yet, that he would not have his chosen people to kill enemies of them and God to advance his kingdom and purposes just because "my" expectations of these matters isn't adding up?

This is why I wonder if we're not using the wrong tools of measurement when we're contemplating these matters.  Meaning that our emphasis on thriving in this realm, be it something we're to cherish, but at the same time knowing that just because one dies here does not mean it is the end result of all things. 

And it also reinforces the importance of walking in the spirit rather than reasoning in the flesh.  My flesh has a way of putting itself above the nature of God in such a subtle way that I'm not always aware that it's happening in me.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Michelle
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2010, 05:44:47 PM »
For me, I know to the natural mind it sounds morbid, but I think for us to think these things did "not" happen literally, would be then saying that truth is reveal through fictional metaphor, even though we know God uses natural things to reveal spiritual truths, how can truth come from something not true?

Well, then Jesus could not convey a truth through a parable.

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8429
  • Gender: Female
Re: Michelle
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2010, 05:59:44 PM »
For me, I know to the natural mind it sounds morbid, but I think for us to think these things did "not" happen literally, would be then saying that truth is reveal through fictional metaphor, even though we know God uses natural things to reveal spiritual truths, how can truth come from something not true?

And are we to also think that God "would" have his own Son murdered for our redemption, but yet, that he would not have his chosen people to kill enemies of them and God to advance his kingdom and purposes just because "my" expectations of these matters isn't adding up?

This is why I wonder if we're not using the wrong tools of measurement when we're contemplating these matters.  Meaning that our emphasis on thriving in this realm, be it something we're to cherish, but at the same time knowing that just because one dies here does not mean it is the end result of all things. 

And it also reinforces the importance of walking in the spirit rather than reasoning in the flesh.  My flesh has a way of putting itself above the nature of God in such a subtle way that I'm not always aware that it's happening in me.

 :cloud9: I personally look at the same way. He's God and He can do whatever He wants. This realm is not our home to begin with.
My  :2c:........Blessings......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Michelle
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2010, 06:27:43 PM »

 :cloud9: I personally look at the same way. He's God and He can do whatever He wants. This realm is not our home to begin with.
My  :2c:........Blessings......


I know many people who say that.  Hyper calvinists are among them.   Universalism is indeed the attempt to understand what God will or won't do.   In our hearts we know that it is possible to know that is why when we break the chains of fear, we let it out.


Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Michelle
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2010, 06:49:40 PM »
Don't know what a hyper Calvinist is.  And I guess I never looked at Universalism as something that is trying to understand the infinate nature of God.  I just thought it was something that enables me to "accept" what has been done, and realize what's been done has affected the entire human race, regardless of the mind of man.

In fact, for me, it's somewhat the opposite in that to accept that the entire world is saved regardless as to whether or not there must be a conscious decision to accept Christ in order for the finished works of Christ to go into affect is actually saying the infinite work that was done is beyond the comprehension of the limited understanding of my mind.  To those who've been able to grasp it, for me, are the same that were given a revelation of that truth, rather than come to it by natural reasoning.

It's when we embrace our personal conclusions that we find ourselves in offense to one another.  I think universalism is our attempt at labeling this spiritual concept so that one "can" understand it to the best of one's ability, but the implications of this principle of ultimate reconciliation go far beyond the abilities of what our natural minds can comprehend on the matter. 

If my mind ever came to the full understanding of the entirety of the nature of God through my own reasoning, it would then cause me to question the validity of God's infinate nature in the first place.  Grace is one of the most powerful words in our vocabulary.  It's not by knowledge of God or his principles of the kingdom that we are saved . .but it's by his grace.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Michelle
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2010, 06:57:34 PM »

I am just making the point concerning the use of an idea to promote what someone believes.

Hyper Calvinists are those who believe God is God and he can do whatever he wants.

So therefore our objection to the idea that God created a portion of mankind to fry in hell forever in order to advance his kingdom and purposes is moot.

Just because someones expectations do not add up to that does not mean it is not true.

Universalism promotes the idea that God would not do such a thing to some of creation whether anyone likes it or not.



Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8429
  • Gender: Female
Re: Michelle
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2010, 09:13:25 PM »
 :cloud9: I don't know what a hyper Calvinist is, either. I've never studied all the fragments of the "ists" and "isms" out there.

I personally have no doubt that the OT is an accurate record of what He did in dealing with Israel's enemies. I've always believed it and my investigation into the Bible codes comfirms the letter accuracy of the Word itself.

Mt. Sinai was a wedding joining God and Israel and that meant the enemies were coming against GOD and His "bride". A man that loves his wife would likely fight someone attacking his wife, so why wouldn't God?

Aside from that, from my perspective we came here knowing beforehand what our "assignment" was to walk out in this realm (before the veil of forgetfulness came upon us, ie. the carnal mind), and I think they are no exception to that.

From the vantage point of eternity that we have in the Spirit, it was the working out of the great plan of God and everyone has a part in that. Blessings....
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 09:25:10 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Michelle
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2010, 09:44:39 PM »
A man that loves his wife would likely fight someone attacking his wife, so why wouldn't God?

Sure, but that is not the implication.  The implication seems to be that if the attacker has children, you go and kill them too.



Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Michelle
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2010, 09:58:36 PM »


Another message that we can find in the old testament language is that our actions do not only affect us personally.

A fathers deeds can reap disaster onto his children or perhaps even affect the country in which he lives in.  I am not sure we can necessaily determine in every case what that might be exactly, but I think the issue is to be aware that our actions matter and to live ones life in the pursuit of righteousness due to that.   





Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Michelle
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2010, 10:36:28 PM »
As I see it . . . the reason for removing the children is a picture of completeness.  It wasn't enough to just cutting the tree down so-to-speak, but they were to uproot the poison all together.  The biggest problem Israel had with their enemies was not so much the threat of being overtaken . . .all though that was a degree of concern as well.  But in God's eyes, the concern was that Israel would allow their idols to mix in with their worship of him.  That was always a problem with Israel right up to Babylonian captivity.

There isn't much mention of it after that.  Even though they found themselves imploding later on.  But again, the original thought for killing the children of the enemy was to see that in our lives as well, when we have been given full authority, the expectation is that we not walk as though we have only partial authority.  Remove it all, better yet, allow God to remove all of the Gentile nations of thought, attitude and desires from within.

To hone in on just the physical aspect is to miss the spiritual principle all together.

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8429
  • Gender: Female
Re: Michelle
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2010, 10:43:24 PM »
 :cloud9: That's the way I see it too, Nathan..... :thumbsup: Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Michelle
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2010, 11:39:46 PM »


To hone in on just the physical aspect is to miss the spiritual principle all together.


Exactly, that is why I do not focus upon it being a physically literal event, but a picture of what we can see spiritually within us.